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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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If this is true, wouldn't the whole "boy's club" thing that keeps getting repeated do more harm then any silly shirt?
Porcile
Member
Once again, this is seems like another internet/social media generated trivial distraction from real feminist/sexist issues. Once again, making it's own worst enemy in many ways. The day the world can stop being so offended about breasts is the day we'll actually make some progress in the world.
Dude Abides
Banned
Indeed. If only nobody cared about this shirt, there'd be no rape.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I think we've made hella progress with sexism over the last century. I guess it could be up for debate. Let's put it to a vote.
radios shipping overview
Member
What may be unreasonable to you may be a first step in a positive direction for somebody else. Yes, this kind of discussion is used for clickbait, and a critical comment on Twitter can cause a storm in a hurry. But the more issues like this like this are brought up and talked about, the more people will be aware of the kinds of environments they create for others.
I have no problem with Dr. Taylor himself. I'm sad for him that he didn't see this coming, and I admire his response to the situation. He genuinely had no idea of the trouble he caused before the fact. I would hope that he can serve as an example for others in similar positions to be more aware of themselves.
Gamergate is a weird fantasy world? Thank goodness, I thought it was a real problem !
The shirt is part of that. It reflects a mindset that for many looks unwelcoming. I don't wear shirts like this or this in a professional setting because I know it'd make some feel uncomfortable.
The guy is probably awesome and not deserving the shit storm, but that doesn't mean issues like these shouldn't be discussed and that we shouldn't question how a person dressed like that wasn't told by anyone that it might give the wrong impression. Free speech doesn't mean you are free from consequences.
LightofRohan
Member
What really? This is how you guys do things here?
I dont think too many women have been forced to publicly apologize for wearing a tacky shirt.
I'm sorry if this all offends you. He apologized. Should we not stop until he gets fired?
GuessMyUserName
Member
Why is that, and how did you asses that?
This has nothing to do with being "sex-negative" and I would advise you not to conflate the issues of sexuality and sexism. Your assertion of what his shirt entails is not a definitive one and stating that it isn't "objectively dangerous" is silly. Of course it isn't dangerous, it's a shirt. Unless you suffocate via some weird wardrobe malfunction a shirt isn't really dangerous. It is that the shirt (as I've tried to explain multiple times before) is part of a larger narrative of discrimination within the STEM field. Also as a bit of a non sequitur, how would you suggest that people who aren't on the same continent as him "go up to him and state as much"?
You state a lot of things as fact, remember the NASA Mohawk guy?
Look at him rocking that dress code. There are expectations on people in Matt Taylor's position and if people find issue with the way he behaves they should be allowed to express that. Dismissing legitimate concerns as "Internet outrage machine" is not beneficial to a proper discussion.
How odd that you state that my assertion is not definitive in the exact same sentence where call me out for saying the reverse - well, to more precisely I said both. I don't care how many times you say the shirt is more than a shirt, I still do not see anything wrong with the shirt itself that leads it into those problematic connections. It's a shirt with ladies on it, nothing outright suggestive about women or their place in science. Feel free to harp on it a few more times, but I just disagree with you clearly.
I don't think I need to tell you how to voice your opinion without monsterizing a man who wore a shirt you don't find appropriate.
... So you have a guy with a mohawk? Cool? The fact that his mohawk made him so noteworthy in the first place is sad, demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about.
And I have not dismissed anybody - only the complete explosion of matters. I have made it very clear that if anyone has legitimate issues with the shirt they are more than free to bring that up and talk about it. Discussion and understanding is healthy, listening to what people take issue with, and in return responding to those concerns and understanding if they might not apply. What actually happened was a volcano of hate being thrown at the man for a small slip which some people might be unamused by, but some people might enjoy.
All I'm saying people need a hell of a lot more to learn on civility. I said as much how I welcome the criticism being brought forth, just in a significantly more levelheaded manner that actually promotes further understanding on both sides. It is also important to understand that criticism is not absolute.
Sorry if my post right now and before is a bit lacking right now, but I gotta go out right now~
Porcile
Member
Well yeah, but there's still massive gaps in equality across the world in regards to equal pay, opportunity, basic amenities, childbirth, education, rights to vote etc.The endless merry-go round of arguing about the depiction of sexuality doesn't really solve many of these issues.
Denton
Member
You are speaking for yourself here, I assume.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Yea...that's totally what happens.
I'm not calling for his firing, and I don't think anyone here that dislikes the shirt's message is clamoring for his head either. Rather, we're arguing with people, like you, who say this shirt is no big deal or shouldn't be part of a discussion about STEM gender equality.
Please do any kind of research about gamergate, and you'll see, yes that's totally what happens.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Most of us are pretty cool with the guy himself. He apologized, he seemed sincere, good for him. Those of us who are arguing are arguing with the people going "I can't believe he even apologized! what a pussy PC culture!"
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Everytime eh. Yea, no hyperbole spoken.
ESA would probably have apologized for him
Herpes Reasons
Banned
She said EVERYTIME. I.E. Hyperbole.
MurkyZebra2417
Member
Shitstorm over wrong T-Shirt: 922 posts
First landing on a small comet millions of miles away: 900 posts.
First landing on a small comet millions of miles away: 900 posts.
Be a woman on the internet and say something that upsets the status quo. Listen to any woman that writes for tech, pop culture, or anything else. Death and rape threats are such the norm that they "get used to it" in order to stay online and public.
Shitstorm over wrong T-Shirt: 922 posts
First landing on a small comet millions of miles away: 900 posts.
One's controversial and the other isn't.
I'm not discussing why he cried, but that he cried at all is enough for me. Yeah, maybe he's just an emotional guy, but I'm pretty convinced without all that drama he would've just apologised and be done with it, without looking so miserable.
Well, to be fair, that's just more implicit than explicit. But as far as I see it, you sound a bit like there's only legitimate criticism and no piling on happening. It also seems you apply criticisms of "overblown outrage" to legitimate criticisms even if that isn't necessarily the case.
But I might've read you wrong. If so, sorry for that.
I also think your definition of "One person is offended by something == it's offensive" is wrong. Something is offensive if a majority (or a strong minority) of affected people is offended by it.
freenudemacusers
Member
yeah, the comet landing is clearly a hoax.
Derekloffin
Member
Yes, but overly aggressive taking offense to things is in itself creating an offensive environment. We aren't machines, we can't be expected to fit every possible mold for every possible person's value scheme, yet that is exactly the push that is continually happening, that you aren't allowed to offend anyone, no matter how petty or out of the realm of reason that offense is. In fact, it can be quite literally be impossible as often the requirements for one person to not be offended contradict another's. And even if you can resolve that issue, you have the issue you are forcing people into ever tighter and tighter boxes of 'acceptable' behavior.
We live in a society that supposedly is encouraging free expression and free thought, yet we continually attempt to constrain those very things. And yes, this too works both ways, the expression of the idea that you don't like another expression of an idea is itself an expression so the whole thing is a large part of the reason we have this whole problem. It is a balancing act to be sure, I just feel that the balance isn't very good at the moment and is tipping too much to the suppression of expression.
... yes?
Herpes Reasons
Banned
So 'every time'. Or just admit you were being hyperbolic and it simply happens alot. It doesn't happen 'every time'.
Shitstorm over wrong T-Shirt: 922 posts
First landing on a small comet millions of miles away: 900 posts.
Numbers of your posts discussing the landing: 0
I think you didn't finish that first sentence, so I'm not sure what that means.
The shirt is literally using scantily clad women as decorative objects, some people have issues with this. And whether you are aware of this or not, there exists an ongoing discussion about sexism and discrimination in STEM. When someone in the STEM field who is at the centre of a lot of attention does something that some considers inconsiderate towards women (i.e. having them as sex objects) that will feed into the larger narrative of sexism and discrimination in STEM.
How am I doing that? All I have said about Matt Taylor is that he made a mistake and apologised. He handled the situation very well in my opinion. So I honestly have no idea why you are attacking me.
It was to illustrate how having a dress code doesn't prevent people from expressing themselves. And highlighting another member of the scientific community who doesn't confirm to expectations. All this and without any major controversy.
But you are dismissing me when I say that it is about more than the shirt or how someone might find issues with his shirt.
And as for the "volcano of hate", I have only addressed peoples, at time slightly acerbic, criticism.
Yes I agree on the civility bit which I already have discussed at some length earlier.
No criticism isn't absolute but in this instance Matt Taylor seemingly agrees with it.
Funny how freedom of speech works.
"Anti-PC" backlash in a nutshell, where you get more upset at people for taking offense than the offended parties were in the first place.
Nope, every time.
You honestly can't see the irony? Heh.
Maybe it would help to ask what his female co-workers think.
Realistically? Probably not. Most people probably wont even remember that a comet was landed on a year from now. Most likely, anyone upset about this will have moved on to the next thing a week from now. So all in all it probably would've been best to just not acknowledge it.
LightofRohan
Member
Ok. So what do you say we do about this? Is your perfect situation that everyone stops harassing eachother on the internet all together? Well let's start solving it, can we start a petition for people to stop harassing each other? Should we stop getting upset about random crap like tacky shirts and go after the harassers themselves?
Whats the end goal/solution here? Can we stop racism also? I hate that too.
"A solution cannot be done with 100% perfection so it's not worthwhile to do the solution" is what I'm hearing and it makes me sad.
Porcile
Member
I feel if bigger issues of sexism and gender inequality (like I ones I mentioned in another post) were addressed then there'd be a lot less rape in the world. Yes, that does include degrading images of women. However, I think distilling down the idea that rape is entirely about the sexualisation of women in images, detracts from the larger reasons why women are raped all over the world, which is more about an underlying but very expansive misogyny in society. It's a shitty shirt in many ways, but there are other more important and harmful things to get outraged about, and fighting those inequalities will produce much more meaningful results for women in the world.
LightofRohan
Member
No its not. Stop being sad.
cubicle47b
Member
The criticism of the shirt was valid, some people were just assholes about it (shocking, I know). Twitter has become one of the worst sites on the net. Limiting discussion to 140 characters was always a bad idea.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Can you understand at least a little that women or girls checking in on this big universal accomplishment would see this and be upset that it seems science isn't for them?
But he wouldn't have been in a situation where he would've apologised if not for the criticism which spawned the drama.
I have only addressed the relevant criticism towards him whilst discussing this being right or wrong, because I see no need to address anything else. Also there is a difference between multiple people having an issue and piling on. Yes there probably were people going too far, but from what I can tell the reaction to Rose's perfectly fine if slightly harsh (calling an asshole is not an act of extreme vilification) criticism have been multitudes worse than the reaction to Taylor's shirt.
But it's offensive to that one person. My point was that a lot of people had the inferred suggestion that if it wasn't offensive to the majority it wasn't offensive. That is just no true.
I can't, no. Try as I might.
No I get how how people could be offended but the controversy seems like it goes way beyond what it actually should.
Arjen
Member
If people are exited about science they would be exited about the accomplishment.
I'm an engineer, I know it's not a friendly work environment for women, and it should change, I'd love to see more women in the field.
But this is the worst fucking timing to do it. Piling on some dude who just had a huge achievement, everyone using this moment for their agenda should be fucking ashamed of themselves.
Okay how about this, if he'd worn a shirt with *insert stereotype that is offensive to a specific subset of people which whom you can identify with* and people of *specific subset* got upset. Would you understand that?
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