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Stardew Valley: Token minority character

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I think it's clear that diversity in games is severely lacking and there's a lot of work to do in that regard.

However, I think that if including diverse characters isn't something that comes naturally to you, then the way that you do that seems kind of fraught and difficult to do well. You can run into tokenism, you can run into being stereotypical, you can into the problem of making someone simply a white person with a black face.

And even if you manage to make authentic experiences from diverse people, how much of those different experiences do you add and what kinds do you add? Do you add more black characters while neglecting East Asian, South Asian, Native American, Latino, etc. characters? Do you have people who aren't gender normative or people in poly relationships?
 
What is the point of acting all sactimonious like this? Jesus Christ. No wonder nobody wants to engage with you when you act like a prick.

-Video Games are an outgrowth of the computer industry, one that required educated people to work in. In the 70s these people were mostly white.
-Early Video Game adopters were the children of wealthy upper-middle class people (mostly white) in the 80s. So the first generation of video game enthusiasts that grew up were going to be disproportionately white since consumer electronics were a luxury.
-These disproportionately white developers made games for a disproportionately white audience.

And here we are today, the economic barriers to computing and education are coming down so its not surprising to see a hobby that mostly used to exist in the hands of the well to do (largely white) now is a hobby shared by many, many people.

You think any of us here have any control over the American economy at large, or what demographics develop an interest in what hobbies? Youre just sitting around going "Kukuku, top Kek, video games So White", and complaining that other people aren't self flagellating enough.

People on this thread may not have direct control over it, but that doesn't excuse that every other response is about how no one should be discussing this, or "I don't care about this, why should you?"

If you think some introspection and awareness of how games sold on a global scale are received on a global scale all counts as "self flagellation," then you're one of the ones deserving of some of this ridicule tbh. If you're not dismissing the discussion and aren't complaining about its existence, then maybe you aren't among the ones being called out.

You seem aware that there is a problem though.
 

Sylas

Member
This seems like one of the strangest choices of game to have this thread centered around. There is, unlike many other games, actually a black person in the game. In a relationship. With a white person. They have a family. By any measure, Demetrius and Maru are both two of the most successful characters in the entire game.

Having 2 black characters is enough to not have to talk about it? That sounds more like the 'checking a box' thing than anyone who's arguing for more diversity has even talked about.

I think it's clear that diversity in games is severely lacking and there's a lot of work to do in that regard.

However, I think that if including diverse characters isn't something that comes naturally to you, then the way that you do that seems kind of fraught and difficult to do well. You can run into tokenism, you can run into being stereotypical, you can into the problem of making someone simply a white person with a black face.

And even if you manage to make authentic experiences from diverse people, how much of those different experiences do you add and what kinds do you add? Do you add more black characters while neglecting East Asian, South Asian, Native American, Latino, etc. characters? Do you have people who aren't gender normative or people in poly relationships?
I'm going to keep saying this until I'm blue in the face. It's not always about including the culture. Sometimes just seeing yourself in the game is perfect. Sometimes it's just being able to point at a character and saying, "I visually identify with them!" Minorities are people, so portray them as people. Not every inclusion has to be about their culture. Most games don't include any real references to real world culture to begin with. Outside of, "idk white folk," that is.

As for your last point. Sure. Why not? The narrative shouldn't have to justify someone's existence--it doesn't for white characters in non-narrative-driven games.
 
Having 2 black characters is enough to not have to talk about it? That sounds more like the 'checking a box' thing than anyone who's arguing for more diversity has even talked about.
The way some people respond (or react to the existence of) the discussion is wild to me. People who immediately conflate I observation with "attack and one's character," or say people are "pulling the defense veracity card," as if it's some cheap tactic in a poker game where you have to "win," or think of acknowledging lack of diversity as some kind of self-torture for white people, or thinking of it in terms of quotes/checklists/binary all-or-nothing affairs... It's just odd to me. Stuff like this:
So are you asking for a quota or something?
 
Having 2 black characters is enough to not have to talk about it? That sounds more like the 'checking a box' thing than anyone who's arguing for more diversity has even talked about.

No. You might want to work on responding to the things people say before trying to misconstrue them into some attack on your ideals. I said it seemed like a strange choice of game as opposed to games that are simply missing out on minorities in general. There are a total of 34(?) characters in Stardew Valley, not all of which are even human.

I also added to my post before I noticed yours so I'll tack it here:

There aren't any Asians unless you count Mr. Qi - who is a stereotype in and of himself, along with Pam, but no one is bringing them up in the game at all. Or Hispanics, even. Unless Alex's skin tone is more than just a sick tan like I always assumed it was. So the idea of them being token minorities seems pretty silly.

What percentage of each minority should be added before they are no longer tokens? Should we do a solid split between each of these? That's ridiculous, obviously. Maru and Demetrius had some of the more interesting back story of the characters along with that. I'd hardly call them tokens.
 
Why are some of you comparing the demographics in Stardew Valley to real places? You aren't fighting monsters in mines, and meeting farm fairies in Omaha Nebraska.

I have no reason to believe that the creator set out to make the game the way is but I do think they ran into the Scott Pilgrim vs The World issue of: "oh shit, this is super white!" Its a fairly easy problem to encounter within games.

Inspired by does not mean 100% factual. I get what the dev was going for with this town.
This seems like one of the strangest choices of game to have this thread centered around. There is, unlike many other games, actually a black person in the game. In a relationship. With a white person. They have a family. By any measure, Demetrius and Maru are both two of the most successful characters in the entire game.

I feel the same way about this game being a strange choice to try and promote diversity. A game where you are literally a fish out of water coming into a type of life and environment you aren't accustomed to. The only person I'm supposed to be represented by is the avatar. We certainly need more representation for certain genders/cultures/beliefs in gaming but I also think not every game needs to be a battleground for those issues as well.
 

Sylas

Member
No. You might want to work on responding to the things people say before trying to misconstrue them into some attack on your ideals. I said it seemed like a strange choice of game as opposed to games that are simply missing out on minorities in general. There are a total of 34(?) characters in Stardew Valley, not all of which are even human.

I also added to my post before I noticed yours so I'll tack it here:



What percentage of each minority should be added before they are no longer tokens? Should we do a solid split between each of these?

It's not all that unusual a game to point out, as it's already trying--and the OP itself is simply saying, "Hey, great. It'd be cool if it kept going down this road." Plus it's a pretty popular game right now, and a lot of people didn't even know about it in the first place until it came out.

It's genuinely not that unusual, especially since the intent of the thread isn't even to attack the creator. You coming in and saying, "There are 2 black characters and they are successful!" is a little beside the point.

As for the percentage--I don't know. I don't claim to be an expert on it. More than 2 in a cast of 34 could be cool, though. Why not a few more?
 

LPride

Banned
You seem aware that there is a problem though.

Yes, I mean there is a problem, but I dont think its as big of an issue as people seem to make it out to be. Theres a million other hobbies out there that have no end of diversity problems, but nobody cares, because they recognize that these things are hobbies and Not Important in the long run.

Theres nobody talking about a diversity crisis in whittling, fishing, muscle car enthusiasts, stamp collecting, model train building, etc but Id bet my balls that these are all majority white hobbies.

So why are people talking about diversity in Video Games, which is majority white for the reasons I outlined in my previous post? I think theres two reasons for this: 1) Since other groups are coming in to the video game hobby they would obviously want to be represented in the games they play. This makes sense to me, although I don't understand it very much since you almost never see the palyer character anyway in most FPS games, and most RPGs are either gonna be from Japan, or come with a character creator. Still though, this is a legit complaint, and it makes sense, and its understandable why we are seeing a transition from a majority white hobby to a more varied pool of players.

Number 2 is the reason I cannot stand though. Video Game Enthusiasts are a bunch of idiots who take thier hobby way too seriously. The see #1 happening and think "Hmm, well Video Games are the most important thing in the world, and if they aren't properly aligned with my politics then somethings wrong! Since I like video games, and I am Important, video games must also Be Important. Also, maybe if I can convince the world how Important video games are mom and dad will stop telling me to get off the couch." Videogames are Not Important, and people acting like they are just grinds my gears. Video Games are just another avenue for businessmen to invade your wallet and inundate you with advertising. Its a miracle a decent one pops out every now and again.

The crazy lengths people go to to prove that the video gaming population is 50% women is another symptom of this. Theyre obviously not, which is why such statistics have to be stuffed by including mobile games or facebook shit. The only people who really, really captial-C Care about opening up demographics are the ones trying to sell the stuff, so that they have a bigger pool of potential buyers. Is it REALLY an issue if women dont like the Xbox as much as men do?
 
No. You might want to work on responding to the things people say before trying to misconstrue them into some attack on your ideals. I said it seemed like a strange choice of game as opposed to games that are simply missing out on minorities in general. There are a total of 34(?) characters in Stardew Valley, not all of which are even human.

The only way this changes within the industry is to have this discussion not only when games do it 100% wrong or 100% right but even when games do it half way and to suggest how something that tries still has room for improvement. The mentality that Stardew is being singled out can only come when you're stuck on the idea that any discussion of diversity is a moral judgment of the creator or players. It isn't.

Yes, I mean there is a problem, but I dont think its as big of an issue as people seem to make it out to be. Theres a million other hobbies out there that have no end of diversity problems, but nobody cares, because they recognize that these things are hobbies and Not Important in the long run.

Theres nobody talking about a diversity crisis in whittling, fishing, muscle car enthusiasts, stamp collecting, model train building, etc but Id bet my balls that these are all majority white hobbies.

Gaming isn't just a hobby in the same vein as stamp collecting, it's also a story telling and artistic medium. Same as books, music, and film where diversity discussion are also had. If you're not interested in that aspect of the discussion and see gaming simply as a consumable product and nothing more, you don't need to have the discussion. You're free to enjoy games as you like.
 
I have no problem with hoping for a diverse cast in games.

But that does not require indie devs to adhere to some kind of minimum number of minorities, its their game. They get to choose.
 
I have no problem with hoping for a diverse cast in games.

But that does not require indie devs to adhere to some kind of minimum number of minorities, its their game. They get to choose.

No one said they don't get to choose. They get to choose a lot of what goes into the game in several aspects and, as the customers, we get to critique.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Yes, I mean there is a problem, but I dont think its as big of an issue as people seem to make it out to be. Theres a million other hobbies out there that have no end of diversity problems, but nobody cares, because they recognize that these things are hobbies and Not Important in the long run.

stop

this isn't true

also you say video game enthusiasts are idiots, and go on to talk about how mobile and facebook games aren't 'real' games? lmao man, that's sad.
 

LPride

Banned
Gaming isn't just a hobby in the same vein as stamp collecting, it's also a story telling and artistic medium. Same as books, music, and film where diversity discussion are also had.

Theres still a massive organization of people inside of all of these forms of media (Hollywood, distribution labels, etc) who are intent on pumping out schlock to fill thier wallets. And when communities such as NeoGAF talk about diversity in film they usually end up arguing about stupid shit like The Avengers or Batman vs Superman anyway.

Yea, those super hero movies are really pushing the boundaries of an artistic medium, lmao.
 
Yes, I mean there is a problem, but I dont think its as big of an issue as people seem to make it out to be. Theres a million other hobbies out there that have no end of diversity problems, but nobody cares, because they recognize that these things are hobbies and Not Important in the long run.

Theres nobody talking about a diversity crisis in whittling, fishing, muscle car enthusiasts, stamp collecting, model train building, etc but Id bet my balls that these are all majority white hobbies.

So why are people talking about diversity in Video Games, which is majority white for the reasons I outlined in my previous post? I think theres two reasons for this: 1) Since other groups are coming in to the video game hobby they would obviously want to be represented in the games they play. This makes sense to me, although I don't understand it very much since you almost never see the palyer character anyway in most FPS games, and most RPGs are either gonna be from Japan, or come with a character creator. Still though, this is a legit complaint, and it makes sense, and its understandable why we are seeing a transition from a majority white hobby to a more varied pool of players.

Number 2 is the reason I cannot stand though. Video Game Enthusiasts are a bunch of idiots who take thier hobby way too seriously. The see #1 happening and think "Hmm, well Video Games are the most important thing in the world, and if they aren't properly aligned with my politics then somethings wrong! Since I like video games, and I am Important, video games must also Be Important. Also, maybe if I can convince the world how Important video games are mom and dad will stop telling me to get off the couch." Videogames are Not Important, and people acting like they are just grinds my gears. Video Games are just another avenue for businessmen to invade your wallet and inundate you with advertising. Its a miracle a decent one pops out every now and again.

...reason 3: this is a video game forum. You're going to see discussion about it here.

People are able to care about more than one thing, and them "caring too much," about one thing doesn't preclude them caring about other, more important issues.

If you don't see discussion about diversity in other fields/hobbies/settings, it's because you're not paying attention. Compare the prevalence of this discussion in regards to video games to the discussion in other similar media and you'll see plenty. Hear about the Oscars recently?
 

Xbob42

Banned
Bboy AJ, good thread. However, you're wasting time arguing with these people. Don't try to convince them. Notice how confrontational you are despite seemingly innocuous remark on diversity in games. Most of whom are white. Do not engage white people on racial issues. They are, for the most part with rare exceptions, incapable of talking about race in a serious, mature manner without resorting to arguing like complete children. Even talking about diversity in games makes them lose their shit and make up false equivalence arguments about no white people being in Wu-Tang Clan. Don't engage white people on race, you'll always regret it.

Holy shit, I was just in a Fox news comment section for laughs and this is actually the most racist thing I've read all day. What the hell?
 
No one said they don't get to choose. They get to choose a lot of what goes into the game in several aspects and, as the customers, we get to critique.

I have no issue with that.

Although, I have no issue with the way the game is now, just the same way as if minority races were actually the majority within the game.
 

LPride

Banned
stop

this isn't true

also you say video game enthusiasts are idiots, and go on to talk about how mobile and facebook games aren't 'real' games? lmao man, that's sad.

Are you really going to tell me that the demographics of people who play Mobile or Facebook games are not different from those who purchase gaming PCs or Consoles? And that conflating the two is not ridiculous?

If it wasnt clear from the tone of my posts, I don't consider stuff like Uncharted to be 'real' games, not the other way around.
 

RedFury

Member
I don't know how a game about farming has not 1 Mexican, Cuban, Guatemalan,etc in it. I'm half joking, some diversity would be good but if they have a black character isn't that some diversity? There's not a lot of NPCs to begin with.

Colbert immigration testimony https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t39uqg6e4so
Good for a laugh if you haven't already seen it.
 
Theres nobody talking about a diversity crisis in whittling, fishing, muscle car enthusiasts, stamp collecting, model train building, etc but Id bet my balls that these are all majority white hobbies.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if all of these communities have their own discussions on this subject. They're certainly far off the radar of most GAFers so we just don't see them.

It's not hard to imagine a model train builder's meetup where one single black guy shows up, and everyone else is white and taken aback and they give him the cold shoulder, prompting a flurry of discussion online about how the hobby is exclusionary afterward.
 
Theres still a massive organization of people inside of all of these forms of media (Hollywood, distribution labels, etc) who are intent on pumping out schlock to fill thier wallets. And when communities such as NeoGAF talk about diversity in film they usually end up arguing about stupid shit like The Avengers or Batman vs Superman anyway.

Yea, those super hero movies are really pushing the boundaries of an artistic medium, lmao.

Alright. I'm not sure what you're getting across beyond the fact that you don't enjoy the idea that the discussion exists in the first place. As I said before you're free to enjoy games as you like and receive from them what you want while others are free to receive what they want out of the medium. The last diversity topic on OT about film that I remember was about Hail, Ceaser, which was a movie built on the fact that it was an artistic statement rather than a money grub so dismissing the discussion in that it only occurs with things you perceive as having no substance beyond being a consumable product is wrong in the grand scale of the medium and the discussion around it.
 
The only way this changes within the industry is to have this discussion not only when games do it 100% wrong or 100% right but even when games do it half way and to suggest how something that tries still has room for improvement. The mentality that Stardew is being singled out can only come when you're stuck on the idea that any discussion of diversity is a moral judgment of the creator or players. It isn't.

I'll admit that I misread the OP to an extent, not realizing his point was less about Stardew Valley and more about indie games in general. I'll still hold to my argument - I think Stardew Valley did a good job - but I can see the viewpoint that other people have in this thread at least.
 
I don't know how a game about farming has not 1 Mexican, Cuban, Guatemalan,etc in it. I'm half joking, some diversity would be good but if they have a black character isn't that some diversity? There's not a lot of NPCs to begin with.

I was about to say. At least there's two black characters, we couldn't get a Jose in here?

Tbh in Stardew Valley I don't have an issue. My player character is one of the darkest in the whole town and he's basically the wealthiest, strongest, and most loved person in the valley.
 

SOR5

Member
I have no problem with hoping for a diverse cast in games.

But that does not require indie devs to adhere to some kind of minimum number of minorities, its their game. They get to choose.

This is what I think, I always think its best to be true to what art you're trying to convey, I don't think a lack of diversity is intentional or malicious in Stardew Valley either.

But then again, its not like having more diversity would compromise anything.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Are you really going to tell me that the demographics of people who play Mobile or Facebook games are not different from those who purchase gaming PCs or Consoles? And that conflating the two is not ridiculous?

If it wasnt clear from the tone of my posts, I don't consider stuff like Uncharted to be 'real' games, not the other way around.

games are games, no matter what platform you play them on.
 
Theres still a massive organization of people inside of all of these forms of media (Hollywood, distribution labels, etc) who are intent on pumping out schlock to fill thier wallets. And when communities such as NeoGAF talk about diversity in film they usually end up arguing about stupid shit like The Avengers or Batman vs Superman anyway.

Yea, those super hero movies are really pushing the boundaries of an artistic medium, lmao.

I think you underestimate the power of schlock. You think racist schock of old hollywood had zero part in perpetuating racist stereotypes of blacks and asians and other minorities back in the day?
 
I'm surprised that slipped by almost without comment, tbh.

The poster should have a tag with that comment in it, since they almost exclusively make that argument in these threads. I think most people ignore them.

Just fucking try to make someone else than White Characters. I thought video games allowed for limitless expression within the realm of what is computationally possible to represent.

Dude, Krobus has feelings.

latest
 

Lime

Member
I am sorry, but based on this simple request in the OP and some others throughout this thread, it seems like the same tired arguments are trotted out to defend the status quo. There is always something in any game that excuses the overwhelming Whiteness in video games. Not this game, this is made by one guy. Not this game, this is historically accurate. Not this game, it has to earn money. Not this game, this takes place in Only White People World. Not this game, just make your own damn game. And on and on and on. There's never any case where the criticism of representing other skin colors or ethnicities is granted or accepted, it's always dismissal and negation of any problem with the overwhelming Whiteness in games:

  • The game is based on real history / is historically accurate, no non-White people were around back then! *dragon flies by*
  • The game is based on fantasy, so of course it's okay not to have any non-White characters in the game *anything is possible, except non-White people*
  • The game is made by one person, it's too much to ask for him/her to spend energy on other characters than White people *40 individually created characters are all White*
  • There's one brown character in the game, so your criticism is invalid *Brown character is a NPC in a sea of Whiteness*
  • White people are the target demographics, of course the characters are going to be White *assumes white consumers don't want to see non-White characters i.e. are racists*
  • The developers couldn't afford to allocate money to creating non-White characters *screenshot of meticulously rendered wall texture lighted by million-dollar graphical engine*
  • They're just video games, they're not political at all *plays as American soldier shooting Middle Eastern citizens*
  • Don't infringe on the artistic vision!! *goes into another thread to criticize FPS level design*
  • Just mod the game yourself *has to learn texture editing, map rendering, and actual modding*
  • Why don't you just make games yourself? *has to switch educations, jobs, social capital, skillsets, go through all the racism in the games industry and culture*
  • You're the real racist for talking about racism!
  • Quotas / affirmative action / hire the best person for the job! *does not understand the point of the system always being stacked against you*
  • Censorship! *does not understand the concept of censorship*
  • You're so negative, nobody wants to talk with you *lives every single day in White supremacy and is met with dismissal and diet racism every time you try to criticize the status quo in the mildest way possible*

Just fucking try to make someone else than White Characters. I thought video games allowed for limitless expression within the realm of what is computationally possible to represent.
 

bomblord1

Banned
But it isn't a HM game, and even if it were, there's nothing wrong with having more diversity in that setting unless seeng non-white looking characters is jarring for you.

Also find the notion that the gameplay of these games are reliant on there characters' skin colors to the point you couldn't have a more diverse cast without breaking the experience to be highly suspect.

So because Harvest Moon didn't have a lot of brown people, Stardew Valley shouldn't either? Plus, I was addressing the usage of "real life demographics." Not Harvest Moon.

Again, it has nothing to do with cultural representation. Just skin-color. Just seeing more people with brown skin doing things. You don't have to write them differently, you don't have to do anything except change the tone of their skin.

What? no.

You guys seemed to be trying to pin down what culture or area this was meant to represent based on the creators influences. I was just saying considering the creator has said the game is heavily influenced by Harvest Moon the culture or demographic represented in the game is more than likely intentionally shaped by that instead of a real world area.
 

Infinite

Member
The poster should have a tag with that comment in it, since they almost exclusively make that argument in these threads. I think most people ignore them.
I don't think she's wrong no matter how harshly she worded it. White privilege and white fragility makes these sort of discussions excruciating. Her only mistake is assuming only white people can buy into it.
 

lifa-cobex

Member
games are games, no matter what platform you play them on.

yes/no, maybe

I have to agree that involving Facebook or phone games is a odd ball factor to involve.

My mum tends to play many Facebook games.
However,
These games would be simple things like crossword puzzles, general knowledge or Sudoku.
Things that you would get in a general newspaper.

So I wouldn't agree that is something to cater into a study's of "X% of women play games"
 

Lime

Member
Holy shit, I was just in a Fox news comment section for laughs and this is actually the most racist thing I've read all day. What the hell?

I'm surprised that slipped by almost without comment, tbh.

The poster should have a tag with that comment in it, since they almost exclusively make that argument in these threads. I think most people ignore them.

Based off people's reaction every single time these threads come up, Cindi Mayweather is absolutely justified in discounting the potential for White people to show some compassion and understanding to what it is to be living under contemporary White supremacy. Instead of sitting down and listening to what marginalized people have to say, they trot out all these irrational and uninformed defenses for maintaining Things As They Are and Always Should Be. Read this to understand where Cindi is coming from:

The White Man's (New) Burden

"Like the rest of us, you as a White male are laboring under the sins of your fathers. No matter what it will be assumed that you are racist, misogynist, homophobic, etc. until proven otherwise. It may suck but the White male in this society has the burden of proof when it comes to not being seen as a dick. The same way Black men would have to be very cognizant of how they approached White women in the streets for fear of lynching, that's how cognizant you have to be about how you come off. [...] To those of you who don't get it, I will say this; every time I encounter White people in any setting I am self-conscious about about being the best example of a Black man I can be so that I don't reinforce stereotypes about My gender and My race. That is a burden I did not ask for, it is one I was born into and you know what? It's exhausting. It is exhausting to have to constantly monitor yourself because your appearance and demeanor may get you rejected, fired, or in some cases killed. It is exhausting. Ask any Indian or Arab person what it's like to be assumed to be a terrorist. Ask any woman what it's like to have to make sure that she doesn't do anything to “invite” men to harass or attack her. Ask any Black woman what it's like to have to measure their words so that they are not viewed as being “angry.” I bet each and every one of them will tell you it's god-damned exhausting. That's the burden the rest of us have been carrying since before we can remember. And now, it is yours as well."

http://exiteleven.blogspot.dk/2014/07/the-white-man-new-burden.html

and read the GAF thread in case you disagree with the article: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=856183
 
This is what I think, I always think its best to be true to what art you're trying to convey, I don't think a lack of diversity is intentional or malicious in Stardew Valley either.

But then again, its not like having more diversity would compromise anything.

People selling something they create will always take into account their audience. If they're willing to make updates and pitches to their game to improve "quality of life," aspects like control improvements or character appearance customization that people ask for, no one will say "oh, they're being forced into changing their vision." It's just an improvement, and it's ultimately up to the creator. They're not forced to do anything, but most good developers keep their players (all of their players) in mind.

I'm surprised that slipped by almost without comment, tbh.

I understand the sentiment though. Most of the people posting here are white, there is a never ending deluge of posts trying to shut down or distract from the discussion. It's safe to assume most of those sentiments come from people who can afford to ignore or not to care about this problem, i.e. White people.

Problem is there are people from all walks of life who can't grasp why the discussion matters, or they can, but they still tacitly support eradicating this discussion.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
yes/no, maybe

I have to agree that involving Facebook or phone games is a odd ball factor to involve.

My mum tends to play many Facebook games.
However,
These games would be simple things like crossword puzzles, general knowledge or Sudoku.
Things that you would get in a general newspaper.

So I wouldn't agree that is something to cater into a study's of "X% of women play games"

so if a game can be played in a physical space, it doesn't count? there are also lots of games that people play on facebook that aren't just copies of games that can be printed in book.
 

jblank83

Member
Empathizing with someone upset is one thing.

However the logic is antagonistic to the goal of tackling racism as a subject, or more specifically diversity in video games, in a way that is enlightening for everyone. In this topic, for instance, you want a white person (I'm assuming the developer of Stardew Valley is "white") to be more diverse in their portrayal of characters. By necessity this requires "talking with white people about racism", and doing so in a way that is open to understanding all the complexities of such a difficult issue.
 

LPride

Banned
I think you underestimate the power of schlock. You think racist schock of old hollywood had zero part in perpetuating racist stereotypes of blacks and asians and other minorities back in the day?

I think this quote is a good way to sum up my feeligns on the matter. Popular culture is a bellweather, not really a cause to be fought for. It shows us where our culture is at that moment in time. Its like a thermometer, useful for taking a temperature reading but a thermometer couldnt tell you why something was hot to begin with.

Certainly the golden age of film and the Vaudville era of stage perpetuted racist stereotypes, but I don't know if Id argue that they were propaganda vehicles. I bring up propaganda because that would suggest that people were conciously pushing such sterotypes, instead of just exhibiting them because those were the ways people thought of other groups of people at the time.

So those films can tell us about how people thought back then, but it cannot really tell us why. In fifty years we can do the same with the video games of this era, and I think the changing demographics will be readily apparent. Trying to 'fix' them is like trying to cure a symptom instead of the disease though, like I said these popular culture items reflect the makers at the time of making them. Video games are a thermometer, theyre not the cure. This is why I was railing on how Not Important they are, because they arent driving the conversation on race, we are having that conversation and its showing up in our entertainment as a result. Everyone gets the cause and effect backwards and it drives me up the wall.
 

Xbob42

Banned
Based off people's reaction every single time these threads come up, Cindi Mayweather is absolutely justified in discounting the potential for White people to show some compassion and understanding to what it is to be living under contemporary White supremacy. Instead of sitting down and listening to what marginalized people have to say, they trot out all these irrational and uninformed defenses for maintaining Things As They Are and Always Should Be. Read this to understand where Cindi is coming from:



http://exiteleven.blogspot.dk/2014/07/the-white-man-new-burden.html

and read the GAF thread in case you disagree with the article: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=856183

Here's the problem, though:

1. You literally have no idea what the skin color of anybody in this thread is. You can make educated guesses, but that's not the same as having the facts.

2. Rather than holding someone personally accountable for their actions, they go straight for the "white people" argument... which is racist. It's not vaguely racist, or kinda racist, it's just racist.

If I have one major gripe about race discussions, it's that people use it as an excuse to paint people with broad strikes and take away personal accountability from both sides. What one person says isn't representative of a race because we're not fucking hive minds.
 

Infinite

Member
Empathizing with someone upset is one thing.

However the logic is antagonistic to the goal of tackling racism as a subject, or more specifically diversity in video games, in a way that is enlightening for everyone. In this topic, for instance, you want a white person (I'm assuming the developer of Stardew Valley is "white") to be more diverse in their portrayal of characters. By necessity this requires "talking with white people about racism", and doing so in a way that is open to understanding all the complexities of such a difficult issue.
OP and Cindi aren't the same person.
 
Here's the problem, though:

1. You literally have no idea what the skin color of anybody in this thread is. You can make educated guesses, but that's not the same as having the facts.

2. Rather than holding someone personally accountable for their actions, they go straight for the "white people" argument... which is racist. It's not vaguely racist, or kinda racist, it's just racist.

If I have one major gripe about race discussions, it's that people use it as an excuse to paint people with broad strikes and take away personal accountability from both sides. What one person says isn't representative of a race because we're not fucking hive minds.

Nope. Most of these people are white. That's the largest demo make up of the forum so it's pretty much in the green. You can also tell who is white by their language, especially if they say things like "there's no white people in Wu-Tang Clan". It's pretty easy to deduce that person's racial upbringing..

That said, a lot of people don't want an actual, serious mature discussion on race. But white people have the worst of it, and this (and many other threads) are endemic of that observation.
 
Nope. Most of these people are white. That's the largest demo make up of the forum so it's pretty much in the green. You can also tell who is white by their language, especially if they say things like "there's no white people in Wu-Tang Clan". It's pretty easy to deduce that person's racial upbringing..

That said, a lot of people don't want an actual, serious mature discussion on race. But white people have the worst of it, and this (and many other threads) are endemic of that observation.

projection
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
The weird undercurrent that I get from a lot of threads about diversity and inclusiveness, is that by somehow including minority characters in your story/game/movie, etc, is somehow going to change that product into a "black/asian/mexican/indian,etc" production.

Like there is some kind of mystical cultural divide between, say, Black Americans, and White Americans that is so monumental that it'd be impossible for a non-black to relate. It's the "otherness" factor that drives me crazy. Black people are people. Asian people are people. White people are people. Mexican people are people, etc, etc. If you spend any significant amount of time in America, you'll discover that the differences between racial demographics on a cultural level aren't as different as, like, Fox News would have you believe.

It's not some animal kingdom type shit going on when it comes to ethnic diversity. "Here, you can see the elusive 'negro', in his natural habitat! Observe how he approaches his intended mate, and begins his mating dance with, 'Hey, shorty, let me holla at you for a minute!'"

I mean, fuck. It drives me crazy. I'm a nerd. I'm a geek. I love video games, comic books, and D&D. I'm also a black guy. All of my friends are also nerds and geeks, and love these things as well. They make up a wide range of ethnicities, from Black, to white, to Persian, to Chinese, to Korean, and everything else. We sit around and argue about spot checks and cell processors, and which superhero can beat which, etc, etc.

There seems to be this notion from non-black America as a whole that blacks walk, talk, and act in some special way that only a black person can understand. This can also extend to other minority groups as well, but that should go without saying. It's not hard to create a black character in fiction. Or a white character, or an asian character, etc, etc. You just write a character.

Shows like How to Get Away With Murder or Scandal have black women as their leads. Are the writers wracking their brains trying to "write black," for Analese and Olivia? No. They're just writing characters, who happen to be played by two black women. There's no magic juju that needs to happen to write a person of color. Sure, you can do research if you want, to maybe try and glean a little bit more nuance to your writing of that character, but not all black people come from an episode of the Wire. Not all white people come from an episode of 7th Heaven.

You don't need David Attenborough to come in and explain the complexities of the African American mind. You don't need a degree in Ebonics in order to write a "realistic" black character in your fictional story. It shouldn't be that hard to wrap your heads around the idea that minorities in America come from so many different areas and upbringings that portraying them in just one way is grossly inaccurate.

The Stardew Valley guy clearly had no problems with adding diversity to his cast, even in the limited way he did in this game. He didn't agonize over making his black guy "black enough." He just created a character, and decided he'd be black.

I'm also in an interracial marriage, which is nice to see in gaming and film and television more often. My wife is white. I'm black, as I mentioned before, but you'd think we had dicks growing out of our foreheads judging by the looks we get from people when we're walking down the street holding hands. And we live in Los Angeles, an insanely diverse city.

Anyway, the point is that writing for a "black" character is a BS excuse. There's no reason why a developer living in the US should shy away from writing about other ethnicities, especially if said ethnicity is also based in America. There's nothing wrong with having an all white cast if that's your desire, but I do have to wonder why, exactly, having an all white cast is your desire when your world is a fictional place, with fictional characters.

Hell, the Steam-Punk novella that I wrote a year ago stars a middle aged white man, and his Persian grand-daughter, and African grand-son. And a robot. I didn't set out to fill some kind of "diversity quota" when I created that book and its cast, I just thought it'd be interesting to have those characters as my leads. I could have made them all white, sure. But, why not mix things up a bit? Did I feel pressured or forced to have my comic series, The Gamma Gals, star three teenage girls because of political correctness? No. I just thought it'd be cool to have a comic book starring girl superheroes, because it's something I don't see that much of. I draw and write what I'd love to see/read myself. But I also take into account gender and racial issues when creating the world and characters of my fiction. I don't feel forced for expanding my range of thinking to be more inclusive.
 

Lime

Member
Here's the problem, though:

1. You literally have no idea what the skin color of anybody in this thread is. You can make educated guesses, but that's not the same as having the facts.

2. Rather than holding someone personally accountable for their actions, they go straight for the "white people" argument... which is racist. It's not vaguely racist, or kinda racist, it's just racist.

If I have one major gripe about race discussions, it's that people use it as an excuse to paint people with broad strikes and take away personal accountability from both sides. What one person says isn't representative of a race because we're not fucking hive minds.

You just have to understand why someone would be prejudiced against white people to be racist. Just like Black men have to operate with the dangers of how people perceive them to be dangerous to the point of lethality, just like Muslim Middle Eastern people have to operate with the oppression of being labelled a terrorist by virtue of their religion or appearance, so do White people have to operate with the experiences of White people as ignorant (unintentionally) racist unwilling to listen to oppressed folks. Like the writer states, this is not fair at all and he doesn't want this, but that how things are until people try to do something about it.

projection

experience
 
Here's the problem, though:

1. You literally have no idea what the skin color of anybody in this thread is. You can make educated guesses, but that's not the same as having the facts.

2. Rather than holding someone personally accountable for their actions, they go straight for the "white people" argument... which is racist. It's not vaguely racist, or kinda racist, it's just racist.

If I have one major gripe about race discussions, it's that people use it as an excuse to paint people with broad strikes and take away personal accountability from both sides. What one person says isn't representative of a race because we're not fucking hive minds.

You do see the exact same type of dismissive responses in these threads every single time though. That's indicative of an overarching problem.

It's in no way equally bad of both sides either.
 
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