the_sun_king
Member
Yup.
So far, Sega & Atlus USA are not capitalizing on the potential with the marketing so far imo.
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Persona series ships 6.9 million copies, Sega talks about their new business model
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Yup.
So far, Sega & Atlus USA are not capitalizing on the potential with the marketing so far imo.
Groundedness? J-pop band wearing backstreet boys...
I don't think your being fair to label most westerners so xenophobic or anti alternative media. They are just ignorant of the concepts. Presented in a way that shows the good points, it draws interest.
I saw more 'i never played persona in my life/i'm not familliar with JRPGs, can i get in with this game?' posts when the Persona 5 trailers trended on the front page of youtube than i ever did before that
orthodoxy1095
Banned
People have been spouting the "Persona just alienates the West" argument for years, and I still don't really get the point of that argument.
No shit the games are anime as hell. That's the point. They should first be making an appeal to the considerable niche of gamers (and anime lovers) that like that kind of shit. We're talking about a show that had trailers for NieR, Yakuza and Gravity Rush 2, all three of which are about as Japanase-ass games as you can get.
I mean Final Fantasy XV is getting away with a K-Pop boy-band aesthetic. I don't see a compelling argument for why Persona can't find its own smart way to get its teen-hijinks aesthetic across.
No shit the games are anime as hell. That's the point. They should first be making an appeal to the considerable niche of gamers (and anime lovers) that like that kind of shit. We're talking about a show that had trailers for NieR, Yakuza and Gravity Rush 2, all three of which are about as Japanase-ass games as you can get.
I mean Final Fantasy XV is getting away with a K-Pop boy-band aesthetic. I don't see a compelling argument for why Persona can't find its own smart way to get its teen-hijinks aesthetic across.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I think what he essentially meant is that FFXV just doesn't carry the anime stigma.
Which is sadly a real thing. P5 does for so many people when they first see it.
I don't even quite know when this stigma build up given that I grew up during a time where everyone thought anime was cool at least among teenagers.
What about the recent Fire Emblem games?
But the same goes for the Danganronpa V3 trailer. At least that was for its localization announcement with a release year, so I guess it's an exception.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Fair point, how much did those sell overall? Maybe the stigma has softened? I'm not sure.
The recent Fire Emblem games have sold tremendously in the West. Birthright and Conquest combined sold over 300k copies in the U.S. within 3 days.
"Anime stigma" is overrated as an excuse, especially when we talk about a franchise like Persona where people have stated, over and over again, that they're not the type to be into anime but they fell in love with P3/P4.
Its true, there are a segment of people who are just repelled against non western stuff inherently and you can't convince them to even give it a chance because of whatever biases or preconceived notions they have about it.
But i think that is an overall minority compared to the people who will try something if it personally is something that looks cool and most importantly out of anything, is marketed in their area of the net, or where they generally hang out
Wait until Persona 5 gets critical acclaim by all the major websites, do people really think people aren't going to take notice and get curious?
Fire Emblem Fates sold 1.84M as of Mar 31st, a little over a month after the US release, and before the PAL launch. So somewhere over 2M at this point.
EDIT: Japan was ~540k by the end of 2015, not counting digital. So western sales were well over 1M.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I think it ended up with 400k in 9 days as well.
Edit: yep http://venturebeat.com/2016/03/10/fire-emblem-fates-400k-copies/
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
That's amazing. Wow FE is anime as fuck I guess this is encouraging.
Yeah I guess so given the numbers.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Yeah, I've never understand the idea of anime stigma when it comes to JRPGs. Many of the most popular JRPGs of all time are extremely anime-esque in style - Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger, Kingdom Hearts, Phantasy Star, Lunar, Grandia, Wild Arms, Pokemon, Xenogears/Xenosaga/Xenoblade, Tales, and on and on.
As for sizzle reels and what feels to be completely separate Sega divisions, it's disappointing that there wasn't say a Sega direct, conference or stream during the major western shows like PSX or E3. It's one thing to have your game in say Sony's reel, and another thing to run your own.
Judging from recent Sega news, they could have showed P5, Azure platform announcement, DoW3 Ork trailer, and a longer Yakuza 6 sizzle reel with VF5FS. I understand that separate deals might restrict showing at the conference but there's nothing that could have prevented a future 'Sega direct'.
The multi day long stream at TGS that Sega had was pretty good but mostly Japan centric so many missed it.
Judging from recent Sega news, they could have showed P5, Azure platform announcement, DoW3 Ork trailer, and a longer Yakuza 6 sizzle reel with VF5FS. I understand that separate deals might restrict showing at the conference but there's nothing that could have prevented a future 'Sega direct'.
The multi day long stream at TGS that Sega had was pretty good but mostly Japan centric so many missed it.
nephilimdj
Member
9.2 Million retail software sold this year is pretty depressing
*data from page 39
*data from page 39
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
I think Atlus is a national treasure. Sounds like PC support is focused on European development, but I really hope they move from exclusivity to console exclusivity for their JRPGs.
I think a lot of their games deserve a larger market. I feel there's a Steam audience for these games.
That's not a port beg, either. I have access to everything they release in NA, but would like more people to have the opportunity to play them, too.
I think a lot of their games deserve a larger market. I feel there's a Steam audience for these games.
That's not a port beg, either. I have access to everything they release in NA, but would like more people to have the opportunity to play them, too.
Fire Emblem is a fantasy game about warring knights and is a much easier sell, especially with how relevant GoT is at the moment. Like I say, the second you bring out one of the thief outfits or some of the dorky dialogue, Persona 5 is at a disadvantage, and that shit is front and center in the trailers. Not to mention that people are more willing to play weird shit on their handhelds than on their main console.
It's not invalid to say that Persona can try to appeal to anime fans who don't play Persona, but that market is still a niche, and I'm not sure advertising at PSX more would have reached it.
That doesn't sound like a very strong argument.
LifeBrandRobot
Member
Sounds like the strategy to make P5 a success in the west is to split it into two games and sell them separately, forcing people to buy it twice to get the full experience. Double those sales instantly. Good plan.
cj_iwakura
Member
I always feel a twinge of sadness when someone says they've never played a Persona game.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It isn't. That's why we've called the argument out for so long.
What's a stigma worth when we have had good word of mouth of the Persona games in the west for at least a decade now? Demon's souls looked like a crappy medieval game worse than oblivion at first glance and see what we have now?
The least interested people will have heard of it sometime in that period. Fans can at least say it's story will tower over FFXV by astronomical units.
People who have bypassed that series up till now have an oppertunity to get the game without having to have the last generation of consoles or a vita for P4G.And the poverty class gamer can still get the PS3 version too.
The least interested people will have heard of it sometime in that period. Fans can at least say it's story will tower over FFXV by astronomical units.
People who have bypassed that series up till now have an oppertunity to get the game without having to have the last generation of consoles or a vita for P4G.And the poverty class gamer can still get the PS3 version too.
Moon Presence
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if Persona 5 sold like 2 million copies. With the almost predictable great reviews extravaganza, art-style, turn-based combat, the ost, singleplayer game without online(this matters to a lot of people), longevity of the game, etc..the recipe for success is definitely there.
P3 and specially P4 did fantastic things for the franchise, it has that cult vibe to it. The release date also seems favourable to me.
P3 and specially P4 did fantastic things for the franchise, it has that cult vibe to it. The release date also seems favourable to me.
Huw_Dawson
Member
It seems to me that Sega are taking the route of becoming the biggest PC publisher, and leaving the console market behind somewhat.
cj_iwakura
Member
Maybe if Atlus ever figure out what a PC is.
They are becoming bigger, but there's still a long way to go to catch up to the likes of blizzard.
Super heroes, alter ego flamboyant costumes and phantom thieves aren't foreign concepts to the Western audience. Persona 5's dialogue is more "dorky" than Fire Emblem Fate's? Having Camilla's boobs front and center all over the place isn't something people would notice in a negative light? Look at this trailer, complete with overly dramatic dialogue, energy blasts, anime power up screams, etc.
And we're talking about the Western audience, not Japan. I'd need receipts for the "people are more willing to play weird shit on their handhelds than on their main console" statement.
formasymphonic
Member
While, I always admire a company that is willing to upskill its staff - in the combined contexts of game development + staff being moved to more mobile games, I can't help but see these slides and not think:
"Incoming RNG, behavioural manipulation and microtransctions on all SEGA games from 2017+"
This thread has gone haywire, haha!
Are we comparing to Fire Emblem now? It has always had an anime style. Honestly, people seem to describe how the FE series went from 0 to 100, but the GBA games were almost at 1 million in sales each worldwide...which is around as much as the best-selling Persona games have managed to get at the moment.
The "anime style" can have its drawbacks for some people, sure. I think one huge mistake that anime style games do is simply cater and market to "that anime audience." I think these games can be appealing to a huge range of people, but they need to be exposed to it first.
Actually now that I think about it... most jrpg sales are more-or-less the same as they have always been, maybe? Sans the big titles, like Pokemon and Final Fantasy, jrpgs would either have a slight increase or decrease in sales, because they were never multiple million sellers in the first place. It's just the obscenely large amount of sales western AAA titles achieve that make them seem like those jrpg sales are nothing nowadays. Hmm...
Are we comparing to Fire Emblem now? It has always had an anime style. Honestly, people seem to describe how the FE series went from 0 to 100, but the GBA games were almost at 1 million in sales each worldwide...which is around as much as the best-selling Persona games have managed to get at the moment.
The "anime style" can have its drawbacks for some people, sure. I think one huge mistake that anime style games do is simply cater and market to "that anime audience." I think these games can be appealing to a huge range of people, but they need to be exposed to it first.
You're naming games from an era where jrpgs were pretty trendy globally. Now many don't exist in newer iterations or are declining as a brand. Pokemon has pushed through time and time again because their company takes amazing care in brand value and marketing.
Actually now that I think about it... most jrpg sales are more-or-less the same as they have always been, maybe? Sans the big titles, like Pokemon and Final Fantasy, jrpgs would either have a slight increase or decrease in sales, because they were never multiple million sellers in the first place. It's just the obscenely large amount of sales western AAA titles achieve that make them seem like those jrpg sales are nothing nowadays. Hmm...
CrichtonKicks
Member
When I see the sales numbers from Japan for P5 and FFXV, I'm not sure I understand why their publishers go to so much effort and expense for these major advertising spreads there. Seems like a lot of cost and effort for, at best, a couple of hundred thousand extra sales. I can't help but feel like that money would be more effective used toward exposure outside of Japan whether through normal marketing means or funding PC ports.
FFXV was marketed towards a global audience. P5 generally cost less to make than you think. P5 was far more of a success in japan than FF15 was, which was a failure. You have to put it all in context.
I mean, the Fire Emblem comparison could go on and on with us countering each other, but isn't it moot? Fire Emblem has already reached higher numbers than Persona 5 will. Regardless of what you think about its appeal or what I think, it's already done. And I'm struggling to think of any games that have flamboyant costumes or phantom thieves that aren't anime-related. Are there any? And it's even harder when you contextualise it. Would Iron Man be as popular if Tony Stark wasn't RDJ, but an edgy teenager? I highly doubt it.
Also that trailer is no way near as dorky as any of the P5 trailers. Not even close.
And you want receipts for the handheld thing? Look how often weird games sell well on handhelds. Things like Phoenix Wright and Professor Layton. Now look what sells well on consoles. Completely different style. People are used to playing more cartoon, anime and weird games on handheld. It's expected, even.
CrichtonKicks
Member
FFXV may be marketed toward a global audience but there are enough Japanese only special events and the like disproportionate to the 20% of global sales that would come from that region. Like, why is the Judgment demo Japanese exclusive?
And I wasn't talking about success at all- clearly P5 is a big success even without Western sales. I'm talking diminishing returns. The upward ceiling on a Japanese JRPG that isn't DQ is now a million and more likely closer to 500k. Whereas the upward ceiling on Western success is several million even for a niche series like Souls.
It feels like Japanese publishers are working their butts off to net 100-200k difference in sales in Japan. Marketing dollars are probably better spent at this point trying to get better penetration in the West.
They want to bring back their domestic core gaming userbase. I think that is a noble, if naive goal. Otherwise you cant really build on core games with higher budgets without global focus, and many devs dont have the resources for that kind of reach.
DriftingSpirit
Member
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It's a ridiculous claim. Don't question it too much.
CrichtonKicks
Member
That's kind of what I'm saying though. They are fighting for stalemate in Japan and that seems to be a losing battle.
In P5's case, the West has a lot of untapped potential that can more than offset the contraction in the Japanese market. Since Atlus/Sega's resources are fairly limited I think a lot of those marketing dollars might have been better spent in the West. Maybe P5 would end up closer to 350k than 450k in Japan in that case but those sales could have been more than offset in rest of world.
FFXV is different because SE has incredible resources. There is no reason that a company of their size and caliber shouldn't have localized the Judgment demo or put in a better effort to provide cross-language delivery of a lot of the Japanese exclusive livestreams and events.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
If we want to talk better places to spend money, I think the general West market is good, but it'd also be good to chase that's Asian market and build it up.
I don't really get this. The game isn't out for another 4 months, and they've already released a few English trailers, as well as multiple (also English) individual character trailers. Do people expect SEGA to shell out for a television presence or something?
With regards to sales, I can't tell if people's expectations are realistic or not. The audience that's going to buy this game and spread word of mouth about it decided they were going to buy it literally years ago - probably around winter 2014. Or fall 2007. I think the brand expanding over the years on multiple platforms (albiet through spinoffs of varying quality) has already set it up to do very well for its genre, and core gamers who browse IGN, Gamespot, etc will be drawn to its high reviews. But at the end of the day, it's still a JRPG, and it has a ceiling in terms of sales, anime or not.
It's likely factors that make it seem like the promotion of the game was prioritised for Japan to a fault, when both release dates seemed like they'd be closer together, that make people feel this way.
Like when a new Persona 5 trailer was exclusively released as a pack-in to the P4 spin-off rhythm game 1 week after E3 2015, but it ended up getting leaked anyways.
Movalpolos
Banned
There are more anime fans in the West today than there ever has been. The audience has only grown over the years.
BassForever
Member
Fire Emblem gets a combo of the Nintendo bump and the Smash Bros bump for its massive numbers. While persona 5 will probably do well in the west I doubt it'll outsell FE Fates here.
Well, yeah, but the game isn't out in America for another 4 months. Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see any reason for Atlus to have some sort of year long hype machine. TBH the game's multiple delays have already kind of provided that in a weird way.
Movalpolos
Banned
P5 will beat it easily.
StereoVsn
Member
There is almost no chance of that, IMO. Didn't FE Fates sell over 1.84 mil WW already and it's not even out a year? P5 sold 550K (well, shipped) last time we heard about it from Atlus. Let's say it sells another 50K before US release (unlikely unless there is a cheap version out). It would have to go on and sell 1.3 mil in the West and Asia (Chinese, Korean, English subs/dubs) in 6-8 months. That's not happening. Temper your expectations I would say. Maybe after 2-3 years and significant discounts.
In sales? Absolutely not.
Movalpolos
Banned
Just gonna disagree. Persona has become much more popular over the years. All the spin-offs and fighting games also helped. It will be releasing on a console that has a massive install base as well. The trailers have been reaching people that normally wouldn't play this sort of game.