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[gundamkyoukai]

I'm just frustrated. I don't want to bother with PC gaming again, but it seems I don't have a choice in order to get the experience I want. I'm done venting though.

PC will always be ahead by a good amount .
Consoles will always be mid range if there are lucky once price , TDP and size are a factor .

I don't want an Xbox, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that they have a better plan. At least it appears that way right now.

I really don't see how it's a better plan .

Possibly, I have done it in the past. But I don't think Microsoft will screw up again on the hardware side of things. I don't think they will ever let Sony have the more powerful console ever again. Maybe the same power, but not more powerful. Microsoft just flat out has more money and has learned from their mistakes, hopefully.

Sony will have a more powerful console at least for some period of time.
Same for MS that is how it going to be with the new business model for consoles.

 

[Bruno_Arrais85]

I don't get all this Scorpio will destroy PS4 talk.

By the time Scorpio launches at the end of 2017, PS4 would have sold over 60 million consoles.

No way would you destroy an install base that high, let alone convert anyone from PS4 to Scorpio when all Xbox "exclusives" are already available on 10TF i7 Titan PC's

same opinion here. I can play all the Xbox games on PC now.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I don't get all this Scorpio will destroy PS4 talk.

By the time Scorpio launches at the end of 2017, PS4 would have sold over 60 million consoles.

No way would you destroy an install base that high, let alone convert anyone from PS4 to Scorpio when all Xbox "exclusives" are already available on 10TF i7 Titan PC's

Destroy the console in specs, not numbers sold. Only weirdos give a shit about the number of consoles sold. "hey Johnny, how's Forza Horizon 3?" "it'd be great if MS had sold another 20 million consoles, so it's OK, I guess..."

same opinion here. I can play all the Xbox games on PC now.

Here we go again...

 

[Fredrik]

If Sony release this as the 'slim' it puts the ball squarely back in their court. Then later next year announce the true upgrade.

Heh that would NOT go down well, people were angry enough (rightfully so) to get an upgrade after just 3 years, release a second upgrade a year after the first upgrade would be 10 times worse.

 

[Kukawaki]

Pricing is going to make or break this thing.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I really don't see how it's a better plan .

A 2 generation BC console with a whole PS4 worth of extra clout under the hood?

 

[gatti-man]

same opinion here. I can play all the Xbox games on PC now.

This isn't true and will never be true no matter what MS says. Anyone that thinks this hasn't been paying attention to MSs history and they've already walked back play anywhere before it's even rolled out.

 

[wapplew]

I don't get all this Scorpio will destroy PS4 talk.

By the time Scorpio launches at the end of 2017, PS4 would have sold over 60 million consoles.

No way would you destroy an install base that high, let alone convert anyone from PS4 to Scorpio when all Xbox "exclusives" are already available on 10TF i7 Titan PC's

Destroyed spec wise, 6T>4.2T on paper. Simple math in theory.
It's like saying Vega will destroy Polaris in spec, something that not available until next year is better than something available now.

How will they do in the market is big unknown. Spec is only one factor, we need to know price, timing, games, policy all sort of thing to find out a clearer picture. Like 980ti was the most powerful but not necessary the best selling graphic card.

 

[Shambala]

How are people speaking with such authority on Sony's forward plans when all we have is this SDK internal slide set reference that was leaked info months ago, and no actual discussion from them directly?

And how are people comparing this information to Microsoft's Scorpio announcements?

This is a patently ridiculous comparison to make until Sony actually puts their own cards on the table, and people getting emotionally invested in this in advance of that need to take a breath, and just... wait. Because all we have is speculation and no actual verification of any up to date confirmed plan or intent on their part.

Sheesh, guys.

War it never changes bruh. It has begun again lol

 

[Fredrik]

Specs only matter for multiplats, that's where the difference shows, all multiplats having better performance is obviously great but without solid exclusives too you'd honestly be better off buying a PC.

 

[johnnydrama]

Specs only matter for multiplats, that's where the difference shows, all multiplats having better performance is obviously great but without solid exclusives too you'd honestly be better off buying a PC.

But not everyone wants to build and maintain a PC. You're only looking at things from your point of view.

 

[Conduit]

It's looking like the Xbox Scorpio is going to crush the new PS4 Neo in performance.

Well, Scorpio is basically a next-gen console in terms of power and comes out a year later. Nothing weird.

 

[mrklaw]

PlayStationnhas the sales and the brand value to happily survive against a more powerful bit likely more expensive Scorpio. And the gal isn't *that* big - not sure either console is set up to properly handle 4K, and both will use varying methods of scaling up to 4K (this reconstruction method on neo, maybe dynamic resolution on Xbox because that transfers well to PC).

I'm curious about 'improved GPU'. Will it have VR specific optimisations like Polaris is supposed to have, which could help PSVR even more than the simple extra horsepower would already do?


And what happened to the idea they couldn't do jaguar on finfet because it was originally designed on a planar architecture? Was that BS, did Sony pay a ton of money to get the same shitty CPU reworked on finfet?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Why wouldn't it last long? The purpose of it is to be different than cross-gen, to support multiple platforms for multiple years (longer than they've been supported before) and help ease the transition and bring in people at various pricepoints.

And let's say if it is even the same length as a typical cross-gen period, it'll still be worse than what cross-gen is. It'll be mandated. Developers won't be free to make exclusive Xbox Two games for those years. First party exclusives, that were typically some of the only titles that weren't cross-gen at the beginning of the console's lifecycle won't be free of it either and will have resources split in order to accommodate older consoles.

All in all, making it less worth it to own the new console the first couple of years.

I do do not want a mandated/forward compatibility model like on iOS on consoles... Sony's BC plans and NEO node provisions are exactly what I want.

 

[SgtCobra]

Destroy the console in specs, not numbers sold. Only weirdos give a shit about the number of consoles sold. "hey Johnny, how's Forza Horizon 3?" "it'd be great if MS had sold another 20 million consoles, so it's OK, I guess..."

Ah so people who are interested in the sales aspect of the console industry are weirdos now? Okay.

 

[Panajev2001a]

PlayStationnhas the sales and the brand value to happily survive against a more powerful bit likely more expensive Scorpio. And the gal isn't *that* big - not sure either console is set up to properly handle 4K, and both will use varying methods of scaling up to 4K (this reconstruction method on neo, maybe dynamic resolution on Xbox because that transfers well to PC).

I'm curious about 'improved GPU'. Will it have VR specific optimisations like Polaris is supposed to have, which could help PSVR even more than the simple extra horsepower would already do?


And what happened to the idea they couldn't do jaguar on finfet because it was originally designed on a planar architecture? Was that BS, did Sony pay a ton of money to get the same shitty CPU reworked on finfet?

I think the issue was more redesigning the GPU not the smaller scale by comparison CPU for the new manufacturing process.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Ah so people who are interested in the sales aspect of the console industry are weirdos now? Okay.

When it validates their console brand of choice, yes.

 

[pswii60]

Well, Scorpio is basically a next-gen console in terms of power and comes out a year later. Nothing weird.

Is Neo still coming this year then? I hope so.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

When it validates their console brand of choice, yes.

Fortunately, there are plenty on GAF who are interested in the business side of this industry without resorting to fanboyism.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Possibly, I have done it in the past. But I don't think Microsoft will screw up again on the hardware side of things. I don't think they will ever let Sony have the more powerful console ever again. Maybe the same power, but not more powerful. Microsoft just flat out has more money and has learned from their mistakes, hopefully.

I am glad the money they make on their desktop OS and business office suite as well as Cloud Services could help them destroy their competition in other sectors .

Seriously though, that assumes that they funnel more money in the HW of the Xbox division than what Sony does for theirs or that they feel they need to do that for competitive reasons that threaten their overall business. It also discard the fact that Sony, a hardware focused company, has proven it can make effective and pragmatic choices with their HW designs that can help them get very good returns for their R&D budget while MS only need just as much power as it is necessary for their UWP ecosystem to function.

One reason MS has pushed for a big performance change with Scorpio is that IMHO they are increasing the level of HW abstraction the programmers see when coding for their consoles to make sure Xbox is just another UWP target rather than a complex additional ecosystem you need to work into.

I think Xbox will become MS's Steam Machine with Steam OS replaced by Windows 10 + console GUI and Steam Store replaced by Windows Store.

 

[Thug Waffle]

Yikes, rule #1 of Powerpoints. Don't just flood slides with text.

Sometimes these kinds of presentations are intended to be distributed physically - in addition to the powerpoint projection.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Fortunately, there are plenty on GAF who are interested in the business side of this industry without resorting to fanboyism.

There are indeed, myself included. The xbox one disaster being one of the most interesting subjects in years.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Well, Scorpio is basically a next-gen console in terms of power and comes out a year later. Nothing weird.

Agree with this, although as a next gen step, I feel it is probably the least impressive so far. Well, comparatively speaking.

 

[TH-Work]

It's looking like the Xbox Scorpio is going to crush the new PS4 Neo in performance.

I have both a PS4 and Xbox One, and I might switch over to making the Xbone my main console (right now it's PS4 as my main), just so I can stay in the same ecosystem once the new and more powerful Scorpio comes out. I always go with the more powerful system every generation.

From now on Microsoft will make sure that they will never again have only the second most powerful concole on the market! All the bad press about XBox One is only capable of 30Fps and 900p output alone hurted the sales massively in my opinion! No gamer wants the second best console, especially not kids or teenagers. No one is talking about the second best console, only the first place counts And when Scorpio releases, from then Microsoft will have never again the second best console on the Market

Everyone who says that it's not important to have the most powerful console on the market is lying to himself in my opinion

 

[mrklaw]

I am glad the money they make on their desktop OS and business office suite as well as Cloud Services could help them destroy their competition in other sectors .

Seriously though, that assumes that they funnel more money in the HW of the Xbox division than what Sony does for theirs or that they feel they need to do that for competitive reasons that threaten their overall business. It also discard the fact that Sony, a hardware focused company, has proven it can make effective and pragmatic choices with their HW designs that can help them get very good returns for their R&D budget while MS only need just as much power as it is necessary for their UWP ecosystem to function.

One reason MS has pushed for a big performance change with Scorpio is that IMHO they are increasing the level of HW abstraction the programmers see when coding for their consoles to make sure Xbox is just another UWP target rather than a complex additional ecosystem you need to work into.

I think Xbox will become MS's Steam Machine with Steam OS replaced by Windows 10 + console GUI and Steam Store replaced by Windows Store.

I agree. We often get 'oh MS has more money', but we also have to recognise that those purse strings are controlled by a much larger company that often changes strategy depending how the wind is blowing. They're full force behind UWP right now, but they will expect a certain amount of traction in the next few years to justify keeping that approach and continuing investing in it. If they try and relaunch windows mobile and it fails, or the windows store doesn't get a foothold on PC, then they might not consider it worth continuing heavy investment in Xbox. The upside is that by being on an x86 architecture, updated hardware is 'relatively' low cost to produce so they could continue to bring out new xboxes without breaking the bank, especially if gold subs and MAU is high.

The counterpoint to that is that now Sony are also on a similar architecture which makes it difficult to have another Xbox 360 moment with Sony picking an esoteric arch. They have to go off-sync like with Scorpio to get a head start, but that'll also allow Sony to do the same in a few years.

Continuous small leapfrogging of each other is a good way to actually neutralise any power differences as people can just wait for the next machine for their preferred company - and continued BC plus increased digital purchases means people will become invested in their current console and have a vested interest in staying in that ecosystem. It's basically really bad timing to be behind in this cycle if they go incremental, assuming both companies build out a continuous ecosystem, the clear market leader will tend to snowball.

I think the issue was more redesigning the GPU not the smaller scale by comparison CPU for the new manufacturing process.

Ah, so they were almost required to move to Polaris with the die shrink due to cost but jaguar was doable?

 

[Bits N Pieces]

I don't get all this Scorpio will destroy PS4 talk.

By the time Scorpio launches at the end of 2017, PS4 would have sold over 60 million consoles.

No way would you destroy an install base that high, let alone convert anyone from PS4 to Scorpio when all Xbox "exclusives" are already available on 10TF i7 Titan PC's

PS4 is a Beast.

 

[Monty Mole]

From now on Microsoft will make sure that they will never again have only the second most powerful concole on the market! All the bad press about XBox One is only capable of 30Fps and 900p output alone hurted the sales massively in my opinion! No gamer wants the second best console, especially not kids or teenagers. No one is talking about the second best console, only the first place counts And when Scorpio releases, from then Microsoft will have never again the second best console on the Market

Everyone who says that it's not important to have the most powerful console on the market is lying to himself in my opinion

If Scorpio is significantly more expensive than Neo though (it's bound to be), then that adds a different dimension to your argument. Also Xbox was clearly more powerful than PS2, but PS2 reigned supreme due to its existing momentum - PS4 is in a similar position.

 

[DarkNorm]

Scorpio is Microsoft's last throw of the dice and its gonna cost a lot of money for regular gamers to jump on board. A lot!!!

There seems to be this new buzz around the power of hardware but aren't we all more interested in software? If the majority of games are developed for mass market and the mass market wants stable 1080p and 60 FPS then the Neo will give you that everytime. And it will give it to you at half the price Scorpio will.

4K is all the buzz right now but if we are honest, it's at least 5 to 6 years away from becoming a dominant force in the average home. When it is close to being a market big enough to tap into you can bet Sony will launch the PS5 with a console more powerful than the Scorpio.

Microsoft spend too much time reacting and not enough time developing games.

 

[mrklaw]

From now on Microsoft will make sure that they will never again have only the second most powerful concole on the market! All the bad press about XBox One is only capable of 30Fps and 900p output alone hurted the sales massively in my opinion! No gamer wants the second best console, especially not kids or teenagers. No one is talking about the second best console, only the first place counts And when Scorpio releases, from then Microsoft will have never again the second best console on the Market

Everyone who says that it's not important to have the most powerful console on the market is lying to himself in my opinion

That comes across so adorably that I can't dislike it

But it is a poor argument. Power doesn't sell in a vacuum. PlayStation has marketed itself as being a powerful console in the past (remember the spoiler tactics of 'wait for ps2' when dreamcast launched)? But it also has the brand. It came back from a shocking launch to beat Xbox 360 in most international markets despite being expensive and a pita to program for. Personally I think the power of Ps4 only matters to a few. To most, it was bought for a brand they trust and prefer, at a significantly lower price than the competition, at the same time as the competition rather than 12-18 months later, and riding the wave of 'for the players' messaging from Sony which took perfect advantage of the PR fuck ups from MS around online activation, no trade ins etc.

 

[Sjefen]

I need Neo this year, make it happen Sony.

 

[Gunslinger]

Based on the information what you think the price for neo may be?

 

[Brad Grenz]

Power did and does matter.

However, I feel like much of the disappointment and debates this generation comes from the fact that neither console was able to consistently hit 1080p. I mean, I bought a 1080p TV in 2009, so a late 2013 console being unable to hit native 1080p was and is definitely disappointing.

The vast, vast majority of PS4 games are native 1080p.

Re: Christian's leaks:

No, bullshit. MS isn't stupid enough to have been "caught off guard" twice in one console gen."

That and there's no fucking way they could get a Slim model ready that quick. Sounds like fanboy wish-listing.

Being caught off guard is historically something of a Microsoft specialty, actually.

That said, I don't think they had no SLim planned, but it's easy for me to believe it was fast-tracked and their presentation focusing on 4K and HDR were directly a response to an anticipated PS4K reveal. Given how MS have done slim reveals in the past having no availability until August for the S, and an even longer wait for the low priced versions is very suspicious.

 

[Putty]

Fortunately, there are plenty on GAF who are interested in the business side of this industry without resorting to fanboyism.

Thank you.

 

[RibMan]

And now we know the PowerPoint format of SIE.

Destroy the console in specs, not numbers sold. Only weirdos give a shit about the number of consoles sold. "hey Johnny, how's Forza Horizon 3?" "it'd be great if MS had sold another 20 million consoles, so it's OK, I guess..."



Here we go again...

I couldn't have said it any better. Number of hours spent, the fun factor of individual software titles, brightness calibrations before the main menu, and the number of times the controller was moved from the coffee table to the couch should be used to determine the marketplace success of a physical product.

 

[Jumeira]

This isn't nowhere near the upgrade id thought NEO would receive. Will be an easy wait for Scorpio.

I don't get all this Scorpio will destroy PS4 talk.

By the time Scorpio launches at the end of 2017, PS4 would have sold over 60 million consoles.

No way would you destroy an install base that high, let alone convert anyone from PS4 to Scorpio when all Xbox "exclusives" are already available on 10TF i7 Titan PC's

Scorpio will have the best looking multiplats by a significant margin, exclusives won't matter too much in that regard.
PC has always been an option through the life of every console but hasn't historically impacted console purchases and that's not going to change here. Majority of gamers want consoles and will see Scorpio as the best place for VR and multiplats. It's not going to take over the PS4 but I do see it (especially with these specs) making a large dent into Sony's sales moving forward if it's priced correctly. Will also tee up MS future consoles better than X1 ever could.

Given how MS have done slim reveals in the past having no availability until August for the S, and an even longer wait for the low priced versions is very suspicious.

No it's not. what was wrong with Slim reveal? These things take a long time to put together plan and design. There's nothing reactionary to Slim, its upgrades and it's controller tweaks. Absurd to even think so.

 

[wapplew]

Based on the information what you think the price for neo may be?

Higher than a normal PS4, from Mr House own word.

 

[mabec]

HDD: Same as original PlayStation®4

No SATA 3 support then. No SSD full support then?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Scorpio makes little sense.

It only makes little sense to people batting for the other team.

 

[onQ123]

Destroyed spec wise, 6T>4.2T on paper. Simple math in theory.
It's like saying Vega will destroy Polaris in spec, something that not available until next year is better than something available now.

How will they do in the market is big unknown. Spec is only one factor, we need to know price, timing, games, policy all sort of thing to find out a clearer picture. Like 980ti was the most powerful but not necessary the best selling graphic card.

How we know Microsoft isn't being shady & using a GPU that's capable of half-precision floating points & using the half-precision numbers?

They could be doing the same thing as Sony but using a Polaris GPU with 24 CUs clocked to 1000Mhz that would be 3tflops full-precision & 6tflops half-precision.

also using 64MB of embedded ram by having double the chips & a higher clock speed will also get the bandwidth close to 320GB/s if they are pulling the same stunt they did with the Xbox One by adding the embedded ram speed with the main memory speed.



I'm woke!


PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops half-precision nice try Microsoft you almost got me

 

[wapplew]

HDD: Same as original PlayStation®4

No SATA 3 support then. No SSD full support then?

That's the biggest oversight I think. I'll pay good money for faster loading Bloodborne or SFV, higher priority than say...60fps...maybe equal priority.
Ok, maybe 60fps first, faster loading second.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

I don't want an Xbox, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that they have a better plan. At least it appears that way right now.

They actually have the very same plan. The basic idea behind Neo und Scorpio is basically the same: Offer a beefed up SKU with 4k capabilities which has to share its games library with the weaker predecessors.

There are only two major differences:

1) The amount of freedom / instructions what devs are allowed to do - and what not. Sony is much stricter in this regard than MS - given what we know so far

2) - And this is the important one - Sony chose the easy / cheap / fast solution: They basically offer the same console as before, just adapted some components. The only major difference seems to be the new GPU. While MS on the other hand had to develop a - more or less - complete new SKU, with a new CPU, a new memory solution, and so on.

It is obvious that those design decisions were a direct result of their predecessors' hardware designs. Basically, MS didn't have another choice than to "reinvent" XBOX, while Sony already had a solid foundation the could improve.

So, in the end, Sony will be able to offer a 4.x TF SKU within the next months. And for all we know they might offer it for a very competitive price as well.

MS on the other hand decided to go "all in" tech-wise while there were at it. They want to have the clearly most powerful console on the market, and in order to do so, they accepted that their main competitor will launch their product up to 12 months earlier - and cheaper of course. Well, I hope nobody here expects that Scorpio will cost the same as Neo...

Now, while I for one would have preferred Sony to go "all in" tech-wise like MS did, I have no doubt that on the long run Neo's price and time advantage will be much bigger assets than the additional power of Scorpio.

Not to forget, if Sony stays within this "new SKU every 3 years" schedule, Scorpio will not only have a short reign as the most powerful console, it will also give Sony a significant head start for the launch of the "true" next generation of consoles.

 

[Staf]

Meh, got money to waste. Will buy a Neo and give the old PS4 to the nephews.

 

[Primethius]

When it validates their console brand of choice, yes.

This post is completely unsurprising coming from you.

WHAT A SHOCKER

 

[DarkNorm]

Not to forget, if Sony stays within this "new SKU every 3 years" schedule, Scorpio will not only have a short reign as the most powerful console, it will also give Sony a significant head start for the launch of the "true" next generation of consoles.

This for me is the biggest and most important point in this debate. Scorpio's main purpose and selling point is 4K. If you read every post by staunch XBOX gamers and listen to all the podcasts then this is the main selling point for all of them. They forget though that 4K is a very small market at the moment. Yes it's growing but it is going to take 4 maybe even 5 to 6 years to become big enough to market new hardware into.

Microsoft is jumping the gun by 2 years. By the time 4K is relevant enough for the console market, Sony drops the PS5.

 

[Kuosi]

If the new higher clocked Jaquar is true then the power gap between neo and scorpio will be even bigger(assuming scorpio gets Zen)

 

[MilkyJoe]

Not to forget, if Sony stays within this "new SKU every 3 years" schedule, Scorpio will not only have a short reign as the most powerful console, it will also give Sony a significant head start for the launch of the "true" next generation of consoles.

I'd say 4 years... Which will give MS the lead for 3 out of the next 4 years. Then PS5 will drop giving Sony the lead for probably just 1 year before Xbox Sagittarius drops, giving it the lead again. Is this not the most likely outcome based on your logic?

This for me is the biggest and most important point in this debate. Scorpio's main purpose and selling point is 4K. If you read every post by staunch XBOX gamers and listen to all the podcasts then this is the main selling point for all of them. They forget though that 4K is a very small market at the moment. Yes it's growing but it is going to take 4 maybe even 5 to 6 years to become big enough to market new hardware into.

Microsoft is jumping the gun by 2 years. By the time 4K is relevant enough for the console market, Sony drops the PS5.

Phil has said many times that devs can use the power however they want. Marketing 4K capability is just another way of saying "I have a bigger willy"

 

[EmilioLargo]

That's the biggest oversight I think. I'll pay good money for faster loading Bloodborne or SFV, higher priority than say...60fps...maybe equal priority.
Ok, maybe 60fps first, faster loading second.

Agree. For me it is about equally important. With WiFi AC having the next spot in my priority list.

 

[Averon]

The Neo is not going to beat the Scorpio power-wise, and it was never meant to. People need to come to terms with that right now. If you want something from Sony that out paces the Scorpio, wait for the PS5 in 2019 or 2020.

From the specs and how Sony's talking about it, the Neo is very much a "PS4.5". That is all it is meant to be--an extension of the PS4's life cycle.

The Scorpio seems to be more of a full generational advancement than a mere extension of the XBO, and that is reflects in the specs.

 

[DarkNorm]

Phil has said many times that devs can use the power however they want. Marketing 4K capability is just another way of saying "I have a bigger willy"

But that is the marketing message being put out there as of right now. Developers will develop for the market. The market is HDMI. 4K as of right now is irrelevant to the "majority" and will be for at least the next 4+ years.

 

[wapplew]

I'd say 4 years... Which will give MS the lead for 3 out of the next 4 years. Then PS5 will drop giving Sony the lead for probably just 1 year before Xbox Sagittarius drops, giving it the lead again. Is this not the most likely outcome based on your logic?

Well, unless they find different chip provider, they have to take whatever AMD could make at that time. Which make the whole thing rather boring to me.
It's like buy RX480 this year or wait for RX580 next year.