IIRC, nobody was under any illusions that Tetra was a girl
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GameSpot: No Playable Female Character in new Zelda [UP: Additional Comments in OP]
- Thread starter maxcriden
- Start date
IIRC, nobody was under any illusions that Tetra was a girl
I can kinda understand that it's so important for many to have a female Link. Not even that the franchise is so popular and beloved by many. It's one of the oldest, high quality ones, and should be open to everyone by having a more inclusive protagonist.
And not to forget there is no other video game franchise which's setting is so close on the classic picture of a young male courage knight-hero serving the realm and his wise lady by going on a dangerous quest to slay a powerful beast. One of the oldest storytelling concepts and old tropes. One which is just oldfashioned and people just want to take a seat back and modernized.
And reading Aonumas answer make me think that he actually said that he just doesn't have the need to change that one. That he doesn't want to mess with those relation between Link-Zelda-Ganon. Because he prefers to be oldfashioned and traditional.
I personally have nothing against a female Link. But personally don't really care if they do it or not to be honest. But I understand the demand and it's just sad that Aonuma won't satisfy this need, which I think is justified. On the other hand I can understand his point of view as well. Even though if I would be in his position I would decide otherwise.
And not to forget there is no other video game franchise which's setting is so close on the classic picture of a young male courage knight-hero serving the realm and his wise lady by going on a dangerous quest to slay a powerful beast. One of the oldest storytelling concepts and old tropes. One which is just oldfashioned and people just want to take a seat back and modernized.
And reading Aonumas answer make me think that he actually said that he just doesn't have the need to change that one. That he doesn't want to mess with those relation between Link-Zelda-Ganon. Because he prefers to be oldfashioned and traditional.
I personally have nothing against a female Link. But personally don't really care if they do it or not to be honest. But I understand the demand and it's just sad that Aonuma won't satisfy this need, which I think is justified. On the other hand I can understand his point of view as well. Even though if I would be in his position I would decide otherwise.
This actually sounds like a pretty cool mechanic for a video game It's like Inside Out. Why is this considered sexist? Is having emotions derogatory towards women now?
WrenchNinja
Member
No but having the first game starring Peach being about emotions is.
Why?
AltissimaRatio
Banned
I hope they dont bow to the masses an keep Link male and male only. Videogame Characters are artist expressions. And as such they should be immune to Critics from what ever Fraction.
Only exception would be a Character clearly meant to troll or insult a real living Person.
So Link is still a male? And? Do we discuss also a male Version of Lara Croft?
...
So based on the fascist Opinion oppression in that "Guardian: 'E3 diversity report" Thread, this is a banworthy Opinion also. So maybe i should not klick Submit.. nahh ill do it
Only exception would be a Character clearly meant to troll or insult a real living Person.
So Link is still a male? And? Do we discuss also a male Version of Lara Croft?
...
So based on the fascist Opinion oppression in that "Guardian: 'E3 diversity report" Thread, this is a banworthy Opinion also. So maybe i should not klick Submit.. nahh ill do it
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Stereotypes about women being more emotional.
I like the game but I can see why it draws ire.
WrenchNinja
Member
Plus the game is easy as fuck so you can read into that if you want to
It's sexist if you think Peach is supposed to be a representation of all women.
Kratos is a raging asshole who is a man, but not a representation of men. It's okay to have female characters who are over-emotional, and it's okay to have male characters who are violent brutes who think with their dicks.
Chip N Chance
Member
Dude. Its flat out a crazy concept for one of gamings most popular characters having her first (and i believe only) staring game be about having mood swings in order to traverse through the environment. Mario wall jumps, rides animals and punches. Peach has four moves called Joy, Gloom, Rage and Calm. Its not subtle. This isnt a new discussion, reviewers at the time kind of bashed the game for it.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
An earnest fellow, eager to help. Humble origins, but won't shy away from conflict to help those he holds dear.
WrenchNinja
Member
God or War isn't the only game with a dude protagonist. The few games that do star a lady don't need to double down on shitty stereotypes.
The ones that do, it's pretty much always a white female.
That's the problem with this argument about sexism. It's a circle jerk that never ends. Because every single thing that makes a character unique, to someone else, that also makes them sexist. It's a pointless argument based on personal opinion that's just going to appear on these forums every... single... day... and it won't stop until we all chop off our sex organs and turn into this.
AlphaDragoon
Member
Brave young person who can be a bit goofy and lazy at times, but always willing to help, willing to fight to protect others, and always steps up when the situation calls for it. Fiercely protective of family. Prefers peace to fighting, but will fight if necessary.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
No, you're right about as far as I know
Dude, it's a pretty cool concept for a game starring one of gaming most popular characters. You can manipulate her emotions to create tornadoes, fly through the air, heal yourself, and explode into a ball of fire, becoming invincible and burning enemies around you. Meanwhile, all Mario does is wall jump, ride animals, and punches.
We described the exact same game.It's pretty easy to convince others on your opinion when you use specific words.
Weltall Zero
Member
What a ridiculous comparison. Options that make the gameplay easier (and therefore make the experience a completely different one) are not just different than purely aesthetic character customization; they are literal polar opposites. You might as well decry the different clothes in the game, or the fact that you can change Link's name. Trying to appeal to hardcore gamers and the "easy mode" discussion is pretty disingenuous when you are fully aware that much more valid comparisons exist: that of character customization in other games. Of course, you know that by trying to paint these as negatives you'll end up looking like a lunatic.
There is zero value in tradition. Tradition is a cancer and crutch of the mind for the intellectually lazy. Eradicate it anywhere you detect something is done a certain way for no valid reason other than tradition.
As for the remaining 2/3rds, there is indeed value in limited choice and linearity, but to extoll them in the context of this, of all games, is, to put it generously, weird.
Chip N Chance
Member
Its not nearly as cool as you just described. Im done with the princess peach argument.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Why are you defending that game from criticism of perpetuating a stereotype? No matter how cool the creators may have thought it to be, it reflects a stereotype that women are overly emotional. That, along with other instances of tone-deafness on Nintendo's part (which you'll need to be listed out comprehensively), the criticisms are warranted against that game, against Metroid Other M, against Tomadachi Life, against their reasoning for characters in TriForce Heroes, and Aonumams comments here.
This made me smile. Thank you for proving my point.
So we aren't allowed to make Video Games were women are overly emotional? What's the 'emotional threshold" when it becomes sexist? Tears? Blushing? Smiling? How much emotion is "sexist emotion"?
WrenchNinja
Member
Also true. I guess there are some games like those AC spinoffs, fatal frame, Beyond Good and Evil and Mirror's Edge, that new drink box game Severed, that do star someone else. But it's not a whole lot.
It's pretty clear that the idea of a female Link option is just completely incomprehensible for them. "Link is the main character, not Zelda!" It's kinda funny to be honest.
A Link to the Past
Banned
In The Wind Waker, we had Tetra, an awesome pirate who became Zelda and immediately became less awesome and essentially a damsel in distress until the very end of the game.
TWW establishes "being Zelda" as such a detriment that it actually corrupted Tetra and had her become a damsel in distress in literally less than one minute in Phantom Hourglass.
WrenchNinja
Member
only time zeldas been useful was when she was dead (spirit tracks)
Figured it would only be a matter of time before you showed up....
That's your interpretation of what happened. It's your sexist opinion on the role of Zelda in WW. That's how YOU feel, and that's how YOU interpret the game.
I see it as her staying behind to protect what's left of her Kingdom from Ganondorf, sacrificing herself by getting captured, and then using the power of the Triforce to help Link defeat Ganon with the Arrows of Light. The character of Zelda has ALWAYS been about self-sacrifice to protect the people of Hyrule.
If you see her as anything less than that. YOU are sexist.
Spring-Loaded
Member
It's the first and only Princess Peach game and it features abilities created solely for that game. While no Mario character has received extensive characterization, Peach was never portrayed as overly emotional, and having that be a defining trait in her own game from both gameplay and story perspectives has no basis in the character's history. It has no root in the character, and most anyone not playing devil's advocate has been able to extrapolate that it comes from that well-known stereotype.
Those stereotypical instances of less common types of characters stand out more than stereotypical depictions of more common types of characters (i.e. white men). And since depiction of one of Nintendo's most popular female characters has more exposure, it's that much worse. That coupled with Nintendo's other follies reflects that they are out of touch.
I'll make a thread about Super Princess Peach and you can see other peoples reaction to that game, and maybe even discuss it there.
WrenchNinja
Member
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Well Ganon is actually only one person. There aren't lots of different Ganons. There are lots of different Links. If Ganon was a reborn new person in most games, sure. That'd be different. That's why the issue isn't "Keeping Link Male". All the previous Links will remain boys. The issue is "Making future Links all male."
It's a family name given to the first born daughter. So it's doubtful they'd name the Prince Zelda. However, the 2 incarnations not part of the royal family weren't even named Zelda. So being named Zelda nor being royalty are actually required, so yeah, there totally could have been a keeper of the triforce of wisdom who was a boy. Prince or not. There were likely many many Zeldas throughout history that weren't reincarnations just because it's the Princess name.
I'm not sure why you guys think the Zelda being a guy question is a gotcha. It's less on the forefront because she's not the protagonist.
Yes they have the creative right to tell the stories they want to tell. But how they tell the stories is a reflection on them, and people are allowed to critique choices. Or even express to nintendo what they think of their choices. And Zelda isn't "a character" she's many characters as well. And yeah, they're against Zelda having a playable "aspect" but Link needs something to do apparently... So they can make the next Link a girl, and the next Zelda can remain a secondary character as Nintendo wants to keep her.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I never realized that actually being able to remember what happened in a story was what sexist meant. I don't get why people are so defensive in that case, it sounds like a pretty good thing!
As WrenchNinja pointed out (thanks!), she was told to stay behind. Not to protect Hyrule, but to keep her safe from Ganondorf. Jeez, what are ya, a fake gamer? Don't you feel embarrassed to be so thoroughly debunked after acting like a know-it-all? I'm surprised you didn't mix Link and Zelda with how little you understand about TWW (and yet have deigned yourself an arbiter of a game you don't remember).
And by the way, really consider why in this discussion, the only people who seem to throw around the term sexist are the people who are talking about reverse sexism or "true sexism." Honestly, there's a great debate to be had about Zelda and gender and gender roles and all of that, but not involving people who go from 0 to 60 on ad hominems because video game opinions.
A Link to the Past
Banned
But no one claimed that she did nothing? I even specifically discussed her last-minute de-damseling. That she became a damsel shows just how hard it is to give her an active role (for Nintendo, anyway).
DangerMouse
Member
Here's the thing though. That's funny since in half the interviews Aonuma loves just as much to gloat about how the character shouldn't be thought about much and how he's the avatar for the player in interviews so they try not to have him be ultra distinctive and those character traits you listed are immensely broad/common that either a male or female could embody them and the Links aren't even the same person. So even Aonuma himself disagrees on him being a distinct when it's convenient for him. They don't get to automatically without criticism have their cake and eat it too wanting it both ways while pretending it's so impossible.
Meanwhile at the same time, completely writing off the possibility of a mainline Zelda game with Zelda as the player character and protagonist.
Someone mentioned Spirit Tracks...that was a very good example of Princess Zelda. Seeing her go from a useless figurehead to someone
was really magical. Her character development was fun and well thought out.
For this...you have to realize Phantom Hourglass sold very well on the DS...primarily with young Japanese girls. This caught Aonuma's attention and probably shaped the better characterization of Zelda in Spirit Tracks. Which btw...Tetra in PH is terrrrible, they could not redeem her character after that mess.
It seemed like Iwata's mission statement for the Wii and DS revolved around getting a "wider audience" AKA girls and women to be bigger consumers.
It's nice when developers and producers throw us a bone and it is a little sad that they might put us on the ignore list again. However, I consider Zelda to be a franchise with a lot of great female characters, and I'm hopeful that they'll be something cool to see.
During the 90s in Japan, gender equality was rapidly on the rise...and I think that had a lot of influence over Ocarina of Time. For instance ganguro was really big and rebellious Japanese girls used that style a lot because it was the exact opposite of what the Japanese "patriarchal" beauty standard was. The Japanese feminists loved it and the media thought Japanese women had gone nuts. This probably influence the Gerudo...a lot! In OoT the stronngest enemies "Iron Knuckles" are all surprisingly women. And of course there's Sheik and Impa definitely changed a lot from the NES iteration. If it hadn't been for that sharp social change...who knows, OoT might've been a very different game. And honestly might not have attracted 7-year-old me as much as it had.
Stuff like that is interesting but it basically tells me one thing. Nintendo won't do anything unless there's something big to push them to do it. Whether that's sales or a social movement they do pay attention.
Edit: That said...when it comes to the great characterization of Midna in TP or Zelda in ST...it does diminish Link/the player. But I honestly don't mind. In MM, Link doesn't really matter that much, it's the lives of everyone he bumps into that really has the character and I think that's great.
who is playable and fighting the end boss
For this...you have to realize Phantom Hourglass sold very well on the DS...primarily with young Japanese girls. This caught Aonuma's attention and probably shaped the better characterization of Zelda in Spirit Tracks. Which btw...Tetra in PH is terrrrible, they could not redeem her character after that mess.
It seemed like Iwata's mission statement for the Wii and DS revolved around getting a "wider audience" AKA girls and women to be bigger consumers.
It's nice when developers and producers throw us a bone and it is a little sad that they might put us on the ignore list again. However, I consider Zelda to be a franchise with a lot of great female characters, and I'm hopeful that they'll be something cool to see.
During the 90s in Japan, gender equality was rapidly on the rise...and I think that had a lot of influence over Ocarina of Time. For instance ganguro was really big and rebellious Japanese girls used that style a lot because it was the exact opposite of what the Japanese "patriarchal" beauty standard was. The Japanese feminists loved it and the media thought Japanese women had gone nuts. This probably influence the Gerudo...a lot! In OoT the stronngest enemies "Iron Knuckles" are all surprisingly women. And of course there's Sheik and Impa definitely changed a lot from the NES iteration. If it hadn't been for that sharp social change...who knows, OoT might've been a very different game. And honestly might not have attracted 7-year-old me as much as it had.
Stuff like that is interesting but it basically tells me one thing. Nintendo won't do anything unless there's something big to push them to do it. Whether that's sales or a social movement they do pay attention.
Edit: That said...when it comes to the great characterization of Midna in TP or Zelda in ST...it does diminish Link/the player. But I honestly don't mind. In MM, Link doesn't really matter that much, it's the lives of everyone he bumps into that really has the character and I think that's great.
Night Angel
Member
This is a reach that Space Jam Michael Jordan would be jealous of.
For real, your gamergate assertions are absolutely ridiculous. His post wasn't about ethics, get off it. Literally no one else sees the intent you're ascribing to his posts but you because it isn't there.
I think diminishes is too harsh or negative a word. Does it remove some of the focus off of Link? Yes, but is that a bad thing at all? No, I don't think so. It's OK that Link isn't the sole focus of the series, he's never not going to be the main character. Him not having 100% of the spotlight isn't going to ruin anything. If anything it's often proven to provide some of the best moments in the series. So it's more than fine and great when other people get development and play a larger role in the plot.
Just as you say MM is the favorite for a lot of people because of all the interaction we have with the NPCs of the world. Most of their stories have little to do with Link, if nothing at all, he's simply an outside observer who helps to move them along. And then there is the main antagonist of that story with the Skull Kid who also was a great character with a very subdued but touching arc.
People loved Midna and the saga of the Twili, which was easily the best part of that game story wise, unlike the crappy relationship they tried to develop for Link with Ilia and co. Tetra in WW was a huge breath of fresh air and then Zelda in ST as you noted was great and well developed. Same for Sheik before them all. Everyone really enjoyed Groose, Zelda and Impa in SS too.
Extending that further out and allowing Zelda to play an even larger role in the story and as a playable character is nothing but a positive for the series. Link's role and position within the series isn't going to change anytime soon, and that's a good thing, but there's no reason for him to have a virtual monopoly on things.
I mean Nintendo themselves created the Fallen timeline, fans never really even considered that. They've already laid the foundation for a situation when Link objectively fails and it's only because of Zelda and the help of the sages that the world isn't overcome by darkness. They've already written that story, they just haven't made a game of it. So it's not some out of nowhere crazy idea that some other time in that universe Link might fail again in one way or another, or at the very least be unable to save the world all on his own.
trugs26
Member
To play Devil's Advocate, and defend the possibility that the comment made by Aonuma was only a partial response filtered through an English translation:
"What is Link going to do" - What he could be referring to here is that Link represents courage, Zelda is Wisdom, and Ganon is power. This is the balance of the Triforce. So when he says "if Zelda does the fighting, what will Link do?", what he is saying "if we have Wisdom fighting, what will Courage do?". Which does make sense and is less sexist sounding than the initial response, so this could be what he is referring to.
"What is Link going to do" - What he could be referring to here is that Link represents courage, Zelda is Wisdom, and Ganon is power. This is the balance of the Triforce. So when he says "if Zelda does the fighting, what will Link do?", what he is saying "if we have Wisdom fighting, what will Courage do?". Which does make sense and is less sexist sounding than the initial response, so this could be what he is referring to.
Can I spoil Skyward Sword?
Skyward Sword could've been about Zelda (Wisdom) realizing she was Hylia and purifying herself or whatever...and Link (Courage) could've been following after her every step of the way...but always a bit too late.
In fact...that's exactly what SS was about. In the credits they show exactly that. And I remember screaming and being like
"You mean she was doing all this cool s*** while I was just left in the dark following?"
Although...I think the ideal scenario would be something like Spirit Tracks with a Co-op feel to it. Zelda fights one way, Link fights a different way. Together you get some new interesting puzzle mechanics. I actually thought that's what was coming next. Although Nintendo isn't great with friendly AI so...
But in BotW The friendly AI looks pretty good! So...I mean...they could still do what I want! Lol.
Bakkus
Member
I'm sure you can find interviews of him saying that, however as with most game developers you can find contradictions in what they're saying and what's happening in the game(s)
What kind of argument is this supposed to be? Couldn't this be used for most if not all male characters from other games, given very few of them have personality traits only men can have? And vice versa of course with female characters. I added in another post once more in that Link manage to befriend many females, and lots of them goes over not so subtle to romance territory. Look at this official trailer for Skyward Sword for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot4QdZrRe54
Post 2762 and 2766 also add other traits he has as a character.
I've said this before, but i'll say it again; That seems like a good idea for a spin off title. It's perfectly understandable why they don't wanna do that with the main series.
That is quite a stretch mate,
DragonGirl
Member
Each game is a retelling of a hero's story. There wouldn't even be a time line if fans hadn't demanded one. This is irrelevant. A character doesn't need to have a personality to be iconic. Mario and Samus (prior to being botched in Other M) had as much personality as Link. A character can be defined by a look, by movement, by tradition. Link is an elf boy. That's enough. He's not a generic character by the simple fact that you can hold up a picture of Link and have him be immediately recognizable. Like holding up a big circle with two little circles attached and have people immediately say Mickey Mouse.
He doesn't need to be gender swapped and I find the idea a cheap form of appeasement. There are better and far more thoughtful ways to go about better gender representation. Sticking a bow on Link is lazy pandering.
As for Aonuma's statement. Sure, it sounds goofy but we don't have much insight into how the Mythos of Zelda is considered internally at Nintendo. Meta Concepts which provide rules for internal consistency can indeed sound very silly. Or it could be shallow nonsense. It wasn't very enlightening either way.
I am perfectly well aware that they don't know what to do with Metroid right now. That's the godamned point but thanks for your contribution.
...what a baffling interpretation of Wind Waker's story.
Zelda staying behind didn't accomplish shit. She was hiding in a hole, and every bit of a spunk, determination and confidence Tetra had instantly vanished the second she put on the dress.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I can't wait to hear the other hand waving
"She got put into a crystal so that she could keep an eye on Ganon - I mean why else was she on Death Mountain???"
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
This is incorrect, they always intended the games to be connected by time even if they hadn't fleshed out all the details. Zelda 2 was a direct sequel of 1. Ocarina of time referenced Link to the past and even made the Sages names in Ocarina of time the same as the towns in Zelda 2 to show the towns were named after the Sages. It's all one world, not just a simple retelling each time. Twilight Princess Link was trained by OOT Link. Two individual people. Not a retelling. Not the same character. So it wouldn't be simply "putting a bow on Link" because the Links are different characters. You are the one insulting the series by diminishing Link to a mere picture of an elf boy.
Bakkus
Member
The king was overprotective because if the evil SOB got his hands on her he would take over the world, how would you suggest the story arc for Zelda should have been from that point onwards?
Ever played Spirit Tracks? That disproves the notion that they can't give her an active role.
A Link to the Past
Banned
No, the king was overprotective because they decided that it had to be that way. Seriously, are you the one who wrote the "Triforce balance" excuse? If so, you may have topped yourself there.
The situation you describe is arbitrarily the way it is, circular reasoning. People aren't asking for a plot justification, people are asking why they decided to write Zelda the way she did and why Tetra becoming Zelda can also be called "Tetra becoming useless." Pointing out the contrived excuse that could be overcame by, for instance, having her die and her spirit inhabit a suit of armor.
And by the way, "Spirit Tracks was fine, so all other Zeldas are fine" is actually the worst argument ever.
I guess it's a way to explain why she doesn't just join Link in his quest. Zelda isn't TLOU where you always have an AI companion, you're mostly alone.
Of course it's not a problem if you make it so that Zelda is trapped in a castle or something throughout the entire game. But that's old fashioned, and these days she's usually an active player in the story who is competent herself. When that is the case, you have to come up with some contrived reason why Link, aka the player, still does the heavy lifting.
So in a way, it's the reverse of what Aonuma asked... "If Link does the fighting, what does Zelda do?" They seem bad at coming up with these things, so it becomes "She has to stay behind for her own safety", or "She's trapped in a crystal".
I suppose it could also be "She has to go retrieve some important object", that way she would have more agency without joining Link.
And I suppose they could make a game where Zelda is a permanent AI companion throughout the game, so something like Enslaved or TLOU.
Of course it's not a problem if you make it so that Zelda is trapped in a castle or something throughout the entire game. But that's old fashioned, and these days she's usually an active player in the story who is competent herself. When that is the case, you have to come up with some contrived reason why Link, aka the player, still does the heavy lifting.
So in a way, it's the reverse of what Aonuma asked... "If Link does the fighting, what does Zelda do?" They seem bad at coming up with these things, so it becomes "She has to stay behind for her own safety", or "She's trapped in a crystal".
I suppose it could also be "She has to go retrieve some important object", that way she would have more agency without joining Link.
And I suppose they could make a game where Zelda is a permanent AI companion throughout the game, so something like Enslaved or TLOU.
Haruka
Member
Didn't the Hyrule Historia establish the ownership of a Triforce piece can be transferred to another person? I believe the original owner doesn't even have to die for that to work. (Ganondorf took Zelda's piece in the Downfall timeline and she was still alive afterwards). So couldn't they think of a scenario where due to certain circumstances Zelda also inherites Courage? I don't think such a scenario would be necessary to make Zelda the hero, though.