YianGaruga
Banned
It's not about memorization at all. It's pattern recognition.
At some point you automatically hit the notes just by seeing them even on songs you have never played before, and its an amazing feeling
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The Stepmania segment from AGDQ 2016 is unbelievable
- Thread starter Tizoc
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At some point you automatically hit the notes just by seeing them even on songs you have never played before, and its an amazing feeling
The Bankslammer
Member
what, stuff like amplitude or rock band blitz? i don't see any reason why that should be excluded either, lol
it just feels like it's a term lacking perspective outside the pc sim community while specifically trying to exclude the pc sims they don't like. like, what if someone wanted to stream superbeat xonic or project diva from their console? jubeat or crossbeats from their tablet? hell, what if streaming from arcades becomes more prominent/doable and we get streams of maimai or beatstream?
the whole thing's just silly to me. the great thing about rhythm games is that it doesn't take a huge community to sustain a game, so people can play exactly what they want. telling people their game is worse or invalid takes that away and only shrinks the community.
StarCreator says it better than i can but StepMania is such a slim sliver of what rhythm games have to offer that it's not fair to either SM or rhythm games at large to equate it as some kind of apex of rhythm games as opposed to simply one direction they can take
StarCreator
Member
The idea that you have to employ heavy memorization to play a rhythm game at high levels is a huge persistent falsehood. People hugely underestimate what they are capable of training themselves to do. I have no problem believing the players on the showcase were capable of performing at the level they did even when being presented with content they had never seen, let alone practiced.
Rhythm games at their highest levels come down to pattern recognition and muscle memory. There is almost never any rote memorization of note charts involved.
Yeah, we're on the same page here. It's toxic and backwards and self-defeating.
See:
Good post. As a shmup and pinball fan, I feel the same about these types of games - they can look very intimidating, but you can play them at a low level and still have a ton of fun.
Thank you, I had no idea you could play them like that - this makes them instantly more interesting to me!
Secret Character
Member
This.
I'm not trying to invalidate keyboard players, as it's still something they like and enjoy, but this is the upper limit of what Stepmania is and can do. I mean, there are files out there that the engine itself can't play and there are things constantly being made that are actually impossible to pass.
The other difference here is that Stepmania is nothing but user generated content. There isn't anything that is considered "official" regarding Stepmania. The same goes for Osu! and that could be the reason why a lot of Bemani players like to invalidate both communities.
Thank you for clearing up my misconceptions. I should have known better since I actually really enjoy Theatrhythm and Rhythm Tengoku is among my favourite series.
I guess these ultra-hard stepmania videos always were a huge turnoff to me. I love the general idea of rhythm games a lot, though.
Speaking in shooter terms, this would probably like someone showing you Touhou being played on Lunatic and saying "this is what all shmups are about!", something that looks completely uncomprehensible to the untrained eye.
I guess these ultra-hard stepmania videos always were a huge turnoff to me. I love the general idea of rhythm games a lot, though.
Speaking in shooter terms, this would probably like someone showing you Touhou being played on Lunatic and saying "this is what all shmups are about!", something that looks completely uncomprehensible to the untrained eye.
King Gilga
Member
Aren't you supposed to play these arrow games with your feet?
aspiegamer
Member
In terms of "uber difficulty" stuff, you can separate out the stepcharts into "stuff you can do with your feet" and "stuff you can't". Consider it separate game modes. This video is stuff of the later group, with strings at the 25-30 notes per second range and it can include inputs of 3 and 4 directions. Feet stuff can push 10ish notes per second and cannot be as diverse as the human body literally cannot contort in these ways. There is a little overlap with files that have handplants the player can actually do, but those are slower songs (relatively) and it's for style and not speed. A call back to the original arcade days and "freestyle" competitions. It will also break your wrists in 2 seconds if you don't know exactly what you're doing.
Originally this was based off of DDR where people used a lot of official DDR tracks and stepcharts, but over time it moved farther and farther off that to more custom stuff as people wanted harder content. There was no official timing or anything but there was at one point a huge shift into the non-feet files. This is pretty much when I gave up. My hands were were just too beat up to go faster. Even if I could read stuff I simply count not move quickly enough.
Wowfunhappy
Member
As you acknowledged yourself, Stepmania's popularity is due to Bemani making the real thing (DDR) virtually inaccessible outside of Japan. If Streetfighter was impossible to play legally inside of the US, perhaps a fighting game showcase would use Mugan, simply because the real thing isn't possible.
These AGDQ skill showcases are something very impressive. There was an equally impressive Tetris block from last year's AGDQ. I dabbled in a bit of Stepmania many years ago, but
it wasn't my cup of tea.
Bonus Video that was posted on GAF a while back: Stepmania makes some dude rage and destroy his room
I sucked ass
Bonus Video that was posted on GAF a while back: Stepmania makes some dude rage and destroy his room
gamechanger87
Member
From 17M on it gets crazy. I can't even understand how you do this.
https://youtu.be/BQYBzEreO5k?t=1034
https://youtu.be/BQYBzEreO5k?t=1034
Watched the VOD yesterday, crazy to believe that the charts are entirely sightread and not memorized, especially at those speeds.
But if that's the craziest Stepmania/ITG level you've seen, you haven't seen the "WinDEU Hates You" series. For example, this incredible absurdity featuring GLaDoS from Portal.
Haha, modded ITG is fun to watch.
But if that's the craziest Stepmania/ITG level you've seen, you haven't seen the "WinDEU Hates You" series. For example, this incredible absurdity featuring GLaDoS from Portal.
I've seen high level play of other rhythm games before and I still found the Stepmania segment to be entertaining. I'm glad other the other exhibitors and speedrunners were able to as well.
It's great that they can keep in perspective why the audience might find something entertaining. Its even better when speedrunners, even though they themselves have done what the current runner has done thousands of times, aren't completely drained of enthusiasm. Sometimes they even take it further by expressing with lots of emotion why these regular occurences are indeed still special instead of being a killjoy like you and others in this topic.
The Stepmania segment isnt taking anything away from other rhythm games. In fact if it weren't for that segment and the guys being enthusiastic about the Brain Power song I would never have comes across these guys playing one of the rhythm games you think is being snubbed:
https://youtu.be/6r6fn7YBJcw
Eventually I hope you'll realize that for most of the audience, none of these runners are stealing the spotlight away from similar games, that they are in fact doing their part to get people into each of these communities. The unfounded hype and praise you all think Stepmania received is helpign to ensure people keep watching and discovering more games. There isn't a better way to get the audience excited about a scene or genre than to showcase skillful play of something the audience has already played and intimately understands the basics of already.
Also you really don't give enough credit to DDR and what it's did for rhythm games outside of japan.
StarCreator
Member
I don't think you can claim to know what effect the showcase has on people's perception of the genre any more than I could. I based my feelings that showcasing something that is clearly an unpolished fan simulator on my own first reactions to seeing DDR at an anime convention back in 2000: it looked hard and unapproachable, and I didn't even want to try for that reason. I had to be forced to play DDR my first time in the privacy of another friend's home. Now, I literally own a DDR machine (and in fact, my kit is currently on loan to Tokyo Attack for AGDQ since they suffered a last minute problem with theirs) and several other arcade rhythm games which I keep at a local arcade for others to play.
It really can go either way, but I feel if the goal was to get more people into the genre, they should have demonstrated something that is more polished and can actually be acquired without having to commit copyright infringement. I don't name DDR since it's too hard an ask to ask gamers to buy peripherals these days, but I did put Superbeat: XONiC on the top of my recommended games list because I think it's the best the genre currently has to offer that you can just pick up and play right now.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
had zero idea that Stepmania was such a contentious subject lol
the run was cool, people were entertained, money was donated to charities as a result, that's what matters. Lets not gaf-politicize every single thing under the sun. find better shit to fight about plz
the run was cool, people were entertained, money was donated to charities as a result, that's what matters. Lets not gaf-politicize every single thing under the sun. find better shit to fight about plz
toddhunter
Member
For reference, when people complain and say that glitch based runs are really not that impressive or interesting?
This.
This.
Reporting!
veloxStrix
Banned
that some crazy fingering action forreal
I'm not pretending to. I'm disputing you post claiming how definitively detrimental the showcase was as if you speak for everyone and as if you can prove that nothing positive came from it.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
It wasn't. It was to get eyeballs on the stream by showcasing something cool and, therefore, encourage them to donate to the charity.
cj_iwakura
Member
Stepmania can be fun, but comparing it to proper rhythm games is silly.
That said, some stepmakers have done some works of art.
I've done a few projects too. It's fun, just doesn't beat the real thing. I've brought SM projects to hacked ITGs, and they're seldom fun on foot.
That said, some stepmakers have done some works of art.
I've done a few projects too. It's fun, just doesn't beat the real thing. I've brought SM projects to hacked ITGs, and they're seldom fun on foot.
I tried Osu a year or so back, I couldn't even attempt the higher difficulties because my keyboard doesn't register multiple key presses or something, my comp literally beeps at me. Also every song and link was like a decade old and I couldn't find any music I liked, let alone in a low difficulty setting. Everything was set to like 8 keys or dual keys or something like that. Haven't tried Stepmania since like the Windows Vista years. I like Rhythm Games like Gitaroo Man and if I had a handheld I would try the Theatrythm series but there just isn't anything out there for me on PC or PS4, to my knowledge at least.
AmaterasuOkami076
Member
Index >>>> Spread/4 key
StarCreator
Member
That isn't even something I said.
My main point of contention with the whole thing was why StepMania was somehow given license to run a showcase in a speedrun marathon, despite having no speedrun elements, effectively passing over every other rhythm game for the honor.
Deft Beck
Member
The PS4 just got the new Amplitude.
At first, I was a little irritated about the Stepmania showcase, feeling like it was something out of 2008. Then again, for the average viewer, it's probably compelling, and would drive them to check it out, as well as other rhythm games. It's not like it is invalidating the existence of more established, polished games.
Let's be welcoming and inclusive for a change.
Lmao I remember when I first clicked on that back in the day
I actually choreographed a really lame dance to Pump it Up Exceed 2 once. Unfortunately the arcade I played that game at was mostly frequented by a bunch of little kids who were consumed by other things so it was rare for someone to walk by and be super impressed.
adamantypants
Member
Rhythm game elitist checking in here.
For me, I got way into Stepmania edits for keyboard right as it was gaining traction. It started as edits to actual stepfiles that you could play in modded arcade cabinets and home cabinet setups. Eventually, people (at least around me) were easily passing the "hard" edits and started going bonkers to the point that it would be physically impossible to play these edits on an actual step pad. The community splintered in a few different ways; edits made to stay true to the "dance" game genre (it still looked fun to play), challenging edits (bar raping required), and keyboard edits (basically IIDX).
For me, I got way into Stepmania edits for keyboard right as it was gaining traction. It started as edits to actual stepfiles that you could play in modded arcade cabinets and home cabinet setups. Eventually, people (at least around me) were easily passing the "hard" edits and started going bonkers to the point that it would be physically impossible to play these edits on an actual step pad. The community splintered in a few different ways; edits made to stay true to the "dance" game genre (it still looked fun to play), challenging edits (bar raping required), and keyboard edits (basically IIDX).
Oh yeah I forgot about that game but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dG3CTkmTDE Does it get any harder than that? I liked the looks of Amplitude but it always looked boring to me. It has a demo luckily so I'll try it when I can.
YianGaruga
Banned
Probably because someone submitted it but no one else submitted any other rhythm games. So they thought it would be cool and people would like it
and people liked it. the end
StarCreator
Member
I think most people didn't think games that inherently can't be speedrun in a marathon format had a chance in the submission queue. I can't wait to see what ends up in the SGDQ submission queue because of this, personally.
cj_iwakura
Member
Because playing Stepmania takes serious skill, and it's fun to watch. Just because it's not IIDX or Pop'n or DJ MAX doesn't somehow make it less intensive, and I've been playing rhythm games for decades.
I love that song in Amplitude, but it's one of the easier ones. Check out Red Giant for an example of a harder song.
It's also probably because it's one of two easy/convenient (and legit) options to set up on PC. The other being Osu.
There was Tetris previously on AGDQ. While undoubtedly skilled Tetris play has an element of speed to it, it's not exactly a game that you speedrun per se.
Like, honestly, (sorry for being a little stupid here) I still don't understand why you're so up in arms about this. One rhythm game is showcased as a side event. Regardless of if it's a community-driven spinoff with no official release. That's it.
And I'm with YianGaruga here. If you want something else like Xonic getting more exposure, (I do, too) this is something we could have worked on prior to the fact, not after.
I think rhythm games are in a much healthier spot than they've been in years. GHL is out. RB4 is out. Amplitude just came out. If western games with timing windows you can drive a bus through aren't your cup of tea, Xonic is out, and it's awesome. IIDX is going strong, and has a (locked-to-JP-lol) PC version that just launched. P4D, Miku, Theathrythm have all enjoyed varying amounts of success and continued play. That's not even touching the mobile or arcade scene, with newer shit like Chuunithm, etc. or if arcades are a little out of range, mobile has stuff like Jubeat, Cytus, Deemo, O2Jam, DJMAX, and a whole slew of lesser clones. Rayark is coming out with another new music game soon.
YianGaruga
Banned
After the success of TASBot and Tetris there will definitely be more of this.
And to be constructive: Why not contact GDQ and give some feedback, advice or even try to organize something? You seem to know your rhythm games and I don't see why they wouldn't be receptive. At the very least I'm sure this wasn't malicious and maybe they just didn't know any better. Rhythm games aren't traditional speedgames after all.
I agree with Star Creator. it does feel like a slap in the face after so many years of trying to get recognition and the first thing shown off is keyboard charts.
If there's one thing I am happy that any sort of dance game thing got this amount of recognition for once. So I'll set aside my personal feelings on the matter. If this is what it takes to get a showcase of ITG/DDR/PIU pad play at an GDQ then so be it. I think people would find that immensely more interesting seeing how far we can push our physical and mental limits with those charts.
Also I can't imagine how Chris Danford must feel. Dude is a legend for us dance gamers.
He created Stepmania more or less as a college project and look what it has grown into over the years.
If there's one thing I am happy that any sort of dance game thing got this amount of recognition for once. So I'll set aside my personal feelings on the matter. If this is what it takes to get a showcase of ITG/DDR/PIU pad play at an GDQ then so be it. I think people would find that immensely more interesting seeing how far we can push our physical and mental limits with those charts.
Also I can't imagine how Chris Danford must feel. Dude is a legend for us dance gamers.
He created Stepmania more or less as a college project and look what it has grown into over the years.
Shadow Hog
Member
Fast!
Faster!
Too fast!
Faster!
Too fast!
bobawesome
Member
I wonder how many walls he had to destroy to get to this level.
Hope this gets more then 7 replies like mine did last year (._. )
PetriP-TNT
Member
I used to play Stepmania on keyboard but had to stop because I was seeing the friggin' arrows when I closed my eyes or were sleeping
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