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[Arcoril]

So unless you upgrade your console every year and fork out $500 you're going to be at a disadvantage in games because those with upgraded boxes will be running them at a higher FPS?

Yeah fuck that.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you made an assumption, got angry with your assumption, and checked out.

This problem isn't new and is solvable. FPS can be locked to the lowest common denominator when there's a competitive advantage to be gained. On the other hand, better textures, shadows, and post-processing effects rarely result in any competitive advantage. These things can be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

 

[onQ123]

Here is a question: Why would a dev make a Xbox One game when they can just make a Universal Windows Game & have it play on more platforms?


It might not play as good on the Xbox One but I think they can use the Xbox One specs as the base but have the game run on all Windows 10 devices above the Xbox One specs.

 

[twobear]

True.
I guess in that sense only the newest Xbox or whatever would have said hardware advantages for a short period of time.

Kind of similar but different to regular console hw advantages as devs always need time with a game consoles to maximise them, which might be harder down the road with three iterations of an Xbox on the shelf maybe.

i mean realistically you'd optimise for the oldest and then just crank up the settings for the newest. anybody expecting anything more than just higher resolution, framerates and iq on the updated models is expecting too much.

 

[Maintenance]

Except, this is nothing like that.

This is the iOS business model and it works.

Except Microsoft isn't Apple, by a long mile.

Oh, and for people comparing this to the mobile market, what happened when Microsoft went from the W7 to the W8 version of the phones? Yeah.

 

[Purkake4]

Can't say I'm a fan, but it was only a matter of time.

 

[Mihos]

Except, this is nothing like that.

This is the iOS business model and it works.

Except the iOS device adoption is slowing because need to upgrade is going away.

Also, iOS devices 'also' play games. It is not their primary purpose in life.

I am sure MS wants XBOX to be a convergence device, and was even pitched that way also, so they can add more and more for pay service and rout more traffic into their search and cloud offerings.

This is all around creating sustained revenue streams and very little to do with things that get gamers all gooey inside.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

So, it's a PC with Xbox brand on it. I wonder if Microsoft will also start to price their product like Apple. Take old hardware, put a 3x price tag on it and sell it for huge profit. Sounds plaucible.

 

[The Baron Count]

The console you buy in 2015 doesn't start performing worse because someone else buys a more powerful one in 2017.

If we are going by the phone comparison then at some point there are going to need to be games released that exclude the inferior platforms. Otherwise you are going to hit a point with these hardware upgrades that makes them pointless.

The single biggest role that consoles play in the progress of technology in games is determining the floor of what you can accomplish. This is why PC gaming has always been affected by console generations as well.

The question here is how they or any other company would tackle that decision. And judging by most posts in here, I think it's safe to say that most people have no idea how complicated this could get. Offering too many SKUs alone has cause option paralysis in the past, even without the considerations to how developers will deal with SKUs that offer more power.

The only way I could see this working is by effectively making these PCs. Meaning they play the PC versions and the "Xbox" version as we know it ceases to exist. IE Steambox.

 

[Obliterator]

I wonder what the reactions will be when / if Nintendo unveil the same strategy type for the NX. I mean it may very well be this split I'm just curious what people's opinions will be

 

[ViciousDS]

i mean realistically you'd optimise for the oldest and then just crank up the settings for the newest. anybody expecting anything more than just higher resolution, framerates and iq on the updated models is expecting too much.

but optimizing on the oldest would mean that the new systems would have the same exact APU. Otherwise they would be hoping Raw power would provide enough to bump that FPS and resolution. They still would have to optimize on all sku's to get the most out of them.


Uncharted 4 wouldn't run magically a million times better on minor hardware upgrade/revision. They still would have to optimize the game to use everything correctly. Otherwise the hardware would have to be that much better/powerful in order to pull off the same feats or look/run better. Raw power can only do so much in these consoles.

 

[gofreak]

Here is a question: Why would a dev make a Xbox One game when they can just make a Universal Windows Game & have it play on more platforms?


It might not play as good on the Xbox One but I think they can use the Xbox One specs as the base but have the game run on all Windows 10 devices above the Xbox One specs.

The only reason, eventually, will be the better performance if the dev cares. I think they'll move to a single submission process through the Windows store with the option to submit a 'native' Xbox build that will be pushed to players on Xbox instead of the universal app. Later I could see them getting rid of the option.

 

[Papacheeks]

The problem with people claiming that it will be just as simple as it is now, and you can just upgrade as often as you feel like, and only upgrade every 5-6 years if you want to, and you don't have to mess with settings if you don't want to, is that no, of course it fucking won't be as simple as it is now. Microsoft might make an effort to make it simple, and they will sure as hell try to convince you it's simple, but it won't be anywhere near as simple. Sure, theoretically your box will be forwards-compatible for five years and will just work for you. But in practice, it's gonna look a hell of a lot more like this:


Hey, you want that game in that series you love, but guess what? The developer decided to make it only two generations backwards-compatible instead of three, because they didn't want to put in the effort to optimize it for your model. So you're shit out of luck. How about that other game? Oh, damn, its performance is good on other models, but shitty on your model. Shoot. At least you always remember to obsessively check Digital Foundry before every purchase, a thing you need to do now that performance and developer effort can vary wildly between models!

Well, how about this third game? You'd better look up its performance too. Looks good! No wait, shit. It only gets a stable framerate on the special edition of your model. You know, the one with the overclocked GPU, the one that came out 6 months later with that FIFA game bundled in. Yeah, that one.

Maybe you should look into upgrading your machine's hardware? Some of these machines can be upgraded; you know that. But you're just an average-Joe consumer, and you don't even really know what phrases like "CPU" and "RAM" mean. But you do the annoying research to figure it all out. But alas, the specific hardware upgrade you wanted isn't available for your model. No, wait; they used to have it, but it was discontinued last month. Now it's really expensive on eBay. Shit!

Perhaps you could tweak the settings. But you hate messing with settings. You don't want to game on a PC. That's why you bought a console. Microsoft promised it would just work. You sigh.

You're feeling a little frustrated when your programmer friend happens to call you up. He's been making an indie game and it's been going well. But shit, he's getting really nervous about optimizing and testing his game on a half a dozen different Xbox models. He's really thinking of just releasing the game on Playstation. Shoot, you were really looking forward to trying his game.

Maybe you should consider just buying a newer model? But they're so expensive now that Microsoft releases so many of them, each needing its own round of R&D and stress testing and everything else that goes into designing and manufacturing hardware. You miss the days where developers could afford to take a loss on hardware, since they only had to sink those hardware design costs every 6 years or so.

You think about it. And then it hits you. Just buy a fucking Playstation. Because there's only one of those on the market, and it actually does just work™.

Nailed my sentiment to a T. ANd they wouldn't be making these harsh decisions for xbox if they had started the whole generation really strong. This IMHO is the wrong path and ultimately may kill the xbox console.

 

[gamz]

So, it's a PC with Xbox brand on it. I wonder if Microsoft will also start to price their product like Apple. Take old hardware, put a 3x price tag on it and sell it for huge profit. Sounds plaucible.

Xbox One and PS4 are already PC's.

 

[Graphics Horse]

True.
I guess in that sense only the newest Xbox or whatever would have said hardware advantages for a short period of time.

Kind of similar but different to regular console hw advantages as devs always need time with a game consoles to maximise them, which might be harder down the road with three iterations of an Xbox on the shelf maybe.

Yeah designing a new platform from scratch would be better but that comes with the old problem of gambling away your existing userbase.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Fuck that shit.

If I wanted to upgrade my hardware every year I would get a PC, leave console gaming alone.

they dont upgrade. YOUR GAMES WOULD STILL WORK.

You don't think that this will limit development as they will want to hit the mass base? They already restrict development for parity on different consoles. You think it will be different on in house stuff?

Why? Do you look at software development in other areas? There is trade offs in every industry, but it's hard to imagine that a scaleable mobile solution will be worse than the current pathetic console landscape.

If 1080p and framerateGate media is any indication, this is going to be a lot better for a whole lot of people who are tired of this stupid crap with ps4 and xbox one.

New middle ware tools are being made all the time to take advantage of different platforms, offering scaleable and effective solutions that take advantage of individually specced proprietary technology. You see a lot of ignorance in this thread from people who don't understand that.

 

[Maintenance]

I wonder what the reactions will be when / if Nintendo unveil the same strategy type for the NX. I mean it may very well be this split I'm just curious what people's opinions will be

I'm trying to find the N3DS reveal thread.

 

[MogCakes]

Except, this is nothing like that.

This is the iOS business model and it works.

I would imagine (being an android user) that many apps released on older versions of iOS are not compatible with newer versions of iOS. I'd also imagine there are many apps created for the newest iphone hardware that wouldn't work or run very well on older hardware.

 

[Markoman]

The problem with people claiming that it will be just as simple as it is now, and you can just upgrade as often as you feel like, and only upgrade every 5-6 years if you want to, and you don't have to mess with settings if you don't want to, is that no, of course it fucking won't be as simple as it is now. Microsoft might make an effort to make it simple, and they will sure as hell try to convince you it's simple, but it won't be anywhere near as simple. Sure, theoretically your box will be forwards-compatible for five years and will just work for you. But in practice, it's gonna look a hell of a lot more like this:
.

That would be normal console cycle though ;P but seriously, do people really believe that you buy one model that you will be able to upgrade in ten years from now? Ever tried to upgrade a 5 year old PC? Good luck. What kind of technical leaps are people expecting within let's say 6 years with 3 upgrades? Hell, will PS5 even be able to run games @4K, 60fps with off shelf parts for 400$. I don't think so.

 

[twobear]

but optimizing on the oldest would mean that the new systems would have the same exact APU. They would be hoping Raw power would provide enough to bump that FPS and resolution. They still would have to optimize on all sku's to get the most out of them.


Uncharted 4 wouldn't run magically a million times better on minor hardware upgrade/revision. They still would have to optimize the game to use everything correctly. Otherwise the hardware would have to be that much better in order to pull off the same feats or look/run better. Raw power can only do so much in these consoles.

they're all using off the shelf parts now anyway (essentially), it's not like there's funky custom hardware inside them, and they'd all share the same API. they'd only need to be using more powerful versions of what's essentially the same hardware.

it would be basically exactly like the iphone or a pc.

 

[BlindJesus]

It's funny, over a decade ago when the X360 was preparing to be announced, the 'modular xbox' rumor was huge. I wonder how long MS has been marinating the idea of offering tiers of xbox's for different demographics.

 

[harSon]

i'd be very surprised if there were ever more than two or three xbox models supported at any given time.

Yup, there obviously has to be a cut off point. I think there will still be generations of consoles under this model, but it'll just be upgradable during the course of those 8-10 years - as opposed to static.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I'm trying to find the N3DS reveal thread.

It will be full of whining, been like that since the GBA SP.

 

[Maintenance]

It will be full of whining, been like that since the GBA SP.

I know, but I want to compare reactions.

Found it, reading right now.

 

[MaulerX]

This is awesome. I've always dreamed of something like this happening. The older console can still play the games (at whatever settings is can muster) and the upgraded one at obviously higher settings. The model is already immensely popular on PC and Mobile. Time for consoles to make the jump.

 

[GodofWine]

This would make me either continually hold off on buying a console out of gear of the next one being "the good one ", or it would just make me spend two times the consoles price to build one PC that will run all the xb models games on high for a decade.

I like consoles for their simplicity and that they offer a standard experience gor all users, leave it be

 

[Mrbob]

I expect some restrictions on supporting previous xboxen. Like support will only go a box or two back.

For example, a new Xbox releases every three years and only the previous xbox released is supported with new games. Basically puts a buyer at worst on a 6 year cycle.

Here is a question: Why would a dev make a Xbox One game when they can just make a Universal Windows Game & have it play on more platforms?


It might not play as good on the Xbox One but I think they can use the Xbox One specs as the base but have the game run on all Windows 10 devices above the Xbox One specs.

Who is buying that universal Windows game? Certainly not PC gamers with all the issues uwa is having.

MS on the verge of blowing it a third time with PC gamers.

 

[Rains]

Hmmmm so am guessing CPU/GPU/ram will all be upgrade able what benifit will this have over a standard pc

 

[Uno Venova]

I think the key point that a lot of people are missing here is the addition of backward and forward compatibility. This makes this idea much more sound than examples like peripherals (32X, Kinect, etc.) or releasing totally separate consoles at a faster cycle. This is much more akin to iOS or PC gaming in which your device will continue to be "good enough" to play new games for years after release.
You don't see anybody calling iOS users "fragmented", do you?

But older IOS devices play games much worse than the current ones.

 

[Faenix1]

Interest in an X1 has died significantly.

I'll wait and see what happens though.

 

[jelly]

I wonder what the reactions will be when / if Nintendo unveil the same strategy type for the NX. I mean it may very well be this split I'm just curious what people's opinions will be

Sony could as well. If they stick to the PC architecture, it's just too tempting not to improve the hardware if the price/profit remains stable and keep the pace with technology innovations and remain competitive among entertainment platforms.

Does anyone really think Sony is going to stick with PS4 to run VR for a console generation when it apparently takes beast PCs to run Oculus and HTC Vive?

 

[NullPointer]

But older IOS devices play games much worse than the current ones.

And in many cases play worse than when they released, because those apps have patched to take advantage of later hardware releases.

 

[gofreak]

Xbox One and PS4 are already PC's.

Not in a sense that's meaningful here. The distinction is made by the nature of the software and business platform. Microsoft currently maintains a games platform separate from their PC platform - here it sounds they will migrate to the latter. That's what would actually make xboxs 'PCs'.

 

[Netherscourge]

So, they're going to make Xbox Games with graphic scalability now for older systems?

No more "standardized, 1-console, 1-hardware configuration" philosophy?

It'll be fun to see how developers deal with that. Suddenly they need to do extra work to get their games running on as many Xboxs as possible...

Better keep your drivers updated...

 

[gamz]

This would make me either continually hold off on buying a console out of gear of the next one being "the good one ", or it would just make me spend two times the consoles price to build one PC that will run all the xb models games on high for a decade.

I like consoles for their simplicity and that they offer a standard experience gor all users, leave it be

Then you'll never buy anything. Any device is like that.

 

[The Baron Count]

This is awesome. I've always dreamed of something like this happening. The older console can still play the games (at whatever settings is can muster) and the upgraded one at obviously higher settings. The model is already immensely popular on PC and Mobile. Time for consoles to make the jump.

The model you yourself just described is at the very lest NOT the model mobile uses.

The model mobile uses is to drop support for things altogether at a point, usually within a few years. Specifically due to the complications of having that many platforms to worry about.

PCs have done this to a certain extent as well. With games coming out at some point that drop support for the old version of DirectX. Though obviously we are talking a long term thing there.

So many people here just have no idea how messy the prospect of this is. If MS do decide to do something like this, it will not be in any way that I am seeing anyone here describing because every single scenario I am seeing people describing will do nothing but kill the brand. In order for it to work they have to make it simple for the average user that knows fuck all about hardware specs. Multiple SKUs that have very minor differences already confuse that user so good friggin luck.

 

[Raziel]

they dont upgrade. YOUR GAMES WOULD STILL WORK.
.

Yeah, the barely functioning 20fps versions will still work.

 

[Interfectum]

Yeah, the barely functioning 20fps versions will still work.

So basically console gaming as it is today?

 

[Graphics Horse]

I know, but I want to compare reactions.

Found it, reading right now.

Tbh I don't remember Nintendo trumpeting the internal improvements much, but they must have said something about Xenoblade.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

Xbox One and PS4 are already PC's.

Can you upgrade your PS4 or Xbox One? Nope, that's not a PC. You can upgrade the new Xbox if I read it right, that's a PC.

Mac is not a PC even if it has PC hardware in it.

 

[Dahaka]

So basically console gaming as it is today?

cheap hyperbole

 

[jelly]

AMD must be pleased, probably helps them a little more to survive.

 

[Interfectum]

cheap hyperbole

Responded to hyperbole with hyperbole.

 

[MaulerX]

Here is a question: Why would a dev make a Xbox One game when they can just make a Universal Windows Game & have it play on more platforms?


It might not play as good on the Xbox One but I think they can use the Xbox One specs as the base but have the game run on all Windows 10 devices above the Xbox One specs.

You mean more W10 devices? That also include the XB1?

 

[Lord Error]

I like the idea, I hope they do it. For as long as the consoles still have the easy plug and play nature and "it just works" environment, I don't mind more frequent hardware upgrades, especially when they promise continuous backwards compatibility.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Since the surface engineers are most likely involved in the next xbox design, may be they follow a surface book approach?

two or three xbox's. Same SoC across the board.

The higher tiers have a discreet gpu and more ram?

 

[Graphics Horse]

AMD must be pleased, probably helps them a little more to survive.

I am curious if they've hinted at it in their briefings or not. Won't have unless it comes out this year but I think it's a possibility.

 

[Complicated]

It's also worth pointing out that pushing graphics in games gives consumers a much much better reason to upgrade than the mostly gimmicky additions coming to phones in the past few years. It's built in to the core of what games are and how they play.

 

[Darkstorne]

Good in theory. Problem is there is more that goes into resolution and fps than just the GPU. What about upgrading the CPU? The higher the GPU the more power supply you need. What about the RAM speed? Can it sustain what the GPU and CPU is asking it to do or do you need to upgrade that as well?

Actually for the most part resolution is only tied to GPU. As are the vast majority of visual effects since they tend to be post-processing (anti aliasing, ambient occlusion, sub surface scattering, depth of field, etc). Framerate will be bottle-necked by whatever the weakest component is, but given that CPUs are stuck in an odd spot where even 5 year old PC CPUs are still rocking 60fps easily on the latest games maxed out, and Intel has gone on record to say they'll be focusing on improved power consumption rather than performance for the forseeable future... CPUs really aren't going to be an issue, and will easily maintain 60fps without an upgrade.

As for more powerful GPUs needing bigger power supplies... nope. My GTX 970 uses almost HALF the power my old GTX 580 used, despite being over twice as powerful. A GTX 980 would use more power than a 970, but that's because it released in the same year, based on the same tech. You can easily release a new GPU every two years that surpasses the previous one for performance without increasing power draw even remotely.

There is literally NOTHING to worry about here. All Microsoft would be offering is the OPTION to upgrade and make your 1080p 30fps games run at higher resolutions and/or at higher framerates and/or with better visuals effects. They'd be aiming to make it more like a PC in terms of customization, with none of the confusion, and with absolutely no impact on the gamers who want to buy a console at launch and have it last them for 5+ years.

But they wouldn't have to go that route if they weren't getting their asses handed to them. ANd developers wouldn't put up a stink about it being underpowered if they had developed the hardware properly the first time.

Having more variables for developers to worry about is not a sound idea. It did not work out for sega.

I think it's got very little to do with complaints about Xbox One hardware, and a lot to do with getting competitive with Sony by providing a great incentive to own future Microsoft hardware over the competition's. They've recognized a lot more people care about framerate and resolution than before, so they're considering providing those people with the OPTION of improving their hardware without affecting the standard 1080p 30fps gameplay most people are used to.

As for variables for devs to worry about, they don't have to worry. Consoles work like PCs now, where scalability is relatively easy to implement. Most modern engines make a huge point of being easily scalable, to the effect that many new games were able to launch both on current and last gen hardware (Battlefield 4, Dragon Age Inquisition, Destiny, etc). Extra "variables" aren't an issue. Just like they aren't on PC.

Yes, but to play Halo 21, you need to upgrade, to play Halo 23, you need to upgrade, to play Halo 24... Halo 23 machine can handle Halo24 at reduced settings, but not Halo 21 machine.

This is a silly assumption, and fear-mongering. Why would they deliberately choose to lock a large portion of their install base out of new software? They don't make money on hardware sales, they make money on software. They want the hardware upgrades to be appealing to enough people to get them to invest in the Xbox brand over the competition, without shutting the door on their existing userbase that loves the idea of buying a console and sticking with it for 5+ years.

Halo 24, in your example, might only run at 1080p 30fps for the base console. OPTIONAL upgrades might push that to 1440p 60fps, or 4k 30fps.

 

[maniac-kun]

This marks the beginning of the one platform future.

 

[SneakersSO]

1. Yes I do think that consumers will continue to buy the older cheaper product.

2. I expect each revision would support software for at least 5 years aka a standard console generation

3. Devs will support it just like they support a huge range of PC hardware right now. I mean devs are literally already doing this at scale.

1. Consumers, in the space of videogames, have NEVER continued to purchase an older, cheaper product once the new standard was introduced into the marketplace. Its never occurred. This only occurs when a product has a way more versatile amount of functionality than just videogames, which is the case of smartphones & tablets, and even then, newer product still lead the pack in sales.

2. If we're talking about a 5 year iterative cycle, then its just a console generation, like you said, and this iterative approach is wholly unnecessary. If you're saying a new hardware ceiling is being introduced every 2 or 3 years, then we have a huge problem.

3. As a dev, this is NOT what is currently going on in the current PC space. When we make a PC game, we have a GIANT marketplace & install base that we can sell to. We aren't assessing Steam's potential install base when making a game because we already know the potential install base is over 100+ million (obviously we don't budget according to that figure).

Before we even break this down even further, lets just start off by pointing out the obvious - PC support, EVEN when its a game focused exclusively for PC, such as X-Com 2, still yields wild & unpredictable proper functionality for the wide range of PC specs that currently exist in that ecosystem. When we consider games that have focused primarily on the console version, and then had a PC version also done, we've had significant bad examples this year alone. The fact is, attempting to support the wide variety of setups the PC platform has offered has caused huge, noticeable issues that have become increasingly prevalent. Consoles have offered some more security in this regard, but its not like console development has escaped these issues either. However, console releases tend to become way more 'guaranteed' stable upon release the longer a generation goes on, as long as the developer is leading console development first, and not on PC.

I've shipped several PC games already, and I can tell you just getting the support for various individual components is a development pipeline nightmare when it comes to optimization. Thats why so many individual PC setups slip through the cracks, and we get 'hilarious' youtube videos of issues come launch day calling the developers lazy as a result. Few QA teams can even handle doing all the proper technical testing for these setups. It isn't impossible - in fact, leading on console has helped PC releases, since it gives us a sort of old & weathered benchmark that we can work off of, while throwing in our higher-end render bells & whistles for PC users who can afford to run them.

So now, MS goes "we want to introduce a new closed box platform into the market that is a smaller increment stronger than a full-on console generational step". So, with just that alone, if the APU for the system is not the same as the prior console, we are looking at adding in a new coding development pipeline for that build of the game if its to run natively on the new machine. On top of that, that entire build will need its own branch of QA support. All while we're still building the last Xbox's version.

Not only would we have to hire more people across the board to support it, there is zero guarantee we are primed to make any more money; remember, if the early market is going to be all enthusiasts on these new machines, and there is zero indication in market history that says a casual market will catch on to this, my team is now basically dividing the potential sales we'd have on one ecosystem between two platforms. Except, the act of dividing it actually costs us more money & development time. And there is zero guarantee the new machine will ever have an install base large enough to give us a positive ROI.