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[NHarmonic.]

I think this reasoning is somehow even more disappointing than the actual lack of a female Link.

Lol, what's up with Japanese devs and women?

Damn, people we had the chance for a legend of zelda game starring zelda, but we didn't get it because "WHAT WOULD LINK DO?"...

I'm at a loss for words.

 

[ishibear]

Aonuma buddy, listen to me....do you and your team not possess that magical thing storytellers like to refer to as an imagination? A means to imagine a story that could easily differentiate itself from the kind of story you've told us about a hundred times before? I mean, for example, if you seriously wanted to make Zelda the main character for the series for a change....

-Link could have been....a childhood friend, who would travel with Zelda as a travelling companion in her journey across Hyrule (whether as a dual-protagonist or an unplayable sidekick).
-Link could have been....a celebrated prince of Hyrule who would get kidnapped or imprisoned by Ganon (with Zelda having to rescue him, in a reversal of the traditional LoZ dynamic)
Link could have beena beloved royal protector who Princess Zelda has become particularly fond of, only to mysteriously disappear one night when dark forces steal into Hyrule Castle, thus speaking off Princess Zelda's adventure out into Hyrule as she is determined to learn the truth about his disappearance.
-Link could have been....an older character from what we're normally used to, a seasoned adventurer, who would serve as a metaphor figure for a younger Zelda.
-Link could have been...Zelda's father, a retired adventurer who hung up the green tunic long ago, but who quietly encourages his daughter's fierce rebellious streak as she goes out into the world to have her own adventures.

In my eyes, Aonuma's words here don't so much speak to his staggeringly lack of creativity and imagination when it came to the task developing a new kind of story for this game, but his inability to envision a narrative that would exist out of the traditional rescuing hero/damsel in distress dynamic that has become so ingrained in the series as a whole, which only serves to speak as a fundamental failure on his part as a storyteller.

This is so perfect bless you wise one

This is all I could ever ask for. 😂

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

That says far more about the people getting mad than anyone else.

Maybe, maybe not. We still wouldve been in the same place though. I mean because he didnt say that we would never know. Conversation would be a little different thats all. People wouldnt be mad at the excuse but maybe something so simple as "Link has always been Male".

We've been reading and having these arguments for 2 years internally. Nothing so different than what we been having conversations on with each other.

 

[old manatee]

"We thought about it," said Aonuma, "and decided that if we're going to have a female protagonist it's simpler to have Princess Zelda as the main character."

We could probably successfully encourage them to make a game starring Zelda, but everyone would rather burn them at the stake because this game doesn't star female Link.

 

[GravityMan]

Nintendo should have nipped this in the bud a long time ago. And it would've been better for them to just directly say that they view Link (all the "Links") as a male, end of story. The roundabout reasoning they gave today is just stirring up even more controversy.

I am OK with this. Why the need to gender swap Link? A Zelda game would be a cool way to explore new gameplay idea's as well.

Yeah I agree.

I've felt for many years that Princess Zelda had enough depth to her that Nintendo should consider making her the playable and featured MC in a game one day.

 

[stufte]

Lol, what's up with Japanese devs and women?

Damn, people we had the chance for a legend of zelda game starring zelda, but we didn't get it because "WHAT WOULD LINK DO?"...

I'm at a loss for words.

There was never a real chance.

 

[Not]

Lol, why this thread is 20 pages long?
Never change Gaf

How long u been here, this is the 7th 20+ page thread in the last 2 years at least

 

[Auctopus]

That's a quote that you made up, so I'm not sure why it's relevant.

It's clearly paraphrasing the quote in the OP.

 

[Jobbs]

Here you go.

I love Ghibli movies and this is so fucking disappointing

 

[blankempathy]

???

What, exactly, change exists in making a character who against all odds courageously puts himself in dangerous situations to try and save the day into a character who against all odds courageously puts himself in dangerous situations to try and save the day?

I think you're making up a character and personality to have be changed, because none of what I described is very different (if different at all) from Link. Any game that has Link as a non-POV character is going to have a different personality from Link typically.

The interaction between the two would basically require Link to speak. Do you see him running up to characters and starting conversation with them? No they basically just speak to him while he stands there. Well since you're not him anymore is he just going to grunt and make noises whenever he wants your attention? He would have to be overhauled to work from a gameplay point of view.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Link have had different colored tunics since the first game on NES, the end.

How often are they included in advertisement? Or in promotional material?

Seriously, "Link gets a new tunic halfway through the game" and "Link's main tunic is now blue" is a big damn difference, and the fact that the female Link controversy came from the fact that his tunic was blue proves this.

The interaction between the two would basically require Link to speak. Do you see him running up to characters and starting conversation with them? No they basically just speak to him while he stands there. Well since you're not him anymore is he just going to grunt and make noises whenever he wants your attention? He would have to be overhauled to work from a gameplay point of view.

This Link isn't meant to represent the player anymore, so why would it matter? Does TWW Link have OoT Link's personality?

 

[Aequitas]

People aren't talking about the game, they are talking about something unrelated.

Nothing in this thread is discussing anything that was shown.

This thread is about the fact that there will be no playable female link in Zelda U/NX. It seems as though the discussion is revolving around that.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Only now, the kettle is tipping. Aonuma won't be able to escape the rising and visible debate with lame excuses anymore going forward.

Watch him.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

This is a fairer argument. If Anouma tried, I'm sure he could sculpt a world around Zelda as the protagonist. But then we wouldn't really be playing the Legend of Zelda we know, and have known, for years. I'm personally not averse to this change, but Anouma's probably received strong direction to continue with the usual Link-protagonist formula, from fans and peers.

I'd love to see them do it, I would - but seeing as the first footage of this game clearly showed Link, and not Zelda, people were silly to get their hopes up and then complain when they were dashed.

I guess to elaborate, my annoyance isn't that Zelda isn't playable in this game. I didn't expect that. I fully expected that what I saw was what I was going to get: a Link centered game.

What I was hoping for was that in a game or two, maybe we could see a bold new direction for the franchise with Zelda's character. But it seems like Aonuma has dismissed that out of hand, which is just ridiculous to me.

 

[tariniel]

I don't give a damn about the gender of the character anyway when the characters a blank slate that people just project onto. I'd prefer it if more interesting NEW female characters were made rather than just slapping a female skin on old characters instead.

I think it would be pretty awesome if they put in a new original character, or maybe Linkle, and the game had different challenges depending on your character. For example Linkle is portrayed with twin crossbows instead of a longbow, which might lead to her solving puzzles slightly differently or allow her to resolve battles in a different way. A slightly different set of weapons/tools for each character would add a lot of depth and replayability, so I think this is definitely one of the good ways to do it.

 

[nubbe]

it's happening agaaaaaaain

we live in an age where men and women should have equal opportunity of representation
and there is no reason to not have female representation in a game like zelda

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Nintendo should have nipped this in the bud a long time ago. And it would've been better for them to just directly say that they view Link (all the "Links") as a male, end of story. The roundabout reasoning they gave today is just stirring up even more controversy.



Yeah I agree.

I've felt for many years that Princess Zelda had enough depth to her that Nintendo should consider making her the playable and featured MC in a game one day.

They already said Link was Male back in 2014 after the first trailer. Rumors and people imaginations have made them ignore it for some reason.

 

[Jay RaR]

I wouldn't mind the decision if their reason wasn't so idiotic and with half-baked logic.

 

[Not]

We could probably successfully encourage them to make a game starring Zelda, but everyone would rather burn them at the stake because this game doesn't star female Link.

How's that thread comprehension class going?

 

[MannyToons]

Just gonna say this; the reasoning against a female Link option upsets me more than the lack of one.

 

[Plywood]

"If you do this first thing, you'd have to do this second thing" isn't a valid reason to not to the first thing though

Did I say it wasn't?

The first just wouldn't really address the criticism fully in the way the second would if Link's role and name is "avatar" though.

Which really makes me wonder the extent the conversation may have gone. Perhaps they wouldn't want to create a fully customizable Link, because of how long they've viewed Link in a certain light and perhaps just adding a gender option wouldn't be enough for them or enough for the people that want this. We don't know, but what we do know is they see Link as male and that if they were to make a female led Legend of Zelda game they'd prefer for Zelda to lead it.

 

[Tasha2k2]

I wouldn't mind the decision if their reason wasn't so idiotic and with half-baked logic.

Yeah. If they wanted to explain it how their specific version of reincarnation for all the Links and Zeldas means that Link can't be a girl and Zelda can't be a boy then I'd love to see it. The only problem is they don't say anything because can't think of any good reason why.

 

[Übermatik]

It's in the same 'timeline', not the same Link.

So how has Hyrule been flooded for at least a hundred (probably more) years in Wind Waker but somehow Link is still the same Link that defeated Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time and is like 15 years old in Wind Waker or whatever?

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Same timeline, not the same Link. In fact didn't they confirm the Spirit of the Hero was OoT/MM Link? If so, officially not the same Link.

OK so there's clearly some miscommunication here. After all, I said different timelines to begin with anyway.

No, he's not the same person. He hasn't gone on one crazy, winding adventure with everything changing around him every year or something.

But he's the same incarnation of the Hero. As if Link woke up in each timeline with no past memory of the world's he's seen before. I don't want to get into Zelda semantics here, but this is why we've seen the same (or similar) character design in each game.

Again, I'm not against a female protagonist at all, but I'm trying to help people understand why we see Link as he is time and time again, and why we're seeing him again now. It's because *gasp*, he's Link.

 

[RDreamer]

Link is Link to Nintendo. He is an existing character with a set personality and set role within the franchise.

Except that 'set personality' is just to be an avatar for the player:

“I don’t want people to get hung up on the way Link looks because ultimately Link represents the player in the game. I don’t want to define him so much that it becomes limiting to the players. I want players to focus on other parts of the trailer and not specifically on the character because the character Link represents, again, the player.”

So, looks can change a bunch, clothing can change, what hand link uses can change, backstory for Link can change, and on top of that people shouldn't really care about his looks because he's supposed to be YOU! ... unless you're a girl. Can't change that. He has a set personality and role as a male and you'll just have to deal with it.

 

[Metroidvania]

If Link's role is avatar then adding a female option would not be enough. It would need character customization options(hair, skin, maybe some faces options, mainly) and at that point they are removing the prior identity of Link(the Link they see and have crafted over 30 years) and replacing it with a much more ambiguous one.

"If you do this first thing, you'd have to do this second thing" isn't a valid reason to not to the first thing though

This.

The avatar concept doesn't necessarily mean 'Link needs to look EXACTLY like me', but I'd imagine there'd be some middle ground changing gender (or even potentially race, but that's probably a debate for another day) to keep enough characteristics of 'Link' to be recognizable.

 

[legacyzero]

Would be perfectly fine with this.

Literally what I thought too. Why change the existing character when you can empower another existing character?

Seems to me like all the rage surrounding this are from folks who dont desire a middle ground, and who must have forgotten about Linkle.

 

[thefragrance]

I'm just sad that Zelda as the protagonist may have been close to being a real thing. "What would happen to Link?" Jesus, how about just not having him in the game? He could have taken the role of a newborn child or an abstract entity. The focus would have been a heroic princess Zelda.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

I guess you're trying to imply that Nintendo is infallible...

Nope.
You're really not understanding the point of my post.
The way the quote is presented (...and I concede to the idea that it may have been poorly worded or translated), Mr. Aonuma can't seem to conceptualize the idea that separate playable characters can be doing separate things while still working towards the same goal.
It's hard for me to understand how a seasoned game developer backed by a quality team would say "B-b-but if____is playable, what would___do??" when a lesser caliber studio was able to answer the question in a bad game from 1999.
Hell if you're so hung up on quality, GTAV is a critically acclaimed sandbox action-adventure game where three distinct characters play through separate scenarios while ultimately working towards the same narrative goal; while some characters are active other characters are doing their own mundane thing within the world (like watching TV).
Why Mr. Aonuma can't seem to visualize something like that with Zelda and Link is a bit ridiculous.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

If Zelda was playable, I do not think they would get very much flak.

Making Zelda playable means changing the story to be much more fluid than the standard "boy saves girl" trope. You can't exactly squeeze her in the same storytelling format that Link has had since the NES.

Also, making Zelda playable solves one problem, but doesn't exactly explain why Link is one gender if he's supposed to the link between the player and the game. Especially when many games allow the player to customize the player character to allow for more immersion.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Personally, I stand by the idea that Link should be a female Gerudo in the next game.

Making Zelda playable means changing the story to be much more fluid than the standard "boy saves girl" trope. You can't exactly squeeze her in the same storytelling format that Link has had since the NES.

Also, making Zelda playable solves one problem, but doesn't exactly explain why Link is one gender if he's supposed to the link between the player and the game. Especially when many games allow the player to customize the player character to allow for more immersion.

Firstly - "oh no, wouldn't it be awful if Zelda got a better story?" :v

Secondly - It wouldn't solve the problem, but people would both be less bothered now that they have ANY playable character and because it's not the problem that's preventing female Link.

 

[Pau]

That's exactly why I don't want a female Link. Male Link would always be the default and the female some alternate non-canon version. How is that great for representation and inclusivity? Zelda is her own character, not just some alternate option. And she deserves to be in the spotlight in her own series for a change. Zelda games should have fixed protagonists IMO.

I'm with either one honestly. I don't mind male Link being the default in merchandising because of tradition, and I would personally enjoy having the option.

I always thought Nintendo would think having Zelda as a protagonist would be too different and require too much of a work around (not that it has too) and that seems to actually have been the case. :/

And I'll add that I'm not a fan of Linkle.

 

[NHarmonic.]

Aonuma buddy, listen to me....do you and your team not possess that magical thing storytellers like to refer to as an imagination? A means to imagine a story that could easily differentiate itself from the kind of story you've told us about a hundred times before? I mean, for example, if you seriously wanted to make Zelda the main character for the series for a change....

-Link could have been....a childhood friend, who would travel with Zelda as a travelling companion in her journey across Hyrule (whether as a dual-protagonist or an unplayable sidekick).
-Link could have been....a celebrated prince of Hyrule who would get kidnapped or imprisoned by Ganon (with Zelda having to rescue him, in a reversal of the traditional LoZ dynamic)
Link could have beena beloved royal protector who Princess Zelda has become particularly fond of, only to mysteriously disappear one night when dark forces steal into Hyrule Castle, thus speaking off Princess Zelda's adventure out into Hyrule as she is determined to learn the truth about his disappearance.
-Link could have been....an older character from what we're normally used to, a seasoned adventurer, who would serve as a metaphor figure for a younger Zelda.
-Link could have been...Zelda's father, a retired adventurer who hung up the green tunic long ago, but who quietly encourages his daughter's fierce rebellious streak as she goes out into the world to have her own adventures.

In my eyes, Aonuma's words here don't so much speak to his staggeringly lack of creativity and imagination when it came to the task developing a new kind of story for this game, but his inability to envision a narrative that would exist out of the traditional rescuing hero/damsel in distress dynamic that has become so ingrained in the series as a whole, which only serves to speak as a fundamental failure on his part as a storyteller.

Amazing post.

Please join Nintendo and save their damned narrative problems once and for all.

 

[braves01]

I'm okay with this. Maybe they're working on a game for Linkle.

 

[Mory Dunz]

we live in an age where men and women should have equal opportunity of representation
and there is no reason to not have female representation in a game like zelda

you're killing me. You're all killing me. I'm dead. Gwah.


Like even after the big reveal this is one of the biggest threads. See everyone again in 4 years I suppose.

 

[Taruranto]

I guess you must secretly be God

Yes.

then if you know it doesn't work like how I explained it then.

There is no "explanation" for reincarnation, because it's a fictional concent and the writers can do whatever they want to it.

Just like,if they wanted it, they could have Mario eat a mushroom that turns him into FemMario to offer a female option. But they don't, and no one expects them to do it.

 

[SpotAnime]

Nintendo should have just replied:

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Jobbs]

I'm with either one honestly. I don't mind male Link being the default in merchandising because of tradition, and I would personally enjoy having the option.

I always thought Nintendo would think having Zelda as a protagonist would be too different and require too much of a work around (not that it has too) and that seems to actually have been the case. :/

And I'll add that I'm not a fan of Linkle.

pau

agghh

 

[Crimson_Echidna]

The circular logic was strong there.

 

[Movalpolos]

I think the main problem with this is Aonuma's is trying to break series' conventions, yet sticking to the same basic outline. Zelda, Link, and Ganon. Apparently these can't be touched or messed about with to any degree, which says a lot seeing as they're the meat of the story, lore, and atomosphere. Even if they give it a WRPG skin, it's still the same old formula they've been using, which is sad in a way. Just giving Link a gender option would have shaken this up massively, yet dealt with very minimum backlash.

Maybe next game, eh?

Exactly, I see nothing negative about it. It would add more breadth, which this series is in dire need of.

 

[Slyfer]

lol wut. It's Nintendo's prerogative to make Link whatever gender they want...

Except Nintendo didn't do a gender swap and I was only commenting on supporting their decision.

...but the hyperbole here is rich...

I'm allowed to be passionate for a franchise I've enjoyed for a long time.

I don't think it ruins Link to make Link a girl one time.

Well that's your opinion and I obviously don't feel the same way. So you wouldn't mind having a gender swap option for Kratos, Master Chief, Samus, Bayonetta, Snake, etc. ?

Nothing gets taken away from canonical boy link if you add an option where link can be a girl.

Considering Link has been a male character since the late 80's I don't agree with you.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

booooooooo

 

[DangerMouse]

People have brought up Avatar before, which has a great reincarnation lore. The only problematic difference, and it's a major one, is that the internal logic of that lore was laid out by like episode 3. Zelda has gone 30 years without doing that.

Yup, Avatar did a great job with it.

True, they never set it up from the beginning like Avatar did, but being that the series is pretty old, there's nothing stopping them from taking advantage of this perfect loophole that they maybe even accidentally created for themselves over time, especially if they are not willing to do a Ghibli-like adventurous Zelda lead in a big-budget-Zelda-level game.

 

[Tasha2k2]

But he's the same incarnation of the Hero. As if Link woke up in each timeline with no past memory of the world's he's seen before. I don't want to get into Zelda semantics here, but this is why we've seen the same (or similar) character design in each game.

Again, I'm not against a female protagonist at all, but I'm trying to help people understand why we see Link as he is time and time again, and why we're seeing him again now. It's because *gasp*, he's Link.

There are TONS of artists who have drawn female link while still keeping a lot of the same design elements that make Link Link.

Why can't "The Hero" be a girl? Is there some sort of divine rule in Zelda games that means that the holder of the Triforce of Courage can't be a girl?

If Link wakes up in each timeline with NO memory of any of the other adventures then why would Link be surprised if they looked down and saw they didn't have a penis?

 

[Plywood]

This.

The avatar concept doesn't necessarily mean 'Link needs to look EXACTLY like me', but I'd imagine there'd be some middle ground changing gender (or even potentially race, but that's probably a debate for another day) to keep enough characteristics of 'Link' to be recognizable.

Right, but the point is at that rate it wouldn't be Link to them and if they're going to such lengths to create a female Link they would instead rather make a Zelda game.

 

[Thor Molecules]

It would be better if developers would just straight up tell us that they don't want to make female characters instead of coming up with stupids reasons that do nothing but insult our intelligence.

Honestly would rather they do this. Enough of the BS reasons. Just give it to us straight.

"We didn't make a female link option because link is a male. We like him as a male. He will always be a male. If you want to play as a female wait until our next Metroid game coming in 2077. Or if you can't wait that long just imagine that he's a female. We made him androgynous to make it easier for you to do that."

 

[kenji]

Yes.




There is no "explanation" for reincarnation, because it's a fictional concent and the writers can do whatever they want to it.

Just like,if they wanted it, they could have Mario eat a mushroom that turns him into FemMario to offer a female option. But they don't, and no one expects them to do it.

This.

You all argue about a female Link why don't you ask for a female Mario

 

[Deadpool_X]

I'm shocked Modbot hasn't locked this topic. This is about as big a knee-jerk reactionary article as I've seen on here this e3.

 

[wheeplash]

But who was Horizon: Zero Dawn?

 

[Twiforce]

Considering Link has been a male character since the late 80's I don't agree with you.

But as long as you can still choose to be boy Link, what gets taken from you?

 

[TrueBlue]

Has Emily responded to this?