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[Goodstyle]

This is late to the controversy, but I've been hearing rumblings of this for years. Things like Joss is a "faux feminist" or how he's actually a "sexist" have bothered me for a while now. I mean, Joss has done more for women in the industry than everyone tweeting about he's a misogynist put together.

The only good arguments I've heard are about how he had a falling out with Charisma Carpenter after she got pregnant, but I haven't seen concrete evidence of that, and it looks like things resolved when she came back to do another episode on Angel that sent her character off.

Is this mostly because of Age of Ultron though? Because if so, that is very disappointing.

 

[Vik]

Because he doesn't hate men.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Can someone explain what it means to be a "feminist?"

 

[bennywhatever]

He probably just sees women as people and doesn't care about subjective labels.

 

[Fj0823]

something something Black Widow

probably

 

[Slayven]

I swear to god the Black Widow AoU thing was the most contrived bullshit i have ever seen. You have to be willfully ignorant or stupid not to get context of the scene.

 

[Garlador]

Is this mostly because of Age of Ultron though? Because if so, that is very disappointing.

It's mostly this.

... And even that was a gross misunderstanding of the scene in context.

 

[Gravy Boat]

I always thought his name was Josh. I've learned something.

 

[Inferno313]

I think a lot of it had to do with the portrayal of Black Widow in AoU. Which, personally, was a bit problematic. I think the idea that because someone made a single probelmatic piece of art they can't be considered a "true feminist" is awful though. People have difference of opinions on what is and isn't problematic, people slip up and say/do problematic things without knowing, and people learn and change from their experiences.

Treating feminism and progressivism as a "club" that will kick you out if you don't perfectly follow the "rules" is a huge problem within those communities right now, in my opinion.

 

[Calvero]

I swear to god the Black Widow AoU thing was the most contrived bullshit i have ever seen. You have to be willfully ignorant or stupid not to get context of the scene.

wait...what thing?

 

[Walshicus]

I swear to god the Black Widow AoU thing was the most contrived bullshit i have ever seen. You have to be willfully ignorant or stupid not to get context of the scene.

What scene?

 

[dave is ok]

I think a lot of it had to do with the portrayal of Black Widow in AoU. Which, personally, was a bit problematic. I think the idea that because someone made a single probelmatic piece of art they can't be considered a "true feminist" is awful though. People have difference of opinions on what is and isn't problematic, people slip up and say/do problematic things without knowing, and people learn and change from their experiences.

Treating feminism and progressivism as a "club" that will kick you out if you don't perfectly follow the "rules" is a huge problem within those communities right now, in my opinion.

New record?

 

[Aurongel]

People formed a bunch of wild theories and narratives based on a Marvel film he has since criticized for not having much creative control over.

Joss Whedon isn't what's wrong with female representation in the media, it's an albeit questionable cherry picked example of his writing that people latched onto.

 

[Dance Inferno]

I swear to god the Black Widow AoU thing was the most contrived bullshit i have ever seen. You have to be willfully ignorant or stupid not to get context of the scene.

Someone explain what scene this is?

 

[Sylas]

I've seen it argued that throughout most of his career that while he places women in positions of power and authority in his writing they still come off primarily as objects to be won and desired.

It can come off as more fetish-y than empowering if the woman in power only has that power so men can lust after her because of it, basically.

Not saying I agree or disagree with it--mostly because I genuinely don't care for Joss Whedon's work--but it's one of the predominant arguments I've seen among my friends.

 

[Thaedolus]

Can someone explain what it means to be a "feminist?"

The way I define it (and consider myself) is not having prejudice or differing values about someone's intelligence or abilities due to their gender/sex.

Others seem to think it means you gotta hate men or promote women over men or spell women "womyn" or some shit.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I think a lot of it had to do with the portrayal of Black Widow in AoU. Which, personally, was a bit problematic. I think the idea that because someone made a single probelmatic piece of art they can't be considered a "true feminist" is awful though. People have difference of opinions on what is and isn't problematic, people slip up and say/do problematic things without knowing, and people learn and change from their experiences.

Treating feminism and progressivism as a "club" that will kick you out if you don't perfectly follow the "rules" is a huge problem within those communities right now, in my opinion.

Agreed, this right here is bullshit.

 

[jph139]

It's probably the AoU stuff, yeah.

Personally I don't really care for how he writes female characters, but it's definitely an overreaction to "kick him out of the club" even if you don't care for how he executes things. At least the dude's putting in an effort, and has been for years.

 

[Slayven]

wait...what thing?

What scene?

Black Widow and Bruce's scene where they talk about their relationship.

 

[maxcriden]

Can someone explain what it means to be a "feminist?"

A feminist is any person whose ideology includes advancing the equality of women.

 

[Htown]

I swear to god the Black Widow AoU thing was the most contrived and bullshit i have ever seen. You have to be willfully ignorant or stupid not to get context of the scene.

I saw people arguing you could ignore the context because "Death of the Author" (that's not how that concept works), and therefore the scene was sexist. They then argued backwards form the scene being sexist that Whedon isn't a feminist.

You can't say the author doesn't matter, make a conclusion about the content, then work backwards from this conclusion to make a character conclusion about the author.

 

[Richie]

Some people take the actions and behavior of fictional characters way too damn seriously.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

Can someone explain what it means to be a "feminist?"

Modern feminism's goal is to achieve equal rights for everyone.

 

[Sylas]

wait...what thing?

What scene?

From what I understand, a lot of the outrage came from Black Widow considering herself a "monster" because she was unable to bear children. On one level I can see how focusing on how the removal of her biological "right" as a female is what makes her a monster compared to basically all of the people she murders is a bit, uh... Much.

On another, I think people take comic book characters a little too seriously sometimes. Popular media is important, but eh. It's not something I'd rake anyone over the coals over.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Didn't he fire that one lady off buffy b/c she got pregnant?

 

[Inferno313]

New record?

I'll edit in a few more just for you.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Didn't know he was a 'feminist' (activist) to begin with. If it's because Black Widow, that's bullshit.

 

[stufte]

Someone explain what scene this is?

Where She and Banner have an emotional moment about the realities of their relationship and her feeling like a monster for not being able to bear children. People lost their shit over what they *thought* was being represented in this scene.

 

[captainpat]

Didn't he make some speech about how he did't like the word "feminist"?

 

[Slayven]

I saw people arguing you could ignore the context because "Death of the Author" (that's not how that concept works), and therefore the scene was sexist. They then argued backwards form the scene being sexist that Whedon isn't a feminist.

You can't say the author doesn't matter, make a conclusion about the content, then work backwards from this conclusion to make a character conclusion about the author.

Yeah the arguments got so twisted and just flat out making up shit I tuned out. When you have to bend time and space, and rewrite context, maybe you were wrong in the first place

 

[Nappuccino]

Can someone explain what it means to be a "feminist?"

They expect and work for men and women (everyone, really) to be treated equally?

 

[n00bsauce87]

I think you should wait until he proclaims that he is. Has he at least said that?

 

[Mr Nash]

The way I define it (and consider myself) is not having prejudice or differing values about someone's intelligence or abilities due to their gender/sex.

Others seem to think it means you gotta hate men or promote women over men or spell women "womyn" or some shit.

Isn't that just egalitarianism, then?

 

[Tansut]

I saw a picture of him wearing a fedora once, doesn't that automatically disqualify you from being a feminist?

 

[Two Words]

Where She and Banner have an emotional moment about the realities of their relationship and her feeling like a monster for not being able to bear children. People lost their shit over what they *thought* was being represented in this scene.

Haven't seen the movie, but it seems silly to have a female character so empowered yet self-afflicting over not being able to fulfill some ancient womanly duty.

 

[Fj0823]

wait...what thing?

basically
She tells bruce the last step in her assasin academy was to sterilize her forcefully, taking the choice to ever give life away from her, turning her only into a desensitized killing machine. she tells him he's not the only monster in the team


for some dumb people she called women who don't want children monsters

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Here's a fairly glib/surface thing that I wrote for Cracked back in 2009:

Joss shoots his actresses most lovingly when they're wet and crying and curled up in the fetal position, pressed up against a wall, broken, mascara running, bleeding, and reaching out. And what are they typically reaching out for? Some dude (or vampire or werewolf) and the dick he's attached to.

That's it. That's as complex as it gets. Sound familiar? That's because it's also the image of women we get from every other movie or show written by men. And yet when a lisping nerd who tritely describes himself as "a lesbian in a man's body" does it to a high-school cheerleader, it's "feminist." This is like when Toni Morrison called Bill Clinton "The First Black President." You could only say such a thing if you were THAT willing to settle. His two most artistically successful shows are Angel and Firefly, both centered on men, and written from a male point of view. If I wanted to be glib (and I usually do) Angel and Firefly worked because they're basically "Batman in LA" and "Han Solo, the TV Show," respectively.

I don't think it's fair to say that he's not feminist. He very obviously is. But he's got his own hangups that he's gotten better at over time, and some that he still hasn't managed to fix. But the main difference between 1999, or 2009, and now, is that there's been a lot more voices added to the pop-culture discussion that allow for other perspectives to be shown, and by comparison, it reveals the shortcomings in his early "girl power" characterizations.

But then again, it's hard to argue that he didn't help make it a little more possible for better representations to get audience attention, either.

 

[Acorn]

Isn't that just egalitarianism, then?

Yes.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Because a section of idiots on Twitter & Tumblr have dedicated themselves to purifying the progressive movement from anyone that dare to not be lock-step with them 100%.

 

[Goodstyle]

Didn't he fire that one lady off buffy b/c she got pregnant?

Talked about it in the OP. Supposedly he didn't take her pregnancy well since they had to pretty much re-write their entire season to accommodate it. Her character was put in a coma at the end of the season, but she was brought back later in the 5th season for a touching send off to her character.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

Isn't that just egalitarianism, then?

It is and I've argued the name is slightly misleading but it's kinda like how mtv has nothing to do with music. The name came first, goals changed and it's hard to change the branding at this point.

 

[Sylas]

There's some truth to this for sure. He has fallen victim to the Kate Beaton Strong Female Character more than once in the past. But I still think he has done far more good, and even among his more crass bits of storytelling a lot of it can still be interpreted as being a bit blunt and silly due to channeling pulp romance/action -- often targeted very intentionally to female audiences -- rather than any explicit sexism.

I will agree that he's done a lot of good as far as pushing female representation in media. Buffy is straight up an inspiration to a lot of people I know even if she is a great example of the Kate Beaton Strong Female Character.

My own criticism of him comes from the fact that he hasn't evolved as a writer and continues to make the same mistakes that people repeatedly say are kinda gross. If your goal is to do good, you never really settle for good 'nuff.

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

Whenever we apply a label to a group of people, there will be people who will argue about the minutia concerning the definitions of exclusion/inclusion. Language is flexible, and words have power, so people have a vested interest in controlling that label.

 

[Kinyou]

From what I understand, a lot of the outrage came from Black Widow considering herself a "monster" because she was unable to bear children. On one level I can see how focusing on how the removal of her biological "right" as a female is what makes her a monster compared to basically all of the people she murders is a bit, uh... Much.

On another, I think people take comic book characters a little too seriously sometimes. Popular media is important, but eh. It's not something I'd rake anyone over the coals over.

I was really surprised how people made the jump that she thinks she's a monster because she can't get kids, and not because, you know, she was trained to be a ruthless assassin. To me that was her point of the monologue, that she can't get kids was more about telling Bruce that he wont have to worry about passing his Hulk stuff on.

 

[Inferno313]

Can someone explain what it means to be a "feminist?"

It means that you are a proponent of 100% equality between men and women. Simple as that.

There's different strands of feminist theory, but that right there is the core of it.

 

[Ganzlinger]

As far as I understand, she said she was a monster because she was trained to be a killer, without emotions. Not being able to have children is just a feature they created for showing that. Not a big deal.

By the way, does Black Widow from comics can't have children either?

 

[Slayven]

Where She and Banner have an emotional moment about the realities of their relationship and her feeling like a monster for not being able to bear children. People lost their shit over what they *thought* was being represented in this scene.

She felt like a monster because she was raised since childhood to be an assassin never forming connections, like the one she had with Bruce.

The Red Room took any hope for a normal life from her, like the hulk took any hope for a normal life for Bruce

As far as I understand, she said she was a monster because she was trained to be a killer, without emotions. Not being able to have children is just a feature they created for showing that. Not a big deal.

By the way, does Black Widow from comics can't have children either?

Don't think they talked about it in comics. But in comics she is also a 78 year old Russian Super Soldier

 

[Aurongel]

The controversy to me felt very manufactured. Like a group of well-intentioned progressives used the popularity of a Marvel film to propel their discussion points into the limelight.

 

[DragonSworne]

Modern feminism's goal is to achieve equal rights for everyone.

That's not what feminism means to a lot of people.

 

[Goodstyle]

Here's a fairly glib/surface thing that I wrote for Cracked back in 2009:

I don't think it's fair to say that he's not feminist. He very obviously is. But he's got his own hangups that he's gotten better at over time, and some that he still hasn't managed to fix. But the main difference between 1999, or 2009, and now, is that there's been a lot more voices added to the pop-culture discussion that allow for other perspectives to be shown, and by comparison, it reveals the shortcomings in his early "girl power" characterizations.

But then again, it's hard to argue that he didn't help make it a little more possible for better representations to get audience attention, either.

Angel more artistically successful than Buffy? In what sense? The general consensus among critics is that Buffy is the more influential/better show.

As for his depiction of women... I kinda agree with you there on some level. I mean, it's obviously more complex than that, but sometimes I feel like Joss really loves to watch women suffer. I mean, sexually, I think he's probably a little sadistic and that comes through in his writing. Doesn't mean he isn't a feminist though as others have said.