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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist

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LightofRohan

LightofRohan

Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Can you understand at least a little that women or girls checking in on this big universal accomplishment would see this and be upset that it seems science isn't for them?
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Nope.

I have a lot of strong females in my life, some of them programmers and engineers. They would just shake their head for the guy wearing such a dumb tacky shirt, like I did as well.

I don't feel that an entire gender can be disuaded this easily.

I do think the guy should be called out for being so tacky. But to think this has real world implications and require a public apology after such an accomplishment is absolutely pathetic and embarassing.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
It's so frustrating to see so much terrible reasoning, awful, awful logic and ridiculous stubbornness about an issue so painfully obvious to anyone willing to look for it. There's no better demonstration for why it's still a problem and will remain a problem going forward for some time.

Many of you don't even know enough to be embarrassed, and that's depressing.
 
K

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
berzeli said:
Okay how about this, if he'd worn a shirt with *insert stereotype that is offensive to a specific subset of people which whom you can identify with* and people of *specific subset* got upset. Would you understand that?
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Nope, I still wouldn't give a shit about his clothes.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Can you understand at least a little that women or girls checking in on this big universal accomplishment would see this and be upset that it seems science isn't for them?
Click to expand...

You'd have to question if they were really that interested in science to begin with. I don't know much about a potential scientists mindset, but I'd imagine if you were truly interested and passionate about the sciences, you'd want to be in it and fight for a better future.
 
B

berzeli

Banned
Darknessbear said:
I have a lot of strong females in my life, some of them programmers and engineers. They would just shake their head for the guy wearing such a dumb tacky shirt, like I did as well.
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Please do not suggest that it is weak to criticise someone, or that the people who find this problematic are weak.

I don't feel that an entire gender can be disuaded this easily.
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Do you recognise that the shirt isn't the only issue facing women in STEM and that discussing the shirt as a part of a larger narrative isn't just some folly? The shirt is a symptom of what people find problematic with STEM culture.

I do think the guy should be called out for being so tacky. But to think this has real world implications and require a public apology after such an accomplishment is absolutely pathetic and embarassing.
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Why is it pathetic and embarrassing, Matt Taylor handled the situation very well in my opinion. And apart from the apology there haven't been any major real world implications with regards to ESA as far as I know.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
KHarvey16 said:
Clearly.
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There's inequalities at all levels of employment, but that's not really stopped me or any of my female friends who are passionate about their desired fields. Sometimes you have to carve your own place in the world and a try to build a better future, even if it means having to deal with a lot bullshit.
 
LightofRohan

LightofRohan

Member
KHarvey16 said:
It's so frustrating to see so much terrible reasoning, awful, awful logic and ridiculous stubbornness about an issue so painfully obvious to anyone willing to look for it. There's no better demonstration for why it's still a problem and will remain a problem going forward for some time.

Many of you don't even know enough to be embarrassed, and that's depressing.
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"Why isnt everyone as offended/upset about this as I am? They must be too dumb to understand"

Explain yourself, quit the superiority bullshit. Its pathetic.
 
L

Liu Kang Baking A Pie

Member
Porcile said:
There's inequalities at all levels of employment, but that's not really stopped me or any of my female friends who are passionate about their desired fields. Sometimes you have to carve your own place in the world and a try to build a better future, even if it means having to deal with a lot bullshit.
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Seems like it'd be easier if we just didn't do stupid things. And if we do, we own it, just like this guy has.
 
J

Josh7289

Member
Who cares? If he was female with sexually suggestive images of men on her shirt I wouldn't care either.

It's tacky but that's about it. It's not like he's someone who's always facing the public after all.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
Porcile said:
There's inequalities at all levels of employment, but that's not really stopped me or any of my female friends who are passionate about their desired fields. Sometimes you have to carve your own place in the world and a try to build a better future, even if it means having to deal with a lot bullshit.
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And no one should complain about it? This is the shitty reasoning I'm talking about.

Darknessbear said:
"Why isnt everyone as offended/upset about this as I am? They must be too dumb to understand"

Explain yourself, quit the superiority bullshit. Its pathetic.
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I wouldn't really mind if you weren't upset or offended as long as you could comprehend the argument. You aren't even grasping it, and that makes me sad because I feel like society at large contains more people like that. Like the shirt, you and your arguments are a representation of the larger issue and it deserves speaking out against.
 
I

Irminsul

Member
berzeli said:
But he wouldn't have been in a situation where he would've apologised if not for the criticism which spawned the drama.
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That doesn't mean every reaction is justified with his first action.

But it's offensive to that one person. My point was that a lot of people had the inferred suggestion that if it wasn't offensive to the majority it wasn't offensive. That is just no true.
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Maybe it's just semantics, but I think differently on that. Something being offensive is a concept within a group or a society. You don't necessarily need a majority for that, but I do have a problem with a minority of "one person". I don't want to take any actions on the most easily offended person imaginable.
 
LightofRohan

LightofRohan

Member
KHarvey16 said:
And no one should complain about it? This is the shitty reasoning I'm talking about.



I wouldn't really mind if you weren't upset or offended as long as you could comprehend the argument. You aren't even grasping it, and that makes me sad because I feel like society at large contains more people like that. Like the shirt, you and your arguments are a representation of the larger issue and it deserves speaking out against.
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Then explain, quit being all sly and superior. Every time you post its the same shit, calling someone else out but never backing up anything. I see that a lot from "your side" on gaf, just constantly saying, "nobody understands, you are so daft! Makes me sad you cant comprehend what I am not saying".

Saying I am part of what is wrong with society and not explaining. That's why I never talk about this shit on gaf, it's always the same.
 
R

RedShift

Member
KHarvey16 said:
It's so frustrating to see so much terrible reasoning, awful, awful logic and ridiculous stubbornness about an issue so painfully obvious to anyone willing to look for it. There's no better demonstration for why it's still a problem and will remain a problem going forward for some time.

Many of you don't even know enough to be embarrassed, and that's depressing.
Click to expand...

Sorry we're not all as brilliant and aware as you are :(
 
G

Gentleman Jack

Member
Darknessbear said:
But to think this has real world implications and require a public apology after such an accomplishment is absolutely pathetic and embarassing.
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The achievements of no one person immunizes them from criticism, and the 'real world implications' amounted to a public apology, which is the absolute smallest and most civilized thing any child is capable off, not some grave injustice visited upon him or anyone else.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
Darknessbear said:
Then explain, quit being all sly and superior. Every time you post its the same shit, calling someone else out but never backing up anything. I see that a lot from "your side" on gaf, just constantly saying, "nobody understands, you are so daft! Makes me sad you cant comprehend what I am not saying".
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It's been said over and over and over. Read what mumei and charlequin and others, including me, have been saying previously. I don't really know if it's productive to keep telling you to move over three inches as you continue to beat your head against the same hard spot on the wall. You aren't listening.
 
K

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
KHarvey16 said:
It's been said over and over and over. Read what mumei and charlequin and others, including me, have been saying previously. I don't really know if it's productive to keep telling you to move over three inches as you continue to beat your head against the same hard spot on the wall. You aren't listening.
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Then stop addressing people.
 
B

berzeli

Banned
Irminsul said:
That doesn't mean every reaction is justified with his first action.
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No of course not, but you cant separate the drama from the criticism since the drama was caused by the criticism and say that he would've apologised without the drama. And I would like to state that the threats and harassment toward Rose should be included when you are discussing the drama. This wasn't some one sided assault.

Maybe it's just semantics, but I think differently on that. Something being offensive is a concept within a group or a society. You don't necessarily need a majority for that, but I do have a problem with a minority of "one person". I don't want to take any actions on the most easily offended person imaginable.
Click to expand...

It is entirely a semantics discussion about what makes something being offensive i.e. someone being offended by it. Very often in these discussion people suggest since it's not an issue for them it is not an issue at all. And thus furthering the marginalisation of the party involved.
 
M

Mindwipe

Member
richiek said:
Eveleth's been receiving death threats because she dared criticize the shirt.
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Both sides of an argument can be fuckwits.

It's a pig ugly shirt, but the notion it's sexist or objectifying is so stupid it makes my head spin, and the Twitter reaction is embarrassing.

And then, unsurprisingly, the fuckwits appeared to make everything even worse with threats.

Can we not just lock all of these people in a giant room somewhere where the rest of us can get on with thinking landing a probe on a comet is cool?
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
Darknessbear said:
I believe it was a female friend who is an artist that made him this dumb shirt for his birthday.

Someone still should have been like, "hey... Youre about to go on. Change the ugly shirt." Which makes sense for any newscast.
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Is anyone blaming her for making it for him to wear it which he did
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
KHarvey16 said:
And no one should complain about it? This is the shitty reasoning I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

Complaining but then walking away from it, isn't helping anyone's cause though. You have to try and make a difference. No progress has ever been made without sacrifice. It fucking sucks there has to be that sacrifice, but that's nature of living in a society at the present instead of looking back from the future with hindsight. The least helpful thing any potential and passionate female scientist (or any field of employment) can do is walk away.
 
L

Liu Kang Baking A Pie

Member
"You're taking time and energy away from solving real problems" complainers would make more sense if they didn't stay around wasting their time being angry about this. When are we going to solve those real problems?
 
P

PsychBat!

Banned
Maninthemirror said:
Is anyone blaming her for making it for him to wear it which he did
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Nope.

EDIT:
hgghh17s4h.jpg

This was posted earlier in the thread.
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
Yrael said:
This is a terribly flawed op-ed - sexism is absolutely still a major problem in academic science. These writers all point out the major flaws of the NY piece:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/11/01/yay-sexism-in-science-is-over/

http://galileospendulum.org/2014/11/01/no-academic-science-hasnt-overcome-sexism/

http://www.emilywillinghamphd.com/2014/11/academic-science-is-sexist-we-do-have.html

Furthermore, men are still perceived as being more competent than their female peers, which leads to applicants being more likely to be rejected simply for having a feminine name. Sexual harassment is not only still a problem in astronomy, but in much of scientific fieldwork in general.

I do think the T-shirt worn by the senior scientist was wholly inappropriate (though I don't condone attacking his character for it), as was the language he used describing the Philae lander mission during the livestream ("she's sexy but not easy"), so I'm glad that he apologised. This is a conversation worth having; it is entirely possible to recognise the magnificent achievement of the Rosetta team while acknowledging that there remain problems with gender inequality here on earth. KHarvey16 is right on the money here:
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I didn't realise the authors had misinterpreted their data, those are some good critical articles especially the Emily Willingham one. Thank you for the reading :)
 
O

Opto

Banned
The Technomancer said:
Okay, put this another way. I just came back from working with young kids, girls and boys, this morning. Do you think it would have been appropriate for me to wear that shirt?
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Of course, freedom of speech! Anyone telling you not to wear it would be a progressive fascist
 
F

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
This thread is depressing.

I wonder if he wore a shirt with Sambo all over it if the same people would be saying "black people just need to deal with it."
 
R

railGUN

Banned
The Technomancer said:
Okay, put this another way. I just came back from working with young kids, girls and boys, this morning. Do you think it would have been appropriate for me to wear that shirt?
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I wouldn't take to twitter about it. I'm not defending this guys poor fashion sense, I'm laughing (but also saddened) at the "magnitude" of it, especially in consideration to why he was being interviewed. I have a more provocative tattoo than that shirt.
 
J

jakonovski

Member
FlyinJ said:
This thread is depressing.

I wonder if he wore a shirt with Simba all over it if the same people would be saying "black people just need to deal with it."
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I have no idea what Simba is apart from a character in Lion King, but I suspect you're trying to escalate things by equating a gaffe to racism.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
Porcile said:
Complaining but then walking away from it, isn't helping anyone's cause though. You have to try and make a difference. No progress has ever been made without sacrifice. It fucking sucks there has to be that sacrifice, but that's nature of living in a society at the present instead of looking back from the future with hindsight. The least helpful thing any potential and passionate female scientist (or any field of employment) can do is walk away.
Click to expand...

Complaining and bringing attention to it is doing something about it. And more would be done if not for close minded, resistant-to-change-or-the-acknowledging-of-problems types like you.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
The Technomancer said:
Okay, put this another way. I just came back from working with young kids, girls and boys, this morning. Do you think it would have been appropriate for me to wear that shirt?
Click to expand...

I would say it's no more or less appropriate than wearing a shirt which just said FUCK on it, in big, bold capital letters or one with a picture of a smiley Jesus on it. In other words. have some common sense, they're kids.
 
RiccochetJ

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
The Technomancer said:
Okay, put this another way. I just came back from working with young kids, girls and boys, this morning. Do you think it would have been appropriate for me to wear that shirt?
Click to expand...

No. However, I also wouldn't also take to twitter and call you an asshole, belittle what you're doing, write condescending articles about you, and then when you tearfully apologize, say that we can put this all behind us without even giving a hint that I may have been a little harsh over how I acted.
 
A

AlucardGV

Banned
so people are bulling him because his t-shirt? nice way to show your acceptance and good will

meanwhile that shirt is sold out, lol
 
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