Mr. Giggles
Member
Typical left wing propaganda.
"Facts"
Pffffffttttttt
"Facts"
Pffffffttttttt
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Study finds Australian gun laws stopped mass shootings and suicides
- Thread starter soxinthebox
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Regulation and licensing in Denmark is much harsher than in the states. Just because you got your hands on a semi-automatic rifle and a pistol through proper hunting and sporting licenses doesn't Denmark's regulation isn't much stricter than America's incredibly loose gun laws where you can get your hands on fully automatic assault rifles with much less work and inspection etc.
pseudocaesar
Member
Ehhhh you can't really apply the terms left wing/right wing to Australian politics. Sure Labor leans to the left, and Liberal lean to the right, but they're practically the same. Nowhere near as dichotomous as the Democrats and Republicans.
That and defying the laws of gravity, always being upside down and never falling up onto space is some sort of witchcraft
humansarehorses
Member
You can't draw any reasonable results from looking at a single country.
Hasn't study design 101 taught you the purpose of a valid control group?
I never said anything to the contrary.
I was just saying you're ignorant if you don't think there's millions of semi automatic weapon in civilian hands.
There's almost 80 million weapons out in civilian homes in Europe.
they also have giant, murderous rabbits
That's nice. But the Australian Constitution stipulates that the government must pay just compensation for any resumed private property.
It worked out the AUS govt spent nearly $760 per weapon. (In 1996 FFS)
Is that enough for you
lastplayed
Member
TheRealTalker
Banned
Seriously. You don't need a gun there. Everything else will kill you instead.
CheDominik
Member
If you don't see the difference in regulatios between having to store said firearms in a safe and open/concealed carry states you're being dense on purpose.
And owning firearms in Germany is pretty much a rural thing tied to shooting club culture. I grew up in the city and most people lin the bigger cities ook at those people as people living in the past.
humansarehorses
Member
As I said, you need a good counterfactual to find a causal effect. This is decades upon decades of philosophy of science speaking.
It's exactly why control groups are used in medical research: to see what would have happened if the treatment wasn't applied.
Was the USA a mirror image prior to the Australian gun laws passing? I doubt it. Income distribution alone would provide a convincing reason why they weren't.
The reason I make the comparison is subtle but obvious (to me anyway).
Do you think it would've made a difference if the Orlando shooter was required to store his firearm in a safe? It didn't make a difference to Anders Being Breivik.
And your little anecdotal evidence there is cute, I went to Germany last year competing and there was people from all levels of society participating there. Germany also have among the highest gun ownership in Europe, so something tells me you're talking with some very select people there.
There are many variables to a nation's homicide and suicide rate than just access to guns. I live in a state with one of the stricter gun regulations in the US (California) and I am very supportive of our gun regulations, but I also understand that they are not as impactful as people make them out to be
Look for example at the call for universal background checks. OF COURSE we should have background checks, however they wouldn't be as impactful as some people are making them out to be. The last mass shooting that might have actually been prevented through a background check was the Virginia Tech shooting, which was back in 2007. Most of the mass shootings that have occurred in the US would not have been prevented by having a mere background check
Now again, I support gun control, but the overall homicide rate is not driven by gun laws alone
If you're selective enough you can make that argument in either direction.
For example, Netherlands' gun ownership rate is about half of what the UK's is, and their homicide rate is also lower than the UK's. If you're going to compare numbers between nations, you can make the argument go in either direction, depending on which countries you choose to include
There is no such thing as a control group in large-scale sociological studies. No two countries are "identical" from an experimental control phase.
So you get as close as you can.
Might have made a difference if someone with a history of domestic abuse wasn't allowed to legally own said firearm. What are the laws on that in Denmark?
How do you explain the sharp drop of homicide+suicide and complete eradication of mass shootings since '96 then?
Thank you for making my point. That shows exactly what I'm saying. There's no direct corelation.
If you've been charged and found guilty with violence of any kind you can't legally own a firearm in Denmark.
Iorv3th
Member
I think that some police departments already do it but you get like 100$ per firearm. So you can bring in stuff that is worth less than that and might not even work and get 100$ and keep your better stuff.
SolicitorPirate
Member
The Howard government also enacted Work Choices. Yes, Labor and Liberal aren't as divided as the Dems and the GOP, but they aren't so indistinguishable that we can't label one left and one right
Hickbilly Deluxe
Banned
Thats great and all, but in the US gun buyback programs have offered between 50 and 100 dollars per firearm. So unless they pass a buyback law stating firearms turned in actually have to be paid for at market value, it wont work nearly as well as people seem to think.
Hilariously, people already have abused the programs and brought in home built shotguns made from 15 dollars worth of parts from the hardware store and pocketed the difference. US buyback programs thus far have been a joke.
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
Negatory, the only answer to too many guns is more guns.
CheDominik
Member
It's very much a rural thing. Look at that heatmap. http://www.zeit.de/2014/04/waffen-deutschland
And it's tied to shooting club culture. Notice how there are fewer firarms in the GDR? Said clubs were banned there.
The last comment was based on my personal bias, but come on:
That is a given, you're closer to nature, it's more likely you're going to be hunting which by far account for the most guns in Europe.
Saying people is living in the past as some kind of insult is a little funny though, I have a feeling city people are sheltered from so much I grew up with living "in the past" and "in the rurals".
Your picture there is very stereotypical though. The guys I competed with were just normal looking people (shocking I know).
humansarehorses
Member
As close as you can doesn't mean to chuck out control groups entirely and look at a single country only because there are plenty of confounding variables like improvements in living standards.
If you can't use countries because there's no valid control group then you could look for similar municipalities or other geographical areas which can provide a good counterfactual. If you can't do that but you still want to produce research, poke the obvious holes in your paper because it's a bad paper.
And sociology is a bad science.
The only reason to provide an alternative explanation is to poke a hole in the paper's research method.
I already managed that: increases in living standards can easily be thought of as a confounding variable.
That's more than enough reason to question the results. The only way to find a real causal effect is, again, through good research design.
Safes are just one part of the many regulations being asked for. Exhaustive background checks and purchase delays, prevent private sales. That could have very well prevented his legal purchase of the Sig.
I mean I'm happy you're such a responsible toy owner, but over in the states we have a lot of fucking blood flowing
Lol this is a garbage stat. Sweden has tons of firearms, but I've never met a single person with a gun that isn't clearly meant for either sports or hunting (mostly hunting). We're not talking ARs and handguns here. And you need all the right licenses and storage lockers etc. in order to acquire even these weapons that are mostly no threat to be used in mass shootings.
According to this source, there were 872 serious crimes with firearms reported between 2000 and 2010, and in only 19 cases the gun(s) used were obtained by legal means. Basically gun violence in Sweden mostly happens in criminal gangs that illegally import their guns from other countries.
No denying most of the guns are classical bolt action and double barrel shotguns, but you can legally own an AR-15 in Sweden, you can legally own handguns. I know because I go there several times a year hunting and competing in sports.
Also your stat is perfectly fine, it proves that people that legally acquired the firearms are not a problem statistically speaking.
Exhaustive background checks, purchase delay and no private sales didn't prevent Anders Being Breivik either, and it wouldn't have prevented the Orlando shooter either. Prior to the shooting he was spotless.
And here you hit a key factor and unravel your entire argument with regard to guns in the USA. Forget AU-style buy-back programs, I'd be THRILLED if we could just get sane licensing and background checks in place.
You're right Australia grew up while America continues to behave like a child and refuse to get with the times.
That's just an alternative solution to the problem, an unfeasible one, at that. Banning guns is a more realistic approach. But it seems you're more concerned to discuss if this research is "legit" or not.
That's not going to happen because of the elephant in the room (not so much?) called the 2nd amendment that makes it a right to Americans, and not a privilege like it is to Europeans.
killamajig
Member
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
"Hey look! They have guns in those countries and they don't have as many murders!"
"Okay, so let's start a discussion about - "
"Nope. They have guns, which negates everyone that says guns kill people!"
"Let's compare those countries to ours in order to - "
"Nope. They have guns. Don't kill people. That means guns are cool."
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Germany,Sweden, etc. have more lax gun laws and you can own more gun varieties than the UK and Australia does, and are still very safe societies. There's more to it than just strict gun laws. IIRC mass shooting incidents were already rare in the UK before we tightened firearms laws, and they are still rare afterwards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Great_Britain
The vast majority of modern incidents were bombings perpetrated by the IRA. There are only 4 mass shootings involving the use of firearms, and one of them happened after our handgun and semi-automatics ban. The 2 incidents in Hungerford and Dunblane were enough for the government to ban first semi-autos, then handguns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Great_Britain
The vast majority of modern incidents were bombings perpetrated by the IRA. There are only 4 mass shootings involving the use of firearms, and one of them happened after our handgun and semi-automatics ban. The 2 incidents in Hungerford and Dunblane were enough for the government to ban first semi-autos, then handguns.
humansarehorses
Member
That's not an alternative solution. It's an alternative explanation.
I am saying that if Australia did not ban guns then death by shooting might still have massively decreased because of higher living standards (which, by no means, is a function of gun laws). With higher living standards, you can reasonably imagine that people have far more to lose and much less to gain by purposefully shooting another individual. Accidental shootings might also be affected because people with higher living standards, many of whom get college degrees, might use guns more responsibly than those with lower living standards.
That's more than enough reason to think their research is bad.
LordRaptor
Member
If there is zero correlation, how do you account for a homicide rate 4 times higher than other similar first world countries?
Americans are just much worse people?
Yes but when you get into those types of guns the regulations and stipulations become pretty strict. Most psychos will not be able to pass everything needed.
You can't use isolated examples such as Breivik to prove stricter gun control isn't helpful. The US have 99 non-Breivik's committing mass-shootings between every 'unstoppable' high-functioning psychopath.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
I spoke to a UK sports shooter recently and when I told him that Germany and Sweden let you have AR-15s and handguns he told me 'damn, I want to move to Sweden now, this country is stupid'. UK firearms holders universally support sane gun control but are universally opposed to gun bans, and they really want their handguns and semi autos back. I've been to a range to shoot .22LR rifles (the only legal semi-autos allowed in the UK) and black powder pistols, and I must admit that shooting firearms on a range is pretty fun. I probably will have problems getting a license though, I have anxiety+depression issues and take meds for them. And I have no problem with this fact.
It's obfuscation not to include the US data isn't it?
USA-
Guns per 100 people: 112.6
Homicides per 100,000 people : 3.9
Significantly more guns and significantly more murders than any of those countries. There is no honest fact/statistic based pro gun argument.
EatinOlives
Member
Which is a failure of an amendment because there's no chance the founding fathers intended the document to become binding to the detriment of the nation as a whole. The constitution is supposed to reflect the national interest, not force a mandate that people blindly adhere to because it's been there for hundreds of years. The latter is no different from religious scripture telling people how to live their lives. Y'know, the complete opposite of what they wanted in the Constitution.
There's a ton of factors, but the heavy hitters:
Poverty
Equality (lack thereof)
Entire political system: Right wing conservativeish in the U.S. and some form of socialism in just about every other first world country.
That's not to say that the current state of gun laws doesn't contribute to gun deaths, it obviously does, but I do think it has hit a critical mass that made it worse, for all data we can gather from other first world countries doesn't show a corelation regardless of how many guns are in private hands.
You're right, I can't, but I can prove (and you helped me there, thank you) that legal privately owned firearms doesn't mean death and carnage like it does in the US.
Also for all intends and purposes there's no difference between owning a bolt action rifle and owning an AR-15 in Sweden. While I do come there as a tourist (Denmark) I have to abide by the exact same rules when I bring my AR-15 as the guy that brings his old mauser bolt action.
how will i defend my family when Zombies come?
I could've included it, but it's an outlier and there's so many things the countries I listed have in common that the U.S. doesn't have.
The U.S. is the odd one out, I could've spend time putting in every European country and it would've been the same general thing as I've provided, and you would still find it useful to include the U.S. that obviously deviates because of a lot other reasons than just "guns".
Mammoth Jones
Member
Suggestions of gun bans is one of the reasons nothing moves politically on these issues. The other more pertanant issue being lobbying/bribery.
It ain't happening in the US in your lifetime or your children's lifetime. No one is gonna voluntarily turn in their guns and the government isn't going to turn 40% of the nation into felons in violation of the law.
The overwhelming majority of assault weapons were not registered as required by law after the safe act in NY. Nothing is done because there's no political will to force the issue as it'd be a shit show.
But sure if things didn't exist so bad people could exploit them to commit atrocities bad things wouldn't happen.
Guns will just attract more zombies...
It ain't happening in the US in your lifetime or your children's lifetime. No one is gonna voluntarily turn in their guns and the government isn't going to turn 40% of the nation into felons in violation of the law.
The overwhelming majority of assault weapons were not registered as required by law after the safe act in NY. Nothing is done because there's no political will to force the issue as it'd be a shit show.
But sure if things didn't exist so bad people could exploit them to commit atrocities bad things wouldn't happen.
Guns will just attract more zombies...
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
They had one in New York, thousands of guns wee turned in if I remember correctly.
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