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Valve: Steam has taught us competitors are irrevelant for making business decisions.

Spirited

Mine is pretty and pink
valve : "competitors are irrelevant"
you : "consumers are irrelevant"
rofl
Yeah.

I still don't understand what some people have for problem with steam and will try to smear as much shit as possible on them.


Ontopic: I do hope they atleast look at competitors and see what they do so that they also can improve in departments where they are lacking in compared to competitors.
But in VR? Well they seem to run their own race and I'm fine with them doing it that way.
 

IMBored

Member
We'll sell our VR for 5000 bucks, then immediately have a sale for 900 bucks. Sales are what's important, the rest doesn't matter.
 

KNT-Zero

Member
I thought it was an interesting point of view until I saw this:

Chet disagrees with the notion that the Vive needs a AAA killer app and calls the app store the killer app of the iPhone.

Which means they could be aiming for a dedicated marketplace for Vive, which hopefully won't end up being the clusterfuck the app store already is (content wise).
 

Durante

Member
I still don't understand what some people have for problem with steam and will try to smear as much shit as possible on them.
Right. I can deal with people hating something, but resorting to fabrication to make their point just isn't painting a very convincing picture.
 

OBias

Member
This isn't really hubris. Business can be a non-zero-sum game where wealth is created by doing your own thing and not taken away from other market participants through competition.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Well it certainly has worked out for them over the years. From games to Steam and its features, they try all kinds of stuff that no one else bothered with. Not knowing the business side of those decisions though, no idea if they paid no attention at all. For example Dota2 was surely seeing the initial outlook of success of League.

I think Greenlight has flooded the store with crap at the same time.

It has, but has also brought some fantastic content. Similar is true for early access. The apporach of Steam to not prevent that but to attempt to simply filter out the crap, for me at least seems to work for the most part. If you are someone that blindly assumes everything in any store will be excellent, then Steam would definitely disappoint
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Actually no, it's getting better and better.
  • Yes, support is still objectively awful, but that's not getting worse. At best its stagnating on a low level, and if you want to put a more positive spin on it it seems like people have actually gotten somewhat better turn-around times on it recently.

Yeah, when my account was restricted the other week, Valve restored full functionality roughly 19 hours after I submitted my ticket... but my current ticket, concerning Estetiikka having around a gig of completely unnecessary redists attached to it, has been sitting idle for three days now, so it seems to me that Valve's efforts to improve support have worked for matters considered particularly urgent, however response times for more general tickets remain unchanged. "Two steps forward, one step back", if you will.
 

Pranay

Member
Microsoft didn't give a shit about what sony was doing with PS5, they did their 180 because of consumer backlash

Ms didn't give a crap about Sony but also didn't give a crap about there own consumers which led to there downfall in the beginning of the gen
They did what they felt right and it didn't went well
 

SerTapTap

Member
I agree this is largely the case for Valve, but Valve isn't really in the position to be giving business advice to others here IMO. They're in an extremely unique position where they're easily the default platform and thus can pretty easily ignore competition at this point. Doesn't mean if Steam were launched today to compete with Origin and GOG's currency services they could just do whatever the fuck they want. They've had 12 years to cement their position (and people hated it at the start, don't forget.)

Ms didn't give a crap about Sony but also didn't give a crap about there own consumers which led to there downfall in the beginning of the gen
They did what they felt right and it didn't went well

They literally have a clause trying to keep people from releasing on PS4 before Xbox One. Microsoft obviously cares about PS4. They probably care less than they did last gen, and they've probably realized focusing on PS4 is a losing battle at this point, but they obviously have cared in the past and haven't stopped caring enough to remove that clause.
 

Nzyme32

Member
I was talking about Microsoft and how their arrogance worked out for them..

I don't see the statement as arrogant considering it does seem like a lot of the decisions they have made as a company have not conformed to what others had been doing. In response to the question "Higher or lower than Oculus?" it seems perfectly valid, as to suggest those prices will not be similar.
 
Ms didn't give a crap about Sony but also didn't give a crap about there own consumers which led to there downfall in the beginning of the gen
They did what they felt right and it didn't went well
Yeah it sucks that always on and kinect being mandatory is still a thing huh
 

Durante

Member
I agree this is largely the case for Valve, but Valve isn't really in the position to be giving business advice to others here IMO. They're in an extremely unique position where they're easily the default platform and thus can pretty easily ignore competition at this point.
However, they only got into the position of being the default platform by taking a step which none of their competitors could even conceive of at the time. It's not like Steam popped into existence spontaneously.

That more than anything justifies their perspective for me.
 

Ludens

Banned
What is getting worse about Steam?

Region locking games, awful supports, trade restricted for some days if you don't use an authenticator, the platform is opened to all sort ot games, this could be good but it's also abused by a lot of scummy devs who release unfinished, buggy mess again and again (like Infestation or whatever is called now, or Vendetta, now not available anymore).

Yeah, Steam now looks like a harbour in which all ships can dock, but now always this is good. And I don't forget the stuff they did under christmas with the caching problem honestly.

Also paid mods (backpedal), and the CS:GO stuff last week (backpedal too).
 

GlamFM

Banned
If they didn't give a crap about their consumers they wouldn't have done the 180 and the one would have sold even less

They care about money. As long as outraged consumers do not translate into lost money they don´t give a fuck.

It took actual solid sales data for MS to react. The consumer outrage was month old by then.
 

Pranay

Member
If they didn't give a crap about their consumers they wouldn't have done the 180 and the one would have sold even less


They didn't give a crap about what consumers wanted when making Xbox one and releasing info about the product.
They later on started listening
What point glam is trying to make is before launching a product it is essential to know what your consumers want since the post he quoted was telling business should do what they feel like and what they internally discuss

Edit - but imo it should be both
 

pizzasqueeze

Neo Member
No idea how people can bash steam. I had to recover an account a year or two ago with an old college e-mail address I couldn't access anymore. Got resolved in a day or two.

Sure, competition is good, but steam is pretty good in my book

-crap is always on sale (console digital sales are a joke)
-compared to other services (e.g. PSN), almost never down
-Greenlight problems: it's not up to steam to police every game. It is your job as a consumer to do the research. I think we all learned early on to be pretty careful with early access, I know I did.
-REFUNDS
-Trying to push the envelope with new hardware like the steam controller
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Region locking games,
blame the game publishers for that, not steam

it's the same reason you shouldn't get mad at Netflix for having different shows available in different regions. The content creators want control of that stuff.

awful supports,
yes, but it's not getting worse, and the refund stuff has made getting rid of a bad or broken game way easier

trade restricted for some days if you don't use an authenticator
this is good for security. also, just use an authenticator, it's not hard.

the platform is opened to all sort ot games, this could be good but it's also abused by a lot of scummy devs who release unfinished, buggy mess again and again (like Infestation or whatever is called now, or Vendetta, now not available anymore).
Valve has decided they'd rather let all of the good games in, even if that means letting the bad ones in too. I'm not sure I agree, but I also remember the tone of the conversation several years ago. Valve were idiots for not letting <insert game here> on Steam, because they were too strict. Then when they started greenlight, having a game developer go through greenlight was seen as an insult they shouldn't have to stoop to, in order to get the game on Steam. If you don't remember, before Steam was opened up you had things like prominent indie developers publicly writing open letters to Valve about how closed-off their storefront was.

The platform is open because people wanted it open.
 
The beast is starting to weaken, I see.

All Valve has to do is look at their hardware initiatives a little more closely to see why this is the most awful statement ever.
 

LordRaptor

Member
However, they only got into the position of being the default platform by taking a step which none of their competitors could even conceive of at the time. It's not like Steam popped into existence spontaneously.

That more than anything justifies their perspective for me.

Its also not like other companies at the time didn't have the userbase, infrastructures and opportunities to promote their own storefronts.
They just did such shitty jobs that Valve not doing what they were doing was a huge consumer win.
 

Lunar15

Member
Valve is such a weird company. They definitely operate in that weird technolibertarian space where they view everything as an economics experiment including their own employees and customers, but they're also a private company so they're free of doting shareholders.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Region locking games, awful supports, trade restricted for some days if you don't use an authenticator, the platform is opened to all sort ot games, this could be good but it's also abused by a lot of scummy devs who release unfinished, buggy mess again and again (like Infestation or whatever is called now, or Vendetta, now not available anymore).

Yeah, Steam now looks like a harbour in which all ships can dock, but now always this is good. And I don't forget the stuff they did under christmas with the caching problem honestly.

Also paid mods (backpedal), and the CS:GO stuff last week (backpedal too).

Did you read about why they have the trade restrictions. It is pretty reasonable when considering what they detailed.

Region locking is not the fault of Valve / Steam when the devs / pubs drive that decision based on the consumers. Localised pricing is heavily exploited by many in higher priced territories seeking the cheapest deal, which devs / pubs don't like for obvious reasons. The pricing in regions like Russia / India is due to necciessity and based on the value of their currency and other commodities value for them vs western countries. It isn't viable for them to sell at such low prices everywhere, at which point when it gets exploited, they either opt for region locking or blocking the game in "low tier" countries or excessively pricing in those regions (which is ridiculous). There are terrible tactics in Europe and Australia that persist though for everything with poor currency, but that certainly isn't steam specifc

Scummy games / crap in early access / greenlight is exactly what you get with an open store front. The advantage is no bar to content, and the issues become preventing malware, scams and alike. That certainly is something Steam need to improve, but that is not something that will ever be fully fixable the way Steam is. Considering the pros and cons of the system, I'd still say I prefer Steam so long as they can filter the shit away from recommendations. Doing a tiny bit of research and no blindly pre-ordering is all one can do. Early access by its nature is a dubious concept. People that jump onto it should know the risks and have themselves to blame if they don't - the store pages are pretty clear on that.

I see no problem with back pedalling. I rather see a company admit to mistakes and reverse them than keep rolling. Part of what has made Steam great was that experimentation and willingness to try different things. However I definitely share the sentiment in the sense that much of what Valve do now is unfinished stuff that they take time to iterate on, often with a shit experience in the interim. They know it works, but they also know the customer experience is crap in that period, which is not something I like with the exception of when these are in beta and not pushed.
 

papo

Member
I've always seen it in a follower/leader kind of way.

Valve has clearly been a leader in the market at what they do. They do not need to focus on competitors to succeed where they stand.

Nintendo, when making the Wii, choose to take a new route and not focus or maybe not compete directly with their rivals and it was good for them.

In Sony and MS case they I feel they both need to and need to often ignore doing just that, but it happens more since the competition is more relevant, but even then the better decisions they have both made have come from a place of not reacting to it's competitors. Still they can't afford not to pay attention, in recent years MS more than Sony.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
While there's no denying that region-locking on Steam has strongly tightened over the past couple of years, it's worth keeping in mind that, including removed games, there are somewhere around 8,000 titles on Steam and less than 0.5% of them are Valve's own. That ratio is only going to skew further as time goes on, and the cruel reality is that a universal marketplace free of restrictions is unrealistic as publishers don't want most of their sales coming from regions where their products are up to ~90% cheaper. This sucks for consumers, sure, but the notion that the noose has tightened out of greed on Valve's part is really quite spurious.
 

Window

Member
Different market conditions necessitate different strategies but I'm sure they know this. When launching a product in a market which does not yet exist, I can see some sense in this approach.
 

DorkyMohr

Banned
I mean it surely helps that they had such a head-start on PC and console manufacturers seem to also ignore them as well. Competitors are irrelevant when you have none.
 

Nzyme32

Member
I've always seen it in a follower/leader kind of way.

Valve has clearly been a leader in the market at what they do. They do not need to focus on competitors to succeed where they stand.

True, though I'm pretty sure the statement Chet made can't apply to everything. For example, them working with HTC to bring their VR research into a consumer product is almost certainly based on chum-now-competitor Oculus being bought by Facebook and apparently poaching some staff along the way. Oculus also a company with the potential to swing dominance away from Steam for future PC gaming, something I'm sure Valve would not want. Also I'm sure Dota2 was a reaction to the growth and success they saw coming to League.
 

GamerJM

Banned
Well, better support would be appreciated.

But I just can't see any factual basis for anything getting "worse".

Why are you making things up out of thin air? Is your argument not conclusive enough otherwise?

What about their sales not being as good as of late?
 

Crayon

Member
I'm detecting a distinct difference in tone and content between the pro-valve posts and the anti-valve posts.
 

Trojan

Member
Chet disagrees with the notion that the Vive needs a AAA killer app and calls the app store the killer app of the iPhone.

Cue great sadness. I feel like if Valve had any 1st party games in the pipeline for the Vive they would at least hint at it here.
 

Spirited

Mine is pretty and pink
I don't mean results, I mean prices. They don't have flash or daily sales anymore.
Which is because of their introduction of the most pro-consumer thing they've ever done, refunds.
I wouldn't say I like the removal of daily and flash sales but it's pretty much a necessity for having a viable refund policy.
 

GamerJM

Banned
Which is because of their introduction of the most pro-consumer thing they've ever done, refunds.

Eh, whether or not that's really an even or positive tradeoff is debatable. I don't know if I'd say it is or isn't, but I'd say I can definitely see someone liking Steam less because of it.
 

VillageBC

Member
And? Amazon is filled with garbage, your local supermarket is filled with garbage.
Yes, they are bad but how is that relevant? We are talking about Steam. I agree it seems like the level of garbage I have to sort through has skyrocketed since greenlight. Enough so I'm starting to look to GOG first.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Cue great sadness. I feel like if Valve had any 1st party games in the pipeline for the Vive they would at least hint at it here.

Every time Valve hints at something, many fans go nuts and instantly assume there's some sort of ARG going on, so I wouldn't read too much into the absence of suggestion.
 

Spirited

Mine is pretty and pink
Eh, whether or not that's really an even or positive tradeoff is debatable. I don't know if I'd say it is or isn't, but I'd say I can definitely see someone liking Steam less because of it.
Happily there's still other authorized resellers out there with often better discounts on games that activate on steam.
You won't get the chance for a refund but if you don't care about that then it's a viable option.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Isn't this basically what Sony did? They repeatedly stated Microsoft didn't play a part in their decisions regarding the PS4, but rather it was a result of their interviews with developers. And a bit of luck with Hynix.
 
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