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Eurogamer: NX = portable w/ carts, detachable controllers, Tegra, TV Out, no BC, Sept

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Schnozberry

Schnozberry

Member
Plinko said:
Right. So that either means

A) Greater than Tegra X1 chip

or

B) Dock provides extra power
Click to expand...

Or both. Standard Tegra X1's are passively cooled, and if the current active cooler is adequate it might be able to draw additional wattage from the dock to get better performance for stationary mode.
 
Y

yami4ct

Member
AniHawk said:
so nintendo is basically going hard to follow up with their handheld line. makes sense given they'll probably get the most support from japan anyway.

this is pretty close to the concept in the fake oval design too. i wonder if the main hub of this can be used in other ways.
Click to expand...

I think it's more of they're unifying both things into one to get the most they can out of all markets. I expect this to be marketed more as a handheld in Japan, but I expect them to push this as a console that happens to be able to be brought on the road in the west.

PantherLotus said:
the problem everyone is forgetting is that there's supposedly a dock. what the dock is and involves is key.
Click to expand...

I imagine the dock will have TV ports, a dedicated power source and not much else. The device then can clock the processors up and start active cooling when it's in 'dock' mode to allow for acceptable IQ on TVs.
 
V

VanWinkle

Member
Indigo Rush said:
No offense to artists here but I have yet to see a mock-up of the proposed design that I actually like, the concept is that inherently awful.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, that all look bad. That's because people are trying to figure out a middle ground between portability and comfortability. It's going to be a tough medium to figure out. It seems like it's either going to be a heavily compromised portable (overly big and bulky) or a heavily compromised console controller (thin, un-ergonomic shape, subpar analog and trigger solution, etc).
 
W

wanderingprostheyltite

Member
Kuro said:
Yeah no way they'd make something ugly like that...

gamepad-front-black.jpg
Click to expand...

Meh, I meant more the huge negative spaced U-shape that example I quoted would leave behind with the controllers.
 
O

outunderthestars

Banned
PantherLotus said:
the problem everyone is forgetting is that there's supposedly a dock. what the dock is and involves is key.
Click to expand...

I assume it is a charging stand with an HDMI out. I don't think it will do much else. I don't see them adding storage, ram, etc to the dock.

It will probably allow the CPU and GPU in the handheld to run faster when plugged in tough.
 
N

Neoxon

Junior Member
As other have mentioned (myself included), one of the benefits of going this route for the NX is that Game Freak will have no choice but to give us an HD mainline Pokémon game.
 
D

Deleted member 465307

Unconfirmed Member
btrboyev said:
No it doesn't.
Click to expand...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't an X1 more powerful than Wii U's GPU? And if it's being actively cooled with audible fans, that suggests the chip is being pushed hard and might be OCed or something? (I'm not sure if the X1 is normally actively cooled, but I would think it's not given that I thought it gets put in tablets)

Only partially related: The part about the X1 being actively cooled is why there's speculation it could use an X2 because a handheld would not use active cooling, right?
 
O

Ollie Pooch

In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
Sounds like a Vita, to be honest - in a confused no mans land between console and handheld, but I love my PSV and I'm excited for Monster Hunter on this.

One portable device that multiple kids could play sounds really cool, too. Can't wait to see it,
 
wondermega

wondermega

Member
Man these threads move fast, hard to keep up!
Successor to 3DS (it's still a handheld) - can they actually ditch the 3D effect? And as some have doubtless wondered in this thread - optional Samsung gearVr mode then? With a powerful chipset behind it, that would at least be interesting..
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
outunderthestars said:
I assume it is a charging stand with an HDMI out. I don't think it will do much else. I don't see them adding storage, ram, etc to the dock.

It will probably allow the CPU and GPU in the handheld to run faster when plugged in tough.
Click to expand...

If it's just a charging stand and an HDMI out, why not just include a couple cords?
 
Schnozberry

Schnozberry

Member
kirbyfan407 said:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't an X1 more powerful than Wii U's GPU? And if it's being actively cooled with audible fans, that suggests the chip is being pushed hard and might be OCed or something? (I'm not sure if the X1 is normally actively cooled, but I would think it's not given that I thought it gets put in tablets)
Click to expand...

It's more than twice the power of the Wii U GPU.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The worst part about this thread is all the examples of horrible Android devices, and grips, and stupid tablets from China, adorned with lime green accents tribal tattoos and crap. Ugh.

I'm really allergic to that "PC gear" look.

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Might be powered by Inklings.
Click to expand...
Pikmin out of the job?
 
T

Tidalwave

Member
If this is genuinly supposed to replace both the 3ds and the wiiu then my biggest fear is having to pay a console price twice for games like pokemon and monster hunter for family multiplayer.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
OrbitalMatrix said:
jk
Click to expand...
I swear if Monster Hunter just uprezzes their 4 and X games for the NX like they did with Tri, I'm gonna flip.

A competently made Monster Hunter for the big screen with a modern engine could be a system seller for me, no matter how much I dislike the general concept.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
this can't just be a 3DS with detachable controllers and an HDMI out. or a WiiU controller with detachable sides. you don't need a dock for either of those.

it's gotta be something like a smaller / thinner WiiU controller that mounts on a dock. the main processing power has to be in the mobile unit, and i don't know if i buy the controllers connect to the mobile unit itself, rather than just the dock.
 
T

tr1p1ex

Member
Detachable controllers are for motion control at the tv ala wiimote and nunchuk.

I like the idea of cartridges except in the past if you resell a cart then your saves go with it. I imagine they might change this. ..unless they expect everyone in the house to have their own NX......

......which maybe is the case because it doesn't seem like I can get just one for the family. I mean what if my kid takes it into his room or out of the house. No gaming for you. The console experience has never required you to wander your home looking for where your kid last left the console. That would definitely be a more advanced version of finding the remote or game controller.
 
A

AzaK

Member
This is hilarious! If true it is even worse than even my cynical arse would have thought.

Certainly Day-Never for me! I don't handheld game, so why the fuck would I want to fork out a huge amount of money on compact low end tech with a screen when I have a massive TV I want to play games on.

It also seems madness because it's basically thrown the home market away and it becomes just a value-add. Hopefully they have some other additional, more power versino as well as this.
 
M

MatrixMan.EXE

Member
Haunted said:
I swear if Monster Hunter just uprezzes 4 and X for the NX I'm gonna flip.

A competently made Monster Hunter for the big screen could be a system seller for me. I got a WiiU for it after all.
Click to expand...

I don't think Capcom could squeeze anymore out of those 10 year old assets. I'm loving MHG but it's clear the series needs an overhaul, especially with the visuals.
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
outunderthestars said:
Aren't they releasing a metroid shooter this fall? And art style has nothing to do with kind if game, as the monster hunter games go for more realistic graphics yet are on portables. Art style has nothing to do with the duration of gaming, but I areas on the horsepower of the platform. The 3DS just doesn't have a decent enough resolution to make realistic art styles easy to play.

There really isn't any difference between Smash Bros on console and handheld. Same with Hyrule warriors, Mario kart, animal crossing, Zelda ports, etc.

How does OoT suddenly become "more suitable" when it gets ported over?
Click to expand...

I don't think the graphics on the upcoming Metroid game have anything to do with the power of the system. Metroid Prime Hunters was released on the DS using the Prime style of graphics on a system with far less power (And yes, it obviously looked worse than the other Prime titles, but that didn't mean the art style was different). It simply a matter of poor taste that this new art style is being used on the new Metroid title. It has nothing to do with it being a handheld.
 
M

Mory Dunz

Member
Thraktor said:
A few thoughts:


  • Seems I was completely wrong on the whole hybrid thing. I'm still a little confused by a few of the points, not least of which is the detachable controller parts, which don't seem like a Nintendo kind of thing at all (too easy to break or lose), but I suppose Nintendo gonna do what Nintendo gonna do, and being predictable isn't exactly their thing.
  • NX won't use the Tegra X1. Even aside from the comment in the article that they're being actively cooled (which wouldn't fly in a handheld, particularly a Nintendo handheld), there's no reason to use an off the shelf chip when the NX would be expected to sell literally an order of magnitude more units than every other Tegra device combined. Nintendo will be getting a custom Tegra chip.
  • If they're using a custom Tegra chip, and are still using an X1 in dev kits, that would suggest that the custom chip is a 16nm Pascal-based Tegra (which might also partly explain the launch delay, if they're waiting for yields to improve).
  • If they're actively cooling the X1, then the target performance for the custom chip has to be higher than can be achieved on a passively cooled X1. That means 300+ Gflops. That's not much for a home console (although we'll get to that later), but it's a hell of a chip for a handheld, literally better than the best case scenario I would have considered a few months ago. It would be a big generational leap from Vita even on a 720p screen, or on a 540p/480p screen you'd be in the ballpark necessary to get decent quality XBO/PS4 ports.
There are a few different ways of going about the "handheld" mode versus the "home console" mode from a hardware perspective, which may be worth looking at:


  1. The dock is "dumb", and games running in home console mode and handheld mode both run entirely on the Tegra chip in the handheld unit, running at the same clock speeds in both cases. In this case we'd probably be looking at a 720p screen in the handheld, and obviously identical graphics regardless of which mode you're in. This would have the advantage of making things a lot easier for developers, as there's only one hardware config to worry about.
  2. The dock is "smart", with extra computational components inside (GPU, RAM, maybe a full SoC). In this case the "home console" mode could in theory match or exceed PS4 and XBO, as Nintendo could put arbitrarily powerful hardware in the dock, although the total system could get very expensive.
  3. The dock is "dumb", but when games run on the dock in "home console" mode, the SoC runs at higher clock speeds. There are basically two different sub-scenarios for this:
    (a) The SoC is passively cooled in both scenarios. In this case you could have it running at low clocks for about 2W power draw in the handheld mode, and clock it up to draw about 5W in home console mode. The case of the device would get pretty warm in home console mode, but as you're not holding it that shouldn't be too much of an issue. In a pretty much best case scenario this might allow you to double your GPU performance in home console mode, allowing for slightly prettier graphics or higher resolution.
    (b) The SoC has a ~2W power draw in handheld mode, and is passively cooled, but is actively cooled in home console mode, and hence can hit far higher TDP (tens of Watts, anyway). In this case you need to actually get a fan and heatsink into the mix somehow. The simplest way of doing it would be to fit the fan in the handheld unit, but only turn it on when docked (so it's still silent for handheld use). The issue is that you're going to end up with a seriously bulky handheld unit, which will detract from the main selling point of being able to take your games on the go.
    The other possibility is that you design some insane cooling dock system which is able to dissipate a serious amount of heat from the handheld without leaving users with burns when they pick up the handheld immediately after use. I can't imagine any way in which they could implement this which would be at all actually practical.
If I were betting on what Nintendo's doing
(then I would have lost a lot of money already)
, I'd put my money firmly on scenario 1, as I don't think scenario 2 would be practical from a financial point of view and I don't think scenario 3 would be practical full stop.

That said, it's worth taking a flight of fancy on the crazy extreme scenario just for curiosity's sake. I should preface this by emphasising that I absolutely don't think it's going to happen, but that it's an interesting hypothetical extreme case to consider. A couple of months ago I wrote a post examining a hypothetical TN1 Tegra chip which would be used in both a Nintendo handheld and a home console, running at much higher clock speeds in the latter. My analysis concluded that it didn't make much sense, as even if it was theoretically feasible, there weren't any benefits. Nintendo could get better performance for their money in each device by using separate chips. Of course, my analysis was based on an implicit assumption; that the handheld and home console are two physically different devices. However, if the reason that Nintendo wants a single SoC that can work both in a handheld environment and a home console environment is that they want a single device to do both, then it gets a little more interesting.

For under $40* (which is a lot for a handheld SoC, but cheap for a home console SoC), Nintendo should be able to get a TN1 with an 8-core A72 CPU, a 512 "core" Pascal GPU and a 256-bit LPDDR4 interface. Running the CPU at about 700-800MHz and the GPU at around 300MHz should be doable for a passively cooled handheld*, and running the CPU at 2.4GHz and the GPU at 1.2GHz should consume about 25W* for decent home console mode performance. That puts GPU performance at about 300 NV Gflops for handheld mode and around 1.2 NV Tflops for home console mode, which would suit a system which is designed around 540p output in handheld mode and 1080p output in home console mode. RAM becomes a little more complicated, as you need enough of it (and importantly with enough bandwidth) for the system not to be memory-starved in home console mode. Pretty much the only way to do that without guzzling too much power in handheld mode is to use a 256-bit wide LPDDR4 memory system, which means four LPDDR4 chips (which might be a bit of a squeeze in the handheld form factor, and obviously add to the cost).

Of course, as previously mentioned, I can't see any way of overcoming the engineering challenge of properly cooling a 25W chip while docked, while still keeping the system slim and portable while in handheld mode. Nonetheless, it's an interesting hypothetical to consider, in that aside from the cooling difficulty, Nintendo could use a single SoC that can perform admirably in a ~2W envelope in a handheld, while also stretching up to compete with PS4 and XBO in an actively cooled environment (and one which is still pulling a very low power draw for a console).

*While I've done my best to estimate costs and power draw for these chips, there are big margins of error to my calculations, so take them with a heaping pile of salt.
Click to expand...

Nice writeup.
I don't know tech but it sounds logical
 
R

Ridley327

Member
Kyzer said:
Capcom won't make monster hunter HD until uprezzed crap stops selling imo
Click to expand...

They've already made HD Monster Hunter games. They do not look like Dragon's Dogma, but they are definitely HD.

It's more accurate to say that people want AAA Monster Hunter.
 
O

outunderthestars

Banned
BRocknRolla said:
I don't think the graphics on the upcoming Metroid game have anything to do with the power of the system. Metroid Prime Hunters was released on the DS using the Prime style of graphics on a system with far less power (And yes, it obviously looked worse than the other Prime titles, but that didn't mean the art style was different). It simply a matter of poor taste that this new art style is being used on the new Metroid title. It has nothing to do with it being a handheld.
Click to expand...

They said in an interview earlier this week that the art style was required due to the low resolution of the screens.


http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1251819
 
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