AcademicSaucer
Member
No need to call him GGer tho.
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GameSpot: No Playable Female Character in new Zelda [UP: Additional Comments in OP]
- Thread starter maxcriden
- Start date
No need to call him GGer tho.
crisdecuba
Member
You're accusing him of being a gamergater. Doesn't sound diplomatic / respectful.
I just don't get the big deal and emotion of it all. It sounds like people just want the satisfaction of changing something that's been established for over two decades. Link has always been a blonde hair, blue eyed klutz since his creation. Play as Zelda? Nope, I want Link to be a woman. How about Linkle? Nope, not enough. Make Link a girl. Linkle is a literal female Link.
I have never thought to myself "I wish Link was black. I just can't relate to this character" so I'm having a hard time understanding why people are rustled that Link doesn't have slightly longer hair and a higher pitched voice. Or that Linkle isn't Link. You can play many other games with female leads but you want to spend your finite time and energy on caring about this. I don't know, it's just baffling.
I have never thought to myself "I wish Link was black. I just can't relate to this character" so I'm having a hard time understanding why people are rustled that Link doesn't have slightly longer hair and a higher pitched voice. Or that Linkle isn't Link. You can play many other games with female leads but you want to spend your finite time and energy on caring about this. I don't know, it's just baffling.
He argued that it would be wrong to offer the option to play as female Link because it would dilute the character. It is literally about ethics in this case.
We have someone whose honest argument against offering people to play as a woman is that it would dilute the character, which would have an effect on him.
Like all the people boycotting (or claiming they would) Star Wars VII, because of a female, a black and a Mexican leads? Yeah, that didn't really do shit, outside of a couple embarrassing tweets.
You could probably count on one hand the people who would actually not buy the new Zelda because of this, despite probably being very loud on Twitter.
I think the player base increase would've had a net positive with the inclusion of female link, not the other way around.
I don't think he is saying it would be unethical to "dilute the character", he is saying that the consistency of the character is either important to him, or to the brand in his eyes.
Still, blatantly trying to drag GG into it seems silly, when nothing he said ties into it remotely.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Should be the main character of a Zelda game,
Link just up and leaves his sister, sets off to new Hyrule and every following game in the timeline makes no mention of her.
Honestly when the new link was revealed and seemed somewhat feminine, I was hoping it was her setting out to find/help Link & Tetra in the new Hyrule.
Would be something incredibly new for the series and refreshing(especially if you have 20-30 year old Link & Tetra as the King and Queen)
No, he said this was true for any IP. He made it literally about ethics. He argued about how games are a social experience and that character dilution would ruin it or make the experience unrelatable.
How is consistency of characters in games about ethics? I'm not seeing a connection there.
You're being dense. By the logic I laid out in my argument, a female Link could sensibly work for a reincarnation, as confusing as that could be for branding of a 30-year old IP with one of the most iconic characters in gaming history, but it could work. However, making it a choice would be the wrong thing to do. Lock every player to the same version of Link, otherwise you create ambiguity.
You know that this is the only way to avoid "Link and FemLink" situation where one is considered the default or "correct" choice and the other is not.
There are no ethics involved here and your dogwhistling is petty.
Is ganon actually human? He somehow keeps turning into a giant pig.
I think Pig-Ganon is supposed to reflect upon his true nature, I think. We know he was born a Gerudo in Ocarina of Time.
This. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
SenorArdilla
Member
Woman
Man
Monster (Giant pig, Akuma, evil eyeball, evil train, witch, whatever works)
blankempathy
Member
I like to think that after Ganon is defeated that Hyrule celebrates with a gigantic Luau.
WrenchNinja
Member
It's too bad you've failed to elaborate on what the value is for this series.
We've gone all the way back to the "it would affect the brand argument", like how they've changed the branding of the series already with this new title...
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Its like you have never heard Zelda developers talk about Link or his name and such.
Except you made a general statement about IPs and about how certain decisions are fundamentally wrong, namely offering choices (due to "character dilution").
IronicSonic
Member
Yes, you can use the exact same argument to both sides. Why Aonuma chooses always male Link, then? Because his limited mindset regarding the rol of women in videogames.
Nothing wrong with being a macho culture emblem in videogames after 30 years, from a feminist standpoint.
-Minsc-
Member
<---- Sits in camp "Keep Link male"
The way I see it they neither need to conform to those wanting Link to stay male or redesigned as female (or neuter for that matter). They can make the game they want to make and implement suggestions from the consumer they wish to implement.. If people buy it, they buy it. If they don't, they don't. Much to the dismay of the demanding consumer, Nintendo seems to have been financially conservative enough to do what they want and weather sales duds.
Edit:
With high probability I say that is the truth of the matter and that it's perfectly fine.
The way I see it they neither need to conform to those wanting Link to stay male or redesigned as female (or neuter for that matter). They can make the game they want to make and implement suggestions from the consumer they wish to implement.. If people buy it, they buy it. If they don't, they don't. Much to the dismay of the demanding consumer, Nintendo seems to have been financially conservative enough to do what they want and weather sales duds.
Edit:
With high probability I say that is the truth of the matter and that it's perfectly fine.
blankempathy
Member
Macho used to describe Link. Thats a first.
I mean, for whatever reasoning, it's done isn't it? It's over. Es finito.
Like, the game has been shown, it's Link (and he's named by the game which is different), and there's no playable female option. Speculation is kind of finished, because now we know. At least until 2020 when the next zelda comes...
Ever Oasis though
Like, the game has been shown, it's Link (and he's named by the game which is different), and there's no playable female option. Speculation is kind of finished, because now we know. At least until 2020 when the next zelda comes...
Ever Oasis though
I think they said in the trailer that you can pick male or female in Ever Oasis, we just haven't seen the female choice.
That, and there are female partners you can choose to play as.
Spring-Loaded
Member
That Jim Sterling vid was so on point.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
That doesn't make it about ethics. He just voiced concerns about a design decision, one which he thinks applies to other established characters as well. It would only relate to ethics if he argued it violated whatever value system would see such a decision as inherently wrong, which he didn't. That's like saying someone disliking quick time events is making an ethical statement. Hamfisting a GG reference in there (because apparently that nonsense is still in vogue) does make you look petty and needlessly hostile, because there was absolutely no relation which warranted that.
Like the hat?
Banned
The triforce comment had nothing to do with gender and everything to do with Zelda not being playable because that's not the way a Zelda game is formulated
There are arguments to be made here about offering a female link but the triforce balance comment was specifically about the three aspects of the triforce
Seriously people are taking this "what would link do" quote and trying to make it sound like "psh, a girl can't be a hero! What would the man do?" When it's actually if the embodiment of wisdom is the hero, what does the embodiment of courage do.
It would be so easy to make it optional to play as a girl too. Link is already androgynous, doesn't talk, and has a high pitched voice. Literally the only thing they need to do is ask at the beginning of the game if you're a boy or a girl. If you're a girl then NPCs refer to you with female pronouns. Boom. Girl Link.
FinalHeaven
Neo Member
Honestly, I would just rather see a game about Zelda specifically and see her fleshed out more as a character. I do understand there is no reason we couldn't have both but I just personally feel like this is being blown up into a way bigger issue than it really is.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe Nintendo can make good on this mistake by making a proper new Metroid game?
Please?
Seems like part of the problem is they just can't decide on if Link is a character of his own or if he's a representation of the player. Maybe if they just decided to go with Link being his own character, and made the overarching connections a little more obvious so you don't have to dig through interviews to figure out that the games actually do connect to each other, people wouldn't have expectations about Link being customizable.
Still, if he's supposed to be treated as his own character, they could still just make one version of Link be only female.
Please?
Seems like part of the problem is they just can't decide on if Link is a character of his own or if he's a representation of the player. Maybe if they just decided to go with Link being his own character, and made the overarching connections a little more obvious so you don't have to dig through interviews to figure out that the games actually do connect to each other, people wouldn't have expectations about Link being customizable.
Still, if he's supposed to be treated as his own character, they could still just make one version of Link be only female.
I think this would be a nice change. Instead of just playing as Zelda, or changing Link's gender, I think a new female lead, in a world where "traditional" Zelda and Link still exists, can show that a woman can be the hero too in The Legend of Zelda.
Yeah, I meant Ever Oasis though, as in it's a game that got announced with a choice
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Something like courageously save Zelda by taking the hit from a curse beam instead, and being put out of action that way? What is it about the triforce of wisdom that is the unique embodiment of spending most of the game doing nothing?
Personally my bigger problem is the embodiment of wisdom doesn't seem like the type to pick up a sword and shield, which would really change the gameplay around, but their explanation does seem pretty terrible.
Partnering them up could be a good compromise.
Because some people want player characters they can connect with, and some people want more role models they can relate to. Those things aren't helped or are made worse by making Ganondorf female or Zelda male.
And yes, Nintendo does have creative liberty to do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean people can't criticize those creative decisions and advocate for something they want to see changed in future instalments.
Also I do think that they could change Ganondorf to female and even though the message boards would erupt at the lore implications, the vast majority of player wouldn't care because the lore aspect of zelda is way too obscure.
crisdecuba
Member
Feel free to make arguments but don't claim you're being "very diplomatic and respectful" when calling them a gamergater. And this is coming from someone who generally agrees with you.
balgajo
Member
I already talked about it sometimes but after those Miyamoto quotes it's even clear to me.
The reincarnation process in Legend of Zelda was created to justify the fact that the main characters would remain as the same along the games of the franchise. It was not created in order to have flexibility like Avatar.
Given how much care Nintendo treat their characters they will not make moves that could damage them (like female Link or male Zelda). They cared even about Impa in TP. There's a male design of her that wasn't used in the end.
EDIT: Lol at people talking about criticizing creative decisions when talking about Link. Complaining because the main character of a series continues to be the main character is not even criticism in my book, it's complaint. I don't even think there's some decision in this. That's the default, the only thing they decide is their new design.
The reincarnation process in Legend of Zelda was created to justify the fact that the main characters would remain as the same along the games of the franchise. It was not created in order to have flexibility like Avatar.
Given how much care Nintendo treat their characters they will not make moves that could damage them (like female Link or male Zelda). They cared even about Impa in TP. There's a male design of her that wasn't used in the end.
EDIT: Lol at people talking about criticizing creative decisions when talking about Link. Complaining because the main character of a series continues to be the main character is not even criticism in my book, it's complaint. I don't even think there's some decision in this. That's the default, the only thing they decide is their new design.
UncleSporky
Member
The dumb thing is, he could say it's actually about ethics and that still wouldn't make him a GGer.
The connection is only drawn between ethics and GG because they continued using that specific phrasing as a shield for their true beliefs. This doesn't mean that all matters of ethics now hide some sinister true belief.
The connection is only drawn between ethics and GG because they continued using that specific phrasing as a shield for their true beliefs. This doesn't mean that all matters of ethics now hide some sinister true belief.
crisdecuba
Member
Also true.
IronicSonic
Member
Good post
DragonGirl
Member
I've said this before and I'll say it again. No way in hell do I want to be appeased by a company gender swapping an iconic established character. Link is Link. He's a guy. That's fine. Changing that is stupid. If a Zelda game is going to have a playable female then how about Link and Zelda both being playable, maybe switch between them? Link is not a generic create your own character.
I don't want female Link any more than I want Male Samus. Speaking of which, how about a new Metroid instead? You know, the action adventure franchise that already has an iconic playable female protagonist?
I don't want female Link any more than I want Male Samus. Speaking of which, how about a new Metroid instead? You know, the action adventure franchise that already has an iconic playable female protagonist?
I'm happy, no need for female link. Maybe they could make a spinoff for it for people who wants it, why not.
I hope we can expext ganon again like he was in n64.
I loved the temple also. I think we can also expect something like that.
I wonder if they put old environments in it from older zelda games. But just detIls, not the complete are.
I hope we can expext ganon again like he was in n64.
I loved the temple also. I think we can also expect something like that.
I wonder if they put old environments in it from older zelda games. But just detIls, not the complete are.
Have we honestly become so stifled by identity politics that we can't relate or identify with a character who is a different gender/race/whatever? To me that says a lot about the people who are causing an uproar. One of the things I'm glad for growing up as a minority is that I learned to appreciate and relate with characters who look nothing like me.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Oh you mean the iconic female character that got completely destroyed and manhandled by Nintendo themselves by Other M so bad 6 years ago that they don't know what to do with the franchise and thus decided that the first new Metroid release since 2010 was going to be a multiplayer-only 3DS game with an all-male cast and without Samus in sight? That's what we can seek for solace?
Yeah, you're the first person to come up with that. How about a new Metroid? Nintendo has been on top of things lately. I'm sure they're already working on one and that there's no way they'll drop the ball three times in a row.
/s
I suppose if you give a gender option it would then also lead to questions like why not a different race, why not different hair etc. It would basically lead down a path to a fully customized character, something that Nintendo, a company that relies pretty heavily on branding, probably wouldn't like.
Azure Dream
Member
As it's been said a hundred times before in this thread, "Link" isn't a singular Link. "Link" is a series of characters spread across time, spanning multiple timelines. "Link" is a reincarnation of the same general spirit, but that doesn't mean the outside is the same.
"Link" also usually has the personality of a tortilla chip, with a few small exceptions, and you're usually encouraged to rename them with the player name.
This game even features Link fighting next to Link if you tap the right Amiibo. But they're clearly different. So for the last time, a female "Link" is not the same as a male Samus.
Some people would be fine with that, but Aonuma also made a goofy statement in regard to that.
Chip N Chance
Member
The whole mechanic of this game was that Peach would have mood swings and you would activate each one depending on the situation or puzzle. Cry to water a plant to make it grow, get angry to deal more damage on a enemy, be happy to float into the sky singing like mary poppins, and there was another i cant think of. It was a real bad example of Princess Peach being a real female character. Im not bashing you for posting this (you were just proving that posters mistake), im just now remembering that this was a trip. lol
I agree with Jim Sterling. If you don't want to have a female option, that's perfectly fine. Just say, "I didn't want a female option" if asked. There's nothing wrong with that. It's your creation so you can do whatever you want. But to give stupid excuses like, "it's too hard to model a female" or "if Zelda fights, what is Link going to do?" is ridiculous.
Look I agree with you. I just think Nintendo, contrary to some of their decisions, prefers to stay away from controversy.