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Eurogamer: NX = portable w/ carts, detachable controllers, Tegra, TV Out, no BC, Sept
- Thread starter Wollan
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You are wrong. Architecture does matter. It's just not about power.
A few thoughts:
, I'd put my money firmly on scenario 1, as I don't think scenario 2 would be practical from a financial point of view and I don't think scenario 3 would be practical full stop.
That said, it's worth taking a flight of fancy on the crazy extreme scenario just for curiosity's sake. I should preface this by emphasising that I absolutely don't think it's going to happen, but that it's an interesting hypothetical extreme case to consider. A couple of months ago I wrote a post examining a hypothetical TN1 Tegra chip which would be used in both a Nintendo handheld and a home console, running at much higher clock speeds in the latter. My analysis concluded that it didn't make much sense, as even if it was theoretically feasible, there weren't any benefits. Nintendo could get better performance for their money in each device by using separate chips. Of course, my analysis was based on an implicit assumption; that the handheld and home console are two physically different devices. However, if the reason that Nintendo wants a single SoC that can work both in a handheld environment and a home console environment is that they want a single device to do both, then it gets a little more interesting.
For under $40* (which is a lot for a handheld SoC, but cheap for a home console SoC), Nintendo should be able to get a TN1 with an 8-core A72 CPU, a 512 "core" Pascal GPU and a 256-bit LPDDR4 interface. Running the CPU at about 700-800MHz and the GPU at around 300MHz should be doable for a passively cooled handheld*, and running the CPU at 2.4GHz and the GPU at 1.2GHz should consume about 25W* for decent home console mode performance. That puts GPU performance at about 300 NV Gflops for handheld mode and around 1.2 NV Tflops for home console mode, which would suit a system which is designed around 540p output in handheld mode and 1080p output in home console mode. RAM becomes a little more complicated, as you need enough of it (and importantly with enough bandwidth) for the system not to be memory-starved in home console mode. Pretty much the only way to do that without guzzling too much power in handheld mode is to use a 256-bit wide LPDDR4 memory system, which means four LPDDR4 chips (which might be a bit of a squeeze in the handheld form factor, and obviously add to the cost).
Of course, as previously mentioned, I can't see any way of overcoming the engineering challenge of properly cooling a 25W chip while docked, while still keeping the system slim and portable while in handheld mode. Nonetheless, it's an interesting hypothetical to consider, in that aside from the cooling difficulty, Nintendo could use a single SoC that can perform admirably in a ~2W envelope in a handheld, while also stretching up to compete with PS4 and XBO in an actively cooled environment (and one which is still pulling a very low power draw for a console).
*While I've done my best to estimate costs and power draw for these chips, there are big margins of error to my calculations, so take them with a heaping pile of salt.
- Seems I was completely wrong on the whole hybrid thing. I'm still a little confused by a few of the points, not least of which is the detachable controller parts, which don't seem like a Nintendo kind of thing at all (too easy to break or lose), but I suppose Nintendo gonna do what Nintendo gonna do, and being predictable isn't exactly their thing.
- NX won't use the Tegra X1. Even aside from the comment in the article that they're being actively cooled (which wouldn't fly in a handheld, particularly a Nintendo handheld), there's no reason to use an off the shelf chip when the NX would be expected to sell literally an order of magnitude more units than every other Tegra device combined. Nintendo will be getting a custom Tegra chip.
- If they're using a custom Tegra chip, and are still using an X1 in dev kits, that would suggest that the custom chip is a 16nm Pascal-based Tegra (which might also partly explain the launch delay, if they're waiting for yields to improve).
- If they're actively cooling the X1, then the target performance for the custom chip has to be higher than can be achieved on a passively cooled X1. That means 300+ Gflops. That's not much for a home console (although we'll get to that later), but it's a hell of a chip for a handheld, literally better than the best case scenario I would have considered a few months ago. It would be a big generational leap from Vita even on a 720p screen, or on a 540p/480p screen you'd be in the ballpark necessary to get decent quality XBO/PS4 ports.
- The dock is "dumb", and games running in home console mode and handheld mode both run entirely on the Tegra chip in the handheld unit, running at the same clock speeds in both cases. In this case we'd probably be looking at a 720p screen in the handheld, and obviously identical graphics regardless of which mode you're in. This would have the advantage of making things a lot easier for developers, as there's only one hardware config to worry about.
- The dock is "smart", with extra computational components inside (GPU, RAM, maybe a full SoC). In this case the "home console" mode could in theory match or exceed PS4 and XBO, as Nintendo could put arbitrarily powerful hardware in the dock, although the total system could get very expensive.
- The dock is "dumb", but when games run on the dock in "home console" mode, the SoC runs at higher clock speeds. There are basically two different sub-scenarios for this:
(a) The SoC is passively cooled in both scenarios. In this case you could have it running at low clocks for about 2W power draw in the handheld mode, and clock it up to draw about 5W in home console mode. The case of the device would get pretty warm in home console mode, but as you're not holding it that shouldn't be too much of an issue. In a pretty much best case scenario this might allow you to double your GPU performance in home console mode, allowing for slightly prettier graphics or higher resolution.
(b) The SoC has a ~2W power draw in handheld mode, and is passively cooled, but is actively cooled in home console mode, and hence can hit far higher TDP (tens of Watts, anyway). In this case you need to actually get a fan and heatsink into the mix somehow. The simplest way of doing it would be to fit the fan in the handheld unit, but only turn it on when docked (so it's still silent for handheld use). The issue is that you're going to end up with a seriously bulky handheld unit, which will detract from the main selling point of being able to take your games on the go.
The other possibility is that you design some insane cooling dock system which is able to dissipate a serious amount of heat from the handheld without leaving users with burns when they pick up the handheld immediately after use. I can't imagine any way in which they could implement this which would be at all actually practical.
(then I would have lost a lot of money already)
That said, it's worth taking a flight of fancy on the crazy extreme scenario just for curiosity's sake. I should preface this by emphasising that I absolutely don't think it's going to happen, but that it's an interesting hypothetical extreme case to consider. A couple of months ago I wrote a post examining a hypothetical TN1 Tegra chip which would be used in both a Nintendo handheld and a home console, running at much higher clock speeds in the latter. My analysis concluded that it didn't make much sense, as even if it was theoretically feasible, there weren't any benefits. Nintendo could get better performance for their money in each device by using separate chips. Of course, my analysis was based on an implicit assumption; that the handheld and home console are two physically different devices. However, if the reason that Nintendo wants a single SoC that can work both in a handheld environment and a home console environment is that they want a single device to do both, then it gets a little more interesting.
For under $40* (which is a lot for a handheld SoC, but cheap for a home console SoC), Nintendo should be able to get a TN1 with an 8-core A72 CPU, a 512 "core" Pascal GPU and a 256-bit LPDDR4 interface. Running the CPU at about 700-800MHz and the GPU at around 300MHz should be doable for a passively cooled handheld*, and running the CPU at 2.4GHz and the GPU at 1.2GHz should consume about 25W* for decent home console mode performance. That puts GPU performance at about 300 NV Gflops for handheld mode and around 1.2 NV Tflops for home console mode, which would suit a system which is designed around 540p output in handheld mode and 1080p output in home console mode. RAM becomes a little more complicated, as you need enough of it (and importantly with enough bandwidth) for the system not to be memory-starved in home console mode. Pretty much the only way to do that without guzzling too much power in handheld mode is to use a 256-bit wide LPDDR4 memory system, which means four LPDDR4 chips (which might be a bit of a squeeze in the handheld form factor, and obviously add to the cost).
Of course, as previously mentioned, I can't see any way of overcoming the engineering challenge of properly cooling a 25W chip while docked, while still keeping the system slim and portable while in handheld mode. Nonetheless, it's an interesting hypothetical to consider, in that aside from the cooling difficulty, Nintendo could use a single SoC that can perform admirably in a ~2W envelope in a handheld, while also stretching up to compete with PS4 and XBO in an actively cooled environment (and one which is still pulling a very low power draw for a console).
*While I've done my best to estimate costs and power draw for these chips, there are big margins of error to my calculations, so take them with a heaping pile of salt.
I don't think it's up to Nintendo to determine how Just Dance is supposed to control. I don't think Just Dance means anything one way or the other for the final control options that Nintendo goes with.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
This.....may be what I was expecting, but now what I was hoping for.
Still cautiously optimistic, but my first thought is 'meh'.
edit:
Basically
This.
Still cautiously optimistic, but my first thought is 'meh'.
edit:
Basically
This.
texhnolyze
Banned
Which means a ridiculously high battery usage.
Inferno313
Banned
The WiiU is the opposite of a powerful system, and it's old tech at this point too. A Tegra would be a noticeable upgrade over a WiiU, and since this thing is designed to fit in cellphone, it won't require a huge handheld.
Kowashitai
Banned
As much as anything else in the OP. I don't think no BC fucks Nintendo over because if that was the case, no console this generation would have survived.
Honey Bunny
Member
Ready for that 3 hour battery life.
Ok cool so we got a good idea bout the hardware. Now, I don't need to know about the software, but I'm largely interested in the services they'll be offering. MS are focusing on Xbox gaming decoupled from hardware, Sony offer streaming, very interested to see what Nintendo have developed.
audio_delay
Neo Member
Plus, nvida flops aren't the same as amd flops. I thought we already established that flops are a bad representation of processing power.
Now we have to see if Sony and MS will stick to AMD in the future, or will Nintendo start another trend again, and both competitors will follow suit.
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
Well, shit.
It's a single screen handheld that uses cartridges. Idk how BC would be possible.
All development to one device
These threads always bring the crazies
The computing device sounds great on paper but I'm not sure about the actual use of it. First thing is how many computing devices are we talking about? Is there going to be a limit? I think there has to be.
Second it will require making multiple SKUs depending on how many are allowed in which will cost more money to develop while less people even using it due to price.
Third QA may become a nightmare and overall it kinda defeats the purpose of consolidating the Nintendo devs onto one device if they'll make them work on multiple SKUs. With current model they would pump games faster.
Fourth games will have to be designed with base device in mind in this case an handheld in some cases not capable of running big AAA games because of specs and space. Unless you want to see things like "work with atlest 1 computing devices only".
It's like Nintendo is creating more work for themselves for questionable gains with what may be a little profit. The idea we have now is much more streamlined and makes more sense.
They already said that NX is a line of products and not just a piece of hardware. The first product can be this handheld hybrid, the next one could be a home console version with better specs, or a XL version of the handheld, and stuff like that. While I think this is the only thing we will get in 2017, I have no doubt that this is just one of the pieces of hardware they are developing.
Inferno313
Banned
One of their biggest problems is software droughts, and finding the right balance between console and handheld releases. This eliminates that problem entirely.
Hatty
Member
Better than the DS4 at least
Nobody is doing hardware BC anymore and gamers are fine with this.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Here's a crazy idea: as long as we have detachable controllers, why not a detachable screen? Why not a modular system that would allow you to connect your own screen to the handheld, not just your home TV, but perhaps even use your own smartphone as the screen?
Assuming it could be done (Android and iOS would need to support this, for all I know maybe they already do), it would be a HUGE cost cutter while simultaneously allowing the device to be smaller and make it that much likelier people will carry it around. It would also mean HUGE battery savings as the phone could power the screen (fully or partially) while the handheld powers the rest of the hardware. Furthermore, people complaining about crappy Nintendo handheld screens will have nothing to complain about.
DarkConfidant
Member
Nintendo is dead. But, long live Nintendo?
Papacheeks
Banned
It's anything but smart at the moment. With how much Microsoft is still floundering this generation it could have been Their time to swoop in and come out with a bang. But instead they are going to almost concentrate on region specific market of Japanese third party deals, first party and hope UK/US really like the device like they did with Wii.
Which I don't see happening like they want it too.
forknknife
Banned
That would suck because to me a handheld with wiiU performance only makes sense if I'll be able to get access to the wiiU library too, since i skipped that system.
Really don't know what to think about this nx... i can't imagine it becoming a huge hit tbh.
thehillissilent
Member
I'm really hoping for TegraX2 myself. An actively cooled TegraX1 means that they are DEFINATELY overclocking it. This alone makes me think that it is Tegra X2.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...-mobile-games-machine-powered-by-nvidia-tegra
Undead Fantasy
Member
So there's a change we can have Smash 4 in HD portable? Sign me the fuck up. Day 1.
FreedomFighter
Member
Japan gonna go apeshit over NX.
coughlanio
Member
Nintendo Go.
Calling it.
Go is five in Japanese, this being their 5th generation handheld. Also, makes sense to capitalise on the Pokemon Go mindshare.
Calling it.
Go is five in Japanese, this being their 5th generation handheld. Also, makes sense to capitalise on the Pokemon Go mindshare.
spazimoose
Member
With neo and scorpio coming soon it's more important than ever that devs make sure their games scale well. To have your game playable on NX < XBone < PS4 < NEO < Scorpio your game needs to scale through 4 levels. Its like making a pc game that has to run on countless different configs. Except one's ARM... Yeah this isn't going to get a lot third party ports.
Pokemon is gonna be the killer app. I'm hoping they can finally add co-op. This would be the perfect console for it. Start up Pokemon on the big screen. Partner gets home. Joins your match. Or maybe the kids were already home playing, and you can join them. They're already doing away (? I don't keep track) with the Gym leader format of the game, which is like the biggest obstruction to a co-op Pokemon game around. If they move progression from singular obstacles to potentially group obstacles (like all progression is done by obtaining HMs), we could get the biggest killer Pokemon game since Red/Blue. Or since Go. And with the added Pokemon attention from Go. It's crazy to imagine. That single game could justify the console.
T.Slothrop
Member
I'll probably buy it. I buy them all. I mean assuming it isn't priced too stupidly.
It doesn't fix gaming handhelds dying off due to smartphones nor does it fix third party developers having limited interest.
That's what I was assuming they'd do..but at present it sounds like people are going to be forced to buy a handheld even if they only want a home console.
Hopefully there are some crossed wires and stand alone devices will be available...as being forced to pay extra for a handheld if you only want a home console is ridiculous
My point was that I don't think it's the release, but I think the title probably should get a bit more context in it to state what Sept is.
Leona Lewis
Banned
I am now interested. I'm surprised about the negativity, since this is what I assumed most people wanted rather than futilely chasing Sony and Microsoft in the power stakes.
I haven't read the whole thread, but any word on whether the dock adds extra processing power or ports for VR, etc? That might mollify some people's concerns.
Exciting times ahead for a streamlined dev pipeline.
I haven't read the whole thread, but any word on whether the dock adds extra processing power or ports for VR, etc? That might mollify some people's concerns.
Exciting times ahead for a streamlined dev pipeline.
DrROBschiz
Member
They can do BC for 3DS at least
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