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[ekim]

Yep! But nevertheless, it would be fun to read "optimistic" posts here.



No, i'm not.

Of course you are. I merely speculated here about a slight increase due to the newer architecture of the APU to have some headroom for HDR and you took it as some kind of offense and started offending me and others. Why are you so hard about the idea the X1 getting a minor boost? Is this some console war shit? If you don't like those speculations, you should not enter these threads.

Edit: I talked about a 200-400 MFlops increase.

 

[wachie]

I do not ever see him calling it 'just that', but theoretically, the chipsets are capable of double the Flops in half precision modes/instances. That is not a non-fact with what is known with the tech in them.

No, he's saying that Microsoft purposely misled with the 6TF figure for the Scorpio and that is half-precision peak and in reality the Scorpio is 3TF as opposed to Neo's 4TF. That's cuckoo land theory in my opinion.

 

[Conduit]

Of course you are. I merely speculated here about a slight increase due to the newer architecture of the APU to have some headroom for HDR and you took it as some kind of offense and started offending me and others. Why are you so hard about the idea the X1 getting a minor boost? Is this some console war shit? If you don't like those speculations, you should not enter these threads.

Edit: I talked about a 200-400 MFlops increase.

So maybe we are looking at 1.6-1.8 TFlops within the One-S

Dude, there is no Xbone's secret sauce and also you mentioned 400 GFLOPS upgrade. You see what you did wrote? That's not a minor boost. It's OK to spread misinformation like the OP, but when somebody is mocking ( like me ) that, now i'm offensive to others. Good!

And also, can't wait to MrX stop by here to see this.

 

[ekim]

Dude, there is no Xbone's secret sauce and also you mentioned 400 GFLOPS upgrade. You see what you did wrote. That's not a minor boost.

Yeah I meant GFLOPS. Sorry. Got this wrong. Sure it's a minor boost if devs won't be able to use it in games and it's there to stabilize OS and BC performance.

 

[etta]

Why is Conduit trying to equate secret sauce with natural tech advancements? Trying so hard to dismiss it lmao.

 

[wachie]

Why is Conduit trying to equate secret sauce with natural tech advancements? Trying so hard to dismiss it lmao.

400GFlops is a huge boost.

If there is indeed any boost, I expect 100-150GFlops at most.

 

[Clear]

What? My understanding was that the One S uses exactly the same APU just with the system reserves lowered to support the HDR output.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Dude, there is no Xbone's secret sauce and also you mentioned 400 GFLOPS upgrade. You see what you did wrote? That's not a minor boost. It's OK to spread misinformation like the OP, but when somebody is mocking ( like me ) that, now i'm offensive to others. Good!

And also, can't wait to MrX stop by here to see this.

Why? What will you do?!

I'm giddy with excitement just thinking about it.....

 

[Conduit]

400GFlops is a huge boost.

If there is indeed any boost, I expect 100-150GFlops at most.

That's not a minor boost too. Dude, then BF1 won't be 720p on Xbone.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Anyone have any idea how much work redesigning Jaguar for 14nm FinFet would be? I can't believe that Microsoft would go to the costs of doing this and then not even mention this in the press release but do mention HDR.

I think they did mention the 45nm shrink for 360s so why not make it a bullet point in the press release for Xbox One S?

 

[wachie]

That's not a minor boost too. Dude, then BF1 won't be 720p on Xbone.

I said at most.

Dude, BF1 not being 720p isnt some magic number. Even if they can achieve 900p with an additional 150GFlops, they wont just to keep it simple across the fat and slim.

 

[Hesemonni]

Halo Reach BC finally playable?

 

[wachie]

Anyone have any idea how much work redesigning Jaguar for 14nm FinFet would be? I can't believe that Microsoft would go to the costs of doing this and then not even mention this in the press release but do mention HDR.

I think they did mention the 45nm shrink for 360s so why not make it a bullet point in the press release for Xbox One S?

The contracts drawn up for the Xbox One are different than those in the 360 era. I dont think Microsoft are involved (much) in the die-shrink process this time round, they are just buying functional chips from AMD for a fixed price. Hence, its a "design win" for AMD.

 

[leeh]

Is this GPU really going to be down clocked by like 40 odd percent even when it's power usage is already lower? Forgive me if I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, this isn't my forte.

Even if this thing has a chunk more power, I very very much doubt we will see any performance improvements other than games which run dynamic resolution.

 

[statham]

That's not a minor boost too. Dude, then BF1 won't be 720p on Xbone.

just curious, but you know we are talking about the "S" model and not "xbone" model right? because the "S" model is more powerful, just that its currently locked to "xbone" specs.

 

[Aceofspades]

Wait, what? Xbone S is now outperforming PS4?

No, just onQ usual...MS already stated that X1S will not have any performance gains vs X1.

 

[onQ123]

He's way off base on things like Neo is really a 8TF half precision console.

FP16 is going to have a lot better performance on Polaris because it has native support for it, maybe not the same as having 8TF FP16.

If hitting the dartboard is another way to say "kinda off" then sure

The very notion that AMD made Polaris 10 and 11 because of PS4 Neo and XB1S is weird.

You think it's weird but AMD think it's smart

No, he's saying that Microsoft purposely misled with the 6TF figure for the Scorpio and that is half-precision peak and in reality the Scorpio is 3TF as opposed to Neo's 4TF. That's cuckoo land theory in my opinion.

No I'm not I was telling people that they couldn't just look at the information that was giving at E3 because they could have been using the FP16 number because AMD & Nvidia is starting to focus on FP16 for even the none mobile GPUs.

If the GPU that MS us in the Scorpio has a higher FP16 peak flops number they could use that number. this isn't saying that they will do it but you need more information than just a flop number.

 

[Conduit]

just curious, but you know we are talking about the "S" model and not "xbone" model right? because the "S" model is more powerful, just that its currently locked to "xbone" specs.

Yes, i know! Because there isn't any upgrade in terms of power. OK then, can't wait for face-offs.

No, just onQ usual...MS already stated that X1S will not have any performance gains vs X1.

Tell that to members here who believe that Xbone S is more powerful.

 

[Caayn]

And also, can't wait to MrX stop by here to see this.

Oh boy, onQ123 and mister media X in one thread.

 

[c0de]

Wait, what? Xbone S is now outperforming PS4?

Don't get a heart attack, even if, it will be limited intentionally. The stage is still yours.

 

[onQ123]

No, just onQ usual...MS already stated that X1S will not have any performance gains vs X1.

What? how does someone thinking X1S will out perform PS4 lead to me?

 

[etta]

Are you guys being intentionally obtuse or did you skip the part where both me an ekim mentioned any extra power won't be used for new games, but it could be used to stabilize BC and OS performance.
Stop acting like we're expecting any extra TF to result in increased Xbox One games performance.
Stop acting so desparate.

 

[Aceofspades]

Yes, i know! Because there isn't any upgrade in terms of power. OK then, can't wait for face-offs.



Tell that to members here who believe that Xbone S is more powerful.

Well, if they don't believe Microsoft (the makers of this thing) I see no point trying to waste energy convincing them.

 

[leeh]

Well, if they don't believe Microsoft (the makers of this thing) I see no point trying to waste energy convincing them.

Why is this different to everything else MS state? Due to trend, this thread should be more along the lines of 'Lies! It will have more power!'

 

[c0de]

Are you guys being intentionally obtuse or did you skip the part where both me an ekim mentioned any extra power won't be used for new games, but it could be used to stabilize BC and OS performance.
Stop acting like we're expecting any extra TF to result in increased Xbox One games performance.
Stop acting so desparate.

But the df threads, the df threads! I can't wait to see how some are happy to see no improvements because people in this thread said there will be more power, although they didn't.

 

[Aceofspades]

What? how does someone thinking X1S will out perform PS4 lead to me?

Sorry, I thought you quoted yourself in the first post, tends out to be ekim who claimed that.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Anyone have any idea how much work redesigning Jaguar for 14nm FinFet would be? I can't believe that Microsoft would go to the costs of doing this and then not even mention this in the press release but do mention HDR.

I think they did mention the 45nm shrink for 360s so why not make it a bullet point in the press release for Xbox One S?

What do you mean? And OG Jaguar can still fit on the same APU as this GPU I would think. They do not need to match in 'nm' from my understanding.

What? how does someone thinking X1S will out perform PS4 lead to me?

You are the villain we all need! ;-p

 

[madmackem]

Of course you are. I merely speculated here about a slight increase due to the newer architecture of the APU to have some headroom for HDR and you took it as some kind of offense and started offending me and others. Why are you so hard about the idea the X1 getting a minor boost? Is this some console war shit? If you don't like those speculations, you should not enter these threads.

Edit: I talked about a 200-400 MFlops increase.

Wait would hdr require anything on the hardware side aside hdmi 2.2, it's just a video output right?.

 

[c0de]

Wait would hdr require anything on the hardware side aside hdmi 2.2, it's just a video output right?.

You have to change the rendering itself. HDR as known currently is different to what HDR is in terms of the new tv's.
If this really requires more power we have yet to see.

 

[madmackem]

You have to change the rendering itself. HDR as known currently is different to what HDR is in terms of the new tv's.
If this really requires more power we have yet to see.

Is it? I thought it was exactly what's in new TVs, it's a wider colour gamut higher bit rate?.

 

[c0de]

Is it? I thought it was exactly what's in new TVs, it's a wider colour gamut higher bit rate?.

AFAIR HDR as used in games is “faked“ HDR because, well, if it was really HDR you would've needed a capable screen which we didn't have until recently.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

What do you mean? And OG Jaguar can still fit on the same APU as the GPU I would think. They do not need to match in 'nm' from my understanding.

I read this VRWorld article about Neo and the author said this:

At the same time, we managed to learn that SONY ran into a roadblock with their original PlayStation 4 plans. Just like all the previous consoles (PSX to PSOne, PS2, PS3), the plan was to re-do the silicon with a ‘simple’ die shrink, moving its APU and GPU combination from 28nm to 14nm. While this move was ‘easy’ in the past – you pay for the tapeout and NRE (Non-Recurring Engineering), neither Microsoft nor Sony were ready to pay for the cost of moving from a planar transistor (28nm) to a FinFET transistor design (14nm).

This ‘die-shrink’ requires to re-develop the same chip again, with a cost measured in excess of a hundred million dollars (est. $120-220 million). With Sony PlayStation VR retail packaging being a mess of cables and what appears to be a second video processing console, in the spring of 2014 SONY pulled the trigger and informed AMD that they would like to adopt AMD’s upcoming 14nm FinFET product line, based on successor of low-power Puma (16h) CPU and the Polaris GPU processor architecture.

And in one of the comments below the article he said this:

Zen is October. So is Vega. My sources told me they're not Jaguar cores - Jaguar is a 28nm planar transistor design. The new chip - and it's just one - SoC or APU, depending on how you like to call it - is a 14nm FinFET. To redesign the core from planar to FinFET is a 'pointless exercise', you have to build the same chip all over again. Zen Light might be "Puma 2", or something similar. I wrote what I know, which admittedly so is not too much - it's still early days to leak something out of Japan.

http://vrworld.com/2016/05/11/amd-confirms-sony-playstation-neo-based-zen-polaris/

To the second part of your comment are you suggesting the single chip APU being 14nmFF for the GPU part and 28nm Planar for the Jaguar CPU part? If so I didn't know that would be possible? I think that can be done with a MCM like WiiU but not with a single chip APU?

 

[Tripolygon]

He's way off base on things like Neo is really a 8TF half precision console.

I think what he means by that is Manufacturers tend to use numbers that are bigger to advertise their products. Mobile GPUs tend to advertise FP16 instead of FP32 numbers to make their TFlop bigger.

Polaris now supports both FP16 as well as FP32. PS Neo performance at FP32 will be 4.2TF while on FP16 will be double that which is 8.4TF.

 

[Vegetable Lasagna]

This all makes sense with Rod Ferguson's comments around E3 about the Xbox One S and Gears 4 performance. He got oddly quiet once that blew up on Twitter and Spencer got involved. Hhhmmm. Hopefully we see some gains in OS and BC performance. Got my S preordered and waiting.

People are also grasping if they think MS used FP16 numbers for Scorpio and it's going to be less powerful than Neo. Sounds beyond crazy after all of the flack MS has taken for the Xbone being less powerful than the current PS4.

 

[onQ123]

What do you mean? And OG Jaguar can still fit on the same APU as this GPU I would think. They do not need to match in 'nm' from my understanding.



You are the villain we all need! ;-p

Guess I'm Red Herring now.

 

[DieH@rd]

Meet Polaris 11 (Baffin) GPU that could be powering the Xbox One S Reply to Thread

keyword "could"

 

[GhostTrick]

FP16 is going to have a lot better performance on Polaris because it has native support for it, maybe not the same as having 8TF FP16.




You think it's weird but AMD think it's smart





No I'm not I was telling people that they couldn't just look at the information that was giving at E3 because they could have been using the FP16 number because AMD & Nvidia is starting to focus on FP16 for even the none mobile GPUs.

If the GPU that MS us in the Scorpio has a higher FP16 peak flops number they could use that number. this isn't saying that they will do it but you need more information than just a flop number.

No, it's just that it's not how things work. You really believe that AMD was like "Hey, this GPU Sony asked us to make... It would be a good product to release ! ".
It's not how things works. More like "Hey AMD, this GPU looks good. We want this in our console".
PS4 and XB1 GPU are based on AMD's current offering. Not the opposite.

 

[Tripolygon]

No, it's just that it's not how things work. You really believe that AMD was like "Hey, this GPU Sony asked us to make... It would be a good product to release ! ".
It's not how things works. More like "Hey AMD, this GPU looks good. We want this in our console".
PS4 and XB1 GPU are based on AMD's current offering. Not the opposite.

PS4 and XB1 are based on AMD architecture, modified by Sony and Microsoft. According to an AMD employee, said changes have made its way to AMD's mainstream GPUs.

 

[onQ123]

This all makes sense with Rod Ferguson's comments around E3 about the Xbox One S and Gears 4 performance. He got oddly quiet once that blew up on Twitter and Spencer got involved. Hhhmmm. Hopefully we see some gains in OS and BC performance. Got my S preordered and waiting.

I do wonder if UWP games will run better on Xbox One S.

People are also grasping if they think MS used FP16 numbers for Scorpio and it's going to be less powerful than Neo. Sounds beyond crazy after all of the flack MS has taken for the Xbone being less powerful than the current PS4.

They gave out more info after E3 & they clearly state that it's 4.5 X more powerful than the Xbox One so it's no question that it's more powerful than Neo. Neo is only 3X more powerful than Xbox One.

 

[c0de]

I think what he means by that is Manufacturers tend to use numbers that are bigger to advertise their products. Mobile GPUs tend to advertise FP16 instead of FP32 numbers to make their TFlop bigger.

Polaris now supports both FP16 as well as FP32. PS Neo performance at FP32 will be 4.2TF while on FP16 will be double that which is 8.4TF.

So Scorpio will be 12 tf? ;-)
Usually in serious applications, it's double precision which is the really interesting spec.

 

[Xenoflare]

I thought Microsoft stated clearly with full direct response saying that games will not have any performance boost and the only thing that could improve the image quality is the HDR.

PSP 2000 had double the ram but it was only for the internet browser. New 3DS had a massive spec bump in comparison but Pokemon X struggles exactly the same as the old 3DS

OS speed improvement is very possible though

 

[wachie]

keyword "could"

thanks

 

[LukasTaves]

If true, this will put the nail in the coffin of those saying NX has an AMD GPU based on the AMD three SoC contracts. Neo, Scorpio, and now S.

It would also mean that Neo is only coming 2017 now. Didn't they said they had 2 designs expected to 2016, but one end up slipping to 2017?

 

[Three]

AFAIR HDR as used in games is “faked“ HDR because, well, if it was really HDR you would've needed a capable screen which we didn't have until recently.

This isn't that kind of HDR. It's the TV kind. You do need a slightly bigger/faster frambuffer.

 

[NateDrake]

It would also mean that Neo is only coming 2017 now. Didn't they said they had 2 designs expected to 2016, but one end up slipping to 2017?

Honestly, I'm not sure. Haven't been keeping up with AMD SoC wins and their statement concerning the three wins.

I guess we'll know soon enough as someone will buy and dissect the system once it launches next week.

 

[onQ123]

Oh boy, onQ123 and mister media X in one thread.

I'm still waiting to see your reaction when Neo games are 4K

I highly doubt that an upgraded PS4 will render games in 4K (not counting indies). Especially if Sony is going to sell it without a taking a loss on each unit. Reading your posts in this thread I can't shake the feeling that you're massively underestimating the power required to render games in 4K at playable framerates.
.

 

[Caayn]

I'm still waiting to see your reaction when Neo games are 4K

I'll happily eat crow when I see a game on the Neo with PS4 level graphics running native 3840*2160.

 

[Impulsor]

I thought Microsoft stated clearly with full direct response saying that games will not have any performance boost and the only thing that could improve the image quality is the HDR.

PSP 2000 had double the ram but it was only for the internet browser. New 3DS had a massive spec bump in comparison but Pokemon X struggles exactly the same as the old 3DS

OS speed improvement is very possible though

New 3ds DOES have better graphics and performance in some games though.

Hyrule Warriors Legends, both MH4U and MHG.

 

[c0de]

I'll happily eat crow when I see a game on the Neo with PS4 level graphics running native 3840*2160.

Same here.

 

[Locuza]

The Radeon Pro WX4100 will be using a fully enabled P11 chip, which does have 16 CUs:

In terms of underlying hardware we’re looking at a fully enabled Polaris 11 GPU, with 1024 SPs (16 CUs), clocked at no less than 975MHz boost.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10521/amd-announces-radeon-pro-wx-series-wx-4100-wx-5100-wx-7100-bring-polaris-to-pros

The RX460 is only using 14 CUs but with 56 TMUs, the 48 number is just wrong.

[...]
Polaris now supports both FP16 as well as FP32. PS Neo performance at FP32 will be 4.2TF while on FP16 will be double that which is 8.4TF.

It supports native FP16 Instructions but the peak performance is the same as under FP32, 4,2 TF.
Currently AMD does not offer an implementation with two packed FP16 Instructions for double throughput.