Here's the quote.
It doesn't sound like they've ever seriously considered that Link would simply be reincarnated as a woman.
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GameSpot: No Playable Female Character in new Zelda [UP: Additional Comments in OP]
- Thread starter maxcriden
- Start date
Here's the quote.
It doesn't sound like they've ever seriously considered that Link would simply be reincarnated as a woman.
GinoFelino
Member
Yep, nailed it.
Also, 'it would mess with the balance of the Triforce' is the lamest excuse for not having a female protagonist I've heard so far.
Come on now, Aonuma. You're better than that.
In short, it's old, conservative men being slightly out of touch and not even comprehending the question being asked of them. Bit disappointing, really.
The really sucky thing is that Link was always intended to be an audience insert character, like they've said so many times, and now saying that 50% of humanity never deserve to have that link resembling them in a mainline Zelda game. It boggles the mind since of all Nintendo main series Zelda is the one that would benefit most from customizable protag.
The really sucky thing is that Link was always intended to be an audience insert character, like they've said so many times, and now saying that 50% of humanity never deserve to have that link resembling them in a mainline Zelda game. It boggles the mind since of all Nintendo main series Zelda is the one that would benefit most from customizable protag.
Bakkus
Member
Absolutely not. The fact that arguments like this are still repeated 2600+ posts in this thread is embarrassing.
IronicSonic
Member
could you explain why?
Bots are better than you
Banned
As someone from the "Link = character, should stay male" camp, that part about Zelda never going to be the protagonist is bullshit imo.
If anything, most of the games showed that in the end, both courage and wisdom have to work together to defeat power. So, imo there wouldn't be a real difference if the "work" to this very moment is done by Zelda instead of Link.
I'd certainly want a game with Zelda as the heroine and Link as a dude in distress.
Hint: it's because the counter-arguments presented make no fucking sense.
Also "Absolutely not", "nuh huh", "feminists are taking mah games away", "Nintendo always knows best" and such are not actually compelling evidence, as we are not in South Park.
What is even the argument against giving players the option? It's the cheapest, easiest, least intrusive way of allowing people to play as a woman in that world. No one loses anything.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Can you answer me what "character" means to you? I'm genuinely curious.
1) What is it about multiple people with different backstories that somehow become one character to you?
2) What about this character, since actual life history and such isn't important, excludes the next one from being a girl and still being the same character?
Spring-Loaded
Member
That's the silliest part of Aonuma's comments, that it would somehow be simpler to have Zelda as a protagonist added into an existing framework built with playable Link in mind.
It's like ... wat. Changing the character model and text slightly would be harder than fitting a completely different character in?
Well it makes sense for Link to be male with the way they have gone for this game. You start by waking up after 100 years and the game heavily hints you are the Hero of Time from the downfall timeline. If it turns out to be true that you're playing as Link from earlier in the timeline, it makes sense for him to be male as he is still the same Link.
Synless
Member
Maybe that person just wants the person he/she is playing as to remain a male. Is there an issue with that posters opinion? ypu can't say one something isn't important because to someone it is.
Personally I would love to play as a female link. Do I care which one I get though? No.
You care strongly about the canon, the timeline and the continuity, apparently now big staples of the series, you play as a man. What do you lose if they offer players the option to play as a woman?
SparkleMotion
Member
Pretty much my feeling. Though I really hate when they bring up certain lore stuff like it's some sacred all important thing because very little of that shit actually matters or affects the stories in the games. The Triforce is a great little macguffin in the series but its actual affect on the characters and everything is completely irrelevant the vast majority of the time. At most we get a line saying we are the carrier of the Triforce of Courage or we have to actually gather the physical piece that do nothing. That's it. The games don't have deep stories or plots, nor deep character development and real moments of crisis of character where the piece of the Triforce they bare could play a part. It's just words.
Using some totally hollow excuse that Zelda can't be the protagonist because she's got the Triforce of Wisdom and not Courage is such bullshit nonsense. Especially when in many games it plays zero part in the story and in some games Link obtains all the pieces of the Triforce. While in the original game the Triforce of Courage isn't even involved at all. He's collecting the Triforce of Wisdom and Power only. It's not until AoL that Courage comes into play.
Hell in WW the whole Triforce hunt was a means to prove Link's courage, something anyone could technically do. Wisdom was a literally physical object that was passed down to Tetra/Zelda from her mother.
I mean fuck, all of this is just nonsense. It's fun little stuff that can be used in the games, but it has no concrete order or logic to it that could in any way that requires one character to be the protagonist while another can never be.
The only problem I could imagine is that it establishes that option as something that people now get every time. That means if they want to make the next game have a big focus on a Link that has to be male they'd kind of be in trouble.
Removing the option after one game would guarantee and even bigger outcry than now.
You lose nothing if the game is a standalone story and unconnected to the previous games.
Watching the Treehouse footage from E3 reveals that Link has been asleep for 100 years and has amnesia, the people from Nintendo demonstrating the title even referred to him as the Hero of Time heavily implying you are playing as the same Link from Ocarina of Time's downfall timeline. If this is true, it makes sense for him to be male as it is the same character.
However, if all the hints and speculation turn out to be false and you are not the Hero of Time/ an existing Link from a previous game then there is no excuse for not giving the option of playing as a female Link. At no point in Zelda canon has it ever been stated that Link/ the hero has to be male so I don't see how giving the player the option to choose takes away from the previous games/ existing canon.
CreateNowSleepLater
Member
What is the outrage over a 20+ year old series not changing it's protagonists gender again? Should Mario and Master Chief be turned female as well? Makes no sense at all. There are plenty of titles coming out with female leads, I dont get it.
LordOcidax
Member
Agree with you. I dont get it
Bakkus
Member
Is it too hard for you to go through a few of the pages? Pretty much every one features good counter arguments as to why it feels important to many he remain male. I could post some, but i'm unsure if it's worth explaining it to people who seriously think this has to do with Nintendo being sexist and anti progressive and whatever the hell else.
Ok, i'll give one argument often posted. Contrary to what you feel, Nintendo does not feel Link is a blank slate! Unlike games from Bioware, Bethesda, etc. They see him as a distinct character, and yes I know there have been different Links, but every one has had some similar character traits. Clumsy, courageous, brave, etc. Plus there are rumors that this is an earlier Link from another game who has waken up again in a deserted future Hyrule. If that's the case it wouldn't even make any sense story wise to have a female option.
And how any of those are arguments South Park often uses I would like an explanation on if it wasn't for me then contributing to off-topic. But i've seen every episode and that kind of stuff is really far from what Trey and Matt do.
Edit: Other good repeated arguments two, and four posts up.
You don't get it because you don't get Legend of Zelda and the argument some are making. There are different Links. This is known. The idea is that this could've been a new link and was female. There aren't different Mario's so that counterargument is so blatantly unintelligent its too sad to laugh at.
With that said, this is not a new link so having him wake up as a female makes no sense. All of this debate about it is just a reflection to the over-sensitivity on both sides of the debate.
It's funny but I never really bought the "Link is an audience insert character" completely since he does have a lot of personality in most of the games.
Oh well, at least I hope that for the new game they gave us DLC where you can play as maybe Impa (since the Sheikah tribe has such a big role on the story) or even as Princess Zelda.
Oh well, at least I hope that for the new game they gave us DLC where you can play as maybe Impa (since the Sheikah tribe has such a big role on the story) or even as Princess Zelda.
To be fair Mario series managed that by making Peach and Rosalina playable in the latest main game.
Screamapillar
Member
Would it be a really simple and was adjustment to make to the game to allow Link to be either male or female? Yes, probably.
Should it not happen, should it affect people's willingness to buy and play the game? Come on. Absolutely not.
Should it not happen, should it affect people's willingness to buy and play the game? Come on. Absolutely not.
FacelessSamurai
..but cry so much I wish I had some
I will never understand complaining about his because personally, when I play the game, the whole point for me is not about feeling like I'm the character or anything like that. I am playing he game to see the character's story unfold and whether it's a male or female character I'll have the same amount of fun.
I mean at the point, should we have a male or female Kratos and a male or female Nathan Drake? It doesn't make any sense at all!
Link is and has always been the main protagonist in Zelda games. I understand that it's not always the same exact boy in each of the games. However, that's what the game creators feel like doing and I'll respect that and it won't change my enjoyment of the game at all, just like I didn't have any problems playing as Lara Croft in Tomb Raider.
I mean at the point, should we have a male or female Kratos and a male or female Nathan Drake? It doesn't make any sense at all!
Link is and has always been the main protagonist in Zelda games. I understand that it's not always the same exact boy in each of the games. However, that's what the game creators feel like doing and I'll respect that and it won't change my enjoyment of the game at all, just like I didn't have any problems playing as Lara Croft in Tomb Raider.
As has been repeated multiple times in this thread and others, if you actually believed Nintendo's explanation that Link is a blank slate insert, you must also accept their explanation that he represents a computer chip linking to the console, or that he is a link between past and future.
Because those are two other explanations that predated the "he is a link to YOU please buy our game" explanations.
You either believe them all or you believe none of them, you don't get to cherry pick the one you like the most.
Because those are two other explanations that predated the "he is a link to YOU please buy our game" explanations.
You either believe them all or you believe none of them, you don't get to cherry pick the one you like the most.
You are not answering my question. What do you, as someone that cares about continuity and canon, lose if they offer the option to play as a woman for those that care about it? They could even have a big warning sign if you choose to play as a woman.
The canon doesn't change, the continuity doesn't change. You care strongly that the protagonist in previous games was a man, you just play as male Link.
CreateNowSleepLater
Member
Right but who cares? It's their character and their creation. Why should they change the gender because other people want them to? The counter argument shouldn't exist. People have a stupid request, they could have just said. Yeah, Link is male.
You don't lose anything. However if Nintendo want to tell a specific story involving the downfall timeline and the Link from Ocarina of Time then I understand why they didn't include the option to choose your gender.
So George Lucas was right and they should never release the original trilogy as anything but the special editions? Han shot second? Glad we got that out of the way once and for all.
If no one loses anything, then there is no argument against offering the option.
Video games are an art form, so it deserves all types of criticism. I find most mainstream movies, music and games to intolerable these days... I loathe what they stand for and I despise how they are marketed. However, I accept these mediums as art, so in turn I'll respect the fact that the creators made what they wanted. An artist shouldn't feel pressured to create or change something just because someone else thinks they should. I will never be outraged at art that I had no hand in creating.
As far as the new Zelda. the visual style is gorgeous. They could have moved forward and changed it up by making a playable female lead, but they chose not to. I would have been excited about that and would have looked forward to playing it. Instead, the fact that it lacks really any new concepts or ideas is why it's not even close to the top of my list of upcoming games. I'd rather stick with the classic masterpieces and focus on games that have original, refreshing ideas and characters.
As far as the new Zelda. the visual style is gorgeous. They could have moved forward and changed it up by making a playable female lead, but they chose not to. I would have been excited about that and would have looked forward to playing it. Instead, the fact that it lacks really any new concepts or ideas is why it's not even close to the top of my list of upcoming games. I'd rather stick with the classic masterpieces and focus on games that have original, refreshing ideas and characters.
CreateNowSleepLater
Member
You just made my point. Lucas was the creator, he did whatever the hell he wanted. He knew people wanted to see Vader cutting down Jedi for 2 movies. He didn't care. If Nintendo wanted Link to be female, they would do that. YOU are asking them to make the change and then questioning their logic for not doing so. It's easy, they don't want to and they shouldn't have to.
I will never get this mindset. "It's fine if they map cheat codes to face buttons (FF ports), or if they add in easy mode (Souls series) or if they make the character of dozens of games suddenly female (Zelda), it doesn't affect YOU!"
But it does.
We are social, we don't live in a vacuum, we want to share our gaming experiences but we want those experiences to be relatable to each other.
Implementing an easy mode in Souls removes the achievement of finishing the games, which is what the community is structured around. Built-in cheat codes removes the time and energy investment reward loop inherent to RPG completion. And making Link a create-a-character means you're no longer playing Zelda, you're playing Graal.
"Link could be anything therefore he must be" is silly.
There is value in tradition. There is value in limited choice, and there is value in linearity.
But I'm not arguing whether they should or should not. I dont believe they should but I believe they could and it would be nice but obviously its just pandering but whatever.
Also, if it is a new link it isn't a change in gender technically because Link is not 1 same character in every game. There are what? 3 or 4? I don't recall correctly. I think this is where Smash Bros has actually torn this argument apart because he seems like a set character there and he is. But when you look at Link from the LoZ series as a whole he is clearly a group of different yet connected people called Link
The way they responded to this was poor and made it worse. At the bottom of it all there is no goddamn controversy. People are finding problems where there isn't and it's just whatever. It's not shocking lol.
No, my point is that there is a very prominent example where essentially the entire fandom does not care at all about what the creator wants. The reaction there is completely different to how people defend this particular case.
As we say in German, 'Ein Schelm wer Böses dabei denkt'.
So if someone can play as a woman, that is not relatable to you. What an utterly bizarre thing to say.
IronicSonic
Member
I'm asking because it seems you didnt read the thread.
"Feels important to many he remain male"... Look, this statement dont make any sense beyond "because is the way I like" or "its the way I feel confortable" or "It has always been like this"
There's no reason for an always-male-Link, besides Aonuma
Afraid of what?
broken_sword
Banned
Ehhh, female Link is kind of silly. Link is Link, the same guy for 30 years. Why do some of you see that as a bad thing?
If anything, I'd be super cool, imo, to have Link be an elderly man that regales his grand daughter/village orphan Zelda with tales of adventure from his youth, how he saved the world from the evil Ganon[dorf?], etc. But Link's defeat of Ganon in the past was only a temporary solution, and the big bad has escaped from jail/come back to life/whatever, and now it is up to Zelda to save the day... and wouldn't you know it, she happens to be the last scion of her house and actually rightful Queen of Hyrule. As the game progresses you can come back to Grandpa Link and get new weapons/items from the gear he had collected through-out his adventures. Or something along those lines.
There is no reason to gender bend Link, other than "because is the way I like," or "its the way I feel comfortable."
Link is a male character and there is nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't it be cooler and more empowering to women to let Zelda be the player character and have her kick some butt, instead of playing as Link yet again?
If anything, I'd be super cool, imo, to have Link be an elderly man that regales his grand daughter/village orphan Zelda with tales of adventure from his youth, how he saved the world from the evil Ganon[dorf?], etc. But Link's defeat of Ganon in the past was only a temporary solution, and the big bad has escaped from jail/come back to life/whatever, and now it is up to Zelda to save the day... and wouldn't you know it, she happens to be the last scion of her house and actually rightful Queen of Hyrule. As the game progresses you can come back to Grandpa Link and get new weapons/items from the gear he had collected through-out his adventures. Or something along those lines.
I can use that exact same argument against a female Link though.
There is no reason to gender bend Link, other than "because is the way I like," or "its the way I feel comfortable."
Link is a male character and there is nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't it be cooler and more empowering to women to let Zelda be the player character and have her kick some butt, instead of playing as Link yet again?
Bakkus
Member
I like how you didn't quote my other reply in the same post. Or heck any of the other good arguments which has now appeared on this very page!
And if you read the thread then you'd see that I have, because I have written in this thread thousands of posts earlier.
To deal with the blatant sexism amongst the video game community.
That and it's just too controversial. I mean look at how much shit was caused by the idea in the first place. And no I'm not saying everybody who was against it is sexist. But let's not deny sexism is not a major problem in this industry.
He's not though. He's different Links with many similarities.
You are no longer controlling de-facto Link, you're controlling some representation of Link out of a list of choices (even if this choice is binary).
In any IP, this would be considered a dilution of the established character.
That would be pretty neat. I would also like a game that has swappable protagonists, like RE:0.
Could have Zelda (or whomever, really) and Link with different move sets but they must work together to solve puzzles and beat bosses. At different points they could split up or one rescues the other, etc. Ideally
you could play co-op.
It would be a different gimmick than they have used in the past.
As for Link being a girl, I don't really get why it matters.
So it is all about ethics in video games for you? That is honestly the explanation you are going with? Your experience would be ruined because allowing people to play as a woman would "dilute" the character?
No offense, but that honestly seems like a very bizarre thing to say.
AcademicSaucer
Member
No need to go aggro on him, all this is hypothetical after all, Nintendo is not going to give us the choice for female link anytime soon.
When words fail you, just start accusing people of being gamergaters, that's the way to have a discussion.
I'm not going aggro on him. I'm very diplomatic and respectful to someone that is saying that it would ruin his fun if others got to play as a woman.
You are arguing that offering an alternative option is wrong as it would "dilute" the character and ruin the experience for you. It is literally about ethics in video games (development) for you.
Why shouldn't Ganon be a female? He keeps coming back to life or reincarnating over centuries. The lore says he's the Gerudo King that is born only once every 100 years, but at this point it sounds like people would feel no qualms in forcing Nintendo to abandon their own lore for the sake of gender options. After all, Ganon doesn't need to be male. Why not just reincarnate the role of Ganon with a Gerudo female?
Why not have the King of Hyrule have a son instead of a daughter named Zelda? Her role is reincarnated through royal birth line. So her gender doesn't need to be locked either.
I find these conversations interesting but ultimately I think Nintendo has the creative right to tell the stories they want to tell, and it's not like they're against playable females. They made Zelda a strong part of Spirit Tracks. They respect Zelda a lot as a character. They made her a battle-ready princess in TP.
blankempathy
Member
There are other ways to interpret that. What about changing the recognition of a brand? People love to argue that Link as a character doesn't matter yet hes always forefront in promotional images and box art and merchandise associated with the games. So wouldn't making him a bit less recognizable be diluting the character from a marketing point of view? I just find it funny how people always downplay the importance of his appearance when he is the best selling amiibo out of all of the Nintendo mascots. He outsold Mario. A character with way more games and ties ins thqn Link.