That's not how prejudices and bigotry works
I honestly don't care how it works, but are you saying that's it's wrong of the guy to be cautious with his track record?
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Roma Fleeing the E.U.s Broken Promises Seek Asylum in the U.S
- Thread starter Piecake
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I honestly don't care how it works, but are you saying that's it's wrong of the guy to be cautious with his track record?
It certainly isn't right to assume things about people you don't know based on what kind of group they belong to, especially if it's something out of their control like their ethnicity.
Like, people are dying in America right now because of this.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I wish UK gypsies all the best with their move to the US. I'd even be willing to chip in for the flights! Are they leaving the caravans here, or having them shipped over?
ClosingADoor
Member
What do you mean, they don't get adequate housing? If they move somewhere willingly, they should take care of their own housing needs and income, not expect the government to pick up the tab. That goes for everyone (not fleeing from war or disaster). I don't see why the government should provide housing for people that are moving somewhere. I can't just go to another city or country and say "give me a house".
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Both are thought to be of indian origin.
……forgetit
Member
RocknRola
Member
Huh. Would have never gotten that. The more you know, I guess.
fabricated backlash
Member
They are widely seen as lazy layabouts and open racism against them is culturally accepted across Europe. Add in the resulting tendency to segregate themselves and economic hardships forcing many of them into a life of crime and you get a self feeding circle of awful.
You have examples of successful outreach on both sides with Roma trying to get into local politics or communities trying to accomodate them with job and education, but it's rarely successful and thus fuels racial stereotypes on one side and mistrust on the other
SomedayTheFire
Member
I meant they can't get adequate housing. My b.
Well yes, but you could always ditch the family like i have known a few people do. I'm not saying that it's easy but the families i have known have been fairly tame but i wouldn't say that they have contributed to society in any way. And like i said even in guard training they teach you to handle Romas, where the women tend to hide the goods if you are in a shop or who to talk to and how not to escalate things. Also, i don't think the US is good place to compare because i don't think that people have problem with their ethnicity, rather than their way of life which you easily spot by their traditional clothes they wear all the time, granted some of them look pretty cool but i think that it's the clothes they wear that brand them and not their skin color.
Edit: according to the ministry of employment and the economy of Finland over 50% of the gypsies living here are unemployed, 25%~ never finish elementary school.
Hypnotoad
Member
Nice way of shifting all the blame for their failings away from the Sinti and Roma themselves. Of course the host societies are to blame, not cultural practices unfit for modern society.
It's nice that Europe is advanced to the point where you can be treated more poorly despite your own personal circumstances, choices, along with systemic and societal injustices, based on the clothes you wear signifying your identity with the group of people you were born to, as opposed to the color of your skin.
Should Muslim women drop the headscarf if they don't want to harassed? Should black people not dress in a "ghetto" style if they want to get shot by cops less? This type of reasoning is ridiculous and ignores the actual problem of plain discrimination, prejudice and racism.
The recent Roma migrations across Europe has been very visible to me here in Sweden at least. When I grew up I don't think I ever met any and the only time I heard about them was in racist sounding tirades about them having apparently stolen something.
Nowadays though I see them everywhere. They sit around begging for money outside almost every store and harass people for money at train station. It's not that rare to read articles about them squatting somewhere and being impossible to get rid of either. It's quite difficult to keep a neutral perspective of them as a people, but at the same time I know that these are just the worst (and sadly most visible) examples. My parents' neighbors are Roma, and I wouldn't have ever known if nobody told me, they just seemed to be from some kind of Southern European-ish culture. That's the thing though, "good" Roma are more or less invisible and people only see the "bad" ones.
The term Roma has also been poisoned incredibly quickly. Roma became commonplace because Gypsy was considered offensive but now it's more or less seen as just as bad, although with slightly different connotations. Gypsies steal, while Roma sit around begging for money.
Nowadays though I see them everywhere. They sit around begging for money outside almost every store and harass people for money at train station. It's not that rare to read articles about them squatting somewhere and being impossible to get rid of either. It's quite difficult to keep a neutral perspective of them as a people, but at the same time I know that these are just the worst (and sadly most visible) examples. My parents' neighbors are Roma, and I wouldn't have ever known if nobody told me, they just seemed to be from some kind of Southern European-ish culture. That's the thing though, "good" Roma are more or less invisible and people only see the "bad" ones.
The term Roma has also been poisoned incredibly quickly. Roma became commonplace because Gypsy was considered offensive but now it's more or less seen as just as bad, although with slightly different connotations. Gypsies steal, while Roma sit around begging for money.
Very interesting thread. I have friends that have had very bad experiences with Roma and would be labeled racist. Others who have had bad experiences, by can rationalize them due to other (non-cultural) factors.
I come from Surrey, Canada, where "visible minorities" are in the majority, and a lot are wealthier than a significant part of the "Caucasian" population, who were quite poor. Older generations were racist due to people having cultural differences, but there wasn't the widespread crime by single minority groups that could foster massive racism by the "native" (assimilated settler) population. Caucasians thugs were just as scary as other thugs.
In Japan, it's much easier to think racist because certain groups of people are very commonly seen in the same situation: doing jobs a middle class would consider morally questionable.
I can only imagine someone with constant close contact with Roma in some countries may find it even harder.
I'm not justifying racism, but if there are areas that are more and less racism, there's got to be sociological variables, and if they are understood, I feel it's a lot easier to talk across nations, and (ideally) eliminate racism.
And I object to the person who said "you know why" about Germany.
I come from Surrey, Canada, where "visible minorities" are in the majority, and a lot are wealthier than a significant part of the "Caucasian" population, who were quite poor. Older generations were racist due to people having cultural differences, but there wasn't the widespread crime by single minority groups that could foster massive racism by the "native" (assimilated settler) population. Caucasians thugs were just as scary as other thugs.
In Japan, it's much easier to think racist because certain groups of people are very commonly seen in the same situation: doing jobs a middle class would consider morally questionable.
I can only imagine someone with constant close contact with Roma in some countries may find it even harder.
I'm not justifying racism, but if there are areas that are more and less racism, there's got to be sociological variables, and if they are understood, I feel it's a lot easier to talk across nations, and (ideally) eliminate racism.
And I object to the person who said "you know why" about Germany.
Those ghetto clothes probably wouldn't be as good as a proper suit if you were in an job interview, not sure how much would a change of clothing help you in america, and the thing with roma is that it's not 1 = 1 the same with skin color, their clothes tell more about their way of life which doesn't really gel all that well with our society.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
AA have white privilege compared to roma. Romas are comparable to australian aboriginal in treatment
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Maybe they think the US has more opportunities than Germany? And they claim to be refugees fleeing from persecution so they can get a green card more easily?
It's a common tactic among economic migrants from the Balkans who want to move to western/northern Europe but would normally be refused. So they claim to be refugees and overburden the asylum systems of countries like Germany and the Netherlands. Tens of thousands of Albanians and Kosovars went to countries like Germany and the Netherlands, claiming they were refugees. They have no chance whatsoever they they gain official refugee status, but still they came.
The issue with the gypsies is complex, and usually difficult to understand from an outside perspective. They are either well integrated into the local culture (sometimes making a subculture) or not at all in the most radical way you could imagine.
In Spain, for example, the Andalusian gypsies (which I believe are not Roma, but Kale), who have lived in Andalusia for centuries, are among the best representatives of flamenco culture (the dance and the music). Many flamenco artists in southern Spain are gypsies, and although they usually live within their own communities, they are well integrated and respected all across Andalusia and Spain in general.
On the other hand we have more recent migrants (since the 80s), usually Romanian gypsies, who are Roma, who have not been able to integrate at all. They are given housing and usually trash them hard, everyone fears having them as neighbours. I've heard countless stories about them going to the emergency room for whatever cause with like 30 family members, yelling and shouting, demanding to be treated first (or else) and threatening nurses, etc.
As I said, it's complex. Discrimination against Roma people is never justified, but at the same time many do not even try the slighest to integrate. Actually, there are many well-integrated Roma people in Spain (who attended university, have normal lives, etc.) do not usually identify as Roma anymore, given that in many cases they face prejudice from the Roma themselves.
In Spain, for example, the Andalusian gypsies (which I believe are not Roma, but Kale), who have lived in Andalusia for centuries, are among the best representatives of flamenco culture (the dance and the music). Many flamenco artists in southern Spain are gypsies, and although they usually live within their own communities, they are well integrated and respected all across Andalusia and Spain in general.
On the other hand we have more recent migrants (since the 80s), usually Romanian gypsies, who are Roma, who have not been able to integrate at all. They are given housing and usually trash them hard, everyone fears having them as neighbours. I've heard countless stories about them going to the emergency room for whatever cause with like 30 family members, yelling and shouting, demanding to be treated first (or else) and threatening nurses, etc.
As I said, it's complex. Discrimination against Roma people is never justified, but at the same time many do not even try the slighest to integrate. Actually, there are many well-integrated Roma people in Spain (who attended university, have normal lives, etc.) do not usually identify as Roma anymore, given that in many cases they face prejudice from the Roma themselves.
since maybe 5 years ago there has been a huge influx of roma beggars in sweden. nowadays every single supermarket in our country seems to have 2-3 romani sitting outside begging for money where before you only saw the occasional swedish homeless person in big cities. Even when visiting small isolated communities in the north there'll be romani beggars sitting outside the supermarket. They are usually dirty, spit on the ground, keep lots of stuff around them and are pushy with their begging often shouting "money" and making angry faces if you ignore them. Moreover they are also on the subway, playing accordions and violins and rattling their coin-cans for money. it's a headache when you've worked all day and just want to travel home in peace. I know it sounds like a minor thing but all of this wears on you when you experience it day after day for years. Personally I was robbed by a romani two years ago, so I've just about had my fill with this issue. I will say that obviously there are swedish romani people who contribute to society just like anyone else, the beggars I'm describing are recent economic migrants who are organized and doesn't seem to have any interest in integrating.
Already Torn
Banned
Makes sense. Aren't Roma one of the most persecuted groups in the world because central/east Europe never had a civil rights movement, allowing open racism to be socially acceptable? I would leave too.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Reading some of the responses here I am glad my great-great-grandparents came to America instead of remain in Europe.
ClosingADoor
Member
The begging stuff in big cities is mostly gang related. They'll pick up people in poor Eastern European countries, drive them to Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, etc, and force them to beg on the street. All the money they get will go straight to the gang bosses.
it's not just big cities. you'll find them even in small communities across all of sweden.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
British travellers I assume?
Jeez, I sure don't detect pure hatred in this post.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
My great-great-grandparents? They were Slovak Roma. Started here in the states as musicians until my great-grandfather married the daughter of Welsh immigrants. After that we seemed to have lost the identity of being Romani as it wasn't until 6-7 years ago that my uncle dug through the family history to find it. I just get the feeling had my great-great-grandparents remained in Europe that they would have been treated negatively and people would not have been so welcoming of a marriage between my great-grandparents, basically forcing them to stay in their own community and prevent them from assimilating.
Looking at history, it may be there's a fundamental incompatibility between nomadic and settled cultures.
From my personal experience? I used to live very close to a designated traveller site, so every couple of years a group would come and set up for a few month - which, as a kid, largely meant keeping an eye out so you didn't get the shit kicked out of you by their kids.
Then we'd spend the next few months clearing up after them, and not being allowed to play on the field because of the needles that were left behind.
On the other hand, that kind of drug problem, disregard for locals and hostility could be explained as a symptom of opression and hatred. It's a complex issue, with more depth to it than just "Mean, racist europeans" and "Saintlike, oppressed travellers".
From my personal experience? I used to live very close to a designated traveller site, so every couple of years a group would come and set up for a few month - which, as a kid, largely meant keeping an eye out so you didn't get the shit kicked out of you by their kids.
Then we'd spend the next few months clearing up after them, and not being allowed to play on the field because of the needles that were left behind.
On the other hand, that kind of drug problem, disregard for locals and hostility could be explained as a symptom of opression and hatred. It's a complex issue, with more depth to it than just "Mean, racist europeans" and "Saintlike, oppressed travellers".
I can't speak for Slovakia, but here in the UK I think the Roma are hated by mostly the same people that hate immigrants. However on top of that there is much greater apathy from the "non-hateful" crowd, probably fueled by the Roma's failure (refusal?) to integrate.
Basically the treatment of immigrants is a hot topic, whereas most people prefer to forget the Roma exist until they are living nearby (at which point they will be shoo'd away).
(This is just my own observation, I wouldn't consider myself remotely educated on the Roma or their situation across the UK/Europe.)
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Now that I think about it there's a very real possibility my ancestors would have been killed had they remained in Europe, given their proximity to that eventual Hitler fellow and the whole porajmos ordeal he and his allies initiated. I wonder if they noticed a growing hatred in the region and sought to escape it early, or if they were just lucky.
It's just a cultural issue. Roma/Traveller culture is incompatible with modern European culture. They need to send their kids to school and they need to stop moving around while they *have* kids so they can get a decent education and integrate into their host societies.
We shouldn't pretend that any European state has a moral obligation to tolerate parallel societies at right-angles to the mainstream.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's really our fault for having such poorly guarded copper wiring.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
Brittish travellers, which are often referred to gypsies, are ethnically the same people as the britts. If they choose to live a normal life, they wouldnt face too many challenges. The same cant be said about the other roma groups, they are hated for their existence alone.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Wouldn't they be perpendicular societies then?
hehe
Outside of this recent wave of Islamophobia (part of a greater cycle of nativism) the United States is generally very welcoming to refugees. In the aftermath of Vietnam we took in over 1.2 million southeast Asians. We admit roughly 85,000 general refugees every year. If it wasn't for right wing fear mongering we'd probably be bringing in hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees instead of just 10,000.
I can't speak for other countries and their problems, but in municipalities with significant Roma communities in the Netherlands, they were often over represented in crime statistics. Of course there's a chance police bias plays a role.
Source
The gist of this: 25% of Roma teenagers (younger then 18) had a criminal record. Above 18, 75% of Roma in the municipality of Nieuwegein had a criminal record. For non-Roma in the region, that's respectively 2% and 15%. This was analyzed quite a while ago (2009) so no idea what the current situation is.
Source
The gist of this: 25% of Roma teenagers (younger then 18) had a criminal record. Above 18, 75% of Roma in the municipality of Nieuwegein had a criminal record. For non-Roma in the region, that's respectively 2% and 15%. This was analyzed quite a while ago (2009) so no idea what the current situation is.
entremet
Member
Universally?
I've never heard of them and their treatment until recently. Seriously doubt it's universal, unless Europe is considered all encompassing--it's not.
Dude Abides
Banned
Muslims next amirite?
Also the article says they're leaving the EU, not the UK.
DragonSworne
Banned
I looked up some pictures on google about Roma people and they look awesome. Shame that there is so much hate for them in Europe, maybe they'll find peace in the US, this country sure is big enough for everyone.
EdwardTeach
Member
Roma= name for "gypsies" who are found throughout Europe.
Name has nothing to do with the country Romania or being Romanian though there are many roma in Romania.
In terms of Nordics, there have been a Romani population living in Norway, Sweden and Finland for hundreds of years, they number in tens of thousands. Historically there's been a prejudice against them, for example many performing artists adopted pseudonyms to mask their heritage in order to get accepted in the mainstream.
These prejudices do still exist, but discrimination has been falling. With that the integration with the mainstream society has been improving. That is not to say there aren't problems, Romani people are still overepresented in crime statistics for example, but the trend has been positive overall. With integration many have become sort of invisible in the mainstream.
The recent influx of beggars from Southeastern Europe is a different development. There is a link to organized crime and human trafficing, where people are sent to rich countries to beg and the bosses reap the rewards. However it's not all that, many do come voluntarily to do the same thing in hopes of better income. It's not just random individuals coming in, but there's a larger movement behind it.
This is a bit similar to the case of European asylum seekers in Europe.
I can only parrot what the director of the local reception centre said about this problem. The European asylum seekers mostly know they won't get a refugee status when they come in, the same with immigration officials. However, whenever an asylum seeker comes in, their claim has to be processed which takes at least few months. During this time they usually claim a small allowance for living costs - and that is what people come in for.
Come in, live frugally for a few months to save money and then get sent back with an amount of money in the pocket that would be considered very small by Western standards but a somewhat substantial sum back home. It's a way for poor, usually from rural villages, to get a little extra income.
The difference between these and aformentioned Roma and beggars coming in is that these European asylum seekers use the system to get money from the governments while the beggars come in to get money from the people. The latter usually stay outside the official system.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
This is what most Europeans see in their mind when they think of gypsies:
Americans who have been to cities like Paris or Barcelona should be familiar with gypsy beggars.
QuicheFontaine
Member
No, and that's an extremely offensive thing to say by the way.
And the UK is in the EU, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.
Frozenprince
Banned
You guys do know that the US does have Romani living here right?
So is calling an entire ethnic group thieves and mocking them as a stereotype.
So is calling an entire ethnic group thieves and mocking them as a stereotype.
……forgetit
Member
I am so confused by this I don't know what to say. Blatantly racist against roma but muslims, what? Don't be offensive.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
This is what most Europeans see in their mind when they think of gypsies:
Americans who have been to cities like Paris or Barcelona should be familiar with gypsy beggars.
This is what eastern european gypsy neighborhood usually looks like. Or what eastern europeans think when they hear the word gypsy
Frozenprince
Banned
Here's a fun thought experiment.
Take all the posts about the Roma in these threads, and replace gypsies/roma with Jews.
See how your posts read then.
Take all the posts about the Roma in these threads, and replace gypsies/roma with Jews.
See how your posts read then.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Where was my racism? I just wished the gypsies well on their journey to America. They'll finally be free of the awful persecution they face here in the UK, and the US will certainly be culturally enriched by their arrival. Talk about a win-win!
Frozenprince
Banned
……forgetit
Member
Right.....
Seriously a ton of the responses I'm this thread are out right disgusting
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