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[TheAdmiester]

No. Why change what got them where they are today? What they're doing now is hardly irresponsible.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

I mean, you really kind of answer your own question here. You are the type of person who holds a woman hostage because you are the type of person who would blow up a bank. The fact that your first action in the game is stealing from a bank establishes what type of person yoou are and which misdeeds you'd likely engage in. When Michael is taken hostage, he tries to de-escelate the situation through words, which establishes the type of person he is. Trevor, on the other hand, establishes his character by murdering the guard without any hesitation, which effectively establishes his character to the player from the first moment he is introduced. I don't exactly know what it is you're looking for that will further establish or enhance the characters of the game. Delving into their troubled childhoods through flashback sequences? Creating a function that allows the player to explore the character's psyche or inner monologue? Because the characters are effectively established within the first scene of the game, so I don't understand what you really find to be lacking.

Okay. They're effectively established. But they're horrible characters! lol

EDIT:

This isn't meant to be a lazy response, it's just that I've already outlined my points in replies to other posters.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

I think they're good for what they are.

But they get old, because they more you repeat playthroughs, the magic is lost.

The magic of videogames I keep rambling about is the malleability of the experience. And this is something Rockstar are the masters of, currently. Even Hideo Kojima has praised them for this, and for good reason.



A friend of mine would have you shot for that. lol

What I meant to say was their branching narratives, as I don't know any other dev that has attempted a story that tells itself through player action.

Yes the individual experiences each player can have with a game is great I love that kinda stuff, but if I personally enjoyed and got more out of Uncharted 2's ultra linear 10 hr campaign then GTAV's epic amazingly intricate open world is that a problem? Is Uncharted 2 any worse than GTA because it lacks that randomness? To you maybe, as you said on repeat playthrough you lose enjoyment, but replay value is arbitrary.

You don't need to "do that" to my words. I'm criticising the current state of the industry, and if you want to meaningfully engage what i've said then you ought to do so. I'm tired of being constantly disenfranchised in these discussions because "it's just an opinion" and "someone else might think differently", as if i'm not making it clear that this is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of objectively lower narrative and artistic standards across the board that permit the vacuous hollow that permeates the vast majority of the most influencing titles in the industry, who want to make us think they have a big ingenious story, but who fail so often and so consistently that they may as well be betraying their own expectations of themselves.



So games that try to be meaningful are forever destined to be low budget, independent games which have little to no impact on the industry and how it behaves culturally and in respect to its most visible agents?

Narrative and artistic standards are not objective, you can't tell me that they are.

Edit: who set these standards and decided they were the absolute requirements? Why must they be followed?

 

[SegaShack]

So you are basically advocating censorship?

 

[Retrocore9]

I think GTA is a satire on all aspects of modern culture. The torture sequence was pretty rough but I think it illustrated pretty clearly how horrifying it was. I doubt anyone who has played the game will now read a waterboarding article without thinking of it. It's also a good character moment to show how twisted that torturer really was.

The game's complete freedom allows us to do things as the characters we would never do in real life and in some cases you may even feel bad about them. I'm not sure if that is the artist's intention but I think any game that makes us think twice about our decisions and actions is a good one.

As for the sexism in the game, I definitely see how that is an issue and maybe in a future installment we can see a female protagonist. After the three male leads of GTA 5 a female lead character will give it a fresh experience for sure and maybe address those complaints.

 

[FeenixRising]

Making a game revolving around sociopath protagonists and sociopath characters and not displaying terrible human behavior would actually be irresponsible. The worse thing a GTA has done is San Andreas sorta promoting gang lifestyles and being part of the hood.

You gotta be fuckin shitting me.....

 

[Spaced Harrier]

I really can't stand this argument.

It's called GTA 5. Its more like 8.

You know what you were getting into, what are you talking about?

Still, you'd think a company with that much brand power would find themselves obligated to exercise that influence more responsibly.

No, of course I wouldn't. This is their brand, this is why they exist.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

So you are basically advocating censorship?

I think he's just saying that he considers the writing to be of poor quality.

 

[Krejlooc]

Look, I get it. I'm not here to shit on people's opinions. GTAV, as I already said, is a monster of a game. Very well made and designed.

I'm not gonna get on a soapbox and call anyone who doesn't agree with me on all my points a "tasteless, unenlightened peasant". I'm not that self absorbed.

I just saw something that I thought deserved constructive criticism or, at least, would make for some fun discussion, even if it's pure fluffy dreams and conjecture as to what games may or may not become.

You're not getting it. This has nothing to do with a perceived slight against gta. I'm asking, again, why you aren't dabbling in game design when you have such strong feelings about design? Making a game isn't an impossible undertaking, even as an amateur.

Look, I have strong feelings about positional tracking that run counter to conventional wisdom. Instead of telling others that they should be responsible for furthering my ideals, I took the onus on myself. The beauty of today's development environment is that anybody can create. There are tools and resources out there to make your vision reality. If you think what you preach is important, and will elevate the medium, and is socially responsible, you owe it to the medium to explore it.

Don't sit around wishing others would evoke your vision, pursue it yourself. THAT elevates the medium, the ability for consumers to also be creators, to take auteurial control out of the hands of a few.

 

[KillaKalz347]

Honestly, they're making games. If you can't handle what they're portraying, don't play it. Simple as that. I for one want them to make a game like manhunt on next gen so we can really see what they can do on a violence level.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Hell no. R* & their corrupting influence has entertained me for years. Keep it up!

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

Yes the individual experiences each player can have with a game is great I love that kinda stuff, but if I personally enjoyed and got more out of Uncharted 2's ultra linear 10 hr campaign then GTAV's epic amazingly intricate open world is that a problem? Is Uncharted 2 any worse than GTA because it lacks that randomness? To you maybe, as you said on repeat playthrough you lose enjoyment, but replay value is arbitrary.



Narrative and artistic standards are not objective, you can't tell me that they are.

Edit: who set these standards and decided they were the absolute requirements? Why must they be followed?

So what is your stance on this?

Are you playing devil's advocate to demonstrate the subjectivity of all this?

Or do you actually prefer sordid, hard to swallow characters?

And yes, I agree. GTAV doesn't make Uncharted 2 objectively bad, just like [Goodie Two Shoes character] doesn't make Trevor objectively bad (from an artistic, creative standpoint, at least).

You're not getting it. This has nothing to do with a perceived slight against gta. I'm asking, again, why you aren't dabbling in game design when you have such strong feelings about design? Making a game isn't an impossible undertaking, even as an amateur.

Look, I have strong feelings about positional tracking that run counter to conventional wisdom. Instead of telling others that they should be responsible for furthering my ideals, I took the onus on myself. The beauty of today's development environment is that anybody can create. There are tools and resources out there to make your vision reality. If you think what you preach is important, and will elevate the medium, and is socially responsible, you owe it to the medium to explore it.

Don't sit around wishing others would evoke your vision, pursue it yourself. THAT elevates the medium, the ability for consumers to also be creators, to take auteurial control out of the hands of a few.

Oh... Thanks for the nudge. I appreciate it...

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

Fuckin' DP again. Sorry.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

So what is your stance on this?

Are you playing devil's advocate to demonstrate the subjectivity of all this?

Or do you actually prefer sordid, hard to swallow characters?

And yes, I agree. GTAV doesn't make Uncharted 2 objectively bad, just like [Goodie Two Shoes character] doesn't make Trevor objectively bad (from an artistic, creative standpoint, at least).

I think a lot of people do, hence the popularity of gangster/mob movies. But other than that yes, I think it's all just subjective whether something is meaningful to someone or not. I just don't like people saying that games have to "x" or have to be "y" when in reality we are on a big ass rock spinning in space, so quite frankly games can be what they want to be, and if you like or dislike said game it doesn't really matter. Basically whatever floats your boat.

 

[Lethe82]

You're not getting it. This has nothing to do with a perceived slight against gta. I'm asking, again, why you aren't dabbling in game design when you have such strong feelings about design? Making a game isn't an impossible undertaking, even as an amateur.

Look, I have strong feelings about positional tracking that run counter to conventional wisdom. Instead of telling others that they should be responsible for furthering my ideals, I took the onus on myself. The beauty of today's development environment is that anybody can create. There are tools and resources out there to make your vision reality. If you think what you preach is important, and will elevate the medium, and is socially responsible, you owe it to the medium to explore it.

Don't sit around wishing others would evoke your vision, pursue it yourself. THAT elevates the medium, the ability for consumers to also be creators, to take authorial control out of the hands of a few.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but thankyou for the motivation.

 

[levious]

Making a game revolving around sociopath protagonists and sociopath characters and not displaying terrible human behavior would actually be irresponsible. The worse thing a GTA has done is San Andreas sorta promoting gang lifestyles and being part of the hood.

How in the world is that worse or different than promoting mafia lifestyles in the other games?

 

[DrPreston]

All the characters you play as in these games are psychopaths. Their behavior is supposed to disgust you, even if you enjoy the chaos you cause along the way. It seems disingenuous for you to revel in the bank robbing and murder, but draw the line at the character's perceived misogyny.

 

[Dabanton]

I loved that the characters in GTA had no redeeming features at all,maybe Franklin but Michael and Trevor were hilariously ruthless and selfish.

Imo R* has no need to be responsible when their audience are adults. If parents are buying their kids GTA games they need to reassess their parenting.

The game is pitched a dark parody of America, I think it does it well.

 

[John Kowalski]

Narrative and artistic standards are not objective, you can't tell me that they are.

Edit: who set these standards and decided they were the absolute requirements? Why must they be followed?

Yes i can. There are thousands of years of literature and literary studies that are literally designed to teach people how to analyse and how to create stories that have more of this, or more of that, which are more complex or more straightforward, which are more effective or intentionally difficult to grasp. All of these studies have granted us knowledge about how narrative design works, what elements constitute its essentials and how one may use them to one's own ends and how to better use them, perhaps equipping some of us with the tools to make the best works of literature, to touch more people, or to enlighten the audience, or in some other way proving its artistic skill so fruitful in its use that it created something far greater than a mere book. Same with every other medium. Art isn't inherently subjective, there is objectivity to art. It's the objectivity in its design, in its content, in its formal constructs, in its efficiency as a vehicle.

 

[Fracas]

Aside from a few nitpicks, I really enjoyed the story. Michael and Franklin are fantastic characters.

You're not the hero in this game.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

Or do you actually prefer sordid, hard to swallow characters?

I really don't understand this sentiment. Walter White, Michael Corleone, and Scarface are all very sordid and hard to swallow characters, and they are great characters for it. If they weren't sordid or hard to swallow, they would be considerably less compelling in film.

The next GTA should be about playing badass cops and kicking the shit out of scumbags and cartels etc. There could also be an "undercover cop" part where you infiltrate a gang or the mafia. So many ideas...

So, Sleeping Dogs?

 

[legend166]

It's funny what murder simulators people will defend and what murder simulators people will throw under the bus.

*note: I'm not using murder simulators as an entirely derogatory term here.

 

[Oneself]

The next GTA should be about playing badass cops and kicking the shit out of scumbags and cartels etc. There could also be an "undercover cop" part where you infiltrate a gang or the mafia. So many ideas...

 

[Enzom21]

Making a game revolving around sociopath protagonists and sociopath characters and not displaying terrible human behavior would actually be irresponsible. The worse thing a GTA has done is San Andreas sorta promoting gang lifestyles and being part of the hood.

So out of all of the horrible things that have been in the GTA series, you find promoting gang lifestyle in San Andreas to be the worst? Interesting...

 

[Madness]

No. This is something people just don't get. It's easy to be a media critic unaffiliated with anything and another to be a games studio spending hundreds of millions trying to make a successful game.

Rockstar should only focus on making the games they want, the way they want. It's a business. They're in it for maximum profit, not social change.

Why would Rockstar need to change anything? They got like 30 million sales, made easily over 1-2 billion dollars etc.

 

[Jarate]

They are making the games they want to make. If you dont find them enjoyable then dont play them. If you want to critique their style, then thats fine, but they dont have to do anything or have any responsibility to do anything

Also, some incredible art features characters that are terrible people, murderers, sociopaths, and such. Not to imply that GTA is incredible art, but having mass murderers be the main character isnt bad at all. People create characters, they dont have to be morally good, they have to be characters.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

I think a lot of people do, hence the popularity of gangster/mob movies. But other than that yes, I think it's all just subjective whether something is meaningful to someone or not. I just don't like people saying that games have to "x" or have to be "y" when in reality we are on a big ass rock spinning in space, so quite frankly games can be what they want to be, and if you like or dislike said game it doesn't really matter. Basically whatever floats your boat.

But does that argument negate the purpose of this thread?

Like, it's okay to defend what you like. What's not okay is to come out swinging against a dissenting opinion, shouting "CENSORSHIP!!" and "DEAL WITH MY TASTES" as a counter.

I admit the title was a little sensational and hot-button but a quick skim over my posts and it's clear I'm not trying to omit anyone's murder fantasie-- err .. taste.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Or do you actually prefer sordid, hard to swallow characters?

They're the only characters that would work in GTA. These aren't Bioware or Bethesda games where you choose if you want to play a good or bad guy. You're bad. That's the theme of the series. They need to portray the characters as being terrible people.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

They're the only characters that would work in GTA. These aren't Bioware or Bethesda games where you choose if you want to play a good or bad guy. You're bad. That's the theme of the series. They need to portray the characters as being terrible people.

Nico wasn't terrible. Max Payne wasn't terrible. An open world game with freedoms doesn't have to carry the stigma of "human nature".

 

[firehawk12]

I still think Trevor is an unredeemable piece of shit of a human being, and I hate that the game romanticizes his life and glorifies him.

Which in and of itself might have been fine if they were actually trying to say something meaningful with his character, like American society is terrible and engenders psychopaths, or an adherence to ultra-masculinity leads to extremely broken men. But there's no message whatsoever.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Yes i can. There are thousands of years of literature and literary studies that are literally designed to teach people how to analyse and how to create stories that have more of this, or more of that, which are more complex or more straightforward, which are more effective or intentionally difficult to grasp. All of these studies have granted us knowledge about how narrative design works, what elements constitute its essentials and how one may use them to one's own ends. Same with every other medium. Art isn't inherently subjective, there is objectivity to art. It's the objectivity in its design, in its content, in its formal constructs, in its efficiency as a vehicle.

I'm not saying there is art that most people would prefer to experience, but to say that automatically makes it better is silly.

But does that argument negate the purpose of this thread?

Like, it's okay to defend what you like. What's not okay is to come out swinging against a dissenting opinion, shouting "CENSORSHIP!!" and "DEAL WITH MY TASTES" as a counter.

I admit the title was a little sensational and hot-button but a quick skim over my posts and it's clear I'm not trying to omit anyone's murder fantasie-- err .. taste.

I think it's totally fine to call out what you wanna call out, but expect disagreements as you would. My answer to your question is play what you feel most comfortable playing, as I don't think there is a right answer to video games.

 

[tassletine]

I don't think it's that they should be more responsible, what you're talking about is a symptom of the writing just not being very good. It's funny at times, but the humour misses as much as it hits.
It's mostly overwrought, shouty and quite preachy in parts so tends to grate after a while. It bears the traits of someone who has done a lot of cocaine, which might not be far from the truth.

GTA has the hallmarks of someone thinking that they are great at their job (because the games are hits) and blindly carrying on rather than progressing much (although it has generally got better). Games aren't as heavily scrutinised as other mediums as this is the result. Dan Houser copies TV shows and Films without really understanding what fully rounded characters sound like.

The writing isn't bad, but it should be much better given how brilliant the world is.
The only other part of GTA V I would criticise is that they should have put more effort into the biggest draw of the game -- causing mayhem.

Bully trumps it in that regard. Less energy should have been put into the details of the world and more into the reactions of pedestrians and what happens when they are annoyed, scared, etc. It would be good to see street fist fights or just other reactions when you destroy things rather than just running away. Laughing, taking pictures, panicing, feinting etc would have been nice. More comedy in the open world and less in the cutscenes.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

Nico wasn't terrible. Max Payne wasn't terrible. An open world game with freedoms doesn't have to carry the stigma of "human nature".

Max Payne was terrible, that's the biggest issue he struggles with as a character.

Edit: Oh, do you mean he wasn't a sociopath within the context of the game? I mean, he acknowledges that killing is wrong and he's done a lot of it, but he still continues to do it anyway.

 

[John Kowalski]

I'm not saying there is art that most people would prefer to experience, but to say that automatically makes it better is silly.

Why?

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Aside from a few nitpicks, I really enjoyed the story. Michael and Franklin are fantastic characters.

You're not the hero in this game.

Right, you're not even anti-hero's. All 3 are high level scum trying to make a buck dishonestly. Mostly by killing & robbing banks. Their enemies are also ruthless dirtbags. It's why you play GTA. It's time to be scarface, and take over the scene. Love it.

I do think if they make something like GTA IV again with a nuanced character, they need to design the game mechanics around that character. Penalilze the player for killing ol' grandma with a baseball bat. Not sure how that would work, but hey just an idea. In 5, they are all AAA sociopaths, Could easily see all of them murder an old lady for 20 bucks, then give it to their kids for lunch money. Niko, was hard to see that at all, but the game let me do it, so eh.

 

[firehawk12]

The writing isn't bad, but it should be much better given how brilliant the world is.

Which is hilarious when people like Adam Sessler say that GTAV is the Great Expectations of our time.

 

[old manatee]

Rockstar should be more responsible with their janky ports.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

You're not getting it. This has nothing to do with a perceived slight against gta. I'm asking, again, why you aren't dabbling in game design when you have such strong feelings about design? Making a game isn't an impossible undertaking, even as an amateur.

Sorry, but what? Going off of your premise, absolutely no critique on any medium would be allowed unless it came from people already in the indstry.

Unless I'm reading that incorrectly, that's absolutely bonkers.

 

[3DimensionalAperture]

Such artistic vision from GTA, indeed.


I'd argue that they're business execs trying to appeal to the focus-tested groups and lowest common denominator to make the most $$$ possible, rather than artists, but maybe I'm too cynical...

Come on.

"it's not art because I don't like it"

I really hope people don't take this kind of bullshit seriously.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Why?

Because I think i'm correct in saying you think GTA in terms of story telling is trite yes? Yet it had the largest media launch ever and I think is the highest selling game ever. Now despite you considering it not objectively good "art", it seems that the vast majority did. I don't think GTA is exactly the goldmine of story telling either, but I'm fine with others thinking it is.

 

[Krejlooc]

absolutely no critique on any medium would be allowed unless it came from people already in the indstry.

That is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

Max Payne was terrible, that's the biggest issue he struggles with as a character.

Edit: Oh, do you mean he wasn't a sociopath within the context of the game? I mean, he acknowledges that killing is wrong and he's done a lot of it, but he still continues to do it anyway.

Yeah, Max was mostly sane. He was a damaged, conflicted, broken character. But he was self aware, and had a clear wish to make good with his demons, or at least he was honestly self-deprecating through his sarcasm and bitterness towards his actions... In that sense I found him much better written than any of the three in GTAV.

That is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

Sent you a PM. Check it.

 

[EGM1966]

Should they? Not as such. I'd argue they shouldnt be pushed or feel obligated to be more mature with their immature "mature" games if they don't want to.

Woulf I prefer them to? Sure, I'd probably play them if they were actually like Geat or Goodfellas vs fan fiction broad humour homages.

I feel I outgrew the tone of GTA years ago: but if they wanna go that route they should continue to do so.

BTW I'm reading your comments as not having issue with the violence, etc if it was handled maturely vs immaturely: if you're saying they should be PG13 then I disagree completely on that angle.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

I actually think they are. There's this weird trend right now that if you have evil characters, sociopaths, or racists or whatever it's a reflection of the game makers or the industry. Which is always baffling to me. That's like looking at a mob movie and asking the film makers to portray the guys nicer and not coked up sexist dirt bags.

When if you have the narrative through the lens of bad people you can actually tell different types of stories that should be explored.

Now the GTA V world wasn't for me. It was so cynical in every facet I didn't enjoy it and put it down. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

That is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

OK then, I've obviously had too many whiskeys tonight. Ignoring my post is probably smart.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Nico wasn't terrible. Max Payne wasn't terrible. An open world game with freedoms doesn't have to carry the stigma of "human nature".

Niko killed, smuggled, and sold people before he moved to Liberty City. He tried to change things, but realized that those things were all he was really good at doing. Max is a different case because it's a completely different character in a completely different universe.

Nah, whaaaaaaaaaat

You're going to have to explain what you mean. My point is simply that GTA portrays everyone as being a terrible person. It doesn't matter their gender, race or sexuality. Everyone is portrayed terribly in GTA. No one comes out looking good in that universe.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

I really don't understand this sentiment. Walter White, Michael Corleone, and Scarface are all very sordid and hard to swallow characters, and they are great characters for it. If they weren't sordid or hard to swallow, they would be considerably less compelling in film.

So, Sleeping Dogs?

All those characters had credible humanizing features. Not redeeming features, but had a shred of humanity that allowed me to relate to them. Or at least, they were the carefully crafted embodiment of hubris, greed, desperation, etc...

GTAV characters (in my opinion) weren't carefully crafted at all, they were "in your face" satirical caricatures.

I personally liked Nico more because of this reasoning.

Niko killed, smuggled, and sold people before he moved to Liberty City. He tried to change things, but realized that those things were all he was really good at doing. Max is a different case because it's a completely different character in a completely different universe.

See above.

 

[CosmicQueso]

So games that try to be meaningful are forever destined to be low budget, independent games which have little to no impact on the industry and how it behaves culturally and in respect to its most visible agents?

We are in a market that is seeing fewer "AAA" releases being made as the market shifts away from traditional, $60 console development.

A third fewer packaged, disc based games have been released over the past 12 months versus the year prior.

So while I agree that more variety in theme, tone, etc would be welcome in the big budget space, it's getting harder to see that happening. Almost all of the innovation in thought and mechanics are coming from smaller budget games.

It's not something to be lamented, it's something to be celebrated. And to say that low budget, independent games like Limbo, Braid, heck even Minecraft fits this definition, have not been influential on the industry is far from correct.

And really, you're looking to GTA to be a vanguard of this evolution of the medium? Seriously?

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Rockstar have always been pretty hardcore, its the biker gang of the gaming industry... just let them be, stop messing with them =)!

 

[N30RYU]

Anyone else feel this way?

Not me.