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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
With all this debate about whether to pursuit identity politics over economic politics in the Dem party going forward, I thought this is worth considering from Ohio:



It's from a Democratic chair in Mahoning County, Ohio, where Dems have always won by double digits but Hillary barely eked out Trump by 3 points.

The problem also si that Hillary did visit Youngstown twice, and Bill Clinton visited four times. It wasn't enough:



The rest of this DailyKos post makes a rather sombering point to Democrats who say that they shouldn't even concentrate on the midwest anymore because of the prospect of winning in the Sun Belt:

Exactly. Don't give up on the Midwest. It's turning, but it's not a lost cause at all.

The main problem, I think, is that democrats are just horrendous at messaging. They are. Republicans can scare their base. They can blame the other party effectively. They lie all the time, yet somehow convince their base it's true. They are masters of messaging.

Democrats either A) Don't have the talent to do it or B) Don't have the balls to actually play politics and use similar tactics. Sad to say, but we're at a point where it might need to be done.
 
This NASA stuff is seriously depressing. I was hoping beyond hope that climate change would be one of those things Trump didn't give a shit about one way or the other.
 
This article is fire.

http://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/essays/making-white-supremacy-respectable/

Last Friday, two tweets were posted to my feed within minutes of each other. David Duke tweeted: “Bannon, Flynn, Sessions – Great! Senate must demand that Sessions as AG stop the massive institutional racism against whites!” (Yes, I follow David Duke on Twitter — I now follow many right wing sites, I learn more from them than I do from the echo chamber of Facebook), and the New York Times tweeted out Mark Lilla’s opinion piece, “The End of Identity Liberalism.” In the new political climate we now inhabit, Duke and Lilla were contributing to the same ideological project, the former cloaked in a KKK hood, the latter in an academic gown. Both men are underwriting the whitening of American nationalism, and the re-centering of white lives as lives that matter most in the U.S. Duke is happy to own the white supremacy of his statements, while Lilla’s op-ed does the more nefarious background work of making white supremacy respectable. Again.

Mark Lilla and I both teach at Columbia University, and I acknowledge that this is a harsh indictment of my colleague. But these are harsh times. Lilla’s op-ed makes an argument for the commonalities between Americans, arguing that we have to move on to a “post-identity liberalism,” refocusing our attention away from identities to broader, more abstract ideas of “citizenship.” “Narrower issues,” like the right to choose a bathroom, should be worked on “quietly” and “sensitively” so as to not scare away potential allies. This argument, put simply, trivializes several generations of civil rights organizing in the service of breathing life into the dying corpse of political (neo)liberalism. What a curious time to take up that project on the pages of the New York Times, just ten days after an election that delivered the White House to Donald Trump, an avowed racist, sexist, Islamophobic nationalist, and vulture capitalist who defeated a person who made the best, and losing, case for (neo)liberalism. It turns out, Lilla argues, that Clinton’s loss can be blamed on the moral failure of identity politics, which “never wins elections.”

Lilla blames people of color, women, and gay and trans people for Trump’s election — a “repugnant outcome” he concedes. By his telling, left movements have indulged a narcissistic “moral panic” of identity that has devolved into whining about trivial complaints of invisibility, exclusion, and an obsession with petty individual feelings. This attachment to a counterproductive politics of identity and personal grievance, he argues, diverts our attention from the more important project of defending a collective commitment to a pre-civil rights-era notion of a national personality. This grander, transhistorical idea of nation is unmarked by difference and is strengthened by an attachment to shared liberal values. He argues that students, brought up on discussions of identity and diversity, have “shockingly little to say about such perennial questions as class, war, the economy and the common good” as if these forms of political discourse have nothing to do with one another. Talking about identity, or better yet status-based power, does not preclude discussions of class, war, the economy or the common good. And while Lilla grants that the women’s rights movement was “real and important” (an acknowledgement that resonates more as mansplaining than munificence), any benefits that may have been achieved by the women’s or other social justice movements, are premised upon “the founding fathers’ achievement in establishing a system of government based on the guarantee of rights.” Last I checked, the founding fathers denied women the right to vote, the right to equal protection of the laws, indeed, even full rights of citizenship at the founding of this great nation. It was the women’s rights movement that forced a correction in the liberal structure created by the founding fathers. Even worse, the founding fathers both countenanced and participated in the enslavement of black people, counting them as 3/5ths of a person in the Constitution, and building a modern liberal economy on the barbaric commodification of human life. But as Lilla tells it, this history, indeed the present facts of inequality, distort and degrade the noble purpose of American liberalism.

Let me be blunt: this kind of liberalism is a liberalism of white supremacy. It is a liberalism that regards the efforts of people of color and women to call out forms of power that sustain white supremacy and patriarchy as a distraction. It is a liberalism that figures the lives and interests of white men as the neutral, unmarked terrain around which a politics of “common interest” can and should be built. And it is a liberalism that regards the protests of people of color and women as a complaint or a feeling, ignoring the facts upon which those protests are based — facts about real dead, tortured, raped, and starved bodies. The liberalism Lilla espouses reduces these facts of human suffering and the systems of power that produce that suffering as beside the point. What matters are liberal values and the idea of America as a “shining city on a hill” that deserves our allegiance, not our protest. The ways that racial inequality has been baked into liberalism through the structural disadvantage of black people found in the GI Bill, discriminatory lending policies, redlining, inferior education for people of color, and — oh right — the refusal to provide reparations to formerly enslaved people, are just glitches and not actual features of the splendors of liberal governance for the likes of Lilla.

Lilla’s evidence takes the form of a thought experiment launched while on sabbatical in France. While he spent a year reading Le Monde and sipping espresso in cafes in Paris — all paid for by Columbia — an “identity drama,” as he describes it, was taking place in the streets back at home — in Ferguson and Staten Island where Michael Brown and Eric Garner were murdered, in Hemstead, Texas where Sandra Bland was found dead in her cell, and on streets across the country where an epidemic of murder of trans women of color was taking place.

Lilla closes with an homage to “the real foundations of modern American liberalism,” Franklin Roosevelt’s Four Freedoms. He recounts the sheer delight (academics would call it jouissance) at the celebration of Roosevelt’s America in a way designed to induce the reader to surrender to a familiar sentiment: “Yes, let’s make America great, like that, again!” Roosevelt’s speech in 1941 was a call to arms, providing the ideological basis for U.S. involvement in World War II. A month after Roosevelt’s Four Freedom’s speech Bruce Tisdale, a 27 year-old African American man, was lynched in Georgetown, South Carolina by five white men who were outraged that Tisdale had taken “their” jobs at the local lumber mill. One of the unemployed white men accused of the crime asked, “Why the white man couldn’t work and the n—- could?” American liberalism in 1941 took little mind of the lynchings of black men or of Jim Crow segregation, just as the American liberalism celebrated by Lilla today takes little mind of the forms of structural racism that permeate the lives of his students, whom he ridicules as “narcissistically unaware of conditions outside their self-defined groups.” Lilla would be well advised to consider the same critique of his own celebration of white liberalism.

With Jeff Sessions, we will have an avowed white supremacist assuming the post of attorney general, and we should be hyper alert to the consequences of having his ideology driving policy from that office. At the same time, scholars such as Mark Lilla are doing the more nuanced ideological work that enables the ascent to power of a man like Sessions, rendering Session’s white supremacy not only acceptable but respectable.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I'm heartbroken at the telltale signs that the lower and middle class are going to be crushed over the next four years :( It's going to take decades to recover, and I worry so much for my kids' futures here.
 
With all this debate about whether to pursuit identity politics over economic politics in the Dem party going forward, I thought this is worth considering from Ohio:



It's from a Democratic chair in Mahoning County, Ohio, where Dems have always won by double digits but Hillary barely eked out Trump by 3 points.

The problem also si that Hillary did visit Youngstown twice, and Bill Clinton visited four times. It wasn't enough:



The rest of this DailyKos post makes a rather sombering point to Democrats who say that they shouldn't even concentrate on the midwest anymore because of the prospect of winning in the Sun Belt:

Not like it really matters, but Hillary lost NC by 3.8% and Arizona by, as of now 4.1%. A little tighter than the article says.
 
Exactly. Don't give up on the Midwest. It's turning, but it's not a lost cause at all.

The main problem, I think, is that democrats are just horrendous at messaging. They are. Republicans can scare their base. They can blame the other party effectively. They lie all the time, yet somehow convince their base it's true. They are masters of messaging.

Democrats either A) Don't have the talent to do it or B) Don't have the balls to actually play politics and use similar tactics. Sad to say, but we're at a point where it might need to be done.

The Republican playbook is just fundamentally better from a psychological perspective. It is always easier to argue why you shouldn't change something than it is to convince someone to try something new. We are resistant to change on an instinctual level so that kind of message is always going to be more persuasive than the alternative.

Take Climate Change for example. "It's not real", boom, effective Republican messaging created in three words. Good luck creating an equivalently effective slogan for wanting to do something about it.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The Republican playbook is just fundamentally better from a psychological perspective. It is always easier to argue why you shouldn't change something than it is to convince someone to try something new. We are resistant to change on an instinctual level so that kind of message is always going to be more persuasive than the alternative.

Take Climate Change for example. "It's not real", boom, effective Republican messaging created in three words. Good luck creating an equivalently effective slogan for wanting to do something about it.

In addition to this the republican media machine has been active and on-target for 30 years. Limbaugh was on the radio in the 80s pounding the pulpit about lying liberals who hate America and just want to steal everything from good, hard working small town folk.

I kind of think democrats still don't really understand what they're up against. There's a lot of bullshit to unpack and deconstruct to try and reach people.
 

FyreWulff

Member
In addition to this the republican media machine has been active and on-target for 30 years. Limbaugh was on the radio in the 80s pounding the pulpit about lying liberals who hate America and just want to steal everything from good, hard working small town folk.

I kind of think democrats still don't really understand what they're up against. There's a lot of bullshit to unpack and deconstruct to try and reach people.

They are crazily, scarily good at giving all their upper ranks and base marching orders and having all of them follow through.
 
With all this debate about whether to pursuit identity politics over economic politics in the Dem party going forward, I thought this is worth considering from Ohio:



It's from a Democratic chair in Mahoning County, Ohio, where Dems have always won by double digits but Hillary barely eked out Trump by 3 points.

The problem also si that Hillary did visit Youngstown twice, and Bill Clinton visited four times. It wasn't enough:



The rest of this DailyKos post makes a rather sombering point to Democrats who say that they shouldn't even concentrate on the midwest anymore because of the prospect of winning in the Sun Belt:

Also taken from the article:

WaPo also spoke with Glenn Holmes, a former small-town mayor who was elected to the state house with 60% of the vote while Trump won his district. He says many Democrats were swayed by fear (fanned by Trump) that Clinton would confiscate guns, support late-term abortion and let in large numbers of un-vetted Syrian refugees.

This midwestern canard about canning identity politics and focusing solely on economic issues that I hear is silly.

It cedes identity politics entirely to Trump, as you can see him effectively using here.
 
Well. I did something in between where I titled it "methods of dealing with deplorables" and I post in the OP some sentences about how everyone is welcome to post their own methods as well.
lol, and it got locked.

I told you to follow my advice! Being more open-ended in title allows room for discussion instead of soapboxing.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
They are crazily, scarily good at giving all their upper ranks and base marching orders and having all of them follow through.

Unless those marching orders are to vote for Rubio in the primaries.
 
lol, and it got locked.

I told you to follow my advice! Being more open-ended in title allows room for discussion instead of soapboxing.

Well I think the problem is that people in the OT didn't understand the point of the topic. You had people assume I was talking about ANY political disagreements when I explicitly said it was for a specific type of conservative. You had people assume that I was saying to go straight to the tactic when I explicitly said that you don't start with this tactic. You had even people assume I only wanted discussion on my idea when I also explicitly said that I wanted to hear other people's ideas as well.

Basically, a lot of the criticism for my thread seems to be people who didn't actually read the entire OP and then assuming things about my tactic.

But then again I guess I should have bolded the parts that I didn't want people to overlook.
 
What exactly are you proud about?
That the candidate I voted for won...out of nowhere like an RKO. Based on the polling I had already given up on a win and was just hoping Trump would make it a little close.

..and hopefully you get banned again, as clearly you're just trolling for reactions. "So dang proud", "walking on clouds"? People are terrified that Trump will actually follow through with his promise and harm them, but I'm sure you couldn't give two fucks about that. God knows what there is to be "proud" about, and what it is that's making you so ecstatic except the obvious, which is Trump's empowering of neo-nazis, bigots, and racists. Glad you're so fucking excited about the most pathological liar in the history of US politics.
Holy crap. Idk what to say to this... that ban was for saying a Trump thread would fall off the page and in the message it said the next ban would be a permanent one so you'll have your wish soon enough. Sound good? If you don't mind I'm gonna pass on responding to the rest of your post since you showed no civility at all in talking to me.
 
Just wanted to say...I'm so dang proud of my country. I was banned for a couple weeks (well it ended like a week ago but i didnt post) so I missed the election, but I've been walking on clouds ever since. First time in my life I've been so into politics.

To clarify, you find Trump's initiatives against abortion and climate change to be positive things?
 
To clarify, you find Trump's initiatives against abortion and climate change to be positive things?
RE: abortion
Every Republican President would've appointed conservative supreme court judges and the majority of them wouldve defunded Planned Parenthood, which I don't agree with BTW. Trump did say in one of the primary debates that PP does a lot of good and helps women. That to me is his real stance on it but we'll see if he backs off...his cabinet will have so much sway.

RE: climate change
NYT interview basically confirmed my suspicions...that the climate change is a hoax stuff was blustering rhetoric to get votes. In the interview he says some of it is prob man-made and is open-minded. I've known this all along about him.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
RE: abortion
Every Republican President would've appointed conservative supreme court judges and the majority of them wouldve defunded Planned Parenthood, which I don't agree with BTW. Trump did say in one of the primary debates that PP does a lot of good and helps women. That to me is his real stance on it but we'll see if he backs off...his cabinet will have so much sway.

RE: climate change
NYT interview basically confirmed my suspicions...that the climate change is a hoax stuff was blustering rhetoric to get votes. In the interview he says some of it is prob man-made and is open-minded. I've known this all along about him.

So, you are for the moderate version of trump he gives in interviews, and not the actual trump based on who he has chosen to appoint.

You live in a weird bubble.
 
That the candidate I voted for won...out of nowhere like an RKO. Based on the polling I had already given up on a win and was just hoping Trump would make it a little close.


Holy crap. Idk what to say to this... that ban was for saying a Trump thread would fall off the page and in the message it said the next ban would be a permanent one so you'll have your wish soon enough. Sound good? If you don't mind I'm gonna pass on responding to the rest of your post since you showed no civility at all in talking to me.

Of course you won't respond to my post. In all of your posts I have yet to see you justify, in any intellectually honest way, why you've supported Trump. So, we can only assume you're on board with his white nationalism message.
 
In The Art of the Deal he says making exorbitant requests to start a negotiation and then working down from there is one of his strategies. I knew the Muslim ban would be whittled down...I knew the Wall would have some compromises...I knew he wouldn't back out of the Paris deal (he hasn't announced he wont but just watch what happens).

Of course you won't respond to my post. In all of your posts I have yet to see you justify, in any intellectually honest way, why you've supported Trump. So, we can only assume you're on board with his white nationalism message.
I've made a couple lengthy posts about it back in the Summer. My post history is not long at all as I crap out maybe 5 a month this year so it shouldn't be hard for you to find if you need an explanation about why in the world someone could vote Republican that badly!
 

kirblar

Member
RE: abortion
Every Republican President would've appointed conservative supreme court judges and the majority of them wouldve defunded Planned Parenthood, which I don't agree with BTW. Trump did say in one of the primary debates that PP does a lot of good and helps women. That to me is his real stance on it but we'll see if he backs off...his cabinet will have so much sway.

RE: climate change
NYT interview basically confirmed my suspicions...that the climate change is a hoax stuff was blustering rhetoric to get votes. In the interview he says some of it is prob man-made and is open-minded. I've known this all along about him.
Trump says whatever he thinks the audience wants to hear.

His actions will show the truth. What you believe to be true is not what is going to happen.
 

tuxfool

Banned
In The Art of the Deal he says making exorbitant requests to start a negotiation and then working down from there is one of his strategies. I knew the Muslim ban would be whittled down...I knew the Wall would have some compromises...I knew he wouldn't back out of the Paris deal (he hasn't announced he wont but just watch what happens).

You do realise that book is a work of fiction written by a ghost writer?
 

Debirudog

Member
Trump is honestly the only world leader that doesn't believe in climate change and him wanting to tear down Nasa's climate research for it's supposed "polticizing" is downright bullshit. The man wants to fuck over everyone but his friends and family.
 

lyrick

Member
Is their a running cheat sheet going for Trump appointees, possibly with the cons/pros(?) of each?

Also is there any easy way to see which positions have to be confirmed by the Senate?
 

Hindl

Member
RE: abortion
Every Republican President would've appointed conservative supreme court judges and the majority of them wouldve defunded Planned Parenthood, which I don't agree with BTW. Trump did say in one of the primary debates that PP does a lot of good and helps women. That to me is his real stance on it but we'll see if he backs off...his cabinet will have so much sway.

RE: climate change
NYT interview basically confirmed my suspicions...that the climate change is a hoax stuff was blustering rhetoric to get votes. In the interview he says some of it is prob man-made and is open-minded. I've known this all along about him.

Ok, explain this that came out after the NYT interview then:

Donald Trump is poised to eliminate all climate change research conducted by Nasa as part of a crackdown on “politicized science”, his senior adviser on issues relating to the space agency has said.

Nasa’s Earth science division is set to be stripped of funding in favor of exploration of deep space, with the president-elect having set a goal during the campaign to explore the entire solar system by the end of the century.

This would mean the elimination of Nasa’s world-renowned research into temperature, ice, clouds and other climate phenomena. Nasa’s network of satellites provide a wealth of information on climate change, with the Earth science division’s budget set to grow to $2bn next year. By comparison, space exploration has been scaled back somewhat, with a proposed budget of $2.8bn in 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...esearch?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
 
So, you are for the moderate version of trump he gives in interviews, and not the actual trump based on who he has chosen to appoint.
I would say that's accurate to some extent. I'm not gonna say a couple of his choices for his cabinet don't worry me (Sessions) but I fully believe he's the one that's gonna run the show.

Jared Kushner is someone I trust a lot (and so does Trump). He's the balance to Trump's bluster. I think with Kushner in his ear so much Trump wont do stupid shit like back out of the Paris deal.
 
Is their a running cheat sheet going for Trump appointees, possibly with the cons/pros(?) of each?

Think of the worst, most unqualified person you could possibly think of. And then think of someone a few notches below them

I would say that's accurate to some extent. I'm not gonna say a couple of his choices for his cabinet don't worry me (Sessions) but I fully believe he's the one that's gonna run the show.

Jared Kushner is someone I trust a lot (and so does Trump). He's the balance to Trump's bluster.

Despite outright admitting he was outsourcing the job to his VP?
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I would say that's accurate to some extent. I'm not gonna say a couple of his choices for his cabinet don't worry me (Sessions) but I fully believe he's the one that's gonna run the show.

Jared Kushner is someone I trust a lot (and so does Trump). He's the balance to Trump's bluster. I think with Kushner in his ear so much Trump wont do stupid shit like back out of the Paris deal.

So, when he does not govern like that, are you going to join the protesters?
 
Guys, you just don't understand. Trump was totally conning the Republican voters when he was talking to them; you know it's not who he really is because it's exactly what the Republicans want to hear and nothing more.

Same thing happens when he talks to Democratic voters, yeah he's completely contradicting what he said to the Republicans but you know it's a lie because it's exactly what the Democrats want to hear and nothing more.

And the same thing happens again when Trump talks to the media, yeah he's contradicting what he told the Democrat and Republican voters, but you know it's not true because it's exactly what the media wants to hear and nothing more.

But when Trump talks to me it's totally true, yeah, he's completely contradicting what he told the Republicans, Democrats, and the media, but it's exactly what I want to hear so it has to be true.
 
RE: abortion
Every Republican President would've appointed conservative supreme court judges and the majority of them wouldve defunded Planned Parenthood, which I don't agree with BTW. Trump did say in one of the primary debates that PP does a lot of good and helps women. That to me is his real stance on it but we'll see if he backs off...his cabinet will have so much sway.

RE: climate change
NYT interview basically confirmed my suspicions...that the climate change is a hoax stuff was blustering rhetoric to get votes. In the interview he says some of it is prob man-made and is open-minded. I've known this all along about him.

So your take is that Trump's initiative against NASA re: our climate is pro-climate change, or that the person in charge of the EPA is pro-climate change?
 
I read that thread...I haven't formed a full opinion on it yet. It is troubling. I love space & astronomy..one of my hobbies, but obviously completely defunding NASA's climate change research would be a bad idea.

Sort of random but the fact that Trump has spoken to Obama once again on the phone already after their hour long meeting is encouraging. I voted twice for Obama and loved all of his recent statements...he's the most reasonable and charismatic President ever and i'm fairly certain Trump will both listen and seek his advice from time to time... that can only be a good thing.
 

Makai

Member
15231455_10202510806008370_329432514_o.jpg
 

Zackat

Member
I would say that's accurate to some extent. I'm not gonna say a couple of his choices for his cabinet don't worry me (Sessions) but I fully believe he's the one that's gonna run the show.

Jared Kushner is someone I trust a lot (and so does Trump). He's the balance to Trump's bluster. I think with Kushner in his ear so much Trump wont do stupid shit like back out of the Paris deal.

Donald Trump is a charlatan, and you danced to his jig just like so many others. That man will say anything to get peoples approval in the moment, only to renege what he said to please others that he is speaking too later. He doesn't stand for anything, only himself and his ego.
 
So at this point Barack, you're simply taking the position that he's not going to harm efforts against climate change, and that you're just holding out hopes that he changes his mind on the disastrous things he is doing right now to derail it?
 
Despite outright admitting he was outsourcing the job to his VP?
That was Kasich and it was a while ago... SO much has changed since then.

Btw another random point I wanted to make but was obviously unable to due to the ban was about the wide-spread fear of Mike Pence from minority and LGBTQ groups. I bet you anything that Pence wasn't Trump's choice as VP. He was picked b/c the only way a GOP nom is gonna win is if he appeals to all the statistically significant groups in the electorate...and that includes bible-thumpers or hardcore Christians (whatever you want to call them). Also Pence was in the military so that base was covered. There was even a story about this

If you look at the interactions between the two you can tell trump doesn';t like him. Want direct proof? Watch the end of Trump's acceptance speech on Nov 8... he mentions and thanks EVERYONE from Rudy to Reince to his family...everyone! And then when the speech ends he turns around and realizes he forgot Pence and says oh and thanks to Mike Pence too.

I fully believe Pence isn't gonna have the sway that you guys think. 1) Trump doesn't like him and 2) Kushner and other reasonable intelligent advisors will be in his ear. I cringe every time i read that 'Trump's VP is a guy who wants to torture gay people line'. Trump doesnt care who anyone bangs and never has.
 
We all know that Trump doesn't like Pence, he tried to take his choice back but couldn't. But as a trans person, I'm not comfortable with your willingness to gamble that Pence won't have that kind of influence in Trump's cabinet.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
We all know that Trump doesn't like Pence, he tried to take his choice back but couldn't. But as a trans person, I'm not comfortable with your willingness to gamble that Pence won't have that kind of influence in Trump's cabinet.
This doesn't mean he doesn't like him, just that he had extreme second guesses over his pick.
 
We all know that Trump doesn't like Pence, he tried to take his choice back but couldn't. But as a trans person, I'm not comfortable with your willingness to gamble that Pence won't have that kind of influence in Trump's cabinet.
I feel as if you understand what I'm saying though... for the new page as it was the last post:

Btw another random point I wanted to make but was obviously unable to due to the ban was about the wide-spread fear of Mike Pence from minority and LGBTQ groups. I bet you anything that Pence wasn't Trump's choice as VP. He was picked b/c the only way a GOP nom is gonna win is if he appeals to all the statistically significant groups in the electorate...and that includes bible-thumpers or hardcore Christians (whatever you want to call them). Also Pence was in the military so that base was covered. There was even a story about this

If you look at the interactions between the two you can tell trump doesn';t like him. Want direct proof? Watch the end of Trump's acceptance speech on Nov 8... he mentions and thanks EVERYONE from Rudy to Reince to his family...everyone! And then when the speech ends he turns around and realizes he forgot Pence and says oh and thanks to Mike Pence too.

I fully believe Pence isn't gonna have the sway that you guys think. 1) Trump doesn't like him and 2) Kushner and other reasonable intelligent advisors will be in his ear. I cringe every time i read that 'Trump's VP is a guy who wants to torture gay people line'. Trump doesnt care who anyone bangs and never has.
This is a reasonable sentiment, agreed? The odds of any of that horrible torture/conversion therapy stuff happening is just.... it's just so out there that I'm unsure of what to say. It's not gonna happen. Trump doesn't like Pence as we all know and he's got too many reasonable people like Kushner and Conway in his ear to OK something like that. Along with them think about Ivanka and Melania reaction to something monstrous like that...
Trump doesn't care about who people bang or identify as...never has.

So do you get where people like me come from when we say the utter hysteria about things like that isn't justified?
 
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