Support NeoGAF

[Alpha_eX]

I respect their choice, you can be a female in Splatoon because it fits the game to have such a choice, it doesn't really need to be in Zelda. I'm sure both women and men can enjoy the game for what it is.

As for the first post, Nintendo don't hate women, you can play as females in a lot of their games, even Super Mario.

A nice solution would be to find female clothes that Link could wear, as Link doesn't look overly male or female, so could be left open to the player's choice of how they dress.

 

[Smellycat]

I don't understand the NEED to have a female Link. They considered it making Zelda the lead character (which makes more sense), but they rejected that, although for a strange reason. Also, it is clear that they see Link as a male character and there is nothing wrong with that. They never promised anything and everyone got got caught up into the rumors just to get disappointed for no reason. This is such a non issue that it is quite baffling how many posts this thread has.

 

[Alienous]

I don't understand the NEED to have a female Link. They considered it making Zelda the lead character (which makes more sense), but they rejected that, although for a strange reason. Also, it is clear that they see Link as a male character and there is nothing wrong with that. They never promised anything and everyone got got caught up into the rumors just to get disappointed for no reason

There is no need. It's just that when confronted Nintendo hasn't had a compelling reason why not to do it, which fuels the idea that it should be done.

Link as a character seemingly allows for that variation. They've taken him in a lot of directions. And just like being left handed was once a core characteristic of the character, it is no longer. So why can't the character be female? Why, in a series that encourages you to adventure through Link ('What's your name?') is the character always male? In a franchise with such a great proportion of female fans?

If they had a compelling reason people wouldn't be taking them to task over it as much.

 

[Malcolm9]

Their reasoning is they see him as a male character, they just went about it in a roundabout way. They should have just said that, rather than half assing the logic behind it.

 

[Mugen08]

Their reasoning is they see him as a male character, they just went about it in a roundabout way. They should have just said that, rather than half assing the logic behind it.

Yeah, this ^

 

[Shahadan]

There is no need. It's just that when confronted Nintendo hasn't had a compelling reason why not to do it, which fuels the idea that it should be done.

Not only that's a dumb reason, they have politely said to everyone to fuck off multiple times. Maybe people should begin to understand.

 

[Galactic Fork]

First off, it was an illustration, not a story. And secondly, yes, it is quite possible for a creator to publish a work online and not really wanting any opinion or criticism with it. Sometimes, there's just something we'd like to make because it's gnawing at our minds and won't stop until we make it. Then we put it online because a) we want easy access to it anytime, anywhere and art sites like dA or ArtStation is just convenient, b) we want a record of the progress we're making, or c) we just want to show it to people. We don't necessarily need any reaction to it; if artists want crits on a particular work, they usually specifically ask for it.

Illustration, sorry. I didn't necessarily say put it online, I said give it to people to [See], so only (c) applies. I don't understand showing something and expecting them to shut up about it. But OK. Fine.

And I said when they do it "because it doesn't jive with what they want" and offered more context by giving my personal experience of when people do this and it becomes annoying. And even then I never said you don't have the right to do that. Me saying it's petulant =/= me saying you shouldn't do it. You yourself said, people can criticize others; I was criticizing the action but nowhere did I say it should be stopped. That's you interpreting it that way.

I agreed that you didn't say "shouldn't be allowed" but I disagree that saying it's petulant =/= you saying one shouldn't do it. That's kinda what criticizing is. Expressing that a person or people shouldn't do a certain thing, or at least do something else instead. Anyway, it's not even that you're criticizing the opinion, but the very act of criticizing. Anyway, we're getting into semantics here.

 

[SpaceCadetKeon]

A nice solution would be to find female clothes that Link could wear, as Link doesn't look overly male or female, so could be left open to the player's choice of how they dress.

Yesss. If I can't choose Link's gender, then I'll settle for making the pretty boy even prettier. >:3

Spoiler

A girl can dream.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

Excuse me? What? Where did you get that idea?

There's 50 pages of people saying Nintendo "should" and "need" to do this. Not everyone, of course, but it's quite a hostile tone towards Nintendo in a lot of posts.

It's their IP and their character. Anyone who thinks Nintendo has any obligation to change Link's gender for no reason has to accept that. The hostility some people have had in this thread works against the acceptance of female characters.

 

[Alienous]

There's 50 pages of people saying Nintendo "should" and "need" to do this. Not everyone, of course, but it's quite a hostile tone towards Nintendo in a lot of posts.

It's their IP and their character. Anyone who thinks Nintendo has any obligation to change Link's gender for no reason has to accept that. The hostility some people have had in this thread works against the acceptance of female characters.

The hostility is appropriate.

Their stated reasons have been ridiculous, which connotes that they don't see their actual reasons as defendable, which suggests that maybe they should have the option for a female Link.

People shouldn't just accept "but the Triforce would be out of balance". They can do what they want (nobody is calling for the game to be banned), and equally they can be rightfully criticised for their weakly justified decision.

 

[Strictly]

I think it would have been cool to have a lady link, but if they don't want to do it that's fine. Their artistic prerogative should be respected.

 

[MaxwellGT2000]

"What would Link do while Zelda is fighting?" I dunno man, getting into deep shit and needing to be rescued by the GODDESS of GODDAMN WISDOM?

And there would be literally nothing lost if took your really androgynous male character and just made slight alterations to female.... what's this shit about balance of the triforce? You mean the triforce made by 3 goddesses? THAT FUCKING REPRESENT THREE FEMALES? I really hope these are just some weak ass arguments because English isn't his first language and he doesn't know how to properly explain what he means, but if he really means all this I've really lost a lot of respect for him... The Zelda fanbase has a lot of female gamers, even I'd like to play female Link as a guy, who wouldn't want to be video game Xena? Because that's what boomerang wielding female Link would be!

It just seems to imply that either Zelda is the only one that could be kidnapped, because the big male Link totally couldn't or that female Link somehow throws off the "balance" of two males and one female... but before I get too upset about this I'd like to see video footage of the interview or something since where he clarifies, because I know from reading many "interviews" in the past with Nintendo higher ups they can just be people twisting words sometimes. This is my warning before I go full torches and pitchforks *goes back to playing Triforce Heroes with my crossdressing Link*

 

[sammyCYBORG]

The hostility is appropriate.

Their stated reasons have been ridiculous, which connotes that they don't see their actual reasons as defendable, which suggests that maybe they should have the option for a female Link.

People shouldn't just accept "but the Triforce would be out of balance". They can do what they want (nobody is calling for the game to be banned), and equally they can be rightfully criticised for their weakly justified decision.

I think their real reasoning is "Link is a male character and we want to keep it that way". I agree the Triforce thing is stupid, but people won't drop the issue, which is why I think they came up with something stupid like that.

You're right they would be criticised if they just said they want to keep Link male, but that's the root of the problem, I think. That's a perfectly valid reason for not changing the gender. They shouldn't be afraid of saying that to avoid claims they're sexist.

 

[BGBW]

A nice solution would be to find female clothes that Link could wear, as Link doesn't look overly male or female, so could be left open to the player's choice of how they dress.

If anything it makes him look more manly.

 

[Alienous]

I think their real reasoning is "Link is a male character and we want to keep it that way". I agree the Triforce thing is stupid, but people won't drop the issue, which is why I think they came up with something stupid like that.

You're right they would be criticised if they just said they want to keep Link male, but that's the root of the problem, I think. That's a perfectly valid reason for not changing the gender. They shouldn't be afraid of saying that to avoid claims they're sexist.

That is a 'valid' reason. It isn't a good one, though. "Why do you want to keep Link male? You haven't kept him left-handed. You haven't kept him in a green tunic".

It's fine that they chose what they did, but their stated reasons are just excuses. To your sexism point, yeah, it leaves room to interpret their actual reasons as more malign. 'Maybe they don't view women as adventurers?', for example. I said earlier in the thread that I don't think it's malicious, but I know it isn't because of the Triforce.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

That is a 'valid' reason. It isn't a good one, though. "Why do you want to keep Link male? You haven't kept him left-handed. You haven't kept him in a green tunic".

It's fine that they chose what they did, but their stated reasons are just excuses. To your sexism point, yeah, it leaves room to interpret their actual reasons as more malign. 'Maybe they don't view women as adventurers?', for example. I said earlier in the thread that I don't think it's malicious, but I know it isn't because of the Triforce.

Changing clothes colour or which hand he holds his sword is a much smaller change than someone's gender.

But yeah they should have been upfront or just not addressed it, the Triforce thing is always going to be picked apart.

Like I said, I agree Nintendo need to make games with female characters, just leave Mario, Zelda, etc alone. They did it with Samus so now they can do it with another IP.

 

[Ammogeddon]

Is this really an important issue?

I believe in fair representation of females in video games and the industry as a whole. This is something that is already being positively driven forward and many games feature female protagonists or the option to select one. I feel this is more about Nintendo's arguably odd response than it is about the actual demand for a female avatar in Zelda.

It's admirable and right to point out inequality but I feel this topic trivialises the issue and has a detrimental effect.

 

[May16]

But the balance of the Triforce, you guys.
Won't somebody please balance the Triforce?

 

[pfr]

If Nintendo don't do a controllable Princess Zelda game, then a new IP would be good. Look at Horizon Dawn Zero, that looks epic and the main character is really well done from the footage so far.

Why is that character female by the way? What is the developers reasoning behind that? I DEMAND to know.

 

[BBboy20]

Not only that's a dumb reason, they have politely said to everyone to fuck off multiple times. Maybe people should begin to understand.

You can't tell others to fuck off when it comes to public work. You're just going to have to deal with the naysayers.

Is this really an important issue?

I believe in fair representation of females in video games and the industry as a whole. This is something that is already being positively driven forward and many games feature female protagonists or the option to select one. I feel this is more about Nintendo's arguably odd response than it is about the actual demand for a female avatar in Zelda.

It's admirable and right to point out inequality but I feel this topic trivializes the issue and has a detrimental effect.

Because a lot of men believe that they should have all the fun; it's a human tradition passed down since the beginning of time. The reason there is hostility is because plenty believe Aunoma's words stems from such a subconscious philosophy. Given how this industry keeps treating anybody who doesn't have a majority skin color from the land they reside in and also is not male and straight, even in 2016, like second rate citizens or worst, this voice will not give him, Nintendo, or this industry the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Neuromancer]

“The Triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female. If we made Link a female we thought that would mess with the balance of the Triforce. That’s why we decided not to do it.”

They do know the Triforce isn't real... Right?

 

[system11]

Their reasoning is they see him as a male character, they just went about it in a roundabout way. They should have just said that, rather than half assing the logic behind it.

Sane post in crazy topic spotted.

 

[Thud]

I respect their direction with this game.

The argument against it is pretty weak, but it's not like that's the definitive version. Obviously they know people like Linkle so it's possible in the future.

A legend of ganon game where you play as zelda and where link has a role as well is something worth looking into. And a legend of link game featuring ganon.

 

[KahooTs]

You can't tell others to fuck off when it comes to public work. You're just going to have to deal with the naysayers.

They can, they have and they just did, in a polite round-about way. And now they've gone back to making the game they want in the manner they want. And when the next naysayer pops up they'll almost certainly do the same again.

 

[zoukka]

They want to stick to the classic premise of "strength = masculinity". And a boy being the vessel that needs to endure physical hardship and danger. That's their choice and it's a valid one.

Not to say the game wouldn't work with a female link.

 

[Fliesen]

They want to stick to the classic premise of "strength = masculinity". And a boy being the vessel that needs to endure physical hardship and danger. That's their choice and it's a valid one.

Not to say the game wouldn't work with a female link.

But the Triforce of Strength is held by Ganondorf.

Link's is the Triforce of Courage.

i do love them worrying about "balancing" something that consists of 3 parts.
Making Link's gender user selectable would actually create a better balance than a 2 : 1 skew.

 

[Haruka]

“The Triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female. If we made Link a female we thought that would mess with the balance of the Triforce. That’s why we decided not to do it.”

By Divine Decree, in the name of Din, Farore, and Nayru, under the Law of the Triforce.

Amen.

 

[zoukka]

But the Triforce of Strength is held by Ganondorf.

Link's is the Triforce of Courage.

i do love them worrying about "balancing" something that consists of 3 parts.
Making Link's gender user selectable would actually create a better balance than a 2 : 1 skew.

Yeah I meant Courage. And I guess ganon is the most masculine character out of all three of them.

 

[Cyneck]

Whatever happened to artistic freedom?

It's their game, not yours. Sure it's disappointing to hear but you people are blowing this way out of proportion.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Their reasoning is they see him as a male character, they just went about it in a roundabout way. They should have just said that, rather than half assing the logic behind it.

Yup. I honestly think throwing in the bit about Zelda not being playable is what's going to get people riled up, especially when Sheik, Tetra or even Zelda herself in Spirit Tracks show Zelda doesn't have to be in a passive role.

To me it was either a female Link option or a more characterized male-only Link with Zelda or Impa playable at some point. Shooting down the latter option instead of leaving it open is going to grate with people, unless they intend to integrate Linkle into the mainline series (which I'd be all for honestly).

 

[……forgetit]

Yup. I honestly think throwing in the bit about Zelda not being playable is what's going to get people riled up, especially when Sheik, Tetra or even Zelda herself in Spirit Tracks show Zelda doesn't have to be in a passive role.

To me it was either a female Link option or a more characterized male-only Link with Zelda or Impa playable at some point. Shooting down the latter option instead of leaving it open is going to grate with people, unless they intend to integrate Linkle into the mainline series (which I'd be all for honestly).

Linkle is a one off joke character in a spin off game, I doubt we'll see her again. I don't think they're shooting down Zelda as playable, just putting a pin in it because this game was already well into development when the idea came up.

 

[im_dany]

Why is people so obsessed with Link not being female but noone cares if Zelda isn't a male? As a male I find it pretty offensive they've always had a female giving her name to the game.

Spoiler

just kidding, I think it's just illogic complaining if an artist has decided his character to be a male instead of female

 

[FyreWulff]

Whatever happened to artistic freedom?

It's their game, not yours. Sure it's disappointing to hear but you people are blowing this way out of proportion.

Artistic freedom exists in a world where critique of said artistic decisions also exist.

Nintendo is free to make Zelda as they see fit. They also are free to be critiqued about how they make Zelda.

 

[LastCupOfSorrow]

Some of you are so negative because they didn't cater to your exact personal opinion. Crazy to me.

 

[Malcolm9]

Why is that character female by the way? What is the developers reasoning behind that? I DEMAND to know.

Because it's a new IP, not a 30 year old game series that has had a male lead character since day one.

Some may call Link an avatar but I think most see him as a character with personality, and is well established.

 

[olimpia84]

Clearly Nintendo sees Link as a male character for this game. Why can't some of you get over this and move on?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Linkle is a one off joke character in a spin off game, I doubt we'll see her again. I don't think they're shooting down Zelda as playable, just putting a pin in it because this game was already well into development when the idea came up.

Didn't Aonuma say earlier today that Linkle was made as a direct response to people wanting a female Link? I could see her coming back honestly, if somewhat reworked to make her more in-line with regular Link.

I agree that could very well be the case about his Zelda comments, but it still reads a bit poorly.

 

[El Topo]

Artistic freedom exists in a world where critique of said artistic decisions also exist.

Nintendo is free to make Zelda as they see fit. They also are free to be critiqued about how they make Zelda.

Remember when everyone was totally fine with George Lucas changing the movies to fit his vision?

 

[Galactic Fork]

Why is people so obsessed with Link not being female but noone cares if Zelda isn't a male? As a male I find it pretty offensive they've always had a female giving her name to the game.

Spoiler

just kidding, I think it's just illogic complaining if an artist has decided his character to be a male instead of female

It's not that simple. The assorted Links are a part of a series of characters throughout time in that world. Not the same character, so with each new one, the question becomes why is it always a boy? It's never been about "Keeping Link male." It's why is every Hero of that world a boy (capital H as in the Role all the Links fill)? Yes it's their choice, but we are free to critique them for their choice. As for Zelda, it's a family name given to the first princess. The 2 incarnations not part of the royal family weren't even named Zelda. And yes, since they aren't even required to be royalty, the question of whether or not an incarnation can be born male is a good one. Especially with the high percentage of Zeldas needing to be rescued by Link.

 

[Fliesen]

Some of you are so negative because they didn't cater to your exact personal opinion. Crazy to me.

Well, in a series of roughly 20-or-so games, it would be nice for Nintendo to cater to another audience, just once.

But it wouldn't actually be catering, since adding the ability to play as "female Link" - an entirely silent protagonist - wouldn't take anything away from people who prefer to play male Link.

It's not that simple. The assorted Links are a part of a series of characters throughout time in that world. Not the same character, so with each new one, the question becomes why is it always a boy? It's never been about "Keeping Link male." It's why is every Hero of that world a boy (capital H as in the Role all the Links fill)? Yes it's their choice, but we are free to critique them for their choice. As for Zelda, it's a family name given to the first princess. The 2 incarnations not part of the royal family weren't even named Zelda. And yes, since they aren't even required to be royalty, the question of whether or not an incarnation can be born male is a good one. Especially with the high percentage of Zeldas needing to be rescued by Link.

Aye. The King of Hyrule can be "reborn" / "astrally projected" as a freaking BOAT. But Link needs to be reborn as a boy, no matter what. :/

Clearly Nintendo sees Link as a male character for this game. Why can't some of you get over this and move on?

because if people were to just "(shut up), get over it and move on" Nintendo would keep 'seeing' (lol) Link as a male character.

 

[correojon]

you realise that Hero is gendered as well, the female form is Heroine.

What you mentioned aren't even strong character traits all but 2 of them can be universally translated to knight and or chivalry.
I don't understand why Samus keeps being mentioned in these threads continuously when there is no reincarnation in play there, at least go with a series that'd make it conceivable to gender swap the other way around.
Not to mention that none of the strong personality traits couldn't be applied to a woman in the first place.

And before you ask I played the games in German for years and it makes no difference to me.

That was just one example, the argument behind it is that Link is always, directly or indirectly refferred to in masculine form and Zelda in feminine form. Their genders are firmly established. I don´t speak German so I don´t know if articles, nouns and adjectives are affected by genre as much as in spanish, but I´m talking about my personal experience here.

About the personality traits, I wasn´t saying that they couldn´t be applied to a female, what I was saying is that those describe who Link is, in essence: Link is a character with an established personality, not a blank slate, changing him into a girl wouldn´t be changing just his gender it would change the character into someone different. It´s one of his defining characteristics and one of the most important because it affects directly how he looks. In the oldest Zelda games some of these traits could not be expressed, but "the guy with a sword and shield" was already a consistent definition of Link.

Using the excuse of reincarnation...really? In an universe where Samus has been infected by an alien lifeform and has fused with her suit (Metroid Fusion) there wouldn´t be any way we could possibly justify changing her to a male? I demand that in the next Metroid (if we ever get one) the infection has gone bad and she has to put her conscience into a cybernetic body like in Xenoblade X, so at least I get the option to choose a male Samus. Just kidding, I would still choose a female Samus and whine about the mere idea of changing her genre being stupid.

 

[Kawika]

This isn't a good defense of Nintendo, tbh. There are games with actual stories and complex narratives and choice making like, i.e Mass Effect, that let you choose which gender you'll play as, and the world didn't end.

The thing is, yeah, they don't have "lore" impediments to do it, but fine, it's their decision. However the reasons for not doing are really, really dumb. Make me remember some SE dev talk where they questioned women, not that long ago.

I am not defending Nintendo, I am stating the way they are.

 

[Kawika]

You can make a similar list for every company. And not to mention they've toyed with the idea of Galaxy 3 and it hasn't even been that long since the second installment. There are people that would love a new take over SMG3 also. Mother 3 is more possible than ever right now, and an actual account system for NX hasn't been ruled out since they've overhauled their account system this year. Did they not also toy with 2D metroid this generation? I swear I saw concept art floating around. A lot of this list seems possible in the near future or are at least ideas they're always thinking about. Nintendo is quite stubborn, but they can surprise in the greatest ways from time to time

Still No Mother 3 announcement
Not getting SMG3 this gen. One can only hope for a HD port
There still isn't a 2D Metroid.
If your Wii U breaks you can't buy a new one and re-download your games unless you contact Nintendo.

Nintendo is incredibly stubborn. If they choose to do a Female lead in the Zelda franchise, it will be because of their vision not that of the fans.

Sorry if I replied to two separate posts after one another, I don't know how to link them in one post. Mods please be kind.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

They want to stick to the classic premise of "strength = masculinity". And a boy being the vessel that needs to endure physical hardship and danger. That's their choice and it's a valid one.

Not to say the game wouldn't work with a female link.

If they want to kept the classic premise of «courage = masculinity», is not a valid one, is sexist as fuck.

 

[DistortionOfReality]

Surely the correct PR line to have taken would be

'Because our franchise and creative vision has Link being male'

Or am I oversimplifying this? Why does Link have to be female in a series where he has always historically been male? And I'm not talking about Zelda needing to be a 'damsel', hell this entry looks to lift the WW storyline quite heavily, and Tetra/Zelda was great in that.

 

[IronicSonic]

Well, the updated response is even worse. Aonuma shut up

 

[OldmanAndroid]

Why isn't there this hard of a push for a female mario, or a female God of War?

 

[DannyDanger]

just use your imagination, pretend link is a girl, problem solved

same gameplay either way

 

[Bakkus]

Things Link Can Be:

- A child
- A teenager
- Blond-haired
- Brown-haired
- Pink-haired
- Split into four color-coded versions of himself
- Partners with two other seemingly-identical but also color-coded Links
- A train conductor
- A rabbit
- A wolf
- A plant-thing
- A fish-man
- A rock-man
- A god (when?)
- An octorok (when?)
- A moblin (when?)
- A like-like (when?)
- A ghost inhabiting a suit of armor that teaches his future incarnation skills
- Partners with an alternate-timeline wolf version of himself

Things Link Can Never Be Because It Would Destroy The Whole Character, Nay, The Franchise:

- A woman

How is any of this comparable with the request to have an option at the start of the game to choose gender? This is a dumb argument.

 

[Spiritwalker]

Strange comments from such a creative developer. You really can't come up with something for Link to do in this scenario? What?