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[Bronetta]

Ive beaten Demons Souls, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne and they most definitely are hard games.

Im going through Dark Souls 3 now and anytime you aggro two of even basic mobs, youre at a serious risk of getting overwhelmed.

Two of those log enemies in the woods or the crow enemies are extremely difficult to tackle head on. Its all about pacing and spacing. How many times have you exploited enemy AI through doorways or pillars? If they games wereny hard you wouldnt have to kite regular enemies away all the time

 

[rackham]

lol, so your argument for gatekeeping is to double down on gatekeeping. Got it.

my argument has been made very clearly about what would be lost with an easy mode. There are plenty of people here who have already mentioned the fact that there already IS an easy mode. You just summon other people to play with you.


Also, stop replying to me. You've brought up no counter arguments and your argument has basically been "but but"

So if you can't play with the easy mode the game has already given you, stick to youtube videos and leave your terrible arguments there.

Seriously. It's interesting how many people ask for a difficulty setting when the easy mode actually does already exist.

don't bother explaining to these people. They have no good argument other than their sense of entitlement.

 

[oneils]

It took me about 90hrs to finish demons souls. I had to grind to level 80 or something to be able to beat some of the bosses.

I think I got to the first boss in dark souls.

It's not a perception. These games are just too difficult to me. I enjoy video games but I am not good at them. My reflexes and manual dexterity are poor. I never could play platformers or metroidvania type games, as a kid. I usually played RPGs or shooters on easy (still do).

So it's not necessarily a perception. Sometimes you just have to believe what people say. If it's not difficult for you, it does not mean it isn't difficult for others.

 

[Slaythe]

Yea, I think people feel it's a game to just put your balls in a vice and crush them and it's not. It's not about being difficult to be difficult

Tell that to dark souls 2.

 

[ghibli99]

It's more annoying when the opposite happens, where players say these games are easy, that they killed all the bosses first try, etc. Happens in every Souls thread, but whatever. These games can be very difficult for a lot of players, so I don't think it's a misconception, but perhaps more of a misnomer (I think it mainly started with the PTDE designation).

For me, it's not so much that the games are too hard, but rather that they punish recklessness and lack of observation. It takes a very different style and approach to be successful. Bloodborne is probably as close as the series will ever get to more mainstream accessibility, and even then, much of it can feel foreign, confusing, and intimidating to brand-new players, especially those going in blind.

 

[afternoon delight]

Tell that to dark souls 2.

I solo'd Dark Souls twice including all its DLC, beat Dark Souls II pre-Scholar and I weep like a child trying to beat Dark Souls 2 DLC. Everyone says its the tops but I'm not grinding enough to beat them all solo.

That way leads to madness.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I just started playing SMT Nocturne. I walk outside Ginza, a pack of angels random encountered and guillotined my protagonist on the first turn. Not much I could do, and if I haven't saved that would have erased my progress.

Souls games never stack the deck against you, and they never, EVER erase your progress. You are always getting stronger and continually get rewarded just for trying. You have to learn the combat, but you aren't really punished with anything more than another short stroll to where you already were. Calling them "hard" is tricky for me when the stakes are so incredibly low.

 

[Adam_Vania]

it is the pitiful easiness of all other games that frustrate me. Dark Souls games certainly are tough but it mostly throws into relief how hand-holdy games have become in general. Souls makes other games look bad.

 

[Videospel]

They ARE hard. I've played through Demon's and Dark 1/2, and I love them. But they're challenging and always require you to be on the edge of your seat. That's my definition of hard. It doesn't matter that they are 'fair' and that you can learn how to play them. Mathematics and rock climbing are also fair and learnable, but hard.

So when someone says the games are hard, why would I be frustrated? And if someone says they are easy, that doesn't frustrate me either.

Spoiler

Some of the bosses have made me frustrated

 

[Black_Red]

Yes. Why not just have an option that auto runs the entire game for you? the fact that the option is there means they wasted resources on a very unnecessary feature. Don't believe me that it's unnecessary? Critical and commercial success agree with me.

Same could be said about more diversity in games, "Why are people worried about racism in games when they are selling well?"...

This isnt about the game doubling its sales adding an easy mode. A simple damage modifier would mean more people can play and finish the game and I don't understand how can anyone be against it unless you are extremely worried about the "street cred" of playing Dark Souls.

Just to be clear, I have played every dark souls and I don't think the games are that hard, you just need patience, but some people don't have the time.

Seriously. It's interesting how many people ask for a difficulty setting when the easy mode actually does already exist.

Lots of people dont understand the system or they cant get to the point to summon. Also some people want the game to be easier, that doesnt mean they want to summon an expert player to kill the boss for them since they probably still want to play the game.

 

[SpecialAgentDaleCooper]

my argument has been made very clearly about what would be lost with an easy mode. There are plenty of people here who have already mentioned the fact that there already IS an easy mode. You just summon other people to play with you.


Also, stop replying to me. You've brought up no counter arguments and your argument has basically been "but but"

So if you can't play with the easy mode the game has already given you, stick to youtube videos and leave your terrible arguments there.



don't bother explaining to these people. They have no good argument other than their sense of entitlement.

I've brought up the only counter that matters to the only point you've made. Your entire concern is making sure nobody gets to have the same thing you did without going thru the same effort, apparently because it would somehow take away from your having done so.

Summoning is a poor substitution for an adjustable difficulty, the only time I ever summoned the person who helped me kill the chaos witch was way overpowered for it and after I felt like it was a huge mistake and just robbed myself of the feeling of accomplishment.

Please dont talk to me like I haven't paid my dues and played/completed the game that I was given, I enjoyed it just fine exactly as it was. Made me a fan even. That said I'm not so insecure that I'd be somehow hurt if my buddy who will never finish it as it is had an option to make it less time consuming for himself.

See, when you're an adult, and you've got actual real world obligations you don't always have the time to batter yourself against the repetition and time consumption DS requires, I guess you think that means they don't deserve to play it... ridiculous.

 

[rackham]

I've brought up the only counter that matters to the only point you've made. Your entire concern is making sure I can't enjoy the game! .

Literally already explained how the entire package- difficulty, atmosphere, soundtrack, setting, gameplay makes the series great.

Also, I guess according to you, everyone who's beaten and played the souls games are either not adults, don't have jobs or are amazing gods at gaming.

So if you feel like you don't have the time to not play these games anymore and want an easy mode, then the game just isn't for you. You're already talking like you're owed an easy mode cause you've paid your dues to the difficulty of the past games. That's entitlement.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Try telling that to my friend who is extremely interested in the series and bought DSI and Bloodborne, but can hardly get anywhere in either of them. He was playing them both for a while, looking up strategies to aid him, and to no avail. It's almost weird to me at this point how much he talks about the games and respects them considering he's hardly gotten anywhere in them, and he always talks about wanting to buy DSIII and I'm like "bruh".....

How you gonna try to tell someone that they're wrong for finding a game hard? The heck.

 

[Maneauleau]

Difficulty can be frustrating yes. Not everyone feels like retrying the same thing over and over especially when it's not like an instant reload. You never respawn directly at the boss. Often you need to go online to figure out what item you are missing or that you shouldn't fight that boss yet.

Don't get me wrong I like this game. I think it's a great game that everyone should try if they are into medieval fights, adventure and awesome level design.

But it's a time sinker as well and the time you sink into it is not instantly rewarding. You need to invest time to get good so that's not always the thing you want to do after a long day at work and after putting kids and wife to bed.

Right now I am at the hydra in the forest/swamp thing and I can see it kills me very quickly. I need to go online to look at what to do because I can't survive long enough to figure it out by myself and everytime I need to walk to it, get my souls back, get rid of the golems ... it's a bit off-putting at times.

So right now I am playing Castlevania Aria of Sorrow to relax ^^' I will get back to DS when I finish Castlevania.

 

[Chilled_Eskim01]

It certainly is frustrating. The Souls games have been some of my most memorable experiences in the last decade and I wish others would at least give them a chance before giving up on them. My roommate won't touch the thing because he didn't "get" the combat within 5 seconds, and I was trying to explain that he needed to take his time with it.

Man... it's also a damn shame that so many people echo the stupid claims about the community too. Yes, there will always be the people who unironically say "git gud" to people, but 99% of the time the Soulsbourne community is helpful and fun to play with.

 

[SpiceMelange]

I laugh every time someone thinks the games being hard is the point/game is designed around it.

I don't blame them when the marketing team does stuff like release a "PREPARE TO DIE" edition

 

[horkrux]

I don't disagree, and used such things myself, but that all just emphasises that they are hard as a default, surely? The options available mitigate a clearly greater than standard difficulty, and immediately out the gate. The first enemy in each game can easily and swiftly kill you. I think it super disingenuous to pretend this is normal, or average in anyway. They are built to be hard, mechanically and thematically, offering a player lifelines if they can find them of their own accord which often requires deaths to achieve. I do not doubt that many people did not struggle with them at all, but these people should I feel still be able to acknowledge the obvious.

True, and it can be overwhelming especially in the beginning, which is traditionally easier in most other games. But I've played quite a few games (not necessarily of this gen), where I would have had to lower the difficulty to something like 'easy' to prevent myself from having a bad time every now and then (and sometimes I wouldn't flip that switch).

I guess if you take into account that most people won't finish a particular game, the harder start hits them harder than a difficulty spike midway through a game that started out easier. And since the lack of maps and stuff can be daunting, I can certainly understand that these games are off-putting to many. They just don't ease you in.

 

[Sanctuary]

I laugh every time someone thinks the games being hard is the point/game is designed around it.

The entire "it's so difficult" mentality was coined by generation Xbox 360 players who played mostly press X to win and no penalty for dying games.

Souls games are basically what every single game was like before "experiences" took over.

Yep.

ITT: "Once you use these tactics that took me hours to learn and years of experience playing games, it's not hard at all"

Yeah, no shit. That's every game ever. I guess difficult games simply don't exist.

One of these statements is correct anyway. It doesn't take "hours" to learn specific tactics for even an average player aside from maybe dumb shit like facing Capra your first time blind. For someone who had actually been playing games for years (decades) prior to generation 7, they really aren't hard. Trial and error isn't hard. Learning isn't hard. These aren't twitch games.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

What annoys me is when someone claims the Souls games are hard and another has an aneurysm because their personal opinion has to be wrong.

 

[Fou-Lu]

Do you want tips? Just beat

Spoiler

Seath

yesterday, except for the annoying curse once I didn't have that bad of a time beating it on my 3rd try.

I wouldn't mind some tips, but I am really set on cutting off his tail too.

 

[SpecialAgentDaleCooper]

Literally already explained how the entire package- difficulty, atmosphere, soundtrack, setting, gameplay makes the series great.

Yea and what you fail to comprehend is that a little less difficulty would not impact the atmosphere, sountrack setting or gameplay.

So if you feel like you don't have the time to not play these games anymore and want an easy mode, then the game just isn't for you. You're already talking like you're owed an easy mode cause you've paid your dues to the difficulty of the past games. That's entitlement.

Literally already explained that *I* have taken the time to play Dark Souls, and I'm not saying *I'M* owed anything at all. I'm not sure why you keep coming at me like I said I'm entitled to shit.

All I'm saying is having taken the time to play the game and learn and "git gud" I'm not some elitist gatekeeping child who feels like I'd be out something if someone else got to experience so much of what makes it a great game without going thru the exact same struggles I did.

 

[Evil Monkey DTT]

When the ps4 trophies show over 35% of players beat forgotten king.... the series can't be that bad to beat.

 

[Adam_Vania]

See, when you're an adult, and you've got actual real world obligations you don't always have the time to batter yourself against the repetition and time consumption DS requires, I guess you think that means they don't deserve to play it... ridiculous.

if you are an adult with real world obligations what are you doing wasting any time playing video games?

seems like the solution here is for that kind of person to play casual and light games. they are designed for people who "don't have the time". the free market has provided for you!

also the idea that summoning doesn't count is ridiculous. it's still very easy to get killed in a boss fight even with a summon if you don't know what you are doing. the game gives us an easy mode, it's just inconvenient for people's arguments.

 

[Sanctuary]

Yea and what you fail to comprehend is that a little less difficulty would not impact the atmosphere, sountrack setting or gameplay.

I don't comprehend that either. Probably because it does affect the atmosphere and the gameplay.

The games are difficult, you will die often, but it's by design

My first experience with the Souls games were from I was 17. I didn't like hard games. I'd play most games on Easy, and avoided games and genres known for their challenge. But the praise and awesome enemy/world design of Demons' Souls were too impressive to pass up. I took a leap of faith and now I love hard games.

Much like a roguelike, your early deaths are lessons. They are necessary to teach you the in-outs of enemies and whatnot. Ideally you come to learn to be cautious and careful, treat every enemy as threat, manage your stamina, run away if you must, and so on.

With practice and skill, impossible areas become easy hours later

It's all relative. If you already played and finished games like Devil May Cry 3 or Ninja Gaiden (Xbox), playing Demon's Souls for your first time isn't going to be "crushingly difficult". You'll still die a bunch in the beginning getting used to the controls and various mechanics, but after the first few hours, you shouldn't be dying much to anything but a boss.

 

[The Dude]

I simply would love for anyone who struggles to see how the games can be is all.. Because they really are special games once you get into them and understand how they work. For me it's not about trying to be elite, just wanting others to see what a good experience they are if they can't get going, I wish i could help.

 

[More_Badass]

The games are difficult, you will die often, but it's by design

My first experience with the Souls games were from I was 17. I didn't like hard games. I'd play most games on Easy, and avoided games and genres known for their challenge. But the praise and awesome enemy/world design of Demons' Souls were too impressive to pass up. I took a leap of faith and now I love hard games.

Much like a roguelike, your early deaths are lessons. They are necessary to teach you the in-outs of enemies and whatnot. Ideally you come to learn to be cautious and careful, treat every enemy as threat, manage your stamina, run away if you must, and so on.

With practice and skill, impossible areas become easy hours later

 

[SpecialAgentDaleCooper]

if you are an adult with real world obligations what are you doing wasting any time playing video games?

seems like the solution here is for that kind of person to play casual and light games. they are designed for people who "don't have the time". the free market has provided for you!

also the idea that summoning doesn't count is ridiculous. it's still very easy to get killed in a boss fight even with a summon if you don't know what you are doing. the game gives us an easy mode, it's just inconvenient for people's arguments.

ok great, now...

Tell me what you're out, if my buddy can play on an easier difficulty so he can experience the game.

 

[AsylumBlue]

I just started playing SMT Nocturne. I walk outside Ginza, a pack of angels random encountered and guillotined my protagonist on the first turn. Not much I could do, and if I haven't saved that would have erased my progress.

Souls games never stack the deck against you, and they never, EVER erase your progress. You are always getting stronger and continually get rewarded just for trying. You have to learn the combat, but you aren't really punished with anything more than another short stroll to where you already were. Calling them "hard" is tricky for me when the stakes are so incredibly low.

That SMT example just sounds cheap, not difficult.

 

[Adam_Vania]

ok great, now...

Tell me what you're out, if my buddy can play on an easier difficulty so he can experience the game.

if he wants to experience it on the absolute easiest level he can watch a youtube video. he will still consume the content, the art, the music, the level design. all of it. without any difficulty barriers or lost time to get in the way.

 

[Stevey]

Doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Sad Affleck]

I really think you should re-read this.

It's the tediousness of the execution that gets me, particularly against bosses and tough enemies. In my opinion the game would be much more fun if those enemies died faster once you figured out their pattern and weaknesses. Exploring and finding out that stuff is cool and fun. Having to walk back to the boss for ten minutes and then spend another fifteen minutes fighting him only to die because you mistimed the 57th roll is just tedious. It doesn't challenge your perception or your skill, just your patience.

There was an enemy at the Darkroot Basin, inside a round tower. Some sort of knight. He had a big weapon and he hit like a truck , as I found out when I tried to block his attacks. After a couple of tries I figured out that the best way to beat him would be to equip light armor and dodge his attacks so I could hit him from behind without taking damage. That was fun, the game forced me to reexamine my tactics and try something new. The next ninety minutes or so were spent with me going from the bonfire to the enemy, fighting him for ten minutes, mistiming a single roll and immediately dying, walking back to the enemy, fighting, dying, rinse and repeat. The last time it took me fifteen minutes of rolling, landing a couple of strikes, rolling, landing a couple of strikes and so on until the fucker finally died.

So, the process of finding out the enemy's weaknesses and adjusting my tactics was quite fun. Having to repeat the same fucking pattern twenty or thirty times until the enemy dies wasn't fun. That's the part that I found tedious.

 

[The Dude]

Well the thing about difficulty sliders is simply this, the experience of souls and why it is what it is, is due to the way difficulty works. It'd be like a person inventing let's say a haunted house ride and the whole embodiment of the ride is supposed to scare people yet some want to opt for a less scary route, they would like it to switch rails and go around the really scary parts. It would be 1. losing the attraction and point of the ride, and 2. It'd be losing the vision of the ride from the creator. So that's why at least for me there see no difficulty sliders in souls games.

 

[CaramelMarx]

Not even a little bit. Why do other people have to like what I like, or think how I think?

 

[Adam_Vania]

i think "it wouldn't affect the gameplay" is demonstrably false. the only way you are going to make it through many boss fights is by studying the moves, dodging at the correct time, and attacking only when you are absolutely sure it is safe. halfing all the damage would make every action less consequential, you could "beat" bosses by only dodging half of what you should, all the mistakes where you attacked too early would go unpunished, etc. an easy mode would definitely affect the gameplay by rewarding bad behavior.

 

[Black_Red]

The entire "it's so difficult" mentality was coined by generation Xbox 360 players who played mostly press X to win and no penalty for dying games.

I dont remember the "you have to buy you levels with currency, that you loose" being popular.

The games are designed to be extra punishing and it is a point the game is trying to make.

i think "it wouldn't affect the gameplay" is demonstrably false. the only way you are going to make it through many boss fights is by studying the moves, dodging at the correct time, and attacking only when you are absolutely sure it is safe. halfing all the damage would make every action less consequential, you could "beat" bosses by only dodging half of what you should, all the mistakes where you attacked too early would go unpunished, etc. an easy mode would definitely affect the gameplay by rewarding bad behavior.

Of course, but it wouldn't affect the gameplay of the people playing on normal, easy mode would be an option for people that want to know about the games or they bought it but they couldn't finish it.

 

[Sanctuary]

Not even a little bit. Why do other people have to like what I like, or think how I think?

So I guess you've never had a friend that you wanted to experience something you already had, but they just couldn't be bothered because of an overblown excuse?

The games are designed to be extra punishing and it is a point the game is trying to make.

Except that it's not the point at all. The point was to make a game that played a lot more like games of the past than the standard, ultra "dumbed down" games from 2006+. That was the point. The games of the past were only "really difficult" by comparison of the average generation 7 games that were made in such a way that you couldn't possibly ever fail, so that everyone would play them.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

I simply would love for anyone who struggles to see how the games can be is all.. Because they really are special games once you get into them and understand how they work. For me it's not about trying to be elite, just wanting others to see what a good experience they are if they can't get going, I wish i could help.

I remember playing through about the first quarter of Dark Souls. It was frustrating and it made me throw my controller...but then I got better, started learning the enemy's moves and strategies. After hours of hard work, I managed to defeat one of the bosses I thought was impossible. At that moment, I "got it." It clicked why people love these games.

But do you know what I did next? I put the game down. I understood what makes these games so special for people, but this experience just wasn't for me. The reward simply didn't match the work I put in. Just because I don't hold these games sacred doesn't mean I don't "get it" like some people are saying (not you in particular lol).

 

[Raptomex]

As someone whose never beaten any of these games, including Bloodborne, I have to agree. Yes, I would say they're hard, but then that's because you don't have the patience to learn the mechanics. That's my perception anyway. I'll keep trying.

 

[John Kowalski]

All ii know is i beat the Cleric Beast on my first try.

Not even a little bit. Why do other people have to like what I like, or think how I think?

They don't, but i don't think it's too much to think that misperceptions are a negative and that there is a communal interest in avoiding them. Not to say that i don't think the games are hard, i think they are difficult and require a kind of dexterity that's not within everyone's reach. They are also intellectually and emotionally demanding, not everyone is willing to be so persistent, or to accept loss and keep going.

 

[The Dude]

I remember playing through about the first quarter of Dark Souls. It was frustrating and it made me throw my controller...but then I got better, started learning the enemy's moves and strategies. After hours of hard work, I managed to defeat one of the bosses I thought was impossible. At that moment, I "got it." It clicked why people love these games.

But do you know what I did next? I put the game down. I understood what makes these games so special for people, but this experience just wasn't for me. The reward simply didn't match the work I put in. Just because I don't hold these games sacred doesn't mean I don't "get it" like some people are saying (not you in particular lol).

And that's totally respectable and fine. I have no issue with that, you tried and found it wasn't for sure. And if it's not for others that's fine also, but if someone is passing solely because they hear its really hard, they're more or less the target of my discussion. Or someone who walked in and put 20 mins into it and walked away

 

[Sad Affleck]

i think "it wouldn't affect the gameplay" is demonstrably false. the only way you are going to make it through many boss fights is by studying the moves, dodging at the correct time, and attacking only when you are absolutely sure it is safe. halfing all the damage would make every action less consequential, you could "beat" bosses by only dodging half of what you should, all the mistakes where you attacked too early would go unpunished, etc. an easy mode would definitely affect the gameplay by rewarding bad behavior.

I think bosses and tough enemies should die faster, not hit less hard.

 

[zkorejo]

I gave Bloodborne a chance. Hard? Yes but in a good challenging kind of a way. Nothing frustrating. Stopped playing because

1. Blood Vials and having to farm them. (I'm sure there are better ways but didnt know any better and everyone on the OT was doing that.)

2. I dont like how you are spawned to the bonfire and have to go all the way back and kill the enemies all over again in order to progress in the game.

 

[John Kowalski]

I think bosses and tough enemies should die faster, not hit less hard.

Keeping your cool over long periods of heightened stress is a big part of the games. I bet more players have died to vanity and greed than to bad skills.

 

[The Dude]

I gave Bloodborne a chance. Hard? Yes but in a good challenging kind of a way. Nothing frustrating. Stopped playing because

1. Blood Vials and having to farm them. (I'm sure there are better ways but didnt know any better and everyone on the OT was doing that.)

2. I dont like how you are spawned to the bonfire and have to go all the way back and kill the enemies all over again in order to progress in the game.

But that's the thing, once you learn how enemies move and what not you can run right past them

 

[Zen_Arcade]

This is what I don't understand. It's almost like those who want the challenge couldn't trust themselves not to drop the difficulty, so they want it kept at a set level.

The argument of "It's supposed to be challenging" is meaningless, as different people find different levels of gaming hard. There are older players whose reactions may be slower, and disabled gamers who may be hampered slightly, but the things they overcome to beat such a game on an easier difficulty will be no less challenging than what others accomplish.

It's not about trusting ourselves to not drop the difficulty, it's about the fact that game design is changed when a game has to account for different levels of difficultly. Whereas if you design a game around one difficultly it becomes a more finely tuned experience.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Just level up your character and you'll be fine.

 

[Coffee Dog]

That SMT example just sounds cheap, not difficult.

I mean, now I know not to run around the world map with my main character having medium health when angels are around. It hasn't happened since.

 

[old manatee]

In-between Souls games I have to self-flagellate with a belt, like Michael Shannon. I just need to be punished like I lost 20K echoes that I could easily farm in one of a dozen areas that are designed specifically for convenient farming.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

No, because they ARE difficult games, or at least challenging. You can't teach people patience.

 

[Crayon]

The difficulty is not overstated. It really is to much for many players. Many players only play games on easy mode. And we're talking easy games on easy mode.