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[daniels]

Lol at FFVll being one of the greatest games of all time. And delusional memories aren't the point of this topic, sorry.

Does it really hurt that much that people even today love FF7?
You really cant even grasp that people play that game today and still think it is one of the best? Played it again 2014 psn version and had more fun with it than with aaa rpg releases this year.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

After. WSAD + Mouselook is John Romero's 'invention'.
Just WSAD was used by few RPG in the past too.

The DOS version of Bram Stroker's Dracula used WASD + Mouselook in 1993. Although, you couldn't look up.

Regardless, I'm not sure if the shift from arrow keys to WASD is as big an innovation as Mario 64's camera controls, especially given how almost no games use Quake's variant on it anymore. Quake is an important game, but for completely different reasons.

EDIT:

Did Quake even have WASD + mouselook by default? Now that I think of it, you had to alter the config file to get that scheme. Romero had nothing to do with it, and you could get the exact same control scheme in, say, Marathon, years before Quake came out.

 

[DrunkDan]

Of the two choices I would go with Mario, although I think GTA3 also had a huge impact too.

 

[squidyj]

can I pick neither?

 

[Chindogg]

Does it really hurt that much that people even today love FF7?
You really cant even grasp that people play that game today and still think it is one of the best? Played it again 2014 psn version and had more fun with it than with aaa rpg releases this year.

Once again. This isn't what game you like better. This is which game made a larger impact to the industry.

Of the two choices I would go with Mario, although I think GTA3 also had a huge impact too.

This is the modern misnomer that many in the FF7 camp seem to forget.

FF7 didn't launch the global phenomena for Playstation like many think it did, Resident Evil started that trend. FF7 followed and pushed it forward, but really Metal Gear Solid and GTA3 made Playstation what it was. FF7 was one step in the many steps Sony took to make Playstation great.

Meanwhile Mario 64 pretty much defined how to move in a 3D space with an analog control and free floating camera system. Many from Rockstar admit that GTA 3 would not exist in his current form without Mario 64. Meanwhile FF7 is just another really good game.

Sorry but it's the truth. FF7 was a really nice cog in the machine that was Sony. Mario 64 pretty much wrote the rules on 3D cameras and controls.

 

[Clairvoyance]

Does it really hurt that much that people even today love FF7?
You really cant even grasp that people play that game today and still think it is one of the best? Played it again 2014 psn version and had more fun with it than with aaa rpg releases this year.

I'm happy for you.

 

[daniels]

Once again. This isn't what game you like better. This is which game made a larger impact to the industry.

dude i wasnt even talking to you freaking read the quote -_-

 

[LCGeek]

The DOS version of Bram Stroker's Dracula used WASD + Mouselook in 1993. Although, you couldn't look up.

Regardless, I'm not sure if the shift from arrow keys to WASD is as big an innovation as Mario 64's camera controls, especially given how almost no games use Quake's variant on it anymore. Quake is an important game, but for completely different reasons.

EDIT:

Did Quake even have WASD + mouselook by default? Now that I think of it, you had to alter the config file to do that.

Doesn't matter.

I was introduced to WASD by someone having me alter the setup menu from dos for doom games, grew up with lan types since my teens. Wasn't hard back that and made more sense than arrow keys. WASD isn't exotic to me system shock and descent required far more dexterity.

 

[Frillen]

Games like FF7 come out all the time. 3D platformers are dead. So FF7.

Good thing Mario 64 influenced more than platformers then, which has been mentioned about 5 million times in the thread.

Does it really hurt that much that people even today love FF7?

Well it definitely hurts you seeing Mario 64 being the answer to most people in this thread.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

In a world where FFVII never existed(or never released on PlayStation), however, everything is different. Sony might not even be in the industry right now -- MS might have never even made the attempt.

It's amazing to see people argue that a console that sold over 100 million units was carried on the back of a game that sold 10 million units. The Playstation dominated because it got great games at a much higher rate than the N64. FFVII was one of these games, but it wasn't the linchpin that you're making it out to be.

I said this earlier in the thread, but the only reason this thread is a thing is because a large chunk of GAF happened to have grown up when Playstation was the big thing, and they're coming out to defend that console's representative here. The thread's concept is ludicrous enough as it is, but I can see no other explanation for the amount of people claiming that FFVII created the cinematic, story-driven game, was the first game with FMV cutscenes, or that it single-handedly carried the Playstation to success and shaped the modern-day gaming industry. Or maybe it's just that all the attention it gets in this forum has convinced people who don't know much about that era of gaming that it was an Important Game That Mattered.

Doesn't matter.

I was introduced to WASD by someone having me alter the setup menu from dos for doom games, grew up with lan types since my teens. Wasn't hard back that and made more sense than arrow keys. WASD isn't exotic to me system shock and descent required far more dexterity.

No clue what this has to do with what I said.

Games like FF7 come out all the time. 3D platformers are dead. So FF7.

Even modern Final Fantasy isn't like FFVII.

 

[daniels]

Well it definitely hurts you seeing Mario 64 being the answer to most people in this thread.

It is true that i dont understand it and i also dont understand it why people think every 3d game today until the end of time that controls with a stick has to thank mario 64... yeah i kinda dont get that.
The difference is i dont insult people that say Mario 64 is their favorite game ever..
But i am sure you just pretend to not see the difference.

 

[-MB-]

Sorry, but how am I wrong again? After the N64, Nintendo was in third place (out of three real contenders, since the Dreamcast died young) in two of the next three generations (and I already mentioned the Wii's success).

Edit: And who gives a shit about profit in a discussion about industry impact? My point was that Nintendo went from number one with a bullet to a laughing stock in the console space. Obviously, Sony occupies that shameful spot in the portable realm, but that's neither here nor there.

For one, they weren't undfisputed in the SNES days either, they had a hell of a fight with Sega and it took years for SNES to finally outsell the megadrive.
Secondly, FF7 on it's own is not solely responsible for the downfall of Nintendo at all.
I'd wager that goes more to Sony and the Playstation brand itself. It was outselling N64 well before FF7 even released.

 

[fengshuifever]

Both games are amazing in their own right but it's incredible to see how many people miss the point of the thread and want to talk about which game was better, not which one was more revolutionary.

It doesn't matter what paintjob the game had, it could have had any genre attached to it.
The fact is that even from the design stage, the team wanted to solve the problem of navigating 3d space and having a live camera that effectively followed the players movement.
They just had the benefit of a worldwide recognisable franchise to utilise.
(This has been stated again and again in multiple Miyamoto interviews about SM64)

It's disingenuous to assume this affected only the genre that it encased, it completely changed how every player interacted in a world from a third person perspective.
last I checked, platformers weren't the only genre that operated from a third person perspective.

FF7 is great in it's own regard and again was a gamechanger for not only it's genre for the public's general perception of 'scope' in a game.
but from a design perspective, Mario 64 was much more revolutionary.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

It is true that i dont understand it and i also dont understand it why people think every 3d game today until the end of time that controls with a stick has to thank mario 64... yeah i kinda dont get that.

well when it's been explained ad infinitum and there's been informative videos linked that's kind of on you. to put it bluntly incase you don't want to re-read the whole thread, super mario 64 taught developers interested in pursuing 3D concepts, in one fell swoop, many design principles that are still in place today, which you might take for granted or not notice, because they're ubiquitous, thanks to super mario 64's influence. you could check out the video linked at the top post on the last page, or MatthewMatosis' Mario 64 review, or any Mario 64 analysis on youtube, or just check testimonials made by developers since Mario 64's release, of which there are plenty. here's the most important things mario 64 introduced or iterated and refined greatly upon from my perspective, concepts which went on to help shape 3d gaming in general.
- 3d camera design - the camera will try to intelligently avoid obstacles, turn itself in the direction of the pertinent path through a level, and is not reliant on the player's perspective, allowing a full range of motion at all times totally independent from your view on the action. this is the big one. this is why i can say, yeah, most 3d games, especially action games but in general most 3d games which are played from a 3rd person perspective, owe aspects of their design to mario 64 or games that iterated on mario 64's designs. well that and analog control in general.
- animation and control - mario felt weighty and grounded within the context of the world, and his movements were fluid and intuitive, beyond other comparable games of its era. analog control enabled a larger range of movement options (usable at any time) relative to any other 3d game.
- tutorializing and direction - mario 64 laid the framework for the pseudo open world collection approach to progression seen in many titles today, featuring worlds (segmented through an overarching hub world) that were large and freeform enabling freedom of movement and experimentation but which intelligently guided players toward the goal with little confusion, providing hints and opportunities aplenty to experiment with Mario's moveset and expand your ability.

 

[daniels]

well when it's been explained ad infinitum and there's been informative videos linked that's kind of on you. to put it bluntly incase you don't want to re-read the whole thread, super mario 64 taught developers interested in pursuing 3D concepts, in one fell swoop, many design principles that are still in place today, which you might take for granted or not notice, because they're ubiquitous, thanks to super mario 64's influence. you could check out the video linked at the top post on the last page, or MatthewMatosis' Mario 64 review, or any Mario 64 analysis on youtube, or just check testimonials made by developers since Mario 64's release, of which there are plenty.

I watched pretty much all MatthewMatosis reviews on his channel except last of us
he is pretty spot on (especially his bio infinite review).
But cmon developers constantly say they were inspired by all kinds of games i mean there is even a running joke about "random game is the dark souls of random genre" because every developer and their mother loved dark souls or atleast want to cash in on the hardcore fans, stuff like this doesnt mean anything to me even when said from a developer most of it is just pr or feels like it.

 

[KooopaKid]

BTW, is SM64 the first game to introduce 3D controls relative to the camera?

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I watched pretty much all MatthewMatosis reviews on his channel except last of us
he is pretty spot on (especially his bio infinite review).
But cmon developers constantly say they were inspired by all kinds of games i mean there is even a running joke about "random game is the dark souls of random genre" because every developer and their mother loved dark souls or atleast want to cash in on the hardcore fans, stuff like this doesnt mean anything to me even when said from a developer most of it is just pr or feels like it.

oi, it sounds to me like you just don't want to give 64 an inch in this fight.
i understand your preference and sometimes it's one i echo
if i were to go back and play one of these two games right now it'd be final fantasy 7
but developers have been extolling the virtues of 64's forward thinking design since 64 hit (and these days i'm still seeing developers straight up state, 'yeah, Mario 64 inspired this directly' - like Assassin's Creed for example) and it's incredibly handwavey to attempt to rationalize it as 'oh it's just pr' when the game's influence is apparent to anyone willing to actually apply an analytical perspective.
if half of the games available today followed facets of dark soul's design in ways that would go on to help define and/or refine those respective games and genres, it wouldn't be 'a running joke' or a pr statement, it'd be fact that dark souls inspired these games, wouldn't it? and of course it goes deeper than that with a game like Mario 64 which created a genre, new control types, and new design philosophies.

Both games are amazing in their own right but it's incredible to see how many people miss the point of the thread and want to talk about which game was better, not which one was more revolutionary.

It doesn't matter what paintjob the game had, it could have had any genre attached to it.
The fact is that even from the design stage, the team wanted to solve the problem of navigating 3d space and having a live camera that effectively followed the players movement.
They just had the benefit of a worldwide recognisable franchise to utilise.
(This has been stated again and again in multiple Miyamoto interviews about SM64)

It's disingenuous to assume this affected only the genre that it encased, it completely changed how every player interacted in a world from a third person perspective.
last I checked, platformers weren't the only genre that operated from a third person perspective.

FF7 is great in it's own regard and again was a gamechanger for not only it's genre for the public's general perception of 'scope' in a game.
but from a design perspective, Mario 64 was much more revolutionary.

this is a good summary of the most salient argument offered in this thread.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

BTW, is SM64 the first game to introduce 3D controls relative to the camera?

IIRC, that honor belongs to Alpha Waves released in 1990, though, it was rather obscure. Mario 64 was much, much more high profile.

Mario 64 wasn't perfect, camera issues would plague all 3d titles of that generation, but what it did it did very well for it's day. It really set the mold for third person free roaming platformers.

 

[daniels]

oi, it sounds to me like you just don't want to give 64 an inch in this fight.
i understand your preference and sometimes it's one i echo
if i were to go back and play one of these two games right now it'd be final fantasy 7
but developers have been extolling the virtues of 64's forward thinking design since 64 hit (and these days i'm still seeing developers straight up state, 'yeah, Mario 64 inspired this directly' - like Assassin's Creed for example) and it's incredibly handwavey to attempt to rationalize it as 'oh it's just pr' when the game's influence is apparent to anyone willing to actually apply an analytical perspective.
if half of the games available today followed facets of dark soul's design in ways that would go on to help define and/or refine those respective games and genres, it wouldn't be 'a running joke' or a pr statement, it'd be fact that dark souls inspired these games, wouldn't it? and of course it goes deeper than that with a game like Mario 64 which created a genre, new control types, and new design philosophies.

I think maybe i really have a "dog" in this since FF7 is to this day still my favorite jrpg.
Well i can atleast change my mind this much that i think both games are revolutionary for entirely different reasons but not every revolution in the games industrie is about design or gameplay.
I see now that my "developers throwing around dark souls pr lines" is not a fair comparison to Mario 64 since it pioneered atleast something new and developers are actually using at a real basic level something from Mario and not just talk about it like with most "dark souls like" pr lines.

 

[Neo Dark]

I watched pretty much all MatthewMatosis reviews on his channel except last of us
he is pretty spot on (especially his bio infinite review).
But cmon developers constantly say they were inspired by all kinds of games i mean there is even a running joke about "random game is the dark souls of random genre" because every developer and their mother loved dark souls or atleast want to cash in on the hardcore fans, stuff like this doesnt mean anything to me even when said from a developer most of it is just pr or feels like it.

There's a difference between a joke and developers pointing out certain elements that they were able to do because of a certain game. Super Mario 64 set the template for the industry to use. The analog stick was built for that game and they executed the camera in a way no one else had done before. Seeing this, other developers started using the same idea and making adjustments to it. Software developers are rather lazy half the time. That's why we have libraries. We don't like reinventing the wheel. It's why Java is such a popular language. It's also why you get lawsuits like Apple vs Samsung for little things.

 

[flak57]

IIRC, that honor belongs to Alpha Waves released in 1990, though, it was rather obscure. Mario 64 was much, much more high profile.

First 3D platformer!

 

[Lightning Count]

The real answer is Shenmue

Shenmue innovations

These things had been used individually on smaller games, but never all included in a game with this sense of scale.

Real time weather effects (snow, rain, cloudy etc)
Night/Day cycle
NPC life schedule, meaning shops etc follow real opening times,
Every character has actual fully voiced dialog, even the random pedestrians who don't know anything

 

[TheTux]

Mario 64. Had it bombed, Nintendo probably wouldn't be here today.

Well you may be right but that's not really a good point. FFVII has been very generous to Square and Sony too!

 

[fengshuifever]

First 3D platformer!

No shit, I literally came across this game a couple of days ago when we were looking up our intended studio name.
it looks really interesting.
Is there multiple versions? Cause that gif I thought was from the Amiga ver but I found another vid with music and no camera adjustment screen.

Sorry to throw a bit offtopic here.

 

[KooopaKid]

IIRC, that honor belongs to Alpha Waves released in 1990, though, it was rather obscure. Mario 64 was much, much more high profile.

Mario 64 wasn't perfect, camera issues would plague all 3d titles of that generation, but what it did it did very well for it's day. It really set the mold for third person free roaming platformers.

The controls in Alpha Waves are not relative to the position of the camera. For instance, in SM64, if you press down with the stick, the character will run towards the camera. I believe SM64 was the first game to do that and it's now standard. SM64 didn't set the mold only for 3rd person platformers but third person games in general (Uncharted, Bayonetta, Assassin's Creed, GTA, RDR, Zelda, Mass Effect, Batman Arkham, Dragon Age, Infamous, all use this system).

So yeah SM64 is the most influencial 3rd person 3D game of all time.

 

[fengshuifever]

The controls in Alpha Waves are not relative to the position of the camera. For instance, in SM64, if you press down with the stick, the character will run towards the camera.

BOLDED FOR IMPORTANCE.

I hope with all this discussion people take away this point as being the most important.

We don't think about it nowadays but think of a third person game without relative movement (I can think of a couple) and the importance of that freedom of movement.

I swear I remember reading (and I'm most likely butchering the details) that Lakitu (cameraman) was created as a justification of a 'floating camera' object but in turn made them think about the independence of camera position and relative movement.

 

[flak57]

No shit, I literally came across this game a couple of days ago when we were looking up our intended studio name.
it looks really interesting.
Is there multiple versions? Cause that gif I thought was from the Amiga ver but I found another vid with music and no camera adjustment screen.

Sorry to throw a bit offtopic here.

I believe there's an Amiga, Atari ST, and DOS version. The camera can be toggled (I'm not sure if that's in all versions) According to wikipedia developing the DOS port inspired the porter to make Alone in the Dark, pretty neat

 

[Vazra]

Mario 64.
Cinematics existed before FF7 and the gameplay wasn't innovative.

 

[Akseth]

Mario 64. It redefined 3D-controls and utilized the N64-controller in a way that really sold the system as well.

 

[M°°nblade]

The controls in Alpha Waves are not relative to the position of the camera. For instance, in SM64, if you press down with the stick, the character will run towards the camera. I believe SM64 was the first game to do that and it's now standard. SM64 didn't set the mold only for 3rd person platformers but third person games in general (Uncharted, Bayonetta, Assassin's Creed, GTA, RDR, Zelda, Mass Effect, Batman Arkham, Dragon Age, Infamous, all use this system).

I believe crash bandicoot had camera-relative controls as well. But it didn't have a free camera, just an up/down scrolling one.

Wasn't zelda OoT the first game using the focus?

 

[soulassssns]

SM 64 by a landslide.

 

[KooopaKid]

I believe crash bandicoot had camera-relative controls as well. But it didn't have a free camera, just an up/down scrolling one.

Wasn't zelda OoT the first game using the focus?

Crash Bandicoot only mimicked the Indiana Jones corridor thing with a camera on rails.
Super Mario 64 released before Crash in Japan anyway and was shown as early as Shoshinkai 1995.

 

[Calamari41]

I watched pretty much all MatthewMatosis reviews on his channel except last of us
he is pretty spot on (especially his bio infinite review).
But cmon developers constantly say they were inspired by all kinds of games i mean there is even a running joke about "random game is the dark souls of random genre" because every developer and their mother loved dark souls or atleast want to cash in on the hardcore fans, stuff like this doesnt mean anything to me even when said from a developer most of it is just pr or feels like it.

Dude... straight up: Dark Souls is a direct, direct evolution of Ocarina of Time, which itself is an immediate evolution of Mario 64 (using the same code, even).

The fact that the go-to "let's try to make a game like this one" game of the last 5-6 years is basically a combat-focused Ocarina of Time should tell you why Mario 64 is such an influential game.

 

[10k]

One revolutionized FMV sequences which is a dying technique, one paved the way for character movement and camera movement in a 3D space using an analog stick.

I'll let you decide.

 

[espher]

Reading through the last ten pages of this thread, it feels like some sort of age gate, heh.

I might have posted this in here before (can't remember), but I put FF7 in the same category as WoW and Halo/CoD4 -- more evolutionary/iterative on predecessors in the genre than revolutionary, and decent games, but fondly remembered as it was a first exposure to the genre for many people -- and I'd make the case it had less influence on the industry from a design/marketing/sales perspective than those three (of course, that's not the argument here).

Regarding it 'changing' production values or w/e, here's a list of inflation-adjusted game development costs, for titles w/ costs >USD$50m. In the ten years following FF7, there were five titles with budgets >USD$50m. Two of them were Final Fantasy titles, two of them were Shenmue titles, and the other one was WoW. The other ~30 titles were from Halo on. None of them were non-FF single-player RPGs. Also, I mean, Wiki, and not exchange adjusted, so there could be some others that break $50m.

 

[Calamari41]

Reading through the last ten pages of this thread, it feels like some sort of age gate, heh.

I might have posted this in here before (can't remember), but I put FF7 in the same category as WoW and Halo/CoD4 -- more evolutionary/iterative on predecessors in the genre than revolutionary, and decent games, but fondly remembered as it was a first exposure to the genre for many people -- and I'd make the case it had less influence on the industry from a design/marketing/sales perspective than those three (of course, that's not the argument here).

Regarding it 'changing' production values or w/e, here's a list of inflation-adjusted game development costs, for titles w/ costs >USD$50m. In the ten years following FF7, there were five titles with budgets >USD$50m. Two of them were Final Fantasy titles, two of them were Shenmue titles, and the other one was WoW. The other ~30 titles were from Halo on. None of them were non-FF single-player RPGs. Also, I mean, Wiki, and not exchange adjusted, so there could be some others that break $50m.

Very interesting, thanks for the info. Kind of causes one to discard the argument that Final Fantasy 7 ushered in the modern era of big budget game development. So we're down to "helped Sony continue to sell Playstations" and "had a big marketing budget" as FF7's impacts, I guess.

 

[detrimental]

Mario 64 basically revolutionized true 3D with full 360-degree camera control, in a way where it controlled elegantly like a seamless extension of the mind.

I could only get this far into the thread.

My answer is Mario 64, even though I liked FF7 much more. But I have to ask you... Are you serious right now? M64 camera "controlled elegantly like a seamless extension of the mind."?

Christ, man. This is why gamers are called nerds, and why nobody takes gamers seriously. Such an overtly sensationalist statement with no grounding in reality. FFS...

 

[Calamari41]

I could only get this far into the thread.

My answer is Mario 64, even though I liked FF7 much more. But I have to ask you... Are you serious right now? M64 camera "controlled elegantly like a seamless extension of the mind."?

Christ, man. This is why gamers are called nerds, and why nobody takes gamers seriously. Such an overtly sensationalist statement with no grounding in reality. FFS...

Compared to movement, camera, and control in 3D games before Mario 64, that isn't really all that much of an exaggeration, especially if you actually lived through the transition. It was that big of a change. Someone posted some videos of what it meant to control a 3D action/adventure game before Mario 64. I suggest reminding yourself.

Bubsy 3D

Fade to Black

Bug!

 

[detrimental]

Compared to movement, camera, and control in 3D games before Mario 64, that isn't really all that much of an exaggeration, especially if you actually lived through the transition. It was that big of a change. Someone posted some videos of what it meant to control a 3D action/adventure game before Mario 64. I suggest reminding yourself.

Bubsy 3D

Fade to Black

Bug!

I'm 34. I think I "lived through the transition".

I suggest you remind yourself:

"...controlled elegantly like a seamless extension of the mind". Repeat it to yourself. That's hyperbole overload, and a degree of sensationalism left only to the greatest fanatics in any industry.

When I read things like that, I instantly cringe. And I'm a gamer. Again - no wonder gamers are shouldered into the nerd-corner of society.

The game was amazing; most certainly revolutionary in its field. But that description goes above and beyond, and is nothing more than fanaticism.

 

[Calamari41]

I'm 34. I think I "lived through the transition".

I suggest you remind yourself:

"...controlled elegantly like a seamless extension of the mind". Repeat it to yourself. That's hyperbole overload, and a degree of sensationalism left only to the greatest fanatics in any industry.

When I read things like that, I instantly cringe. And I'm a gamer. Again - no wonder gamers are shouldered into the nerd-corner of society.

The game was amazing; most certainly revolutionary in its field. But that description goes above and beyond, and is nothing more than fanaticism.

I'm sorry that his enthusiasm bothered you so much, I guess. I notice now that it was posted by the great Neiteio, and that is how he operates. He's gets excited about this kind of thing. I guess you can detrimentally call him a nerd if you want? You'd have to call me one too, though, since I agree with the statement. Mario 64 was a game changer to me.

Also, the irony is not lost on me that a 34 year old is calling other people nerds as an insult while browsing and posting on a videogame message board during working hours, in a nearly 1,000 post thread the topic of which is an argument about Mario 64 vs Final Fantasy 7.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

I believe crash bandicoot had camera-relative controls as well. But it didn't have a free camera, just an up/down scrolling one.

Wasn't zelda OoT the first game using the focus?

Crash Bandicoot only mimicked the Indiana Jones corridor thing with a camera on rails.
Super Mario 64 released before Crash in Japan anyway and was shown as early as Shoshinkai 1995.

Also, just for the record, SM64 was released a couple of months before Crash Bandicoot. Not that it matters for the purpose of this thread, though since they were developed with no knowledge of the other's development.

 

[detrimental]

I'm sorry that his enthusiasm bothered you so much, I guess. I notice now that it was posted by the great Neiteio, and that is how he operates. He's gets excited about this kind of thing. I guess you can detrimentally call him a nerd if you want? You'd have to call me one too, though, since I agree with the statement. Mario 64 was a game changer to me.

Also, the irony is not lost on me that a 34 year old is calling other people nerds as an insult while browsing and posting on a videogame message board during working hours, in a nearly 1,000 post thread the topic of which is an argument about Mario 64 vs Final Fantasy 7.

I never called anybody a nerd. Work on your reading comprehension.

 

[Calamari41]

I never called anybody a nerd. Work on your reading comprehension.

"Christ, man. This is why gamers are called nerds, and why nobody takes gamers seriously. Such an overtly sensationalist statement with no grounding in reality. "

"When I read things like that, I instantly cringe. And I'm a gamer. Again - no wonder gamers are shouldered into the nerd-corner of society."

You don't have to literally say the words "Neiteio is a nerd" to call him a nerd. Reading comprehension is actually what allowed me to understand that you're calling him a nerd.

But anyway, do you have anything to add to the conversation taking place here or are you just here to accuse the participants in this Mario 64 vs Final Fantasy 7 discussion of being nerds? Because I don't really think you'll get much disagreement, even from the people you're accusing.

 

[Calamari41]

On the topic of Final Fantasy 7's impact on the cinematic nature of game design going forward, I think that this aspect of the game's legacy is also a bit overstated. It definitely featured extensive FMV cutscenes, which played heavily in the game's marketing and success, but I really don't see them as having truly inspired the way cinematic games operate to this day.

As I've stated before, I see Ocarina of Time and Metal Gear Solid, both released around the same time, as being the true watersheds in cinematic game design. Whereas Final Fantasy 7 would have everything stop, cut to black, and play out a pre-rendered cutscene, both Ocarina of Time and Metal Gear Solid weaved cinematic storytelling into the actual gameplay, and cutscenes were extensions of the gameplay itself. A couple of examples:

Link Leaves Kokiri Forest and Sniper Wolf Shoots Meryl

I'm sure there are better examples in each of these two games, but these were the first two that came to mind and I feel get the point across.

These two scenes are actually shot like a movie is shot. The games both flow directly into these little cutscenes, using the actual game models and backdrops. They are a part of the game itself, rather than something that is cut away to. Compare these two cutscenes to cutscenes in games like Assassin's Creed today, and you will find that they are basically done in the same exact format. These, to me, are the true fathers of "cinematic games."

 

[detrimental]

"Christ, man. This is why gamers are called nerds, and why nobody takes gamers seriously. Such an overtly sensationalist statement with no grounding in reality. "

"When I read things like that, I instantly cringe. And I'm a gamer. Again - no wonder gamers are shouldered into the nerd-corner of society."

You don't have to literally say the words "Neiteio is a nerd" to call him a nerd. Reading comprehension is actually what allowed me to understand that you're calling him a nerd.

But anyway, do you have anything to add to the conversation taking place here or are you just here to accuse the participants in this Mario 64 vs Final Fantasy 7 discussion of being nerds? Because I don't really think you'll get much disagreement, even from the people you're accusing.

If I refer to an overt statistical discrepancy between Muslim terrorism and the rest of religious/demographic terrorism, and make a statement like: "No wonder Muslims are seen as terrorists", am I stating that all Muslims are terrorists? No. I was simply stating that the OP of my quote was propagating the stereotype, I was not inferring that he was definitively a nerd; rather that his hyperbole and sensationalism in his analyses was entirely unnecessary.

You're starting to sound of an age that did not 'witness the transition'.

It's not as if you're adding anything beyond what I was already adding, but to calm your oversensitive nerves:

Mario 64 clearly wins the argument. FF7 set a precedent & standard for development in terms of story, cinematics, etc that wasn't fully realized until long after its release. Conversely, Mario 64 set a standard that could and would be virtually immediately imitated.

If we're to judge it on the basis of simply "blowing your mind", even still, Mario 64 wins. FF7 ended up being a much more immersive experience for me and paid larger dividends, but in terms of being a sentimental "game changer" - yes, there is no doubt, M64 holds that title.

Mario 64, Grand Theft Auto 3, and to some degree MGS2 are all in the category.

EDIT: You might be able to mention Super Mario Brothers on NES, in that group. I went from playing Space Invaders on Atari, to SMB on NES, and that was quite a change. But I was much younger then.

 

[daniels]

Dude... straight up: Dark Souls is a direct, direct evolution of Ocarina of Time, which itself is an immediate evolution of Mario 64 (using the same code, even).

The fact that the go-to "let's try to make a game like this one" game of the last 5-6 years is basically a combat-focused Ocarina of Time should tell you why Mario 64 is such an influential game.

You see this shit ...this freaking shit
I have a problem with how you put things i was ok with backing down a lil and granting that both games are revolutionary for different reasons ....

But then this happens this... shit happens ... hyperpole beyond any reason you are at the point even if developers throw around other games as inspiration and not Mario 64 and never even mention Mario 64 we should still pretend they mean and said Mario 64.... and i thougt i had a "dog" in this, but you are on a complete other level.

 

[Calamari41]

I clearly offended you, detrimental, by inadvertently making you feel as though I were implying that you are too young to have been alive when these games were released. That wasn't my intent, and if I made you feel that way I apologize.

Now please, just stop.

You see this shit ...this freaking shit
I have a problem with how you put things i was ok with backing down a lil and granting that both games are revolutionary for different reasons ....

But then this happens this... shit happens ... hyperpole beyond any reason you are at the point even if developers throw around other games as inspiration and not Mario 64 and never even mention Mario 64 we should still pretend they mean and said Mario 64.... and i thougt i had a "dog" in this, but you are on a complete other level.

I've been more than fair to you in this thread, you know that.

But are you really going to tell me that you don't see how Dark Souls drew mechanical inspiration from Ocarina of Time?

Please watch these two videos before responding:

Ocarina of Time: Iron Knuckle Fight

Dark Souls: Black Knight Fight

Edit: And as for the "dog in the fight" comment, Mario 64 isn't even in my top 5 Mario games list, much less top games of all time. As a game, I probably would rather play FF7 than Mario 64 on a given day.

 

[MagnesD3]

If I refer to an overt statistical discrepancy between Muslim terrorism and the rest of religious/demographic terrorism, and make a statement like: "No wonder Muslims are seen as terrorists", am I stating that all Muslims are terrorists? No.

I was simply stating that the OP of my quote was propagating the stereotype, I was not inferring that he was definitively a nerd; rather that his hyperbole and sensationalism in his analyses was entirely unnecessary.

You're starting to sound of an age that did not 'witness the transition'.

It's not as if you're adding anything beyond what I was already adding, but to calm your oversensitive nerves:

Mario 64 clearly wins the argument. FF7 set a precedent & standard for development in terms of story, cinematics, etc that wasn't fully realized until long after its release. Conversely, Mario 64 set a standard that could and would be virtually immediately imitated.

If we're to judge it on the basis of simply "blowing your mind", even still, Mario 64 wins. FF7 ended up being a much more immersive experience for me and paid larger dividends, but in terms of being a sentimental "game changer" - yes, there is no doubt, M64 holds that title.

Mario 64, Grand Theft Auto 3, and to some degree MGS2 are all in the category.

EDIT: You might be able to mention Super Mario Brothers on NES, in that group. I went from playing Space Invaders on Atari, to SMB on NES, and that was quite a change. But I was much younger then.

lol

Also Obligatory SM64 is still more influential than FF7 statement because its true..

 

[Mr Swine]

We are forgetting that Sony nearly "shat" themselves after Mario 64 was released, which forced them to release the Dualshock controller. If Mario 64 wasn't as good or flopped then Sony wouldn't bother with it until the PS2 era

 

[Kurt]

Converting a top down view such as zelda & final fantasy doesnt take as much as converting a 2d game in 3D. This is why so many games (such as sonic) are failing converting in 3D.

Games like zelda, ff7, gta were concepts that were already thinkable on how to covert them to 3D. Beside it is hard to covert a 2D game into 3D,... the platforming part is one of the most difficult thing to convert from 2D to 3D.

So stop mentioning FF7.