So you took a science class and decided that 2 + 2 = 5. Your teacher must have been great.
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I'm an Atheist and i hate it.
- Thread starter nkarafo
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So you took a science class and decided that 2 + 2 = 5. Your teacher must have been great.
Bounceounce
Member
Chances are you wouldn't care much if you were religious as a child like most former believers now atheists and really most believers,the grass is always greener and all that.
You just love the idea.
You just love the idea.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Uh, well I don't know. However we can view our planet history + solar system history and make some good guesses of some things. Like having giant gas giants in the outer part of the system have probably saved our asses due to having a celestial body guard. Our planet history shows that humans are the only species to ever evolve to this point of intelligence and manipulate the planet to this degree.
You can look at the size of the galaxy and say "oh well you can't say it's luck because there is so much room for it to happen, as well as time".
And I say, no, because the age of the solar system is a factor, the make up of the system is a factor, and just because we are only on a single planet, it doesn't negate all the factors that have had to happen to bring us to be.
The universe being big doesn't remove our existence of being significant in terms of chance/circumstance and the simple fact of influences each others lives. You don't have to have a "we're nothing" attitude because you don't believe in god.
UncleSporky
Member
This is completely unrelated, though just as buzzword/catchphrasey as what I was criticizing.
It's the emphasis on smugly attempting to remove oneself from the equation, trying to be above the rabble somehow. "Everything else is about what you believe, but this one is different, this is about what you don't believe."
Well no, not really. Atheists still have plenty of beliefs. For one, they believe that others who base their lives on belief in a higher power are making a mistake.
Primethius
Banned
Your thinking too much about it for my tastes.
Just don't think about that stuff I guess? Life's pretty chill when you stop worrying about stuff like that. Just enjoy space, science and what not.
Just don't think about that stuff I guess? Life's pretty chill when you stop worrying about stuff like that. Just enjoy space, science and what not.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
That's not Atheism. It's philosophical pessimism.
Think of Cole from True Detective.
Cormac McCarthy's characters also deal with the subject.
Think of Cole from True Detective.
Cormac McCarthy's characters also deal with the subject.
JordanN
Banned
Even if god exists, it's the fact that he/she has never revealed itself ever that makes me not care.
All the stories/evidence of god always come from biased sources. God conveniently reveals himself to a specific person and no one else. It even defeats the idea that god could be universal because every corner of the world has a different definition of who it could be.
Semantics aside, my point is that their beliefs are indistinguishable from knowing a fact because of the very nature of religious beliefs.
kavanf1
Member
I think you need to read up on what atheism is. That some atheists may hold certain beliefs is irrelevant to their atheism. Atheism is simply absence of belief in a higher power.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
You should fuck off with that. Seek therapy? Are you serious? Get a grip man.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
To be fair, "death" and "nothingness" are human concepts as well. We understand our place in the greater universe about as well as a fetus in the womb understands life after birth.
While I think it's a bit close-minded to fervently believe in any specific religious interpretation of existence, I also think it's similarly strange to vehemently deny the possibility of transitioning to another form of existence after death.
In the most simplistic sense, if you only believe what you physically see and experience for yourself, then you have no reason to rule out a continued existence. You've never stopped existing since your consciousness was formed, there's no evidence that death will change that.
While I think it's a bit close-minded to fervently believe in any specific religious interpretation of existence, I also think it's similarly strange to vehemently deny the possibility of transitioning to another form of existence after death.
In the most simplistic sense, if you only believe what you physically see and experience for yourself, then you have no reason to rule out a continued existence. You've never stopped existing since your consciousness was formed, there's no evidence that death will change that.
There is a difference between thinking there may be something superior and believing in God as is portrayed in abrahamic religions.
I don't believe in the later. I think the former might be right, or may have been right. Whatever. It doesn't really matter. I will just live my life trying my best, helping other people when possible and trying to be happy.
Which is what people should do, anyway, regardless of your beliefs.
mentallyinept
Banned
It makes a difference to the people in the next generation. That has meaning.
therealist
Member
People who believe in god have a greater sense of peace about how the world will turn out, no doubt about it. It's not like an atheist is any more "enlightened" than a believer. There's just as much proof that God doesn't exist as proof that he does exist.
What's better? Believing that when you die you go to heaven? Or believing that when you die, you cease to exist?
What's better? Believing that when you die you go to heaven? Or believing that when you die, you cease to exist?
capitalCORN
Member
If were going argue to the finest point, there's no difference between delusion and hope. The only testing by society is strictly based on norms and culture. The vast majority of ancient beliefs systems have a long history of already being tampered and modified over history. What you believe now is really an endlessly iterated message. No pure signal exists.
There is meaning to me. I don't like to feel to be an asshole that don't have empathy with other human beings. That is enough reason for me.
No one will likely remember your name in a thousand years. Your face, your deeds will probably be lost to time. If you look at things on a geological scale things don't "matter".
I don't live on a geological scale, though. I'm not a continental plate. What I do in the one life I know for sure I get is forever etched in history's stone as a thing that happened. It's up to me to decide what's carved there.
On that personal scale, things do matter a great deal, both to me and those I interact with. Kindness matters. Respect matters. Love matters. Community matters. All that lovey dovey Hallmark stuff you'd find scribbled in the margins of a lovesick high school freshman's textbook? It all matters. Not for a trillion years, but for a year, a week, an hour, a minute. For the period of time where your actions resonate in your life and the lives of others, they matter.
I don't live on a geological scale, though. I'm not a continental plate. What I do in the one life I know for sure I get is forever etched in history's stone as a thing that happened. It's up to me to decide what's carved there.
On that personal scale, things do matter a great deal, both to me and those I interact with. Kindness matters. Respect matters. Love matters. Community matters. All that lovey dovey Hallmark stuff you'd find scribbled in the margins of a lovesick high school freshman's textbook? It all matters. Not for a trillion years, but for a year, a week, an hour, a minute. For the period of time where your actions resonate in your life and the lives of others, they matter.
Pantaghana
Member
What? No, no there isn't any proof of any deity existing, from the gods of ancient Egypt all the way to abrahamic religions.
It will be like they were never born no matter what you do. Either way, it's all the same in the end.
I've always just dealt with it OP. I was extremely homophobic, transphobic, sexist, and racist when I was religious. Now that I'm an atheist I feel I no longer am bound to a book that tells me to act that way. I'd rather live in a world where we're all a cosmic accident than one that has a god that tells you to hate people for who they are.
UncleSporky
Member
Sure, and theism is simply absence of belief in the correctness of atheism.
kavanf1
Member
You could view it like that, or you could view it as writing a book and passing it down for the next generation to read and learn from.
Monocle
Member
It's pretty easy once you learn enough about science, philosophy, and logic. Nothing in nature points to a design. Quite the opposite, actually. The universe and living beings look precisely as they should if they arose from natural processes over vast spans of time.
The evidence and arguments could hardly be more clear. They get clearer all the time, as the frontier of scientific discovery advances on. You've got to be capable of being honest with yourself, and willing to overcome your own biases, though. Fear of death, and the corresponding desire to believe in some sort of escape, some kinder alternative to mortality, is compelling. Magical thinking is a tough thing to move past, too, depending on your upbringing and natural curiosity. Also, you've got to get used to taking comfort in transience, or else finding a sort of equanimity through philosophy, appreciation, hedonism, or whatever else speaks to you.
It's a lot of responsibility to find meaning in life, if you allow yourself to really contemplate your place in a universe that is incapable of caring about you. No wonder so many people are so eager to give up control to ideologies, overbearing partners, professional pursuits, and so on.
nkarafo
Member
The burden of proof is on the person who makes the original claim. Originally we have no knowledge of god until someone claims there is. He has to prove it first. It's as if i tell you that there is an invisible robot from another dimension dancing on planet Mars right now. It's impossible to prove me wrong but that doesn't mean you have to take me seriously.
Doesn't matter what makes me feel better. What matters is what i actually believe. I can't lie to myself believing in something just because it sounds good.
kavanf1
Member
No, theism is belief in a god or gods. There would be no need for atheism if theism wasn't a thing.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
Depends of your faith. The Catholic Church, as far as it claims and its adherents believe, is the original Church founded by Jesus Christ and his apostles after his resurrection. The story of Jesus Christ's actions was recorded in several documents, 4 of them were kept later on as they were the most commonly used by the different communities, had the most details and accuracy, and supported the most the doctrine that the Church had since it was founded and kept untouched. It is in this story (the gospel) that Jesus teaches, as a Jewish prophet, what God himself wants from us as well as his own divine nature, and his role as the Messiah of Judaism was confirmed by his resurrection (as only God can revive life, so if Jesus had God's support, he certainly must have told the truth about God).
So, the Church is founded as a cult to Jesus, with its original dogma unchanged. From the beginning various documents are used and shared by different Christian communities and the Catholic Bible as we know it is put together about 300 years after the Catholic/Orthodox Church is founded (the split happened 1,000 years later and different Orthodox Churches have their own Bible canons). This includes Jewish scripture as well as Christian scripture. By analyzing what is believed by the religion to tell us about God, we can know how God is like and describe him in the best way possible (which led to the Trinity, which is a contradiction and difficult to reason with on purpose). That does not change - the Church has already established what we do and what we don't know about what God wants and what he does with us, and God bringing about natural disaster is not part of it.
See Luke 13:1-9. Jesus specifically talks about how certain people who died because of an accident were not worse sinners or more guilty than anyone else. They did not trigger the wrath of God and get punished for it. Death just happens and we are pressed to repent before it can happen to us.
Now, the problem is that I only talked about the Catholic interpretation. We know how many different denominations of Christianity there are, and when you take other Abrahamic religions (with their own denominations) into account it becomes a nightmare. When you take other non-Abrahamic religions into account, there's no trying to even discuss it, as they'll all have something different to say about natural disasters. But that's how it is - each denomination of Christianity has their own doctrine, and the answer to some questions will be
Also I'm not a Catholic so I'll gladly be corrected if I said something wrong. But death happens not because God wants it to but because we brought it upon ourselves with original sin, and God does not punish those he deems unworthy or cause suffering en masse because "mysterious ways lol" but he does allow the world to have both life and death; both happiness and suffering, so that no one will be advantaged over another and we can all make the right or the wrong choices, both toward ourselves and toward others.
I think OP has taken the inverse of theology, which is to say he's also taken a terrible extreme.
Heavily religious people say everything has a purpose, so the OP probably feels nothing does. Why not get to the middle: what is, just is? Things are as they are because they are.
Can one see purposeless in a completely content fashion? To see no necessity as liberation? To see that whatever exists just does, and that's enough? Try and get there, OP. It's the most grounded view we can probably get to.
Heavily religious people say everything has a purpose, so the OP probably feels nothing does. Why not get to the middle: what is, just is? Things are as they are because they are.
Can one see purposeless in a completely content fashion? To see no necessity as liberation? To see that whatever exists just does, and that's enough? Try and get there, OP. It's the most grounded view we can probably get to.
mentallyinept
Banned
Sure.
But why does that matter and the impact of my actions on the next generation doesn't?
UncleSporky
Member
And atheism is a belief that theism is incorrect. That is something that necessarily follows from accepting atheism as a truthful representation of reality.
Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in
it!'
-Douglas Adams
OP, despite the nihilist slant of your post it sounds to me like you need to do something to put your ego in check.
"But my sense and logic always tell me that existence is a stupid mystery that nobody will ever solve and at some point nobody sentient will exist to know about it."
You're ending gives it all away. Let go of your ego, embrace the Self, find meaning in things that actually enhance your existence and stop giving power to thoughts that will never help you.
And if the idea of eternal nothingness continues to bother you, ruminate on the eternity you didn't exist before suddenly waking up here on Earth. I bet you can't say a single negative thing about that experience (or complete lack thereof) nor can anyone.
"But my sense and logic always tell me that existence is a stupid mystery that nobody will ever solve and at some point nobody sentient will exist to know about it."
You're ending gives it all away. Let go of your ego, embrace the Self, find meaning in things that actually enhance your existence and stop giving power to thoughts that will never help you.
And if the idea of eternal nothingness continues to bother you, ruminate on the eternity you didn't exist before suddenly waking up here on Earth. I bet you can't say a single negative thing about that experience (or complete lack thereof) nor can anyone.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
What's wrong with therapy? A therapist can be secular counselor. Same as people going to priest for moral or life advice.
"Do I need a special word to describe myself as someone who doesn't believe in Santa or in the Tooth Fairy?"
Mr Waluigi
Banned
Also OP don't think that the issue of heaven & hell and of grace is easy. Pretty much every Christian denomination will disagree on what heaven and hell are exactly, and on what it takes to be forgiven. The extremes are so large that sometimes it comes off as different faiths, and different communities will have a different focus on the afterlife too.
I don't need to tell you again that you don't need religion to be happy. And religious people who claim that you can't be truly happy without religion either A) were raised into religion and don't know much else or B) had seriously terrible lives before becoming religious. I'm a Christian so I don't think you shouldn't look into it, but I don't think you should look into it for the wrong reasons either.
I don't need to tell you again that you don't need religion to be happy. And religious people who claim that you can't be truly happy without religion either A) were raised into religion and don't know much else or B) had seriously terrible lives before becoming religious. I'm a Christian so I don't think you shouldn't look into it, but I don't think you should look into it for the wrong reasons either.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
The thing is, it's not atheists who are 'deluding' themselves. We face that reality every day. Speaking for myself, I've embraced it on its terms. As others have said, it's actually quite liberating to know we make our own meaning, despite its impermanence.
OP sounds depressed, therapy could help. What's wrong with that?
As an atheist I never really struggle with finding meaning in my life.
I do, however, feel some envy for religious people I know who seem to have deep social communities that they enjoy and are able to rely on when in need. My SO and I do not have big families or large friend groups (we are rather introverted).
I do, however, feel some envy for religious people I know who seem to have deep social communities that they enjoy and are able to rely on when in need. My SO and I do not have big families or large friend groups (we are rather introverted).
I don't understand. It doesn't matter because it'll be just like you never did it eventually.
Depend what heaven your talking about. There are many versions from many different religions. Which one? You probable thinking about the Bible version.
Lets dive just a little on that heaven. The downsides... endless fear of going to hell. Feel like a shit for just being born, after all original sin. Follow rules that don't make any sense. Rules that are pretty awful, unethical or just evil.
Yeah, no thanks.
CharminUltra
Member
I'm an atheist and I marvel at how awesome this world is every day. There's no need to buy into some batshit crazy bs in order to be awed by the universe.
I can relate with this. I think this is why there are such large groups of essentially secular people who practice religion strictly as tradition.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
In my opinion making your own meaning is deluding yourself. It's a shield to protect you from the ultimate truth and reality of your situation (as you believe it). It's totally human and understandable but I feel like that's the logical conclusion in a world where we are just a random accident with no ultimate purpose or reason for existence.
Honestly, how can therapy convince you that nothingness doesn't destroy meaning? It just seems like reality to me. What can a therapist say?
capitalCORN
Member
That's a social matter, not a theological one. It's been said a million times, but life is what you make it. You are directly responsible for yourself. Not gonna say it's easy. but maybe rooting yourself in a social cause may help.
I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss our biology. We do have a purpose in life, it's a rather simple one. One that vibrates as a primal urge sometimes. Maybe you think we as humans are above such causes, but we're as liable to fall to a disease as anything else on this planet. Your parents grew proud when they had you, and the same could happen to you.
A good therapist, in addition to saying things to you, listens, asks questions, and has a real dialogue with you. They're not going to tell you what to believe and leave it at that.
UncleSporky
Member
You can come up with one if you wish. After all, there aren't special words for those who do believe in such things either.
Of course you could always decide that those people are called "fools," and then they could decide that those opposed are called "morons," but that's hardly productive.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
What is the ultimate truth as a concept?
SyenceLabb
Member
Give your life it's own meaning. That's the beauty of being a homo sapien.
I think you are just being edgy and don't really believe or act as this was true.
Why you bothering to visiting this forum and post if after all there are no meaning. You doing this because there are meaning for you in doing it... The same is true to other people that care about the future generations.
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