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[ArchedThunder]

You probably wouldn't want a blackface performer in that party.

You just equated Drag Queens to blackface, yeah, fuck this thread.

 

[Wavebossa]

You probably wouldn't want a blackface performer in that party.

You serious...???

 

[Trigger Warning]

If people say that they are offended then we should believe them. Why is that so hard?

 

[Izuna]

You just equated Drag Queens to blackface, yeah, fuck this thread.

+1 for this, I didn't want to quote to give the poster a chance to rewrite just in case there was a typo or something.

 

[Carcetti]

You just equated Drag Queens to blackface, yeah, fuck this thread.

Haven't heard that one before? I have. For some trans people the thing drag performers turn into performance is not just fun and games with silly outfits and funny slang. Is that really hard to see? It's not everyone's view but I'm just amazed why people can't imagine any reason why there could be problems between these groups.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Glad you cleared that up. So since you made the equivalence yourself, Pride isn't about just trans. It is not a trans event nor a trans movement. It is a movement for acceptance for all of these groups that are oppressed.

So really it would be like the BET awards saying that they don't want to award anything to mixed raced people since they ain't black enough.

If we're making that equivalence, wouldn't the equivalence of "not giving an award to mixed-race people" be more akin to "not allowing trans drag queens to perform"?

As opposed to transmisogyny being isolated incidents in drag queen performances, maybe it is actually fairly common as Erin suggests and that's why the decisions were made as they were?

(as for the actual equivalence, I doubt BET would act on such a thing thanks to the "one drop" idea)

EDIT: But seriously, this thread is getting ridiculous. It's a handful of people in defense of the decision discussed in the OP and many more people shouting them down, calling them bigots and saying "fuck this thread" and jumping to hyperbolic conclusions rather often. It feels like people would sooner ignore or misrepresent what someone is saying rather than believe that maybe, what they're saying holds some truth.

 

[Father_Brain]

Drag Queens generally make fun of everyone. Why should one group be excluded?

That line of reasoning effectively absolves drag from any and all criticism on political grounds, which strikes me as a very knee-jerk response.

If you think someone is wrong to be offended by a drag performance, fine. But you should be able to defend the work on its own merits and explain why it's not offensive, not resort to platitudes about the nature of the medium or "grow a thicker skin" attacks.

(Obviously, you can't do that in this case, because nether of us can see the performance in question, but as a general principle.)

 

[VegiHam]

If people say that they are offended then we should believe them. Why is that so hard?

But, but, #NotAllDragActs, they're the real intolerant ones, and so on...

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

That show is offensive to the furry community. Could you please edit that out?

If I don't laugh, I'll cry.

 

[Izuna]

If people say that they are offended then we should believe them. Why is that so hard?

People are offended by gay marriage.

--

I understand that some trans don't feel comfortable with drag queens, but honestly this should spark discussion not exclusion. You can't have members of pride not accepting each other.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Drag runs the risk, as I see it, of becoming our Zwarte Piet; where we refuse to listen to people's genuine grievances because it's 'traditional' and 'just fun and not meant to offend anyone.'

(While I'm aware of extremely problematic transmisogyny in the drag community, especially on the comedy end of things...)
I don't really understand how an artform and outlet for gender expression which usually involves underprivileged effeminate queer men putting on makeup/high heels/ dresses/impractical acrylic nails (all strictly enforced, arbitrary socially constructed tertiary sexual characteristics btw) to express their femininity in a society which stigmatizes effeminacy could ever be at risk of becoming comparable to a homogeneous privileged white European nation putting on a blackface event in a world where most black people are made fun of and devalued for their naturally born features and heritage.
It just doesn't make any sort of sense to me, and is kind of offensive as a black person and a feminine queer boy who's experienced both racism and a heaping amount of effemiphobia/femmephobia .
Afaict, lot of the time drag is a legitimate form of feminine (and masculine in the case of kings...) gender expression for gender-nonconforming cis men/boys as well as performance art.

Drag is a performance meant to parody gender and joke about it, it subversive humor which is fine and has its time and place.

Drag is not solely about this, and it honestly makes me wonder how much people actually know about drag culture...
The vast majority of drag queens don't have the skill/talent to parody gender or even joke about it.; most queens compete in beauty pageants, lip sync/dance, sing, walk cat walks, or engage in makeup artistry.
There is almost no humor or parody involved in those kinds of things...they're definitely subversive, but it's usually on a very passive level (i.e This dmab person is presenting like a cis woman)

 

[Wavebossa]

You just equated Drag Queens to blackface, yeah, fuck this thread.

Yeah.. it seems like the underlying issue that a lot of people have here are that they view Drag Queens as fake, phony, clowns, performers, not a life style, just a thing that weird people do.

They don't want to come out and say it, but that is the only way some of these posts even make a lick of sense

 

[THRILLH0]

You just equated Drag Queens to blackface, yeah, fuck this thread.

You serious...???

Why not have a go at elaborating on why it's such an inappropriate analogy?

Is it 1:1? Of course not but try putting yourself in the shoes of a transgender person.

 

[collige]

It's certainly not as though the LGBTQ+ community is noted for treating trans people as equal in the movement (this is not universally true of course, but it is hardly uncommon either), so I can't imagine that it was a matter of "trans people getting their way" and more a matter of the people that made the decisions on the situation felt that the performances had a very realistic chance to make attendees uncomfortable.

Of course, there are problems of representation within the LGBTQ+ community and I think that it's a good thing that people are trying to rectify this. My problem is that the solution presented by this specific event is to ban drag performers not based off any problematic aspects of their performances, but based of the gender identity of the performers themselves. It's straight up discrimination.

 

[radios shipping overview]

But, but, #NotAllDragActs, they're the real intolerant ones, and so on...

Yes, okay, so we should ban all (cis) drag acts instead of encouraging dialogue on why many drag acts are seen as problematic and making careful decisions on the matter?

 

[Principate]

But, but, #NotAllDragActs, they're the real intolerant ones, and so on...

Your essentially saying all cis drag acts are by default transmisogynistic but trans drags are fine why is that?

 

[A Link to the Past]

People are offended by gay marriage.

--

I understand that some trans don't feel comfortable with drag queens, but honestly this should spark discussion not exclusion. You can't have members of pride not accepting each other.

False equivalence. People who are offended by same-sex marriage aren't targets, and there's no valid reason to view same-sex marriage as an affront to yourself. Whereas being offended by aspects of drag queen culture is valid because those aspects are about trans people, if only implicitly.

Of course, there are problems of representation within the LGBTQ+ community and I think that it's a good thing that people are trying to rectify this. My problem is that the solution presented by this specific event is to ban drag performers not based off any problematic aspects of their performances, but based of the gender identity of the performers themselves. It's straight up discrimination.

There's certainly elements of discrimination to any kind of exclusion based on a nature of your being or how you dress or whatever, but simply saying "it's discrimination" muddles the conversation. When people think discrimination, they think "privileged person oppressing marginalized person." They think about sodomy laws, Jim Crow, contraception bans, etc. Not allowing nudists in your store is discrimination, but I wouldn't call it that because it attracts the eye to serious instances of it in society and creates an equivalence between the two.

 

[pigeon]

Why not have a go at elaborating on why it's such an inappropriate analogy?

Is it 1:1? Of course not but try putting yourself in the shoes of a transgender person.

I don't think anybody doing drag is trying to mock trangendered people.

One of the more important queer theory ideas is that gender is mostly performative, both in the sense that who you have sex with doesn't depend on your genitals, and in the sense that the patriarchy projects a lot of behavioral expectations on you based on your genitals that aren't actually fundamental in any biological sense.

A lot of queer groups, behaviors, etc. are interrogations of this idea -- taking some section of patriarchal male/female behavior patterns, whether you're slicing in a traditional or nontraditional sense, and expressing your personal gender using those behaviors. Arguably it's even central to being transgendered (though obviously transgendered people are born with a gender that doesn't match their body).

Drag queens are just a pretty aggressive exploration of this concept. If gender is mostly performative, then you should be able to put it on and take it off like a wig. That's why RuPaul is a she in the dress and a he in the suit.

I don't think it really relates directly to being transgendered at all -- one is something you're born with, one is a profession/lifestyle you adopt.

I agree that if this is a Trans Pride event then cis drag queens maybe aren't super appropriate?

...

 

[Chariot]

Yeah.. it seems like the underlying issue that a lot of people have here are that they view Drag Queens as fake, phony, clowns, performers, not a life style, just a thing that weird people do.

They don't want to come out and say it, but that is the only way some of these posts even make a lick of sense

The weirdest part are the arguments that mirror those of intolerant people againt homosexuality. This is just so wrong.

 

[Anura]

As a trans women I'm cool with drag as long as they leave out the transmisogonistic stuff.

 

[Wavebossa]

The weirdest part are the arguments that mirror those of intolerant people againt homosexuality. This is just so wrong.

Lol exactly. If you switch terms, (gay straight trans drag) you would have word for word constructed arguments that people use vs homosexuality to a tee.

Certainly is strange to witnsess

 

[Principate]

The weirdest part are the arguments that mirror those of intolerant people againt homosexuality. This is just so wrong.

Because it's the exact same mindset and has been used to oppress thousands of cultures for thousands of years.

 

[dream]

(While I'm aware of transmisogyny in the drag community, especially on the comedy end of things...)
I don't really understand how an artform and outlet for gender expression which usually involves underprivileged effeminate queer men putting on makeup/high heels/ dresses/impractical acrylic nails (all strictly enforced, arbitrary socially constructed tertiary sexual characteristics btw) to express their femininity in a society which stigmatizes effeminacy could ever be at risk of becoming comparable to a homogeneous privileged white European nation putting on a blackface event in a world where most black people are made fun of and devalued for their naturally born features and heritage.
It just doesn't make any sort of sense to me, and is kind of offensive as a black person and a feminine queer boy who's experienced both racism and a heaping amount of effemiphobia/femmephobia .
Afaict, lot of the time drag is a legitimate form of feminine (and masculine in the case of kings...) gender expression for gender-nonconforming cis men/boys as well as performance art.

Right. Drag, at its core, foregrounds the artifice of gender by showing that it's essentially a performance. I am a man because I perform masculinity. She is a woman because she performs femininity. This is fantastic because it decouples gender from sex, which is the very foundation of transgenderism.

That's why the bolded quote in the OP is so troubling.

 

[RDreamer]

I don't think anybody doing drag is trying to mock trangendered people.

One of the more important queer theory ideas is that gender is mostly performative, both in the sense that who you have sex with doesn't depend on your genitals, and in the sense that the patriarchy projects a lot of behavioral expectations on you based on your genitals that aren't actually fundamental in any biological sense.

A lot of queer groups, behaviors, etc. are interrogations of this idea -- taking some section of patriarchal male/female behavior patterns, whether you're slicing in a traditional or nontraditional sense, and expressing your personal gender using those behaviors. Arguably it's even central to being transgendered (though obviously transgendered people are born with a gender that doesn't match their body).

Drag queens are just a pretty aggressive exploration of this concept. If gender is mostly performative, then you should be able to put it on and take it off like a wig. That's why RuPaul is a she in the dress and a he in the suit.

I don't think it really relates directly to being transgendered at all -- one is something you're born with, one is a profession/lifestyle you adopt.

I agree that if this is a Trans Pride event then cis drag queens maybe aren't super appropriate?

Hmm... this also makes sense and I mostly rescind my previous post in light of this.

 

[Carcetti]

The misleading thread title is probably dredging up a lot of underlying bitterness in here and not doing a great thing for any sort of a communal unity in here. I now notice it in myself (which is annoying). Drag's not some monolith culture and I shouldn't probably apply all the problematic stuff I've read and seen to everyone in it. I think I'll let it rest now and hope for a less inflamed discussion some other time :s

 

[A Link to the Past]

Lol exactly. If you switch terms, (gay straight trans drag) you would have word for word constructed arguments that people use vs homosexuality to a tee.

Certainly is strange to witnsess

That doesn't mean much. "White people can't attend this rally" "Black people can't attend this rally" You can do that to that kind of language, but I think we can agree that the former is less problematic than the latter.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

I don't think anybody doing drag is trying to mock trangendered people.

One of the more important queer theory ideas is that gender is mostly performative, both in the sense that who you have sex with doesn't depend on your genitals, and in the sense that the patriarchy projects a lot of behavioral expectations on you based on your genitals that aren't actually fundamental in any biological sense.

A lot of queer groups, behaviors, etc. are interrogations of this idea -- taking some section of patriarchal male/female behavior patterns, whether you're slicing in a traditional or nontraditional sense, and expressing your personal gender using those behaviors. Arguably it's even central to being transgendered (though obviously transgendered people are born with a gender that doesn't match their body).

Drag queens are just a pretty aggressive exploration of this concept. If gender is mostly performative, then you should be able to put it on and take it off like a wig. That's why RuPaul is a she in the dress and a he in the suit.

I don't think it really relates directly to being transgendered at all -- one is something you're born with, one is a profession/lifestyle you adopt.

I agree that if this is a Trans Pride event then cis drag queens maybe aren't super appropriate?

Were this the kind of drag that Pride performers are paid to do, it would be fine. In my experience, it's always come down to the performers mocking the trans people in the crowd.

 

[Shuggananas]

If people say that they are offended then we should believe them. Why is that so hard?

"i'm offended by everything stop whatever you're doing"
just because one person is offended by something doesn't mean it should be banned, otherwise we'd be pretty fucked

 

[VegiHam]

(While I'm aware of transmisogyny in the drag community, especially on the comedy end of things...)
I don't really understand how an artform and outlet for gender expression which usually involves underprivileged effeminate queer men putting on makeup/high heels/ dresses/impractical acrylic nails (all strictly enforced, arbitrary socially constructed tertiary sexual characteristics btw) to express their femininity in a society which stigmatizes effeminacy could ever be at risk of becoming comparable to a homogeneous privileged white European nation putting on a blackface event in a world where most black people are made fun of and devalued for their naturally born features and heritage.
It just doesn't make any sort of sense to me, and is kind of offensive as a black person and a feminine queer boy who's experienced both racism and a heaping amount of effemiphobia/femmephobia .
Afaict, lot of the time drag is a legitimate form of feminine (and masculine in the case of kings...) gender expression for gender-nonconforming cis men/boys as well as performance art.

See I've no personal problem with drag either. I agree with all the benefits for have listed. But the point of comparison is between PoC in Holland complaining about Zwate Piet and being told 'no it's a harmless children's tradition we don't want to hear your opinion' and Trans people being told 'no drag is an important form of gender expression and we don't want to hear your opinion'.

Because as it stands, Trans people are saying that drag offends them, and I don't think it's correct to dismiss that without listening to why they feel that way; and considering what if anything can be done to reconcile that situation. The answer may well be that we can keep drag and just root out the transphobia. But if there is something intrinsically transphobic about drag itself, if it is an appropriation of that identity- and I'm not convinced that's the case, but if it is- then that's something we need to confront not ignore.

Yes, okay, so we should ban all (cis) drag acts instead of encouraging dialogue on why many drag acts are seen as problematic and making careful decisions on the matter?

Your essentially saying all cis drag acts are by default transmisogynistic but trans drags are fine why is that?

Um, guys, that quote was flippant. I actually think we should encourage discussion. That's like the main thing we need to do. Of course cisdrag isn't automatically transphobic. But we need to examine this stuff and I think a temporary ban while we have those conversations is an acceptable compromise if it facilitates the conversation. Which it sorta has since we're now talking about it.

 

[Izuna]

If we're making that equivalence, wouldn't the equivalence of "not giving an award to mixed-race people" be more akin to "not allowing trans drag queens to perform"?

As opposed to transmisogyny being isolated incidents in drag queen performances, maybe it is actually fairly common as Erin suggests and that's why the decisions were made as they were?

(as for the actual equivalence, I doubt BET would act on such a thing thanks to the "one drop" idea)

EDIT: But seriously, this thread is getting ridiculous. It's a handful of people in defense of the decision discussed in the OP and many more people shouting them down, calling them bigots and saying "fuck this thread" and jumping to hyperbolic conclusions rather often. It feels like people would sooner ignore or misrepresent what someone is saying rather than believe that maybe, what they're saying holds some truth.

I don't want you to abandon the thread. The blackface comment is the only example of people shutting something down.

Discussion between me and one poster has gone back and forth but it's not that I don't understand the poster.

I don't want to make this post benefit my standpoint, but to stop you from refusing to discuss further.

I feel that the discussion, as it is going in this thread, was already made behind doors before said decision was made. It wasn't an out-of-the-blue decision.

This actual event could get messy -- I'm sure there are gay people who are very offensive to trans people too. But the implicit message here is that drag in and of itself is offensive to trans acceptance. That it is often mistaken as being the same of, as one poster put it, the "blackface" to trans.

This isn't about cis male entitlement. This is about a body representing the Pride movement effectively downplaying to call for acceptance of Drag.

I can see the opposite scenario happening. Now I know pride is under representative of trans as it is, but isn't the complaint about how it is wrong that some in Drag are transphobic?

 

[collige]

False equivalence. People who are offended by same-sex marriage aren't targets, and there's no valid reason to view same-sex marriage as an affront to yourself. Whereas being offended by aspects of drag queen culture is valid because those aspects are about trans people, if only implicitly.



There's certainly elements of discrimination to any kind of exclusion based on a nature of your being or how you dress or whatever, but simply saying "it's discrimination" muddles the conversation. When people think discrimination, they think "privileged person oppressing marginalized person." They think about sodomy laws, Jim Crow, contraception bans, etc. Not allowing nudists in your store is discrimination, but I wouldn't call it that because it attracts the eye to serious instances of it in society and creates an equivalence between the two.

But it is discrimination in the most literal sense. They are allowing drag performers participate if they are trans and not if they're cis, regardless of anything else.

 

[hidys]

.

I'm not going to comment on this policy since I have no underdtanding of drag culture but thank you for sharing your experience with us.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

The weirdest part are the arguments that mirror those of intolerant people againt homosexuality. This is just so wrong.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I know this is gonna sound really awful in a post social-justice-tumblr age, but honestly, not all instances of being offended carry the same merit. As far as changing the behavior of others around you, some instances rightfully carry absolutely zero merit. Sometimes people feel offended by something because of inner issues they need to work on themselves as opposed to someone else attacking them or throwing any form of malice their way. The onus for change in this case on the person feeling wronged.

 

[Red Liquorice]

I think this is the wrong battle to fight.

 

[mollipen]

I've said it several times in this thread already, but every Pride I've been to featured cis drag queens punching down on trans people during their performances. But that discrimination is apparently okay and worth fighting for?

You've brought this up numerous times in this thread, but given no examples. What do you consider to be trans-directed jokes that are said in such situations that you don't consider okay?

I want to be clear, I'm not attacking you on this—I genuinely want to know. I've attended almost no drag shows in my life, so I have no actual knowledge of the things of things that are or aren't said. So I'm curious if I'd agree or disagree with your take on what is said.

 

[Wavebossa]

That doesn't mean much. "White people can't attend this rally" "Black people can't attend this rally" You can do that to that kind of language, but I think we can agree that the former is less problematic than the latter.

I'm black and I don't agree with that. I remember my early BSA (black student alliance meetings) at Vanderbilt and how anti-white some of the members were. Especially when it came to events that we would put on.

Trust me, this line of thinking leads to discrimination.

 

[DarkFlow]

What do you think the Q stands for, exactly?

Queer or questioning depending on who you ask. I would think a Drag Queen falls under that since it's an umbrella term.

 

[Izuna]

False equivalence. People who are offended by same-sex marriage aren't targets, and there's no valid reason to view same-sex marriage as an affront to yourself. Whereas being offended by aspects of drag queen culture is valid because those aspects are about trans people, if only implicitly.

Okay I feel that I have addressed this on some of my earliest posts in this thread...

Being trans doesn't give them a right to not be accepting. No minority has the right to be bullshit to another minority. Pride is advocating for acceptance and equality for ALL.

With this line of thinking, do you feel that it is okay for cis heterosexual male performances to be banned from LGBTQ+ events too?

I can't wrap my head around the idea that because trans are oppressed, they are allowed to exclude another member of LGBTQ+ within a Pride event.

 

[A Link to the Past]

But it is discrimination in the most literal sense. They are allowing drag performers participate if they are trans and not if they're cis, regardless of anything else.

I don't think you get my point. My point is that technically it is discrimination, but that calling it as such is disingenuous because the word carries so much weight that is then put upon what's being called discrimination. It's like censorship - I can't think of an example so I'll use a hypothetical - Weird Al used the word "spastic" in his Word Crimes music video, which as some may know is considered offensive to call people in the UK. Weird Al apologized and said he didn't realize the word was offensive - and everything I've said is true so far. Now let's say that he changes the word. Is this censorship? Yes. Yet calling it that is unconstructive because it conveys a very different meaning of the word than what is actually happening.

I don't want you to abandon the thread. The blackface comment is the only example of people shutting something down.

Discussion between me and one poster has gone back and forth but it's not that I don't understand the poster.

I don't want to make this post benefit my standpoint, but to stop you from refusing to discuss further.

I feel that the discussion, as it is going in this thread, was already made behind doors before said decision was made. It wasn't an out-of-the-blue decision.

This actual event could get messy -- I'm sure there are gay people who are very offensive to trans people too. But the implicit message here is that drag in and of itself is offensive to trans acceptance. That it is often mistaken as being the same of, as one poster put it, the "blackface" to trans.

This isn't about cis male entitlement. This is about a body representing the Pride movement effectively downplaying to call for acceptance of Drag.

I can see the opposite scenario happening. Now I know pride is under representative of trans as it is, but isn't the complaint about how it is wrong that some in Drag are transphobic?

I'd reply, but it's kind of a longer reply than I can do. I need to go eat burgers.

 

[pigeon]

Were this the kind of drag that Pride performers are paid to do, it would be fine. In my experience, it's always come down to the performers mocking the trans people in the crowd.

I straight-up agree that if that's what drag performers are doing they should stop, and I definitely agree that a trans-focused event has the right to ask drag performers not to perform if it will make it a less safe space for trans people.

I wish there weren't such a disconnect between the thread title and article and the situation you've described, because I think it's leading to a lot of unnecessary conflict.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The weirdest part are the arguments that mirror those of intolerant people againt homosexuality. This is just so wrong.

Pretty much. Sad.

 

[Principate]

That doesn't mean much. "White people can't attend this rally" "Black people can't attend this rally" You can do that to that kind of language, but I think we can agree that the former is less problematic than the latter.

It's not the same and you know it, black people don't (or rather shouldn't), find white people in themselves offensive that's just plain old racism, that's normally done in case of a community, to tackle specific issues to certan ethnicities and even that case is pretty rare and very contentious.

You might as well bar gays lesbians etc while your at it.

 

[kirblar]

That line of reasoning effectively absolves drag from any and all criticism on political grounds, which strikes me as a very knee-jerk response.

If you think someone is wrong to be offended by a drag performance, fine. But you should be able to defend the work on its own merits and explain why it's not offensive, not resort to platitudes about the nature of the medium or "grow a thicker skin" attacks.

(Obviously, you can't do that in this case, because nether of us can see the performance in question, but as a general principle.)

It's something where you need to be able to say something more than "they're making fun of _____", because they make fun of pretty much everything. I'm not saying to give them carte blanche- mean-spirited "humor" that's really just an avenue to belittle someone isn't ok, whether it's coming out of a GOP housewife or a Drag Queen.

 

[Carcetti]

I don't want you to abandon the thread. The blackface comment is the only example of people shutting something down.

I'ts not shutting anyone down unless you're unwilling to hear what people actually say, though. It's not a position I just made up. Just google "trans vs drag" and witness a pile of reading on the subject. There's even trans blogs that compare drag to Rachel Dolezal case.

Of course the only one who's actually enjoying the fight is Breitbart. But putting your head in the sand and pretending there's no problem is not a solution.

 

[twobear]

I kind of understand the rationale of some radical feminists who think that drag is 'gender appropriation', but it's not really clear to me why trans people would be offended by people who fuck around with gender stereotyping

 

[Izuna]

I'd reply, but it's kind of a longer reply than I can do. I need to go eat burgers.

And I'm on holiday, my missus is about to crack if I don't get in the shower and have her watch some Archer episodes before bed.

No I really enjoy this discussion. It's really difficult for me to be part of discussions where I have no personal experience but it's something I love practising. I go into every argument reading each post word for word in my head open minded. GAF itself has changed my stance many times.

I gotta go but, whether this thread gets locked or not I will still read up.

Thank you for your time man.

 

[dream]

I straight-up agree that if that's what drag performers are doing they should stop, and I definitely agree that a trans-focused event has the right to ask drag performers not to perform if it will make it a less safe space for trans people.

I wish there weren't such a disconnect between the thread title and article and the situation you've described, because I think it's leading to a lot of unnecessary conflict.

The disconnect you describe is entirely due to Erin's situation being completely divorced from that which is discussed in the article, though. Erin is attempting to map her experiences onto a situation that, according to both the LES's and Pink News's writeups, has nothing to do with what she's describing.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

You've brought this up numerous times in this thread, but given no examples. What do you consider to be trans-directed jokes that are said in such situations that you don't consider okay?

I want to be clear, I'm not attacking you on this—I genuinely want to know. I've attended almost no drag shows in my life, so I have no actual knowledge of the things of things that are or aren't said. So I'm curious if I'd agree or disagree with your take on what is said.

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

 

[esms]

I don't think anybody doing drag is trying to mock trangendered people.

One of the more important queer theory ideas is that gender is mostly performative, both in the sense that who you have sex with doesn't depend on your genitals, and in the sense that the patriarchy projects a lot of behavioral expectations on you based on your genitals that aren't actually fundamental in any biological sense.

A lot of queer groups, behaviors, etc. are interrogations of this idea -- taking some section of patriarchal male/female behavior patterns, whether you're slicing in a traditional or nontraditional sense, and expressing your personal gender using those behaviors. Arguably it's even central to being transgendered (though obviously transgendered people are born with a gender that doesn't match their body).

Drag queens are just a pretty aggressive exploration of this concept. If gender is mostly performative, then you should be able to put it on and take it off like a wig. That's why RuPaul is a she in the dress and a he in the suit.

I don't think it really relates directly to being transgendered at all -- one is something you're born with, one is a profession/lifestyle you adopt.

I agree that if this is a Trans Pride event then cis drag queens maybe aren't super appropriate?

Thanks for this post man.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And I'm on holiday, my missus is about to crack if I don't get in the shower and have her watch some Archer episodes before bed.

No I really enjoy this discussion. It's really difficult for me to be part of discussions where I have no personal experience but it's something I love practising. I go into every argument reading each post word for word in my head open minded. GAF itself has changed my stance many times.

I gotta go but, whether this thread gets locked or not I will still read up.

Thank you for your time man.

PM me, I'd rather have this discussion in private. Paste your long post I didn't reply to and I'll reply to it when I can.