Still waiting on any sort of facts on literally anything you're saying. You say some really shitty things and use "Well this race of people are a bunch of jerks who don't want to talk nice!" as your leverage for doing so. Really nice self-fulfilling prophecy, there. I forget that a GAF thread is clearly the representative of white people. Even in that case, what sort of white people are you talking about? American white people? Canadian white people? European white people? South African white people? Because they're all pretty fucking different.
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Stardew Valley: Token minority character
- Thread starter Bboy AJ
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Still waiting on any sort of facts on literally anything you're saying. You say some really shitty things and use "Well this race of people are a bunch of jerks who don't want to talk nice!" as your leverage for doing so. Really nice self-fulfilling prophecy, there. I forget that a GAF thread is clearly the representative of white people. Even in that case, what sort of white people are you talking about? American white people? Canadian white people? European white people? South African white people? Because they're all pretty fucking different.
CenturionKei
Banned
Your grouping up a massive group (which includes multiple races. Hate to break it to you white people arent a single race) and judging them on a few people.
Thats racist. Your being racist.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Life experience.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
lol
Always fun these threads.
Melkezadek
Member
Eh, I don't think it's a good idea to collectively dismiss white people in the discussion, though. I do understand the frustrations as I deal with similar situations in my day to day. However, I do hate it when people dismiss me when I speak about race, accusing me of pulling the "race card" simply because I'm black.
Reciprocating that behavior doesn't help anything and undermines whatever real point you might have to make.
CenturionKei
Banned
Oh? So your saying its okay to declare billions of people that make up the "white" race, on the rambling words of a few racist people on the internet? How is that fair to white people?
Messofanego
Banned
You seem aware of the problem but yet are also dismissing the problem with that whataboutism, weird. If it's "not important", then why the resistance to diversity if this hobby or representation doesn't matter in the long run? Just because you don't care, doesn't mean everyone else should not care.
Not quite crazy lengths. Might want to re-check your stats on believing close to 50% women is only related to mobile games. 40% of active gamers on consoles are women and spend about the same time and investment.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-30-platform-not-gender-drives-gamer-differences-eedar
BTW do you even play videogames anymore? You seem to have such disdain for them and the people who engage with them
Why are you aiming it specifically at Stardew Valley that has a positive black character. I don't think he's token at all in the sense of just there to be there.
Is this thread about inclusiveness and adding diversity to more games really going to turn into, "Oh, won't somebody think of the white people?!"
If a blanket statement is made, and you feel like you don't fall under that umbrella--it's not talking about you. Would Cindi's post be more palatable if it simply said, "Most white people"? Because that's how it is. People who receive privilege often don't like being told that they're receiving it as a factor of what they are, and not who they are. It's not a nice thing to confront, but it's true. Most people don't like being told they didn't do something right. Most people don't like being told that they have it better than someone else by virtue of being born a certain way. It doesn't make it any less true.
The point is, Stardew Valley did something good, but it can always do better. There's absolutely nothing wrong with discussing how it could have done better.
If a blanket statement is made, and you feel like you don't fall under that umbrella--it's not talking about you. Would Cindi's post be more palatable if it simply said, "Most white people"? Because that's how it is. People who receive privilege often don't like being told that they're receiving it as a factor of what they are, and not who they are. It's not a nice thing to confront, but it's true. Most people don't like being told they didn't do something right. Most people don't like being told that they have it better than someone else by virtue of being born a certain way. It doesn't make it any less true.
The point is, Stardew Valley did something good, but it can always do better. There's absolutely nothing wrong with discussing how it could have done better.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Am I crazy or is this comment blatantly racist?
Silphonica
Banned
Yeah sorry, I'll just sit and wait for a white member of wu-tang to happen before I can get serious about the subject.
lifa-cobex
Member
Like I said, I think it's an odd ball factor.
I think it starts breaching into what each person considers to be a casual gamer to a hardcore gamer.
In the area of this thread, the discussion is around representation.
Now this is only something that would be an issue that generally involves characters or a story imo.
Because many of these study's involve these other game types, Should they really count as to finding a demographic in more (what I would call) hard core gamers.
Yes they are games absolutely. But many of these surveys tend to involve these other demographics.
People end up believing that (for arguments sake,) more women play lots of games like Witcher, Uncharted or Final Fantasy. When in fact they just have a quick go on Angry Birds.
I feel the area of research needs to be narrowed down and then slowly opened up, But taking into account of each factor as they go along.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...gth_speed_pain_tolerance_and_the_magical.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...eople_don_t_perceive_pain_in_other_races.html
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brow...ts/2015/08/18-teacher-expectations-gershenson
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-discrimination-in-america-is-basically-over/
http://www.people-press.org/2014/08...ons-in-reactions-to-ferguson-police-shooting/
I've got my facts.
Where's yours?
Where's my 'cism?
PataHikari
Banned
Actually since he's not opressing white people with insitutional pressure and cultural inertia he's not being racist.
Also, speaking as a white person he's totally right about how awful we are tbh
I think we'll be ok and survive somehow lol
Seeing the same response from the same group of people repeatedly on a forum like this isn't surprising, though. It's still the same forum.
It's doubly murky when the message of the OP comes off as oddly antagonistic and accusatory right off the bat, despite claims otherwise. And despite it "being about more than Stardew Valley," that's not what the thread title proclaims.
Then the actual message is kind of muddy and vague, if I'm being honest? Some are claiming they want more representation even if it's just a skin color, others want research and/or life experience to play a role, still others want there to be actually more diverse creators, still others say they just want the issue to be in creators minds in the future. And in almost every single page I see person after person saying they want that, too, but that they think the thread starts with a bad example, or they get distracted by real life rural stats or whatever, which I can see as getting frustrating.
But in the end what is the actual discussion we want to have, here? Just to say "Huh, yeah, that IS a lot of white people." because I feel like that has absolutely happened, here. Also, who is the message for? The developer? Because it feels like a really direct comment for the developer in thread form, which again, really blurs the message.
As someone new around here and who hasn't been in many of these threads, I guess I'm just asking for a foundation of an argument that's a little more solid and a little less nebulous, because I feel like the idea of representation and the "de-white-ification" (so to speak) of games and media in general in a conversation that is constantly happening.
And of course you'll get the usual loonies, and you'll get plenty of dismissive people, but even in this thread it's clear that those dismissing it are doing so because they appear to be incredibly easily distracted.
I feel like I'm going in circles here, so I'll wrap it up. What's the real discussion we're trying to have without being distracted by specifics like Stardew Valley or rural population statistics or any extraneous fluff?
What on earth does this have to do with whether or not Stardew Valley has a positive portrayal of a minority?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
It has a lot to do with this threads reception and people's response to merely wanting to have a modicum of a dialogue about this issue.
It is entirely pertinent if you have bothered to read this thread and the overall retorts by the posters.
John Rabbit
Banned
this is turning into that Xbox nightclub thread all over again.
people just coming in, reading the latest post, and reacting without reading the thread or actually considering what they're saying.
OP isn't even that inflammatory, is everyone on edge today?
people just coming in, reading the latest post, and reacting without reading the thread or actually considering what they're saying.
OP isn't even that inflammatory, is everyone on edge today?
You seem to just be arguing instead of having an open dialogue about a perceived issue though.
Spring-Loaded
Member
"It would be pretty cool to have (more) non-White characters in this game and in video games in general"
How that is in any form offensive or antagonistic or warrant the dismissals in this thread I have no idea
a certain type of fragility, I'd say
lifa-cobex
Member
Yes.
Silphonica
Banned
Nah hes gone passed that, hes saying you are racist for being white. More than likey because of how you think and act, without realising it.
"White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation."
http://libjournal.uncg.edu/index.php/ijcp/article/view/249
Because that's not what the thread is titled, it claims that a great, non-token character from Stardew Valley is in fact a token character that sticks out like a sore thumb.
Whereas the argument you gave is much more succinct and makes a lot more sense and is something that I bet you'll find is generally an agreeable argument around here when stripped of accusing good characters of being there just to fill a quota.
it isn't the catalyst though, this discussion has been had many many times in the past about many many different games and it will happen many many more times
AcademicSaucer
Member
I actually had to attend talks at work and one of the subjects was racism. And Im pretty sure racism is prejudice against someone based of their race .
blankempathy
Member
So do the rare exceptions wait until they've been offended by your statement to have a discussion? I mean what good is it to make a generalization insulting all of a demographic which probably makes them even less willing to have a real discussion now because of your insults? This just seems like a bad stance to have if you're really open to have a discussion in a mature manner.
PataHikari
Banned
Stardew Valley uses the old trope of Token Minority. It's kind of a fact.
This doesn't mean that Stardew Valley is bad. (Something which, of course, people don't get.) It just means it uses one problematic trope and things could be better.
OmegaDL50
Member
I'm White. I have no issue with any individual regardless of their race or religious background.
I still think it's unreasonable to make gross generalized statements such as this.
People should be defined by their actions and the way they interact with other people.
Your ethnicity doesn't dictate your actions either.
You would take issue if others generalized your entire skin tone based on the actions or experiences you had with those few individuals you interacted with. It doesn't make you look noble when you do the same thing.
You are the one that said don't engage white people on race, but with that statement you made an open invitation, but I make this evidently clear race is irrelevant. Your skin tone doesn't justify your stance to make gross generalizations.
I still think it's unreasonable to make gross generalized statements such as this.
People should be defined by their actions and the way they interact with other people.
Your ethnicity doesn't dictate your actions either.
You would take issue if others generalized your entire skin tone based on the actions or experiences you had with those few individuals you interacted with. It doesn't make you look noble when you do the same thing.
You are the one that said don't engage white people on race, but with that statement you made an open invitation, but I make this evidently clear race is irrelevant. Your skin tone doesn't justify your stance to make gross generalizations.
Tigersprite
Member
Yuup.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Just to say, for people saying "it's just an indie game", it's valuable to criticize "just an indie game" because I think most people want indie games to be equal.
John Rabbit
Banned
so are you just purposely ignoring this part of the OP where he summarizes his entire position:
because he makes his opinion--and the topic of this discussion--pretty clear.
sensui-tomo
Member
I wish the ps plus free game threads would see it that way. Indie game = lesser quality apparently for some people.
Am I ignoring it? No. But I'm trying to make it clear that this is a forum, and lots of people will read the title, skim the post, and then reply. When the thread's title is something that immediately rings in your head as bullshit, you're gonna have people typing up replies as soon as they get inside the thread.
AcademicSaucer
Member
What? Maybe its because english is not my first language, but I dont understand what you are trying to say here.Can you elaborate please?
SuperStiltzkin
Member
And you think that the "symptoms" don't feed back into strengthening and reinforcing the "disease?" Sorry, but they're more than just a measuring stick for our current culture. They directly affect it.
That's not the fault of the OP, but people who don't read the argument and instead resort to White Fragility on Full Display.
Yup.
Also "you're the real racist" being trotted out right now
CircleOfFire
Member
Yes, this would be better.
Yes, that is the fault of the people who don't read -- as I said, it's a forum. Everyone is quite easily distracted. But I'd very much argue against the "well people are just being pedantic about the argument being presented correctly" when the title of the thread is completely misleading about the actual subject matter, instantly creating a divide in the argument itself as witnessed here.
Like I said, the vast majority of replies in this thread are about people who are entirely open and for more representation in games and disagreed with the specific example given. But I guess if someone doesn't agree with your entire opinion they're being dismissive, right?
It's well-established that one of the first devices that an empowered group uses to dismiss the protests of an under-privileged group is to downplay their ability to make an argument correctly. Any perceived flaws become amplified, entirely regardless of the legitimacy of the grievance.
Which is bannable. We require members to read the OP. If they can't manage that, there are plenty of other forums where that sort of behavior is acceptable.
Please get back to discussing the topic, rather than having a meta discussion about the topic.
- Make your own game instead of whining
- Mod the game yourself
- Developers are White, therefore they are unable to make non-White characters
- You're the Real Racist
- The game takes place in White People Only World
- The game is made my one person, therefore mostly/only White characters exist
- I'll talk when there's a White member in Wu Tang (???)
For how diplomatic and milquetoast the OP is (it's so incredibly basic), the responses and reactions and counter-replies have been vastly disproportionate to the OP's basic claim of just asking for better representation among indies especially.
There are no excuses. No excuses for not having more non-White characters.
UncleSporky
Member
So not only are the people actively discussing the subject demonstrating white fragility, but lurkers merely reading along, as well as those who glance at the thread and close it are also exemplifying white fragility?
It would seem that the only way for a white person to avoid being fragile would be to have not seen the thread title through some stroke of luck.
Hip Hop
Member
It's crazy how you can spew shit like this, but it's cool. You can't be racist against white people.
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