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GameSpot: No Playable Female Character in new Zelda [UP: Additional Comments in OP]

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Didn't the Hyrule Historia establish the ownership of a Triforce piece can be transferred to another person? I believe the original owner doesn't even have to die for that to work. (Ganondorf took Zelda's piece in the Downfall timeline and she was still alive afterwards). So couldn't they think of a scenario where due to certain circumstances Zelda also inherites Courage? I don't think such a scenario would be necessary to make Zelda the hero, though.

Zelda's usually the character that knows what's going on. I'd imagine her role relative to Link's would be trying to keep Ganon from getting out of his confinement. She's proactive, Link's reactive.

They're not necessarily switching roles depending on how it's framed.

Oh. Just had a thought. What if Zelda's attempting to mend the failure timeline in a new game? There are loads of possibilities there.
 
To play Devil's Advocate, and defend the possibility that the comment made by Aonuma was only a partial response filtered through an English translation:

"What is Link going to do" - What he could be referring to here is that Link represents courage, Zelda is Wisdom, and Ganon is power. This is the balance of the Triforce. So when he says "if Zelda does the fighting, what will Link do?", what he is saying "if we have Wisdom fighting, what will Courage do?". Which does make sense and is less sexist sounding than the initial response, so this could be what he is referring to.

It's not like these are character traits that push you into a certain direction really.
 

Hargenx

Member
Thx BigN...

People should just...

giphy.gif


Changing gender is not a good way to make a good female protagonist, make ORIGINAL female protagonist, without using a already established male one, is sad to see people giving crap on Nintendo for not changing the gender of a protagonist who always has been male...
 
Changing gender is not a good way to make a good female protagonist, make ORIGINAL female protagonist, without using a already established male one, is sad to see people giving crap on Nintendo for not changing the gender of a protagonist who always has been male...

Aonuma shot down he possibility of Zelda being playable in a mainline Zelda game though — what makes you think they'd be willing to make a completely new character if they won't use another established one?
 

SDBurton

World's #1 Cosmonaut Enthusiast
Changing gender is not a good way to make a good female protagonist, make ORIGINAL female protagonist, without using a already established male one, is sad to see people giving crap on Nintendo for not changing the gender of a protagonist who always has been male...

But then... what would Link do?

You see the issue here?
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Thx BigN...

People should just...

giphy.gif


Changing gender is not a good way to make a good female protagonist, make ORIGINAL female protagonist, without using a already established male one, is sad to see people giving crap on Nintendo for not changing the gender of a protagonist who always has been male...
But the protagonist hasn't always been male. Each of the past protagonists have been male. But why do all of them in the future have to be male? Do the gods of destiny who choose the heroes just hate girls? Many of the games reference Destiny choosing the heroes.
 

balgajo

Member
But the protagonist hasn't always been male. Each of the past protagonists have been male. But why do all of them in the future have to be male? Do the gods of destiny who choose the heroes just hate girls? Many of the games reference Destiny choosing the heroes.

In the same universe where chaos only choose women to be gods why not only boys to be heroes? It's not that they choose random boys...Their choice is always Link.
:)
 
I want to be very clear that I do not think Nintendo has done anything wrong by failing to make BotW's Link female(or include a female Link option). It's their franchise. They never promised a female Link or undertook any obligation that would make the lack of a female Link conspicuous or hurtful. Their stated reasons for not including a female Link are unpersuasive (to say the least), but that's a separate issue.

Nonetheless, I am disappointed I can't play BotW (or any other Zelda game) as a female Link. My disappointment is not because of any pre-E3 rumors, which I never believed. I just think it would be a fun change that might mean something to a lot of young Zelda players (or parents of young Zelda players), and for BotW in particular it would be a cool fit with the Ghibli-esque direction of the game. The option to play as Zelda or some other female character does not have the same appeal to me because I want to play Zelda games as Link. And as I've said many times, going back years before the first BotW teaser sparked speculation about a female Link, I don't see anything in Zelda's lore or Link's iconic traits that would foreclose the possibility of a female Link. I don't think of the character as essentially male. Many of you feel differently. Fair enough.
 
But the protagonist hasn't always been male. Each of the past protagonists have been male. But why do all of them in the future have to be male? Do the gods of destiny who choose the heroes just hate girls? Many of the games reference Destiny choosing the heroes.
Maybe the gods don't want to put a man's soul in a girl. Maybe who gives a fuck. The devs don't want to do it, so they won't. Why this series is the focal point ("Link's not really a character" nonsense) of so much ire is baffling.

And once again, I would be fine with having the option. The devs in this case are not, and for me that's reason enough for it not to happen. No justification needed - it's not their vision of the character.
 
57 pages for this... looks like this is the only way to shit on the new Zelda. What next, Female Ganon? Let it go for God sake.
Right, because that's the real reason people are making this thread big. Just out to get your favourite game. It couldn't be that there's a discussion happening.
 

Bakkus

Member
No, the king was overprotective because they decided that it had to be that way. Seriously, are you the one who wrote the "Triforce balance" excuse? If so, you may have topped yourself there.

The situation you describe is arbitrarily the way it is, circular reasoning. People aren't asking for a plot justification, people are asking why they decided to write Zelda the way she did and why Tetra becoming Zelda can also be called "Tetra becoming useless." Pointing out the contrived excuse that could be overcame by, for instance, having her die and her spirit inhabit a suit of armor.

And by the way, "Spirit Tracks was fine, so all other Zeldas are fine" is actually the worst argument ever.

They decided it had to be that way because it made sense story wise, I have never said anything about triforce balance. And you did not answer my question.

I never said the last part about Sprit Tracks, I just pointed out that Nintendo doesn't have much problems with making Zelda useful, that was the best example. She's also useful in the other 3D games. You're making some big leap of logic with what i'm saying.
 
They decided it had to be that way because it made sense story wise, I have never said anything about triforce balance. And you did not answer my question.

I never said the last part about Sprit Tracks, I just pointed out that Nintendo doesn't have much problems with making Zelda useful, that was the best example. She's also useful in the other 3D games. You're making some big leap of logic with what i'm saying.

I've made a good share of comments in this thread. Instead of replying to things I've never said, reply to what I have said.

I never claimed "Nintendo can't put Zelda in an active role." I just said it was hard for them, apparently. I was making a good-faith assumption that it was just difficult for them creatively, rather than the idea that they think of Zelda as representing a helpless damsel.

And no, it did not "make sense story-wise." They invented a reason for Zelda to stop being important besides as a trophy for Link to claim. If they really, truly were not able to find something for Zelda to do besides hide and cower until she gets captured anyway, they might not be the right people to work in a creative field.
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
In the same universe where chaos only choose women to be gods why not only boys to be heroes? It's not that they choose random boys...Their choice is always Link.
:)
But different Links each time. So why do these Links have to be boys? That is the question.

Maybe the gods don't want to put a man's soul in a girl. Maybe who gives a fuck. The devs don't want to do it, so they won't. Why this series is the focal point ("Link's not really a character" nonsense) of so much ire is baffling.

And once again, I would be fine with having the option. The devs in this case are not, and for me that's reason enough for it not to happen. No justification needed - it's not their vision of the character.
I give a fuck, because as you said, the devs don't want to do it, so they won't. But that doesn't explain why they made a world where gods deem only boys can be the hero chosen by destiny. They decided in their world, girls can't be the hero. They can be at best a sidekick to the hero, or at worst, someone to be saved, but never THE hero. I totally agree that it's their choice to make, but their decision speaks for them. That choice is on them.

And the reason it's the focal point is that because of all Nintendo's properties, Zelda has new main characters in most of the games. There is no set one person. So it is open to the possibility that some can be born girls, but again, they choose not to do it. They decide no girls allowed.
 
This is incorrect, they always intended the games to be connected by time even if they hadn't fleshed out all the details. Zelda 2 was a direct sequel of 1. Ocarina of time referenced Link to the past and even made the Sages names in Ocarina of time the same as the towns in Zelda 2 to show the towns were named after the Sages. It's all one world, not just a simple retelling each time. Twilight Princess Link was trained by OOT Link. Two individual people. Not a retelling. Not the same character. So it wouldn't be simply "putting a bow on Link" because the Links are different characters. You are the one insulting the series by diminishing Link to a mere picture of an elf boy.

I recall old interviews in Nintendo Power. There is a Zelda Mythos that each game pulled from, not in terms of history but in terms of themes. No, outside of obviously direct sequels and companion games, there was never any effort to place these titles in a singular historical context. Even now it's not exactly a priority, why do you think the canon time line splits willy nilly and even contradicts itself on origins?

And yes, Link is the same character each time, just not in terms of being physically the same person, the same individual. If it wasn't important for him to be the same iconic character each time, then why always the same design cues? Why wouldn't he look completely different each time? This is what is meant by being iconic..it means recognizable consistency, in this case a visual one. Link is immediately identifiable, as are Zelda and Ganon. Not in the generic Ubisoft usage but actually iconic. That is not a diminishment. What are you even talking about?
 

balgajo

Member
But different Links each time. So why do these Links have to be boys? That is the question.

It's a universe where gods have gender(Din, Nayru, Farore, Hylia are female). Hylians and some other races also have genders. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the hero's spirit can have a gender too. They could use some bullshit like this to explain why he always has the same appeareance...
But in the end it's only this way because Link is a Nintendo mascot outside Zelda games and that's the character they want to be the protagonist of The Legend of Zelda series. That's why they say if they will make a game where you play with Zelda they'd give it a new name.
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
I recall old interviews in Nintendo Power. There is a Zelda Mythos that each game pulled from, not in terms of history but in terms of themes. No, outside of obviously direct sequels and companion games, there was never any effort to place these titles in a singular historical context. Even now it's not exactly a priority, why do you think the canon time line splits willy nilly and even contradicts itself on origins?

And yes, Link is the same character each time, just not in terms of being physically the same person, the same individual. If it wasn't important for him to be the same iconic character each time, then why always the same design cues? Why wouldn't he look completely different each time? This is what is meant by being iconic..it means recognizable consistency, in this case a visual one. Link is immediately identifiable, as are Zelda and Ganon. Not in the generic Ubisoft usage but actually iconic. That is not a diminishment. What are you even talking about?

I just gave examples of how they were in the same world. I gave examples of two links talking to one another. Other games reference past games, not just the direct sequels. There are also interviews of them placing the games in the same world.

They want the Links to be reminiscent of the past ones so they shoehorn reasons for them to wear that outfit. Wind Waker Link got his outfit because all the boys got that outfit because an older Link had it. And all the Castle Guards wore that outfit in Spirit Tracks. But there's no reason that a girl can't wear the same outfit. And obviously they made a world where that hair style is common, look at Tri-force heroes. That was one of the criteria. There's always a reason for Link to look that that way. So they'd just make a Link look the same as a girl. It takes so little, in that first trailer, people thought they did it. And since she'd still fit the image you want, what's the problem?

I said it was diminishing because you think so little of Nintendo that you consider OOT Link--whose mom sacrificed herself to get Link away from the war, and who grew up a bit of an outcast from the Kokiri because he didn't have a fairy-- to be the same person as Wind Waker Link who grew up with his family on outset island.

And really Zelda? The Zeldas' designs has been drastically different throughout the games. And Ganon is one dude.

It's a universe where gods have gender(Din, Nayru, Farore, Hylia are female). Hylians and some other races also have genders. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the hero's spirit can have a gender too. They could use some bullshit like this to explain why he always has the same appeareance...
But in the end it's only this way because Link is a Nintendo mascot outside Zelda games and that's the character they want to be the protagonist of The Legend of Zelda series. That's why they say if they will make a game where you play with Zelda they'd give it a new name.
And they'd have created a universe where the hero can only be a boy. They'd have actively made it so girls can't be the hero. That was kinda my point.
 

Bakkus

Member
I've made a good share of comments in this thread. Instead of replying to things I've never said, reply to what I have said.

I never claimed "Nintendo can't put Zelda in an active role." I just said it was hard for them, apparently. I was making a good-faith assumption that it was just difficult for them creatively, rather than the idea that they think of Zelda as representing a helpless damsel.

And no, it did not "make sense story-wise." They invented a reason for Zelda to stop being important besides as a trophy for Link to claim. If they really, truly were not able to find something for Zelda to do besides hide and cower until she gets captured anyway, they might not be the right people to work in a creative field.

Funny because you threw out accusations of me bringing up the balance of the triforce when I have never talked about that.

Don't see much reason to continue this, it's clear we just disagree on Nintendo's representation of Zelda, especially under the games Aonuma has directed.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
And they'd have created a universe where the hero can only be a boy. They'd have actively made it so girls can't be the hero. That was kinda my point.

They've laid the groundwork for that in Skyward Sword. Not to mention the spirit of the hero in Twilight Princess.

Acting like they've done nothing to present it in that fashion is ignoring the games.
 

Mega

Banned
If Nintendo made it explicitly clear with some well-written lore that the hero is a male spirit that reappears every generation as a new male Hylian, with no room for argument or uncertainty... would any of you actually concede and stop asking why Link can't be a girl?
 
If Nintendo made it explicitly clear with some well-written lore that the hero is a male spirit that reappears every generation as a new male Hylian, with no room for argument or uncertainty... would any of you actually concede and stop asking why Link can't be a girl?

Thats what many of us have been saying from the start.
Its completely fine that Link can only be male,
The problem is his reasoning against Zelda, keeping Link a minimalist character(besides SS) + the androgynous reasoning.
 

Platy

Member
In your own example, one of those unnamed heroes is depicted as a stained glass looking exactly like Link.

It is not RANDOM boys because they all fit the kind of "serial killer victim" profile, but it all points to not being a "Link"
 

Tingle

Member
It is not RANDOM boys because they all fit the kind of "serial killer victim" profile, but it all points to not being a "Link"

What supports any of them not being a Link? The only one which has any real depiction is the one who looks exactly like Link, minus the hat, which is explained in that game by Ezlo.
 

SkyOdin

Member
I made a big post in the thread about Aonuma's recent comments, but I think I will repost it here, because it more has to do with the general discussion on the topic:

Link has always been a character who walked a tightrope between being a character in his own right and being a player avatar. In that regard he is very much like the protagonists of many of the early Dragon Quest main characters or even the Avatar from the Ultima series of games. These are games from before detailed character creation took off in videogames, but they still embraced the idea that the main controllable character is supposed to be a link between the player and the game world.

You can see that desire to maintain Link as a player self-insert character in a lot of key game decisions:
1) In every Zelda game up until now, you can name Link whatever you want. In the multiplayer games in particular, there is no difference made between Link's name and your player name. "Link" is not even used as a default; if don't read the manuals, you would never know that it was supposed to be his name.
2) Link never speaks. To have him speak would be putting words in the mouth of the player, in essence. The only time Link ever says anything, it is only by giving the player a choice of different dialogue options. Some of the DS Zelda games go even further by asking the player to use the microphone in order to speak for Link in a literal manner.
3) Link has often been depicted as an everyman character: a normal person like anyone else who steps up to become a hero. This isn't an uncommon role for protagonists that the player is supposed to relate with.

However, over the years, Link has become established more and more as a particular character. The name Link has become much more strongly associated with the character thanks to appearances in other games, such as the Super Smash Bros. series. More significantly, starting in Ocarina of Time and even more-so in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, Link has been given ever more complex relationships, emotional reactions, and story details surrounding him. Furthermore, the Zelda series has increasingly embraced the concept of the timeline, and it has thus created a more specific story role for Link outside of being an everyman character. Link is now a very recognizable character in how own right, with a long list of recognizable character traits.

Now, if Link is supposed to be a player avatar, then it only makes sense for the player to be able to customize the character. That is after all the current standard. However, if Link is a character in his own right, then it makes sense to leave him be. The fact that he exists in an awkward middle-ground is why there is so much debate and high emotions over this topic.

Now, if they had introduced a gender option sometime around when A Link to the Past was released, or shortly after it, I don't think there would have been as big of a debate over this topic. It really was starting in Ocarina of Time that Link started to be a more developed character. Now that it has been almost 20 years since then, forgetting about how Link has been so strongly established as an iconic character is difficult. Switching from a well-established character to a customizable player avatar is a big change. However, Link remains a player avatar figure, and I fully understand and empathize with people wanting their player avatar character to better resemble them.

Right now, I think the best option is to leave Link as he is, and include the option to play as a different character such as Zelda or a more purpose-built female hero. I think that the awkward balance between established character and player avatar has become what people expect from a Zelda protagonist, but that doesn't mean that we can't have options.

As an aside, I don't think lore arguments, no matter whether they are for or against Link being able to be a girl, are worth anything. Lore is constructed in service to other goals, and the main reasons people are for or against Link being female are meta reasons. So arguing about whether or not it makes sense for Link to be a girl on the basis of the timeline or reincarnations or stuff is fruitless.
 

Calm Mind

Member
I don't understand why this is such a big deal. No one is making this amount of fuss that FFXV features only playable males.
 

patapuf

Member
I don't understand why this is such a big deal. No one is making this amount of fuss that FFXV features only playable males.

There's been plenty of fuss about that.

There's been more fuss about Zelda... but amibgous initial comments helped fuel the fire and at least at the moment, more people care about zelda than FFXV.
 
Funny because you threw out accusations of me bringing up the balance of the triforce when I have never talked about that.

Don't see much reason to continue this, it's clear we just disagree on Nintendo's representation of Zelda, especially under the games Aonuma has directed.

I was making fun of the fact that you were using a very poor argument, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Ultimately, it's saddening that one of the most strongly touted Zeldas are:

1. OoT Zelda, who goes into hiding, poses as a man, and then is kidnapped seconds after becoming Zelda again (and apparently becoming useless).
2. TWW Zelda, who goes from being awesome to being useless to being great support for a single fight, to being a damsel for an entire game afterward despite going back to being a pirate.

It's like they can't help it, Zelda needs to be in distress or the balance falls apart. It's just so frustrating to know that a character that you like a fair amount is stuck in a box and only briefly ever gets to do anything, like be Link's sidekick.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
I was making fun of the fact that you were using a very poor argument, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Ultimately, it's saddening that one of the most strongly touted Zeldas are:

1. OoT Zelda, who goes into hiding, poses as a man, and then is kidnapped seconds after becoming Zelda again (and apparently becoming useless).
2. TWW Zelda, who goes from being awesome to being useless to being great support for a single fight, to being a damsel for an entire game afterward despite going back to being a pirate.

It's like they can't help it, Zelda needs to be in distress or the balance falls apart. It's just so frustrating to know that a character that you like a fair amount is stuck in a box and only briefly ever gets to do anything, like be Link's sidekick.
There's also Midna.
 
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