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[Refreshment.01]

Stop imagining what, exactly? What were you trying to say that I misrepresented? Nothing is wrong with Nintendo using ideas others have implemented. They weren't the first to have a second analog stick or triggers, and it was a good thing they adopted those. I'm saying I don't want them to simply build off what Valve is doing. Valve approached controller design from the perspective of being PC devs and their controller reflects that with its haptic trackpad. I'm saying I'd rather Nintendo take their own approach, as console devs, and see where that goes. No need to get defensive

Stop implying what i highlighted in the post you responded to:

Why do you say that? I'd say Nintendo is very much as capable as Valve at figuring out "where to go" as far as controller design goes...

i never said the company is not as capable as Valve that's what i was pointing out.


Is not a matter of been a console or PC dev. Valve did what it did because sticks don't cut it any more for precise camera and interface control. Its a bit sad seen this patent featuring sticks since NIntendo solved that problem with the Wii Remote already but it didn't catch on, ironically Wii Type control are coming back for VR. What Valve did is having the second best thing which is use trackpads.

Changing topics, im interested to know who exactly was the first to implemet triggers? As far as i remember Nintendo controllers popularized index and middle finger use in pads (not counting arcade controls here). With the SNES bumpers and N64 Z trigger.

 

[Nanashrew]

I think one thing to keep in mind is the local cloud storage and processing. This system may not have generations but instead upgrades to keep up with competition, thus reducing the chance of resetting to zero userbase every generation like the other two systems. The evolution of consoles is likely going in that direction to reduce losing more developers, especially those in Japan who have adopted a stronger stance of wait and see and making so many cross-gen ports.

 

[Anth0ny]

You're completely disregarding the cost implication of making a console that matches PS4/XOne. The problem is that not many who are looking for a 2nd console are going to fork out another £300 right now, and not many who are buying their first/primary console are going to buy the one with no guaranteed 3rd party support. To get a foothold back in the market Nintendo needs to make sure it can be a legit 2nd console choice. That means a) Offer something affordable, b) offer something different and c) have it be developer friendly so you don't pull another WiiU.

weird gimmicky controller shit is the opposite of developer friendly, that's the problem.

forces devs to expend resources in order to create nintendo exclusive shit. they don't have to worry about that kind of stuff with pc/xbone/ps4.

if you're nintendo, good luck convincing EA to waste time porting FIFA to NX if they're selling an affordable, "different" 2nd choice console. they won't even bother.

 

[Fourth Storm]

O:!

Paddles here we come!

That's what I'm hoping is the case. These patents are usually just rough concepts that likely differ from the final product if they're fully realized. I hope that it's the case concerning a D-Pad & buttons for such a handheld....or controller, whatever this is.

Here:

As shown in FIG. 2, in this embodiment, the first operation stick 18a is a hardware operation unit, and includes a key top portion 1800, a shaft portion 1802 and a detection portion 1804. Briefly describing, the display panel 14 and the touch panel 16 are formed with the hole 32 that penetrates them, and the first operation stick 18a is provided in a manner that the shaft portion 1802 passes the hole 32. That is, the first operation stick 18a is provided so as to project from the rear side to the front side of the display panel 14 and the touch panel 16. Therefore, the first operation stick 18a is surrounded by the display panel 14. When viewing the information processing apparatus 10 (housing 12) from the front, the key top (operation portion) of the first operation stick 18a is embedded within the display area of the display panel 14.

Here, the operation portion means a portion to which the player contacts, and typically, is a portion to which a finger for the user contacts. For example, a surface portion of the key top portion 1800 of the operation stick (18a and 18b), a surface portion of a cross button, a surface portion of a depressible button, an oblong surface portion of an operation button (20a and 20b) described later, a surface portion of a direction operation stick of a slide system, an outer peripheral surface of a wheel of a jog dial, etc. correspond to the operation portion.

On the shoulder buttons:

Thus, the first operation button 20a and the second operation button 20b are provided in positions that the player can operate with fingers when holding the housing 12 in an area except an area (portion) that the display panel 14 is provided of the housing 12. Therefore, the operation button (20a, 20b) may be provided in the rear side of the housing 12.

So buttons could be on the back.

n addition, in this embodiment, although the touch panel is provided on the display panel, it does not need to be limited to this. The touch panel should just be provided so as to detect the touch input (touch operation) to the display panel. Therefore, the touch panel may be provided in the rear side of the housing, for example. Furthermore, if adopting structure that can transmit the touch coordinate data to a CPU, the touch panel may be provided separately from the housing.

Here might be a controller version similar to this but w/out the screen:

Furthermore, although this embodiment is described about the information processing apparatus comprising the display panel and the touch panel, it is possible to also make an information processing apparatus function as an input device such as a controller by not providing the display panel.

Grips removable?

Furthermore, although the housing is constituted by the first portion and the grip portions in this embodiment, there may not be any grip portion.

Finally, this one makes it sound like a new Gamepad/terminal to be used w/ the "supplemental computing device" from the other recent patent:

Furthermore, although all the information processing such as a game processing is performed in the information processing apparatus in this embodiment, only a part of the information processing may be performed. For example, the information processing apparatus may perform processing that receives and outputs the image data (picture image data) and sound data that are transmitted from other information processing apparatuses such as a computer or a game apparatus, or processing that outputs (transmits) the operation input from the operation stick, the operation button and the touch panel to other information processing apparatuses, or both the processing.

 

[The_Lump]

weird gimmicky controller shit is the opposite of developer friendly, that's the problem.

forces devs to expend resources in order to create nintendo exclusive shit. they don't have to worry about that kind of stuff with pc/xbone/ps4.

if you're nintendo, good luck convincing EA to waste time porting FIFA to NX if they're selling an affordable, "different" 2nd choice console. they won't even bother.

....Wii did OK.

Wii got two out of three: Cheap, Different. The problem there was it was too far behind in terms of horsepower to last the whole gen and became less economical to develop for for 3rd parties.


EA, as with every other publisher, will port to whatever is selling. The truck is selling it.

 

[StevieP]

Nothing trumps mouse/keyboard controls. Steam controller from what I'v heard emulates mouse/keyboard sensitivity once you get use to it.
But it still won't trump mouse and keyboard. There are some games that require it, just like how fast paced action/adventure games require fast button response with controllers.
I think the evolution will be shipping a mouse/keyboard type device with a console similar to what razer has out.

Using IR pointer and sensors, is irrelevant now. This tech has existed in arcade's in a similar fashion, maybe not as advanced and accurate as seen in the Wii.
If it was the revolutionary step needed to go forward for control's, then we would have seen better adoption. But arcade's outside of a few games are pretty much dead. Motion controls outside of a few are dead.
Games that have and still will span the test of time don't have some gimmicky controller. I guess maybe you could put SUper mario Galaxy in there. But it's the only one I could think of outside of maybe pikmin 3.

Shadow of the Colossus , Mario 64, Zelda ocarina of time, Metroid Prime, Super Metroid, Mario Kart, Golden Eye, Half life etc. Didn't require gimmicks to be timeless. The same can be said for The last of Us. It's character's and story are what elevate that game to something that will be talked about for years to come.

Game controls need to evolve I agree, and part of that is on developers, and platform holders. But if these advancements you claim that are the true evolution in controls are not being adopted by gamer's because they are "babies". I think you are way off base in your assumption when evolution in games has shown physical buttons will more than likely trump some IR, or touch screen type device for precision controls. I don't see Pro/ casual fight fans using tablet's or some kind of steam controller to play Street fighter, guilty gear.
The advancements actually have come, in the form of a touch pad, built in voice commands, but if there is no demand for these type of controls, why force them upon people?
Having a interactive screen on your controller I think is the natural progression along with slowly going the way of the steam controller with mouse like sensitivity for your control's.

But calling people "whiny babies", is very short sighted when looking at how many of these advancements have been out in the industry, but are not adopted. And that's because people haven't been given a reason to use them. Maybe when we see competitive RTS games on consoles, we might see some changes in controller's. But until then physical buttons are here to stay.

I personally prefer mouse and keyboard above all, but you can't sell a console with them. The wiimote also had the advantage of having an analog stick, which improves controllable movement. As an example now, on the occasional time I play babbies first console fps (I mean battlefront) on PC I have to break out my 360 or xb1 pad while I'm flying because the KBM flight controls just don't make sense to me. It was the opposite for me with gta v. I used the 360 pad for world navigation but whenever I had to shoot anything I would have to switch to KBM because the pad is so so bad at aiming.

I haven't yet purchased a steam pad, but i know it's a huge improvement on the hot garbage that is the dual analog pad so it's just a matter of time.

Fact is, the Wii remote + nunchuck using IR is the closest we've gotten to a usable control scheme on consoles for first and third person games. And the fact is that both gamers and developers being too resistant to change (aka "whiny babies") are why it didn't see wider adoption among the hardcore, not to mention the Wii being an SD console. Nintendo themselves are also responsible for mostly casting them aside instead of improving them. You can whine about subjectivity in those statements as well, certainly, but objectively there is proof of those statements in the form of the algorithms *required* to make the dual analog pad usable at all. These algorithms aren't present with devices that have more accurate aiming.

I'm hoping that at least somebody takes some cues from the steam controller at the very least when it comes to their next gen pads. Whether that's Nintendo or someone else I don't care. But standard dual analog is absolutely old hat/junk and I'm honestly tired of having so many games in the most popular genres designed around its limitations, using cheating mechanisms to attempt to mask its deficiencies. This patent doesn't give me confidence in that, considering there are sticks in the photos. There is a reason that improved motion control is going to be big (and default) when it comes to VR. It's because it's *better*.

 

[Mpl90]

Here:

On the shoulder buttons: So buttons could be on the back.



Here might be a controller version similar to this but w/out the screen:

Grips removable?

Finally, this one makes it sound like a new Gamepad/terminal to be used w/ the "supplemental computing device" from the other recent patent:

...Maybe Refershment.01 is on the money when he thinks this is a fusion of the Wiimote and the Gamepad, after all.

 

[Fourth Storm]

...Maybe Refershment.01 is on the money when he thinks this is a fusion of the Wiimote and the Gamepad, after all.

Hey, did he say that before I did? Haha, but yeah, this is what I am thinking.

 

[Nanashrew]

Here:

On the shoulder buttons: So buttons could be on the back.



Here might be a controller version similar to this but w/out the screen:

Grips removable?

Finally, this one makes it sound like a new Gamepad/terminal to be used w/ the "supplemental computing device" from the other recent patent:

This is really cool. Makes, my idea more believable of being like a traditional controller but with some buttons on the back like paddles and it even has the scroll wheel part in this!

EDIT: also yeah, i can see the Wiimote x gamepad fusion too.

 

[-Horizon-]

Way back when in the early speculation threads I was trumpeting that I felt the console would come with a screened controller to keep compatibility between legacy games and to bridge the interface gap between NX handheld and NX console, but if they couldn't find a way to bring cost down on the controller it would come at the expense of console power.

That was way before the patents of helper devices came out. Since then, I maintain my earlier position, and figure the way they are going to keep cost down is with modular upgrades via those helper devices.

You mean the cloud thing? I'm still pretty interested in what happens with that.

weird gimmicky controller shit is the opposite of developer friendly, that's the problem.

forces devs to expend resources in order to create nintendo exclusive shit. they don't have to worry about that kind of stuff with pc/xbone/ps4.

if you're nintendo, good luck convincing EA to waste time porting FIFA to NX if they're selling an affordable, "different" 2nd choice console. they won't even bother.

But...developers don't have to use the Wii U gamepad screen. Some games just keep it blank. Isn't a bigger problem with the system the fact that porting is more difficult because of architecture differences or something and that the Wii U is still a gen behind?

 

[Anth0ny]

....Wii did OK.

Wii got two out of three: Cheap, Different. The problem there was it was too far behind in terms of horsepower to last the whole gen and became less economical to develop for for 3rd parties.


EA, as with every other publisher, will port to whatever is selling. The truck is selling it.

But even the Wii, which sold 100 million units, got garbage third party support. Shovelware. B-team efforts. I have no interest in another Wii-like effort. If Nintendo pulls that shit again with NX (cheap, different) and it manages to sell well, they would see similar, Wii-esque third party support. Which was terrible.

The world has changed since the Wii generation. Back then, "cheap, different" dominated in sales. Today, "cheap, different" is the Wii U and it bombs, while the more expensive, traditional, powerful consoles DOMINATE.

I really think if Nintendo goes down the cheap and different route AGAIN with the NX, they are setting themselves up for failure. The market for a cheap and different console is playing games for free on their phones. The market for $60 games on a $300 piece of hardware that hooks up to a TV is still there and willing to buy. Why build something for the former, who will never buy a dedicated home console again?

But...developers don't have to use the Wii U gamepad screen. Some games just keep it blank. Isn't a bigger problem with the system the fact that porting is more difficult because of architecture differences or something and that the Wii U is still a gen behind?

yeah, that is the bigger problem. and it will continue to be the problem as long as nintendo keeps making these underpowered consoles with gimmicky controllers.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Hey, did he say that before I did? Haha, but yeah, this is what I am thinking.

i think he refers to the split design that Nintendo has been resting on from like years now.

Talking about been on the money look at this thread and then see the final Steam controller:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=475774

Anyway, you haven't been specific about a Wii Remote/Gamepad match. So if you could please explain XD

 

[Neoxon]

But even the Wii, which sold 100 million units, got garbage third party support. Shovelware. B-team efforts. I have no interest in another Wii-like effort. If Nintendo pulls that shit again with NX (cheap, different) and it manages to sell well, they would see similar, Wii-esque third party support. Which was terrible.

The world has changed since the Wii generation. Back then, "cheap, different" dominated in sales. Today, "cheap, different" is the Wii U and it bombs, while the more expensive, traditional, powerful consoles DOMINATE.

I really think if Nintendo goes down the cheap and different route AGAIN with the NX, they are setting themselves up for failure. The market for a cheap and different console is playing games for free on their phones. The market for $60 games on a $300 piece of hardware that hooks up to a TV is still there and willing to buy. Why build something for the former, who will never buy a dedicated home console again?

But the problem is that the audience for a powerful expensive console is also gone for this generation. Had it been the start of a new generation for Sony & Microsoft, maybe Nintendo would have a chance. But for now, said audience are mostly secured with the PS4 & the Xbox One. And even then, the NX Handheld will likely pull most of the weight when it comes to NX Platform sales for both hardware & software.

 

[Nanashrew]

You mean the cloud thing? I'm still pretty interested in what happens with that.


But...developers don't have to use the Wii U gamepad screen. Some games just keep it blank. Isn't a bigger problem with the system the fact that porting is more difficult because of architecture differences or something and that the Wii U is still a gen behind?

Architecture and being a gen behind is one of the bigger issues for devs. Recently, we're seeing Nintendo join Kronos, and their dev portal has been redone overall. They're in the process of streamlining everything. I doubt NX will be all that different architecturally from other systems when it releases.

 

[mrklaw]

Nothing trumps mouse/keyboard controls. Steam controller from what I'v heard emulates mouse/keyboard sensitivity once you get use to it.
But it still won't trump mouse and keyboard. There are some games that require it, just like how fast paced action/adventure games require fast button response with controllers.
I think the evolution will be shipping a mouse/keyboard type device with a console similar to what razer has out.

Using IR pointer and sensors, is irrelevant now. This tech has existed in arcade's in a similar fashion, maybe not as advanced and accurate as seen in the Wii.
If it was the revolutionary step needed to go forward for control's, then we would have seen better adoption. But arcade's outside of a few games are pretty much dead. Motion controls outside of a few are dead.
Games that have and still will span the test of time don't have some gimmicky controller. I guess maybe you could put SUper mario Galaxy in there. But it's the only one I could think of outside of maybe pikmin 3.

Shadow of the Colossus , Mario 64, Zelda ocarina of time, Metroid Prime, Super Metroid, Mario Kart, Golden Eye, Half life etc. Didn't require gimmicks to be timeless. The same can be said for The last of Us. It's character's and story are what elevate that game to something that will be talked about for years to come.

Game controls need to evolve I agree, and part of that is on developers, and platform holders. But if these advancements you claim that are the true evolution in controls are not being adopted by gamer's because they are "babies". I think you are way off base in your assumption when evolution in games has shown physical buttons will more than likely trump some IR, or touch screen type device for precision controls. I don't see Pro/ casual fight fans using tablet's or some kind of steam controller to play Street fighter, guilty gear.
The advancements actually have come, in the form of a touch pad, built in voice commands, but if there is no demand for these type of controls, why force them upon people?
Having a interactive screen on your controller I think is the natural progression along with slowly going the way of the steam controller with mouse like sensitivity for your control's.

But calling people "whiny babies", is very short sighted when looking at how many of these advancements have been out in the industry, but are not adopted. And that's because people haven't been given a reason to use them. Maybe when we see competitive RTS games on consoles, we might see some changes in controller's. But until then physical buttons are here to stay.

Mouse is better than analog stick for aiming in a shooter.
Analog stick is better than keyboard for movement
Analog sticks and triggers are better than M&KB for vehicle control

So actually a few things trump M&KB, it isn't a universally good control system. Arguably for a self contained control system for a home console, the standard dual analog setup is pretty damn good. I can see an argument for a steam controller style trackpad as an alternative to the right stick, but not as a complete replacement.

 

[Hubble]

The gampad is actually a good idea tho. Off-Tv play is my favourite feature this generation. It's just a shame that they didn't bother to make more games that focused on using it.

The Wii U Gamepad is just way too big to gain acceptance out of consumers for a home console. The awkwardness and its size scared many people away even from the kiosks.

 

[Nanashrew]

The Wii U Gamepad is just way too big to gain acceptance out of consumers for a home console. The awkwardness and its size scared many people away even from the kiosks.

That's why a free form display is so much better. It can be cut to any shape or size. The Sharp patent for the display that Nintendo will likely be using also brings up better efficiency so I hope this means longer battery life too.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Mouse is better than analog stick for aiming in a shooter.
Analog stick is better than keyboard for movement
Analog sticks and triggers are better than M&KB for vehicle control

So actually a few things trump M&KB, it isn't a universally good control system. Arguably for a self contained control system for a home console, the standard dual analog setup is pretty damn good. I can see an argument for a steam controller style trackpad as an alternative to the right stick, but not as a complete replacement.

im in agreement mostly.

But for the highlighted don't you mean the opposite? The left analog stick is the one i find hard to substitue for a trackpad, since for locomotion and enviroment navigation the stick with it's resistance feels great even to this day. But for the right stick? Since it's main use these days is camera control i could easily see it been suplanted by a touch screen or trackpad.

 

[cakefoo]

What's the NX supposed to be-- handheld? TV console? All I know is GAF keeps saying, "It's not a hybrid."

 

[James Scott]

What's the NX supposed to be-- handheld? TV console? All I know is GAF keeps saying, "It's not a hybrid."

We don't know. Could be one or the other. There's one of each coming and they are supposed to be easy to port across

 

[Fourth Storm]

i think he refers to the split design that Nintendo has been resting on from like years now.

Talking about been on the money look at this thread and then see the final Steam controller:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=475774

Anyway, you haven't been specific about a Wii Remote/Gamepad match. So if you could please explain XD

Nice call on the squeezable grips. I think I remember that thread and it's definitely a welcome feature.

On the bolded, I make the comparison, because I think the grip portion could be an attachment/shell and the controller will be in the shape of an ellipse. Like the Wii Remote, it could contain motion sensors and be held horizontally or vertically and like the Gamepad, it would contain a touch screen and dual analogs.

 

[Anth0ny]

But the problem is that the audience for a powerful expensive console is also gone for this generation. Had it been the start of a new generation for Sony & Microsoft, maybe Nintendo would have a chance. But for now, said audience are mostly secured with the PS4 & the Xbox One. And even then, the NX Handheld will likely pull most of the weight when it comes to NX Platform sales for both hardware & software.

You know, I've been hearing this argument for a while now. Months, even. In many NX threads. Whenever I bring up the "Nintendo should go after the PS4/Xbone market" argument, I get the "But those people are already on PS4/Xbone!".

Well lets look at last month's NPD sales:

PS4 - 1,539,000
Xbox One - 1,296,000

That's a lot of fucking people buying into PS4 and Xbone "late" in the generation. "Mostly secured" you say?

I see absolutely no reason why a Nintendo console with great marketing, equivalent power, equivalent third party support, equivalent price and a bunch of awesome, first party Nintendo exclusives couldn't get in on a huge chunk of those 2.8 million consoles sold in a single month.

Instead, they're fucking off in the corner with their weird, different gimmick controller, selling a pathetic 240,000 even though the Wii U is cheaper than PS4 and Xbone and comes bundled with two incredible games. It's almost like the market has spoken and they aren't interested in a weird, cheaper, secondary console! They're willing to pay a bit more for cutting edge consoles with strong third party support!

but naw nintendo totally shouldn't go after the market keeping the console industry afloat

 

[Neoxon]

You know, I've been hearing this argument for a while now. Months, even. In many NX threads. Whenever I bring up the "Nintendo should go after the PS4/Xbone market" argument, I get the "But those people are already on PS4/Xbone!".

Well lets look at last month's NPD sales:

PS4 - 1,539,000
Xbox One - 1,296,000

That's a lot of fucking people buying into PS4 and Xbone "late" in the generation. "Mostly secured" you say?

I see absolutely no reason why a Nintendo console with great marketing, equivalent power, equivalent third party support, equivalent price and a bunch of awesome, first party Nintendo exclusives couldn't get in on a huge chunk of those 2.8 million consoles sold in a single month.

Instead, they're fucking off in the corner with their weird, different gimmick controller, selling a pathetic 240,000 even though the Wii U is cheaper than PS4 and Xbone and comes bundled with two incredible games. It's almost like the market has spoken and they aren't interested in a weird, cheaper, secondary console! They're willing to pay a bit more for cutting edge consoles with strong third party support!

but naw nintendo totally shouldn't go after the market keeping the console industry afloat

But the problem is said third party support won't come back for a long time, regardless of what Nintendo does. And the few who would be on-board would either be indies or only be in it for the NX Handheld (I'm referring to the Japanese third parties). Basically it'd take Nintendo making mature games for years until their audience acquires a taste for said games for the third parties to return, & that'd take a while.

 

[_PsiFire_]

Then how would the Street Fighter style work (3 punches, 3 kicks). You wouldn't be able to use moves that require all 3 punches or all 3 kicks (like, say, Zangief's Double Lariat) with this style. Again, this is likely not final (if Nintendo goes through with it), so I hope they include regular buttons in the final product.

Instead of all three buttons at once you press a single direction.

 

[Anth0ny]

But the problem is said third party support won't come back for a long time, regardless of what Nintendo does. And the few who would be on-board would either be indies or only be in it for the NX Handheld (I'm referring to the Japanese third parties). Basically it'd take Nintendo making mature games for years until their audience acquires a taste for said games for the third parties to return, & that'd take a while.

gotta start somewhere

or keep going down the path of the wii u and continue to get gamecube/wii u sales, or worse...

 

[Neoxon]

Instead of all three buttons at once you press a single direction.

And what about pressing 2 buttons for stuff like grabs, V-Skills, V-Triggers, Focus Attack, etc.?

 

[Fourth Storm]

And what about pressing 2 buttons for stuff like grabs, V-Skills, V-Triggers, Focus Attack, etc.?

You couldn't play Street Fighter with just a Wii Remote either. That didn't stop Nintendo from making it. There will be arcade sticks and I also fully expect Wii U Pro support.

 

[Neoxon]

You couldn't play Street Fighter with just a Wii Remote either. That didn't stop Nintendo from making it. There will be arcade sticks and I also fully expect Wii U Pro support.

And TvC played like a hot mess on the Wii Remote & Nunchuck. Granted, you could get a stick that acted as a Classic Controller, but my point remains the same. You'd limit control options for no good reason when you could simply just add the regular buttons to a form factor that already resembles a regular controller. This is the scenario I'm hoping for since, again, patents usually don't resemble their final counterparts 1:1.

gotta start somewhere

or keep going down the path of the wii u and continue to get gamecube/wii u sales, or worse...

But it'd take years & would guarantee that the first few iterations of NX Consoles would be failures. And while I did say that the NX Handheld would be pulling most of the weight, it'd be pulling essentially all of the weight in this scenario until the Nintendo audience acquires said taste for mature AAA content by, say, 2026.

 

[Nanashrew]

I do hope Nintendo packs in 2 controllers instead of 1. I'd like it if all hardware manufacturers did tbh.

 

[James Scott]

I had mentioned in the NX threads that gimmicks are fine it's just that the price and tech need to be there as well.
3D didn't scare people off, the price did.
The Wii U hasn't dropped in price because it's too expensive to manufacture.
They can't charge a lot of money for a weak device, that should be obvious.
So I'd gladly accept any gameplay innovations they can muster but they need to be careful not to gimp the hardware for dumb reasons like wanting a small size and low power consumption.
It either needs to be weak but cheap or high tech And competively priced.
They can cater to both markets with their handheld and console divisions selling the same game to both but what they tried with the Wii U didn't work.
Hopefully this controller doesn't repeate the same mistake (or if it's a handheld that's fine too)

Spoiler

theyll also need to fix their marketing but that's unrelated to the topic at hand

 

[ShockingAlberto]

You know, I've been hearing this argument for a while now. Months, even. In many NX threads. Whenever I bring up the "Nintendo should go after the PS4/Xbone market" argument, I get the "But those people are already on PS4/Xbone!".

Well lets look at last month's NPD sales:

PS4 - 1,539,000
Xbox One - 1,296,000

That's a lot of fucking people buying into PS4 and Xbone "late" in the generation. "Mostly secured" you say?

I see absolutely no reason why a Nintendo console with great marketing, equivalent power, equivalent third party support, equivalent price and a bunch of awesome, first party Nintendo exclusives couldn't get in on a huge chunk of those 2.8 million consoles sold in a single month.

Instead, they're fucking off in the corner with their weird, different gimmick controller, selling a pathetic 240,000 even though the Wii U is cheaper than PS4 and Xbone and comes bundled with two incredible games. It's almost like the market has spoken and they aren't interested in a weird, cheaper, secondary console! They're willing to pay a bit more for cutting edge consoles with strong third party support!

but naw nintendo totally shouldn't go after the market keeping the console industry afloat

The controller isn't why the Wii U isn't selling well and other systems are.

The fact that the other two systems are more attractive is why the Wii U isn't selling well and other systems are.

 

[Nanashrew]

What's the NX supposed to be-- handheld? TV console? All I know is GAF keeps saying, "It's not a hybrid."

Multiple devices is the likely scenario going by Iwata's statements, a console and a handheld, but the current speculation is that if the library will be able to be shareable between the systems. The goal is to streamline development, and that if you've worked on the handheld, you'll likely understand the console and port them without any problems like Sakurai and other developers had to face when making a game for both systems.

I guess, you'd think of it like the PS4 and Vita except architecture and everything would be standardized like how Apple does with their devices so they can all communicate and be developed for regardless of specs.

 

[Sadist]

But the problem is said third party support won't come back for a long time, regardless of what Nintendo does. And the few who would be on-board would either be indies or only be in it for the NX Handheld (I'm referring to the Japanese third parties). Basically it'd take Nintendo making mature games for years until their audience acquires a taste for said games for the third parties to return, & that'd take a while.

Flawed thinking. If EA and the others aren't there from the start, they won't come at all. You cultivate from the start, not mid-generation or even after that.

 

[Bert]

OK, here's my guess.

NX is this thing at it's core. Basically a touchscreen with sticks coming out of it, shoulder buttons/wheels and paddles. Removable grips.

You can stream to a TV dongle as is, and connect to some kind of cloud service to boost performance/stream games.

Then you can buy a box for your TV that plugs into ethernet and power and provides local processing power, upping the capabilities of the console.

So something like £150 for this. Another £100/£150 for the TV box.

I think a smart move, if they want to keep the touchscreen for second pads, would be some kind of dumb terminal universal case for phones with just the sticks, the shoulders/paddles and some kind of app/chip to connect to the console. Although they might go the Wii U route and allow Wiimotes and the like to connect. Possibly even a potential VR unit in the future using similar tech and adding in some more processing power. This pad looks decent for VR like the DS4 is.

Or, it's nothing like this at all. Who knows, it's Nintendo.

 

[Anth0ny]

The controller isn't why the Wii U isn't selling well and other systems are.

The fact that the other two systems are more attractive is why the Wii U isn't selling well and other systems are.

and why is the Wii U unattractive?

 

[Neoxon]

Flawed thinking. If EA and the others aren't there from the start, they won't come at all. You cultivate from the start, not mid-generation or even after that.

They won't come because the audience for their games aren't there. And said audience won't buy those AAA third party games because they're mainly in it for Nintendo games. There's a reason why I said it'll take years & multiple iterations of NX devices.

 

[The_Lump]

and why is the Wii U unattractive?

Bad marketing, mainly. That and being too far behind the industry standard in terms of processing power.

 

[Pifje]

https://youtu.be/nbg6Z3CJRnI

Just leaving that here.

Some of those patent slides contained a mentioning of haptic touch if I remember correctly.

 

[-Horizon-]

Architecture and being a gen behind is one of the bigger issues for devs. Recently, we're seeing Nintendo join Kronos, and their dev portal has been redone overall. They're in the process of streamlining everything. I doubt NX will be all that different architecturally from other systems when it releases.

Good sign of things to come hopefully.

Flawed thinking. If EA and the others aren't there from the start, they won't come at all. You cultivate from the start, not mid-generation or even after that.

How does one go about cultivating 3rd party support when they'll just throw late ports and test games and then skidoo after?

This is not something you can fix in one or two gens.

 

[Anth0ny]

Bad marketing, mainly. That and being too far behind the industry standard in terms of processing power.

right

and why are they too far behind in processing power?

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

No physical buttons then? Uh...dunno how I feel about that.

 

[heidern]

and why is the Wii U unattractive?

$300-$350 was too expensive for casuals and the Sony/MS audience want better graphics. The touchscreen differentiator also isn't actually different or exciting since it is already available on DS, 3DS, mobile and tablets(not to mention Nintendo themselves criminally failed to make much use of it).

Nintendo will likely succeed in keeping their core console fans(~15m) but expanding to casuals and/or technophile audiences is effectively going into new territory so is by definition high risk and therefore having high chance of failure. If they want the former they need either a low price or something truly groundbreaking, if they want the latter they need a console that is half a generation ahead of PS4/XB1.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Nice call on the squeezable grips. I think I remember that thread and it's definitely a welcome feature.

Not just the paddle/grips, in that thread the scrollable wheels for bumpers and customizable profile and input layouts (like Steam and PS4 have) are referenced XD

On the bolded, I make the comparison, because I think the grip portion could be an attachment/shell and the controller will be in the shape of an ellipse. Like the Wii Remote, it could contain motion sensors and be held horizontally or vertically and like the Gamepad, it would contain a touch screen and dual analogs.

Thanks for explaing. What you proposed would make sense as follows:

1)NX is first released as a handheld.

2) LAter a cheap/cheaper set top box with the exact same architecture but with higher specs is relesed.

3)The set top box is rather bare bones in features to keep the price down. It doesn't even have a media slot. As an option a cheap mechanical hard drive for massive storage.

4)The game slot is on the handheld.Games are stored in the handheld memory. Basically you arrive home, plug the grips and insert the game in the handheld. The box works in conjunction with handheld givinging extra processing power to display the game at higher resolution on your TV.

5) Finish the play sesion, remove the grips and throw the handheld in your bag and away you go.

6)It would work as the Wii U now does. But the concept is more polished and useful.

7)Edit: the problem will lay in if there's a segment of the base that wouldn't want a NIntendo handheld for some reason. But given the sales data (3DS vs Wii U), this wouldn't be a significant base. Maybe adding a 2nd set box? But that would make things less elegant.

That would be what makes sense for the modular design. This would all hang in how cheap they could make the box, cheap enough and it is a really atactive solution.

 

[Sadist]

They won't come because the audience for their games aren't there. And said audience won't buy those AAA third party games because they're mainly in it for Nintendo games. There's a reason why I said it'll take years & multiple iterations of NX devices.

Well of it's not there, why start after a few iterations of NX hardware? This is the kind of thinking Nintendo needs to avoid from the start. They need to start over again and take baby steps. But that requires getting back the sport games from EA for example.

If you start with just indies and small selection of third parties it's over before it even started.

 

[Anth0ny]

$300-$350 was too expensive for casuals and the Sony/MS audience want better graphics. The touchscreen differentiator also isn't actually different or exciting since it is already available on DS, 3DS, mobile and tablets(not to mention Nintendo themselves criminally failed to make much use of it).

Nintendo will likely succeed in keeping their core console fans(~15m) but expanding to casuals and/or technophile audiences is effectively going into new territory so is by definition high risk and therefore having high chance of failure. If they want the former they need either a low price or something truly groundbreaking, if they want the latter they need a console that is half a generation ahead of PS4/XB1.

it was priced at $350 in the first place because the gamepad was fucking expensive. Nintendo was LOSING money on every console sold, something they've never done before.

the console was underpowered because bundling a box as powerful as an xbone AND including the gamepad would probably come out to $499, like the Xbone was priced with Kinect. and that was never going to work.

A top of the line, third party friendly Nintendo console priced at $350-$399 with a standard, inexpensive controller would be an attractive product imo. judging by the current market landscape, I think many would agree.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

and why is the Wii U unattractive?

Because NIntendo systems don't sell third party games and haven't since 1995. Thus, third party games don't come to those systems, people don't buy those systems, and then further third party games continue not to come.

None of this would change if it was as powerful as a PS4. It might change the order a little, maybe, but Nintendo as a technological competitor isn't a competitor.

 

[Neoxon]

Well of it's not there, why start after a few iterations of NX hardware? This is the kind of thinking Nintendo needs to avoid from the start. They need to start over again and take baby steps. But that requires getting back the sport games from EA for example.

If you start with just indies and small selection of third parties it's over before it even started.

It's not like Nintendo has much of a choice, it's an issue of their audience being those who only want Nintendo software & games similar to what Nintendo offers. Regardless of if the NX Console is a technical beast, this won't change. Maybe Nintendo can get the sports games back, but most of the NX Platform's third party support will come from indies & the Japanese.

 

[Mpl90]

Hey, did he say that before I did? Haha, but yeah, this is what I am thinking.

Actually, a few weeks ago, I started toying with such idea in my mind, but I didn't know how it could've been made correctly ehough. Free-form screen would allow to get both Off-TV and implementing more interactions with the game's world without restrictions far more. Especially if the touch panel is haptic (the technology I think Nintendo could implement next gen, since it's, literally, the next generation of touch screens). Guide lines around circle pads, helping in detecting what to do with what inputs, touch buttons that can be arranged as much as you want to allow for the most comfortable setup for everyone, maps and menus right on the controller/remote...and haptic would allow much better tangible feedback for touch buttons and elements in games (weapons, fur, faces, etc.). Very versatile, different ways of using it, and actually more fascinating for the more casual customer than a mere GamePad with limited interaction possibilities (compared to this setup, I mean). Of coure, there would be a new Nunchuk as well, with some other buttons, and (possibly) wirelessly connected with the Controller.

There are still concerns about it, though, like...where the D-Pad would go? And the A/B/X/Y ones? Envisioning this as both a standard controller and a Wiimote-like, you need to place them in a way that they're reachable when you're playing "traditionally" / Off-TV and that they're not obtrusive when you're playing by using it as a remote. For example: if you place the D-Pad right behind the circle pad when you see the controller horizontally, you'd have the D-Pad attached to the circle pad when in vertical. That can create usage problems. Especially considering how both circle pads should be placed centered, allowing both left and right thumbs to reach it. Placing it under the Circle Pad, and slightly more towards the inner part of the front face would partially solve this, but not completely. A possible solution would be putting the D-Pad on the Nunchuk, right under its own circle pad (Nunchuk would, again, present a different shape from the Controller/Remote). But that would require Circle Pads to be as precise as possible, since, when using the controller for Off Tv or as a semi-normal controller, you have to rely on them even for games that could be better played with D-Pads. Now, since the patented circle pads seem to have interesting usages (like for inputting keyboards' letters/numbers), or to select in Skyward Sword-like menus by clicking on them, maybe it's actually possible? Just a sincere question.

I suppose placing A/B/X/Y buttons could be easier, done in different ways. I suppose even placing them all under the other circle pad (more traditional), the one that doesn't get used when in remote mode could be fiesable, since we're assuming the controller to be long enough to accomodate the game displayed between the control zones, in 16:9, in Off-TV mode. The hand wouldn't be distuberd by them.

Oh, of course, behind the controller, there would be indeed one or two supplementary buttons (like the B button on the Wiimote), hidden in the shell when it's used as a controller and usable when it's in remote mode.

Just a first, quick thought about it. Free to correct my idea/fix it/scratch it. I could even draw a sketch to see better if it's possible/comfortable, but I don't know if I'll have time in these next days.

EDIT: I'd really like your opinion on this, even if it's quite long, so I know it's not an attractive reading XD

 

[Nanashrew]

No physical buttons then? Uh...dunno how I feel about that.

Patent is only discussing in ways the screen could be utilized. It's non-limiting.

Fourthstorm has been digging further into the patent and even found that this could have buttons or paddles on the back of the controller. There are also some images that The_Lump posted showing multiple cuts of the screen, even one where the screen would not be under your thumb but an ideal place for buttons.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188957189&postcount=854

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188839334&postcount=610

 

[Vena]

Question: Do people and companies know when they file a patent approximately how long it will take until it goes public? All these recent discoveries almost scream of Nintendo trying to covertly build hype without making any proper announcements.

people dont know a thing about patents though and how to interpret them, just look at this thread. So I think thats certainly not the case.

The lack of comprehension isn't what would make this a peculiar tactic for controlled leaks. Its the dissemination of information from people like us or people on YouTube (or otherwise).

These leaks are spreading into podcasts, and heck even Jeff (Gerstmann) was excited for what might be coming from all this information.

If they are doing this intentionally (not that I particularly think they are) they are doing it the right way. Its tantalizing because, otherwise, Nintendo is tight lipped but outside of Tamaki's early info that sent people into a panic, its been nothing but bizarre imagination since then.