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[SpaceCadetKeon]

I dunno about the rest of this debate, but the gender of the Avatar in recent games have gameplay relevance because it changes who you can have as a husband or wife. So it might not be a good example here.

Regardless, in terms of the overall plot, the changes are negligible at best. Besides, I'm not someone who believes that one gender absolutely must play differently from the other in order to justify a male/female option.

You're reading wrong. They decided against making a Female Link because it messes with the Trifoce.

They decided against making a Zelda Game because they don't know (yet) what they would do with Link.

Still a really lame excuse. But whatever. I'd be down for a game starring Zelda too, but if them not knowing what to do with Link is seriously the only thing that's keeping it from happening, then I suspect that it will never come to pass.

Even if Nintendo wanted this, do you think that they'd have courage?

I dunno. They sure had the courage to go through with Federation Force.

 

[balgajo]

I dunno. They sure had the courage to go through with Federation Force.

Now you got me....XD

 

[Pyrrhus]

You...realize you can still have all of that stuff with a female Link right? And only one of those scenarios would truly be considered queer even!

The characterization would need to be entirely different if the character were female. Groose is not going to treat a female Link the same way he'd treat a male romantic rival. Even if she were a lesbian and a romantic rival, he wouldn't be able to get away with treating a girl the way he treats male Link. Similarly, the entire way the Gerudo would interact with Link would change based on Link's gender, and likely so would the interactions with the Gorons. I expect there would be something of an unintentional ick factor in the interactions with Ganondorf that isn't present with a male Link as well.(Remember Puppet Zelda? Or when he belts Link in the face in WW? Or the way he leers at Link?) And in the case of the Link and Zelda romance, they're heavily implied to have founded the Hyrule dynasty of later games. Further, their later reincarnations still echo that romantic bond. To avoid all of that, they'd very likely need to make the story more nondescript so that the script would apply equally well to either gender. Which strips the interactions of a lot of warmth and flavor.

Even leaving aside issues of story and characterization, to do a female character justice would be a metric ass ton of extra work requiring them to write, animate, and code two separate, disparate scripts for most major story beats and create a second set of animations, textures, and models for all the gear. What is being asked for is not simple on several different levels.

I'd rather they just keep doing a specific story with a specific character than wander into that morass. And they apparently feel that way as well.

I've said this before but I would love a Zelda game that takes place in the Downfall Timeline. I mean it's already a part of the lore!
"This timeline is an alternate continuity in which Link is defeated by Ganondorf during the final battle of "Ocarina of Time". After this, Ganondorf obtains all three pieces of the Triforce. Led by Princess Zelda, the people of Hyrule manage to seal Ganon and the Triforce in the Sacred Realm."

It seems pretty apparent to me that this latest game is set in the Downfall timeline. Hyrule is in ruins, Zelda has reconstituted a replacement Link, the Master Sword is a rusted wreck and Hyrule Castle looks like a Hellmouth from the very outset of the game.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think the GameSpot quote is exactly the opposite...zelda CANNOT be the protagonist of a Zelda game. It has to be Link.

To me it reads like they've never seriously considered Zelda for the lead before and when they did they immediately hit some roadblock and quickly decided to revert back to the bread and butter of the series as far as leads go. There are plenty of things that Link can do within the world if Zelda is the lead. That's something people in this thread have touched on. I think it's more of a matter of whether they'll start seriously thinking about it now presumably before the next Zelda game has really entered any serious stages of development instead of waiting until it has. Because obviously Zelda being the lead would mean that there would have to be something different about the gameplay instead of her playing like a reskinned Link.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I'll probably be in the minority, but to me, Link will always be a dude. I've been playing Zelda since I was a kid and Link has always been a guy. i know he's not the most complex character, but that's part of the reason I like him. Link is just a genuinely good dude, out there fucking shit up to save the world. Could you imagine someone fairy waking you up, and telling you your talking tree dad wants to see you? And then your tree dad dies and you have to travel across the land helping this girl who thinks this green booger dude is going to destroy the world? I'd go back to sleep, but not Link, he's a freaking hero.

Seriously though, I like my Link as a dude. We have a girl in the series, it so happens to be the girl the series is named for. I want a freaking Zelda game starring Zelda. I think a cool idea just from looking at game play for BotW, is having Zelda be the one who wakes up Link. I know that still might be the case, but imagine you play as her and your mission is to complete the triforce, but you have to fight bad guys and then you go on a mission to find the famous hero of time or whatever. I wouldn't want it to be just Zelda with a sword, but it would be cool if she used magic, or maybe got some Sheikah training and you got play as Sheik. I think it has potential and I'd honestly rather play as her than a female Link. Let Zelda do the saving for a damn change.

You are most definitely not in the minority

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

There's always slight variations in personality, but there is a degree of invariability in the reincarnations of the "Hylian hero" like the green tunic and the blonde hair.

There are also specific mentions of male pronouns in the prophetic texts throughout the series. In Link to the Past:

If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear...and he alone must face the person who began the Great Cataclysm

I think that Link and Zelda are invariably male and female. Ganon, however, might be open for options.

How does the original in japanese read, because gendered pronouns are handled very differently between english and japanese.

 

[Galactic Fork]

There haven't been many differences to link's looks aside the transition from older gen to newer gen. His hair style from SNES to N64 and him being cel shaded, but that's a style change. Familiarity adds a lot actually, especially to these nintendo games. It's obvious most of us grew up with Nintendo, and familiarity breeds nostalgia. These Zelda games are all kind of nostalgic in their own way, which I think, is one of the reasons they are so good.

More to the point on why a male line of Links, well because as it has been seen, there have only been male reincarnations. Link does have a motivation though, he does have a history. You can read the very small comic from Hyrule Hystoria, and SS makes what his goals are. Whether they've expressed them in every game is different, but it's not when calamity strikes that a Link is called. Zelda calls on Link whenever she needs him. He is, pretty much, her knight that is destined to serve her. That's his role, badass triforce wielder of courage and Zelda protector of the universe.

Yes there have only been male incarnations so far, but that can change in the future. that's the whole point of the conversation. Everybody is well aware. that's not the reason not to change, that's a reason TO change.

Each Link has their own motivations and backstories, that's what I was saying. They are all different people. SS's Link didn't go off to face pirates to save his sister and get caught up in rescuing the world. Twighlight Princess's Link didn't grow up in a small village raised by forest people, feeling left out because he would never have a fairy familiar. I'm not one of the people who think Links are just reflections of the player, I think all the Links are their own people. Individuals so there is no one true Link. So with the way it's set up, some Links in history could be born a girl.

I can see your argument as to why he's supposed to be a player avatar and isn't a real character or whatever, but he is supposed to be a real character. Making Link female opens another can of worms, where if Link shows up in anything (Mario Kart/Smash) he has to have a female counterpart too. But most importantly, above all that, is that Link is Link. I get that Nintendo opened the floodgates themselves, and they've done this all to themselves, but I don't think they wanted it to go in this direction and didn't anticipate this. I don't think it has anything to do with sexism, just that Nintendo views Link as an individual character and other people do to.

1) I don't think the Links are supposed to be Player Avatar. (Edit--actually the makers have said they're supposed to be, but I still see them as individual characters themselves).
2) Oh no, Adding a female Link to Smash or Mario Kart. I mean it's not like there's not a Toon Link, or young Link...
As for the most importantly, Link isn't just Link. he's a lot of different Links. That's my point.

More than 40% of gaf faced this question with rejection. We are talking about one of the most progressist forum on internet and the place where most of voices about female link came. Because in the end it has nothing to do with progressism, it's about changing a important trait of a character that a lot of people like.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1153952
Gamexplain made a video about it today on youtube. Look at the comments and see what the real mass really thinks about it.

Even if Nintendo wanted this, do you think that they'd have courage?

It was a binary question. I wonder how it'd be if it was Yes, no, or don't care, which is equivalent to "Okay with". Besides, it was still almost 60% in favor.

And seriously? Youtube comments? YOUTUBE comments? wow.

 

[blankempathy]

The characterization would need to be entirely different if the character were female. Groose is not going to treat a female Link the same way he'd treat a male romantic rival. Even if she were a lesbian and a romantic rival, he wouldn't be able to get away with treating a girl the way he treats male Link. Similarly, the entire way the Gerudo would interact with Link would change based on Link's gender, and likely so would the interactions with the Gorons. I expect there would be something of an unintentional ick factor in the interactions with Ganondorf that isn't present with a male Link as well.(Remember Puppet Zelda? Or when he belts Link in the face in WW? Or the way he leers at Link?) And in the case of the Link and Zelda romance, they're heavily implied to have founded the Hyrule dynasty of later games. Further, their later reincarnations still echo that romantic bond. To avoid all of that, they'd very likely need to make the story more nondescript so that the script would apply equally well to either gender. Which strips the interactions of a lot of warmth and flavor.

Even leaving aside issues of story and characterization, to do a female character justice would be a metric ass ton of extra work requiring them to write, animate, and code two separate, disparate scripts for most major story beats and create a second set of animations, textures, and models for all the gear. What is being asked for is not simple on several different levels.

I'd rather they just keep doing a specific story with a specific character than wander into that morass. And they apparently feel that way as well.

See what you want is actual effort for developers to actually include the subtle differences in being a male and female. Some people simply want a genderswap and call it a day. Its lazy and I hate that. I would love it if more games explored the subtle or large differences in playing through a game as a male or female. if games can be a learning tool why not use it as a way to give insight into being a female or male and a different perspective?

 

[Exokell]

Lmao they don't want little kids playing as female Link hooking up with Zelda.

 

[Pyrrhus]

How does the original in japanese read, because gendered pronouns are handled very differently between english and japanese.

He's referred to as a shounen in the manual of the original game. And all the key art is pretty obviously male.

I think that Link and Zelda are invariably male and female. Ganon, however, might be open for options.

Ganon's even less open than Link and Zelda. He's literally the same immortal figure in every game. He literally will not die because he has the Triforce of Power. Even reduced to ash he'll eventually return. The best they can do is seal him away and hope he goes completely catatonic nuts after centuries in the void.

 

[SpaceCadetKeon]

Lmao they don't want little kids playing as female Link hooking up with Zelda.

Nintendo never intended to make any form of social commentary with the launch of Breath of the Wild.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Nintendo never intended to make any form of social commentary with the launch of Breath of the Wild.

You often make social commentary without even trying. it's called existing in a society.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

He's referred to as a shounen in the manual of the original game. And all the key art is pretty obviously male.

I'm talking about exactly the passage you quoted.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I'm talking about exactly the passage you quoted.

I guess I don't understand where the ambiguity comes in for you. Shounen generally means young boy or lad. If they were talking about a girl they'd say shoujo or onna no ko or something like that. Japanese doesn't use pronouns like English does but they used a pretty definitive noun in his initial debut. And approved translations in various Western languages that explicitly used male pronouns. Their intent is more than clear.

 

[Kageshinzo]

What is this insistence that makers of creative works are above critique or to call them out on something is petulant? Where does this come from? Do you just like every work of fiction no matter what and insist nobody ever complain? Nintendo chose to make a world with a reincarnation and or "chosen one" setup and determined it MUST be a boy. So yes, I am free to criticize that. And I will. And hey, you can criticize me, and I can respond. I'm sorry if you feel Nintendo is above us little nothings having an opinion about their opus of wondertude, but I don't.

You think I'm saying it to defend Nintendo? Uh, no. I am saying it as a creator myself, albeit just a hobbyist for now. I sometimes write stories but my forte is more in art/illustration. You won't believe the "criticisms" of "lol, that's such an impractical character design" or "that should have X amount of Y because that would make it more cool" without knowing that I already have an established lore and reason why I designed it that way. It gets really really annoying and unless that person commissioned me for the piece, I consider their criticism unsolicited. Technical crits are okay and appreciated; but to criticize something you created although that's how you intended it to be at the beginning? That gets real annoying annoying real fast.

But then again, I am very much against the "Death of the Author" concept. I believe that the creator's intention/interpretations of their works overrides any interpretation other people may have. So I may be biased here. *shrug*

 

[Mouse Cop]

Yes there have only been male incarnations so far, but that can change in the future. that's the whole point of the conversation. Everybody is is well aware. that's not the reason not to change, that's a reason TO change.

Each Link has their own motivations and backstories, that's what I was saying. They are all different people. SS's Link didn't go off to face pirates to save his sister and get caught up in rescuing the world. Twighlight Princess's Link didn't grow up in a small village raised by forest people, feeling left out because he would never have a fairy familiar. I'm not one of the people who think Links are just reflections of the player, I think all the Links are their own people. Individuals so there is no one true Link. So with the way it's set up, some Links in history could be born a girl.


1) I don't think the Links are supposed to be Player Avatar.
2) Oh no, Adding a female Link to Smash or Mario Kart. I mean it's not like there's not a Toon Link, or young Link...
As for the most importantly, Link isn't just Link. he's a lot of different Links. That's my point.



It was a binary question. I wonder how it'd be if it was Yes, no, or don't care, which is equivalent to "Okay with". Besides, it was still almost 60% in favor.

And seriously? Youtube comments? YOUTUBE comments? wow.

You know, I never thought of it that way, and you make valid points. I'm sorry for the generalization for the Link being an avatar thing, as I know some others have used that as an excuse for a female link. The only thing I can really think of against having a female Link, is that it would change what they perceive to be an iconic character's..I guess kind of character? Personally, I think they are reluctant to change their mascot character and never intend to change his gender, unless they succumb to the pressure of the fans. You make a great point that each Link is different and unique, with the sole purpose of saving Hyrule and being a knight of Zelda. Still not on board, because it'll crush my dreams of a Zelda-led Zelda, but I can't really make more of an argument as to why there can't be an option for it in the future, other than of course, my personal bias in the situation.

 

[dity]

This is laughably bad reasoning.

 

[Verano]

Lmao they don't want little kids playing as female Link hooking up with Zelda.

???
why force a male character to be female just to have intimate relations with another female from the series?

 

[Japanmanx3]

I'm still shocked that Nintendo took the time to listen to the playerbase, discuss the issue, come to a conclusion based on their assessment, give a reason for that conclusion, offer an alternate solution...and people STILL complain.

Nintendo went 99% of the way with this issue, they did everything but say "We are making a Female Link." and the same people are still angry they didn't get their way. At this point, it's turned into entitlement.

I agree. Linkle was made and poorly received. Aunoma clearly wants to use his character the way he intends. Even the VO for this game directly identifies Link by his name. He is no longer that avatar or construct (and honestly he hasn't been that since Ocarina to me...or ever...but surely in since being included in other titles like SSB and the like). His name is Link and they are definitely grounding him as a male from hereforth. Does Zelda deserve her own Super Princess Peach type of centralized game? Sure. But The Legend of Zelda has always started with Link. There is a lore and a connection throughout and it established all the main Characters the way they were meant.

This all feels like Phantom Menace reaction levels of dissatisfaction. Except Aunoma isn't Lucas.

Spoiler

Yeah I think Jar Jar should be a Sith Lord and the community talked Lucas out of his original vision.

I support his creative direction and integrity to his work.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I guess I don't understand where the ambiguity comes in for you. Shounen generally means young boy or lad. If they were talking about a girl they'd say shoujo or onna no ko or something like that. Japanese doesn't use pronouns like English does but they used a pretty definitive noun in his initial debut. And approved translations in various Western languages that explicitly used male pronouns. Their intent is more than clear.

I'm not talking about how Link is referred to but the hero in the prophecy you quoted to make a point.

 

[Galactic Fork]

You think I'm saying it to defend Nintendo? Uh, no. I am saying it as a creator myself, albeit just a hobbyist for now. I sometimes write stories but my forte is more in art/illustration. You won't believe the "criticisms" of "lol, that's such an impractical character design" or "that should have X amount of Y because that would make it more cool" without knowing that I already have an established lore and reason why I designed it that way. It gets really really annoying and unless that person commissioned me for the piece, I consider their criticism unsolicited. Technical crits are okay and appreciated; but to criticize something you created although that's how you intended it to be at the beginning? That gets real annoying annoying real fast.

But then again, I am very much against the "Death of the Author" concept. I believe that the creator's intention/interpretations of their works overrides any interpretation other people may have. So I may be biased here. *shrug*

Here's the thing. A creator is free to do what they want with their story, just as readers, players, viewers, etc are free to give criticism... I'm sorry but I laughed at you thinking it matters whether criticism is solicited or not. Who gave you the right to tell others whether or not to have an opinion? And why the hell would you want somebody to read something without expressing an opinion? I'm not saying you have to listen to all criticism, but expecting people not to give it is just ridiculous. (yes that's what you're doing when you bring up "unsolicited" criticism).

Edit- By "listen to all criticism" I meant make changes or adhere or whatever.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Lmao they don't want little kids playing as female Link hooking up with Zelda.

As if male Link ever got sum with Zelda as it is. The last time anything was shown and not sorta implied was a behind-the-curtains peck on the cheek in the ending of Zelda II back in 1988!

Male Link is never getting in Zelda's pants and neither is the nonexistant female variation.

 

[Real Hero]

I find it weird people are bothered by the fact a character that has existed for a long time hasn't been suddenly made into a female. They never promised they would do that so why expect it?

 

[Kageshinzo]

I'm not saying you have to listen to all criticism, but expecting people not to give it is just ridiculous. (yes that's what you're doing when you bring up "unsolicited".

I call it "unsolicited" because that is what it is. Literally. I did not ask for criticisms and yet they gave it. If, say, you said to a friend, just as a matter of fact, that you're having this little problem (and it might even be a rhetorical), and they gave an advice even though you did not ask for one, would you say that's not "unsolicited"? You can say "Uh thanks?" or you can disregard it. The fact still remains that it's unsolicited.

And where did I not say that you don't have the right to criticize the creator? I only said that such unsolicited criticism, speaking from the view of a creator myself (and I am not even speaking for Nintendo/Aonuma here), can get annoying. I never said you do not have the right to give one.

 

[Palculator]

As if male Link ever got sum with Zelda as it is. The last time anything was shown and not sorta implied was a behind-the-curtains peck on the cheek in the ending of Zelda II back in 1988!

Link gets his action elsewhere.

 

[The Dink]

It seems pretty apparent to me that this latest game is set in the Downfall timeline. Hyrule is in ruins, Zelda has reconstituted a replacement Link, the Master Sword is a rusted wreck and Hyrule Castle looks like a Hellmouth from the very outset of the game.

Right, but we also have items describing "The Great Sea" and Koroks (so far exclusive to Wind Waker) which would place it in the Adult Link Timeline. Besides, the game I was describing would take place right after OoT and would feature that Zelda. Get some of that sweet ninja Sheik action going! And it would solve the issue with what to do with Link. Since he's...you know...defeated.

The characterization would need to be entirely different if the character were female. Groose is not going to treat a female Link the same way he'd treat a male romantic rival. Even if she were a lesbian and a romantic rival, he wouldn't be able to get away with treating a girl the way he treats male Link. Similarly, the entire way the Gerudo would interact with Link would change based on Link's gender, and likely so would the interactions with the Gorons. I expect there would be something of an unintentional ick factor in the interactions with Ganondorf that isn't present with a male Link as well.(Remember Puppet Zelda? Or when he belts Link in the face in WW? Or the way he leers at Link?) And in the case of the Link and Zelda romance, they're heavily implied to have founded the Hyrule dynasty of later games. Further, their later reincarnations still echo that romantic bond. To avoid all of that, they'd very likely need to make the story more nondescript so that the script would apply equally well to either gender. Which strips the interactions of a lot of warmth and flavor.

Then make the interactions with Groose a little different? It actually wouldn't be THAT different. The Gerudos had plenty of reasons for arresting Link in OoT as well so again, change a text box here and there. I still stand by the Gorons being fine with a female Link. I mean what, they call her sister instead of brother? Heck they could still call her brother. Ganon's interactions are fine as well. We're supposed to dislike the villain after all. And we've already had Zelda games where Link has had different romantic options than Zelda (TP) so it would be easy to create romantic options for a male/female Link.

Also, I need to point out: we are NOT talking about inserting a different gender into older games and their characters but rather discussing adding a gender option into a future title in the series. Using those games' stories as a base for potential future titles seems disingenuous. The Links of each game are different afterall right? No one is trying to change the series' past. I do appreciate your passion on this subject though.

Even leaving aside issues of story and characterization, to do a female character justice would be a metric ass ton of extra work requiring them to write, animate, and code two separate, disparate scripts for most major story beats and create a second set of animations, textures, and models for all the gear. What is being asked for is not simple on several different levels.

Bioware says hi? As does Dragon's Dogma, Dark Souls, etc, etc. Nintendo has more than enough resources to make such a thing happen for their flagship title.

I'd rather they just keep doing a specific story with a specific character than wander into that morass. And they apparently feel that way as well.

And as creators they have that right. Their reasoning for their passing on the idea was definitely ill-worded though. Which is the main reason this topic exists.

You are most definitely not in the minority

Yeah. Any visit to GameFAQs or YouTube will confirm this.

I find it weird people are bothered by the fact a character that has existed for a long time hasn't been suddenly made into a female. They never promised they would do that so why expect it?

I mean if you're curious why they feel that way you could always...read their posts?

 

[Richie]

As if male Link ever got sum with Zelda as it is. The last time anything was shown and not sorta implied was a behind-the-curtains peck on the cheek in the ending of Zelda II back in 1988!

Male Link is never getting in Zelda's pants and neither is the nonexistant female variation.

Naw Alex, my man Link's got a handful of lovely gestures from lady Zelda, from a heartfelt hug in Spirit Track to a smooch in the Oracle games...and then Skyward Sword implied a hell of a lot, sure, but they went so far as to create a "Romance" trailer for it! Coupled with that beautifully sad scene where

Spoiler

Zelda's imprisoned and Link sheds tears desperately trying, in vain, to set her free...Not to mention her words, "I'm still your Zelda"...

. Funnily enough, that scene's also a good point of Link not just being a blank slate.

This post isn't really attempting to discredit a female Link so much as taking advantage of any opportunity to gush about Link and Zelda shipping. I'm a sucker for it.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I call it "unsolicited" because that is what it is. Literally. I did not ask for criticisms and yet they gave it. If, say, you said to a friend, just as a matter of fact, that you're having this little problem (and it might even be a rhetorical), and they gave an advice even though you did not ask for one, would you say that's not "unsolicited"? You can say "Uh thanks?" or you can disregard it. The fact still remains that it's unsolicited.

We're not talking about you telling people a problem, we're talking about you presumably giving your creative work to people to read. That's different. Saying something is unsolicited in this context of your creative work, implies you not wanting other people's opinions. Just like I might not want somebody's advice... you're saying you don't want their opinions. Why would you even want somebody to read something of yours and not want them to express their opinions? You want them to just read it and shut up about it? That's my point.

And where did I not say that you don't have the right to criticize the creator? I only said that such unsolicited criticism, speaking from the view of a creator myself (and I am not even speaking for Nintendo/Aonuma here), can get annoying. I never said you do not have the right to give one.

Well you referred to criticizing the creator as petulant. So while not downright saying people shouldn't be allowed, you certainly think people shouldn't do it.

"It's their story and its their concept, and for people to whine and criticize the creators for their concept because it doesn't jive with what they want is, frankly, being petulant,"

Seems like an apt interpretation.

 

[Kageshinzo]

We're not talking about you telling people a problem, we're talking about you presumably giving your creative work to people to read. That's different. Saying something is unsolicited in this context of your creative work, implies you not wanting other people's opinions. Just like I might not want somebody's advice... you're saying you don't want their opinions. Why would you even want somebody to read something of yours and not want them to express their opinions? You want them to just read it and shut up about it? That's my point.

First off, it was an illustration, not a story. And secondly, yes, it is quite possible for a creator to publish a work online and not really wanting any opinion or criticism with it. Sometimes, there's just something we'd like to make because it's gnawing at our minds and won't stop until we make it. Then we put it online because a) we want easy access to it anytime, anywhere and art sites like dA or ArtStation is just convenient, b) we want a record of the progress we're making, or c) we just want to show it to people. We don't necessarily need any reaction to it; if artists want crits on a particular work, they usually specifically ask for it.

Well you referred to criticizing the creator as petulant. So while not downright saying people shouldn't be allowed, you certainly think people shouldn't do it.

"It's their story and its their concept, and for people to whine and criticize the creators for their concept because it doesn't jive with what they want is, frankly, being petulant,"

Seems like an apt interpretation.

And I said when they do it "because it doesn't jive with what they want" and offered more context by giving my personal experience of when people do this and it becomes annoying. And even then I never said you don't have the right to do that. Me saying it's petulant =/= me saying you shouldn't do it. You yourself said, people can criticize others; I was criticizing the action but nowhere did I say it should be stopped. That's you interpreting it that way.

 

[Mugen08]

Disappointed by Nintendo's argumentation. Link should be a fairly easy character to replace and I am inclined to think that it should even be in Nintendo's interest to give their future audience in particular the option.

 

[Chao]

Leonardo Da'Vinci did not painted the Mona Lisa because he was feeling to show his art to the world. He painted because Francesco del Giocondo PAYED for a portraid of his wife.

And yes, when you pay for a comission you make what the people paying wants to pay for, whatever he wanted different.

Making games is like doing art comissions, you change what you do to sell more. Or else every game would be WAY CRAZIER than they are. Aonuma is not Anna Anthropy doing games for lesbian dominatrixes ... he is doing Zelda to SELL. And as remembered, the majority of gamers ARE women, so it is idiot not to appeal to this marketing even if just a little

So you want a focus tested Zelda, awesome!

And women being the majority of gamers is not relevant, women are the majority of everything.

The Legend of Zelda has always been a favorite for female gamers, its only now that they are demanding the protagonist to be changed into a woman for some strange reason.

What's up now, women are not comfortable playing with penis Link anymore?

 

[Niwa]

In the end, let them decide on their own if Link is a girl or a boy, you can't force them to it…
How would you feel if a story you have in mind is rewritten by the fans and destroy the product the dev believed in? One day we will see a Zelda based on a female character, and I hope it will be a decision by the game designer, not the fans forcing them to do so.

I'm all up for a female protag anytime, but not for the sake of having one, but for the fact that it was in mind all along when the game was created.

 

[Rich!]

Disappointed by Nintendo's argumentation. Link should be a fairly easy character to replace and I am inclined to think that it should even be in Nintendo's interest to give their future audience in particular the option.

Why on earth should Nintendo replace one of their most iconic and long lasting characters just to appease a vocal subset of people online?

I honestly do not get it. Either way I'm glad they didn't back down and in fact doubled down on their decision.

 

[Movalpolos]

That update doesn't really help.
Two people of the same gender apparently would upset the balance of the Triforce then?

 

[Malcolm9]

Disappointed by Nintendo's argumentation. Link should be a fairly easy character to replace and I am inclined to think that it should even be in Nintendo's interest to give their future audience in particular the option.

But he's not otherwise they would have done it.

The reasoning was weak but basically they see Link as male, as they always have done. Saying that I think some just want Link to be female just to see the reaction, rather than being a benefit of the game.

I personally think using Princess Zelda is a much better idea then gender swapping Link, let her kick butt instead.

 

[Mugen08]

Why on earth should Nintendo replace one of their most iconic and long lasting characters just to appease a vocal subset of people online?

I honestly do not get it. Either way I'm glad they didn't back down and in fact doubled down on their decision.

I am not saying you should not be allowed to play as a dude, I am saying that I thought it would be in Nintendo's interest to give our kids more options to e.g. play as a girl. I mean there was someone who modded in a female lead in Ocarina of Time for their daughter as she wondered why she couldn't play as a girl. It is just odd considering Zelda should be on Nintendo's frontline attracting new players.

 

[dangeraaron10]

I would have been down for being able to be Zelda or Link in Breath of the Wild. That's a very strange reasoning but I won't lose sleep over it. Sucks for those who wanted FemLink but this is nothing Nintendo ever promised or eluded to.

But yes, the reasoning was QUITE backwards. But they are the devs and we are the players.

 

[correojon]

There's always slight variations in personality, but there is a degree of invariability in the reincarnations of the "Hylian hero" like the green tunic and the blonde hair.

There are also specific mentions of male pronouns in the prophetic texts throughout the series. In Link to the Past:


I think that Link and Zelda are invariably male and female. Ganon, however, might be open for options.

Now, imagine playing Zelda games for years in Spanish. In Spanish, genre is embedded in the language very strongly. Articles and adjectives have a genre, so "el Héroe del Tiempo" and "la Heroína del Tiempo" have some gender implications "The Hero of Time" lacks. There are many references like this in all games that continuously strengthen the idea that Link is a dude and Zelda is a girl. I´m sure it´ll be the same in other languages like French. Even when playing in English I mentally and unwillingly translate and adapt all those sentences with a genre.

Apart from that Link is a established character for me with strong personality traits (likes to sleep, noble, always willing to help others, brave, friendly, a bit goofy...), not a blank slate. He´s one of my favorite characters so I wouldn´t want him to be changed into something else, just as I don´t want Samus to be changed into a man and why I don´t accept the girl in Other M to be Samus, that one is someone else.

 

[ramparter]

People are making a big deal of it, I would welcome it and actually expected it after Linkle but I dont mind it a bit.

 

[Earthpainting]

They considered it, and ultimately decided against it. Not the outcome I necessarily wanted, but it's the one we'll have to accept. While I wasn't a huge fan of a gender choice per se, I would like one of the next Links/leading characters in the series to be female.

I do wonder if Linkle's reception hindered the chances of a female main character though. Nintendo adding her left like they were throwing the fans a bone, and testing the waters, but her reception was pretty abysmal in general. Hopefully it didn't poison the well too much.

 

[Japanmanx3]

Disappointed by Nintendo's argumentation. Link should be a fairly easy character to replace and I am inclined to think that it should even be in Nintendo's interest to give their future audience in particular the option.

I am not saying you should not be allowed to play as a dude, I am saying that I thought it would be in Nintendo's interest to give our kids more options to e.g. play as a girl. I mean there was someone who modded in a female lead in Ocarina of Time for their daughter as she wondered why she couldn't play as a girl. It is just odd considering Zelda should be on Nintendo's frontline attracting new players.

This is asinine honestly. Relying on Nintendo to be the crux of what character represents your child in a game is not how this works. They gave a cohesive idea which leads to a story which leads to a game. At least for TLoZ. That's a 30+ year precedent. That's what they want. And that's ok. It's there property to do what they want with it. A guy modded the game? Fantastic. So what? If that's your argument then please make a defense for every other Nintendo character, nay video game character, aimed at young kids...

 

[Mugen08]

But he's not otherwise they would have done it.

The reasoning was weak but basically they see Link as male, as they always have done. Saying that I think some just want Link to be female just to see the reaction, rather than being a benefit of the game.

I personally think using Princess Zelda is a much better idea then gender swapping Link, let her kick butt instead.

I disagree in that Link and Zelda in many games are so young that they are more portrayed as close friends. Princess Zelda as lead I think would be equally fine but you see Nintendo's stone age-reasoning for why not. I don't think it should be creating any big reactions to give players more character options. My feeling after finishing Skyward Sword was that I loved it but also thought how much more magical it would've been for me at the age of when I was hypnotized by Ocarina of Time. Then I have more and more come to think about why not give the next generations of gamers more options on this if it makes them happier?

 

[sammyCYBORG]

It's sad that so many people seem to think Nintendo should be bullied into changing the gender of one of gaming's most iconic characters.

There are more female characters than ever in gaming right now and each E3 press conference had a big female presence. Why not be happy about that rather than angry about this?

I agree that Nintendo should make a game with a female lead. Make it a new IP.

 

[Palculator]

Making games is like doing art comissions, you change what you do to sell more. Or else every game would be WAY CRAZIER than they are. Aonuma is not Anna Anthropy doing games for lesbian dominatrixes ... he is doing Zelda to SELL. And as remembered, the majority of gamers ARE women, so it is idiot not to appeal to this marketing even if just a little

No, plenty of games are obviously fine catering to a small niche and aren't reaching for mass appeal or maximised sales. Profit is a factor because people need to eat, but he logic of "They should do X because it would sell better" is flawed because then this game shouldn't have been made at all and instead they should've created a shitty mobile strategy game or a MOBA to make a few millions a day -- money is the only reason games get made after all and the latter examples make more of it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Now, imagine playing Zelda games for years in Spanish. In Spanish, genre is embedded in the language very strongly. Articles and adjectives have a genre, so "el Héroe del Tiempo" and "la Heroína del Tiempo" have some gender implications "The Hero of Time" lacks. There are many references like this in all games that continuously strengthen the idea that Link is a dude and Zelda is a girl. I´m sure it´ll be the same in other languages like French. Even when playing in English I mentally and unwillingly translate and adapt all those sentences with a genre.

Apart from that Link is a established character for me with strong personality traits (likes to sleep, noble, always willing to help others, brave, friendly, a bit goofy...), not a blank slate. He´s one of my favorite characters so I wouldn´t want him to be changed into something else, just as I don´t want Samus to be changed into a man and why I don´t accept the girl in Other M to be Samus, that one is someone else.

you realise that Hero is gendered as well, the female form is Heroine.

What you mentioned aren't even strong character traits all but 2 of them can be universally translated to knight and or chivalry.
I don't understand why Samus keeps being mentioned in these threads continuously when there is no reincarnation in play there, at least go with a series that'd make it conceivable to gender swap the other way around.
Not to mention that none of the strong personality traits couldn't be applied to a woman in the first place.

And before you ask I played the games in German for years and it makes no difference to me.

 

[kinoki]

It's interesting to read these comments and Kojima's comments on the role of gender in games. Japanese games seem to have a very skewed outlook on the gender issue. I believe it stems from the problem of them not getting the problem. I don't know if it's just naïve or willful ignorance. Hopefully they'll come around. They have to.

 

[Malcolm9]

If Nintendo don't do a controllable Princess Zelda game, then a new IP would be good. Look at Horizon Dawn Zero, that looks epic and the main character is really well done from the footage so far.

 

[AaronB]

I think the best way to handle it would be to have the player switch between Zelda and Link as the playable character. Changing like that might reduce immersion, but I think it's the best fit for keeping their vision while still having a female lead. It would also expand the puzzle possibilities if they have different abilities.

 

[Mugen08]

This is asinine honestly. Relying on Nintendo to be the crux of what character represents your child in a game is not how this works. They gave a cohesive idea which leads to a story which leads to a game. At least for TLoZ. That's a 30+ year precedent. That's what they want. And that's ok. It's there property to do what they want with it. A guy modded the game? Fantastic. So what? If that's your argument then please make a defense for every other Nintendo character, nay video game character, aimed at young kids...

Look, I am not super-upset with not having the option of customizing my character in Breath of the Wind. I do however think it would cause Nintendo little problem to offer it. We are talking about mute often child-age characters whose visualized romantic involvement is so minimal that it could almost be omitted completely (not always, but in many cases). They could keep everything as is and also offer the choice of playing as a female lead helping her friend Princess Zelda, or make the latter to be the heroine as they thought would be better. It would have been better if Nintendo just said "we want the player character to be a dude" rather than cooking up some convoluted excuse that sounds as ancient as "but what would Link do then?".

 

[SpaceCadetKeon]

It's sad that so many people seem to think Nintendo should be bullied into changing the gender of one of gaming's most iconic characters.

Excuse me? What? Where did you get that idea?