They do. I know one surgeon who can't stop talking about his oldtimer during procedures and how he intends to fix it up. Or surgeons talking about their wives or vacations or sports. It's just a workplace after all.
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WP: Surgeon convo recorded during woman's operation
- Thread starter Mr. X
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They do. I know one surgeon who can't stop talking about his oldtimer during procedures and how he intends to fix it up. Or surgeons talking about their wives or vacations or sports. It's just a workplace after all.
Another great point
Fried Food
Banned
sue the shit outta them. any decent lawyer should be able to win this
SnowFlakeCake
Member
There's only so many antibiotics out there and resistance is a big thing, sometimes penicillin is the best option despite a possible allergy. Anaphylaxis is a proper allergy for penicillin but loads of people think they have an allergy to the medication despite it just being a side effect. A rash for example when using penicillin is not a true allergy, particularly one disappearing after 72 hours. You don't want to be using 2nd and 3rd line treatments when something like penicillin would do the job, caus you're fucking if those narrow and broad spectrum antibiotics so fuck all for you because you've built up a resistance. If that happens, good fucking luck and all you will do is pray.
It's like with ACE inhibitors, I've seen loads of people that think they will die if they use it because they got a dry cough when using them however it's a very common side effect.
When I was in hospital, talking to surgeons always made me laugh because they simply did not give a fuck about what any other consultant or patient had to say, they knew what they were doing and did not like being told by others how to do their job. Rude as fuck as well which I loved, they make me wish I was one of them.
bootsthecat
Banned
This I will certainly agree with. Of course if something of this nature comes to light, someone is getting talked to. Nobody is above the law imo, so to speak.
I suppose my comment was due to my reaction to some of the responses, in that it felt as if it was a call to flat out crucify anyone who would dare to make such comments without regard to the scenario.
Never heard it myself. Jokes about other stuff like the smell, sounds and obscene amount of blood in some procedures to newbies? Definitely. Jokes about weird shit that happens during surgery? Sure. Never heard anyone make demeaning jokes about the patient though - although I have heard demeaning jokes being made about other surgeons, now that I think about it.
But yeah, most of the OR talk is pretty damn bland. The kind of stuff you'd hear around the water cooler at any random cubicle farm.
crazygambit
Member
That's a really stupid notion.
You'd be ok if the surgeons played actual Russian Roulette with you as long as you didn't die?
If they increase the expected risk of your dying or having complications, they should be held accountable. Even if the outcome was successful.
Yeah, I wouldn't take it that far.
You would think having one of the best paying jobs in the world would be enough.
UnluckyKate
Member
surgeons are crude and have god complex.
News at 11...
News at 11...
This is NOT "dark humor". It's a conversation about sexually assaulting a vulnerable woman. The immediate dismissal of something like this being said by someone in a position of absolute power over another is putrid. None of us here should ever wonder why it's so hard for women to speak up as victims, this horrible ass thread shows why in detail.
This is the exact mentality of my employer.
In today's litigious society, no point taking the risk. Or as stated earlier, just take a 5th gen instead of Ancef; has an even lower probability of cross reaction.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
You would be surprised how much some of them(that I've talked to) whine about compensation, regardless of living incredibly comfortable. I'm almost surprised there wasn't an ACA mention in there, just cause.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
A 5th gen? Are you an actual physician, because what you're saying makes no sense. The USA may be a litigious society, but even then I refuse to believe there are hospitals that are so concerned over a rash that they're going to be shelling out for a 5th gen cephalosporin for surgical prophylaxis. And that's not even getting into the aneurysm infectious disease would blow when they found out about this.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Is it? If someone hadn't made a Bill Cosby joke at the end, the first two statements/questions could have been legitimate.
Would I fire an employees ass if I caught them doing it: Yep.
Surgeons have a too high value skillset for me to care about what they say, especially if they are good and perform succesful surgeries. They're not politicians, let them shittalk their clients all day long if that's what it takes to keep a cool head and steady hands during procedures.
Yeah I'm with you. The part of the conversation about whether or not to sexually assault her didn't even seem like a joke. I'd be pretty fucking freaked out right now if I was a woman these assholes had operated on in the past. I'd be demanding an investigation. That part raised some severe alarm bells.
What in the actual fuck at people defending this. Whether or not they've ever molested/raped a patient, why the fuck would anybody ever think talking about committing sexual assault on an unconscious patient is ok?
Zoe
Member
That case seems very different.
So what the fuck do you want us all to conclude, that the guy whose job it is to save lives is a shit human being? Fine: you're a better person than him because at least you don't crack inappropriate jokes. Satisfied?
Your Entertainer
Member
First of all - we're only getting one side of the story here with regards to her initial consultation with the surgeon and scheduling of the surgery. She appears to have received the appropriate standard of care for an elective procedure. I will say as a health care provider, there are absolutely unpleasant, demanding patients - period - and that their side of the story is seldom accurate, in how they choose to interpret and recall events. The limited amount of information compared to a physician with which they have to comprehend many of the events that take place alone renders their interpretation shoddy. A single day in a clinic will make this abundantly obvious. I don't think things should be taken as a one-way street in which one party can be rude and demanding, and the other must comply.
In regards to the operation, I don't think they necessarily should have said all of those things, especially the "Precious" comments, which could be interpreted racially. That said, I think we'd all be pinned pretty badly if we were recorded speaking "behind someone's back". With regards to non-medical talk going on in an operating room, anyone who has been in their share of surgeries, ie any third year medical student or higher, or nurses, or surgical techs etc - knows the monotony of surgery and the frequent small talk.
With regards to her allergy, that also seemed common-place and not necessarily egregious, at least given the limited information we know. I can definitely see the information she gave as being reasonable doubt for whether she really did have an actual allergy - and the "test" they spoke of seems to be the standard of care as far as I know. I don't think she was in any real danger there.
In regards to the operation, I don't think they necessarily should have said all of those things, especially the "Precious" comments, which could be interpreted racially. That said, I think we'd all be pinned pretty badly if we were recorded speaking "behind someone's back". With regards to non-medical talk going on in an operating room, anyone who has been in their share of surgeries, ie any third year medical student or higher, or nurses, or surgical techs etc - knows the monotony of surgery and the frequent small talk.
With regards to her allergy, that also seemed common-place and not necessarily egregious, at least given the limited information we know. I can definitely see the information she gave as being reasonable doubt for whether she really did have an actual allergy - and the "test" they spoke of seems to be the standard of care as far as I know. I don't think she was in any real danger there.
This is more scary than anything these surgeons did
Jmanunknown
Member
Joking about sexual assaulting someone is not a joke but whatever like I said before People can always find ways to excuse behavior they deem to be morally acceptable to them. So keep making those excuses.
Its in the article that was posted I did not go looking for it obviously the people at the Washington post thought it was similar enough to put a link to that case for the article in this case.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Yes, every rape joke is reprehensible and wrong, and everyone who tells one should be held accountable.
Jesus, and people say there is no such thing as outrage culture.
JSoup
Banned
Sneak?
The article says they used her phone, so they obviously knew it was there.
Now, why they knew she had a phone and allowed her to keep it in the middle of an operation, that's a good question.
The article said she used an audio recorder hidden in her hair
No it doesn't say they used her phone. The doctor talked on HIS cellphone at some point during the surgery, and they made some jokes about everyone having a phone and taking pictures. The recording was done with a small recorder she concealed in her hair.
"The audio recorder was the size of a USB drive. At the time, Easter had braided extensions in her hair. When she was changing into her hospital gown, she put her hair up in a ponytail and stuck the recorder inside."
The article didn't say anything about her phone either.
Joking about something makes it per definition a joke... Even if its a bad or untasteful one.
JSoup
Banned
AH, wait, I see the problem. Firstly you're right. I was reading the story on my phone via NPR and they seem to have errored, if the comments are to be believed. That article made it sound like it was her phone.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The reputation for surgeons having a God Complex is well-earned.
The people who excuse this are the type that don't realize that THEY are the assholes in situations. Sad.
RowdyReverb
Member
I've done several rotations in this hospital system. For some background, this is an educational hospital system that is paid for almost entirely by Harris County tax dollars. Their primary patient base are unfunded, uninsured, and/or undocumented people. It is seen as the safety net hospital. I'm really curious about which hospital specifically this occurred at (there are 2 possibilities), but I haven't heard anything about who they were and what is happening now. I'd be happy to answer any questions people have about the culture or hospital system.
My own 2 cents though. This is probably the worst joking I've heard in these ORs. The surgeons there are generally very professional, especially since they are acting as role models for residents and sometimes students. They are also generally charitable doctors because they work to heal underserved populations often for less pay than they could make elsewhere. It's really a shame. I'm curious about the patient-physician relationship they had that inspired her to sneak in a recorder. I truly hope secret OR recordings don't become a trend however because things said between medical professionals can easily be misconstrued and the last thing we need are surgeons practicing doublethink and adding barriers to communication in the OR.
My own 2 cents though. This is probably the worst joking I've heard in these ORs. The surgeons there are generally very professional, especially since they are acting as role models for residents and sometimes students. They are also generally charitable doctors because they work to heal underserved populations often for less pay than they could make elsewhere. It's really a shame. I'm curious about the patient-physician relationship they had that inspired her to sneak in a recorder. I truly hope secret OR recordings don't become a trend however because things said between medical professionals can easily be misconstrued and the last thing we need are surgeons practicing doublethink and adding barriers to communication in the OR.
Or maybe people will try to understand the deeper context of the situation before suggesting that people should lose their jobs and livelihoods over what is otherwise typical and understandable behaviour.
You can always interpret ambiguous information as badly as you want. You can also interpret it as well as you want.
Reality is - you're not automatically more right or wrong for interpreting it one way or another.
But if you're going to demand significant reprecussions, you better have solid evidence and proof of ill intent and behaviour.
There's no doubt that the operating team could've treated an unconcious patient better and more respectfully. On the flipside, giving people in highly stressful job roles leeway to blow off some of that steam is typically a benefit to the profession and thus everyone that they assist as a whole. You need good team work for surgery - and what better way of getting some camraderie going by skirting the line with humour?
Of course if you ignore all that context, and interpret it in the worst way possible, yeah those people are racist pieces of shit that deserve the full fury that the internet can summon.
loaf of bread
Member
Does it actually say it was a full-blown major allergic reaction though? It says she had a rash and swelling which the doctor acknowledged would happen and if she then went in to get it checked after she would actually be treated for an "allergic reaction". As far as the trouble breathing thing goes I don't think its necessarily out of the question that its just a sort of "hypochondriac" sort of thing or exaggerated; I have people with allergies in my family and they can be a bit paranoid/hyperchondriac at times with that sort of thing.
Not saying it is one way or the other though, it could have been a major reaction as well, I don't know.
People who are all "this is normal, don't tell us you never joke about stupid shit with colleagues" don't seem to understand the difference between two co-workers sometimes joking about "hitting dat" when they've maybe had a sexy client at the office vs. joking about molesting an unconscious person who's in front of you and who they are supposed to be treating professionally. That kind of office talk is still kinda childish & objectifying, but it's not the same as surgeons "joking" about shit like that about the person who's in front of them, being operated on.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
It really is.
When the alternative is stress levels up, reduced performance, poorer team work, it's a more than adequate compromise. Especially if the person is unconscious (and thus not actually (under usual conditions) subject to any jest.
What's the alternative? Clamp down hard on this kind of thing and make a stressful job harder across the board? Yeah, good move there. It's great that people listening to largely private conversation will be less offended, even if it means surgery effectiveness might take a hit.
Also separate the action taken for the antibiotics (totally legit move in and of itself) from the dialogue.
Claude Augario
Member
Not really surprised that there's a defense force for racist comments and suggestions of potential molestation of unconscious women.
The Lone Courier
Member
QFT.
Bonding with your colleagues & having a good team spirit doesn't have to include that kind of shit talk. Justifying their actions as "blowing off steam" just helps this kind of behaviour continue when we could condemn it and aim to have doctors improve their manners at work. The high stress (partly) EXPLAINS the behaviour. It doesn't justify it and there's nothing wrong in demanding these people to do better. I've been in prolonged high stress situations and I've never degraded to a borderline-rapist, sexist asshole.
Besides, is this something that women do as well? Do female surgeons generally joke about sucking/touching someone's hung cock when they see one on an unconscious patient? If it's such a high stress job that it degrades everyone in it into horrible human scum levels of pathetic, it should affect women too, right? Or is this mostly a "man thing" and as such just another form of sexism that is let run rampant among these circle with weak arguments like yours because, hey, everybody does it and they are important people! ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Mr Waluigi
Banned
Lol at the first comment.
The majority of physicians with a degree I've seen are incompetent. Never forget that the person who has the job to heal you also probably hasn't graduated on top of their class.
There is also a strong sense of elitihism among doctors and surgeons because of the prestige of the job (and the money that comes with it).
A lot of people at my local hospital died due to negligence, and a lot have had to come back due to the local physicians fucking up too.
I think there is a problem with the "humor" as well. Yes, a surgeon's job is very stressful and it's good to blow steam off, even if that means making very bad jokes. There is a certain problem with the implication of molestation though, because those aren't just derogatory comments, they imply a criminal act that could very well be done and that shows a very uncaring mind for the patient (and it's a weird thing to think of when you're operating someone, isn't it?)
I don't think that was just stupid humor in private because the guy clearly didn't care for the patient much considering he neglected her allergy.
The majority of physicians with a degree I've seen are incompetent. Never forget that the person who has the job to heal you also probably hasn't graduated on top of their class.
There is also a strong sense of elitihism among doctors and surgeons because of the prestige of the job (and the money that comes with it).
A lot of people at my local hospital died due to negligence, and a lot have had to come back due to the local physicians fucking up too.
I think there is a problem with the "humor" as well. Yes, a surgeon's job is very stressful and it's good to blow steam off, even if that means making very bad jokes. There is a certain problem with the implication of molestation though, because those aren't just derogatory comments, they imply a criminal act that could very well be done and that shows a very uncaring mind for the patient (and it's a weird thing to think of when you're operating someone, isn't it?)
I don't think that was just stupid humor in private because the guy clearly didn't care for the patient much considering he neglected her allergy.
Amen.
Bonding with your colleagues & having a good team spirit doesn't have to include that kind of shit talk. Justifying their actions as "blowing off steam" just helps this kind of behaviour continue when we could condemn it and aim to have doctors improve their manners at work. The high stress (partly) EXPLAINS the behaviour. It doesn't justify it and there's nothing wrong in demanding these people to do better. I've been in prolonged high stress situations and I've never degraded to a borderline-rapist, sexist asshole.
Besides, is this something that women do as well? Do female surgeons generally joke about sucking/touching someone's hung cock when they see one on an unconscious patient? If it's such a high stress job that it degrades everyone in it into horrible human scum levels of pathetic, it should affect women too, right? Or is this mostly a "man thing" and as such just another form of sexism that is let run rampant among these circle with weak arguments like yours because, hey, everybody does it and they are important people! ¯\_(ツ
The other part is to realize that the context is ambiguous as hell.
Surgeons touch their patients. Without the bill cosby line, there's no real reason to interpret it as sexual harassment or rape. But the third doctor might have caught the euphemism and added in the bill cosby line to lighten the mood. This is context that can't be perceived accurately without understanding the specific culture/humour of the team.
Should those doctors get some sensitivity training? Sure. But that's as far as it needs to go. Some people won't be satisfied until they see people been fired. But that's the kind of random whack-a-mole slacktivism that a lot of this shit has degenerated into lately.
IchigoSharingan
Member
False dichotomy logical fallacy.
There are plenty of better, smarter alternatives.
Stressful job? See a therapist. Much smarter than......taking your stress out on your patients.
Yes
People require making sexual assault "jokes" to blow off steam. That's how it works. It's the only way someone can relieve stress ever.
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