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[plagiarize]

That's what you took from that huh

Okay. But if you marched because you needed to heal, why not do something in 2018? March all you want, don't mean a thing unless you vote in 2018.

I don't think we can just *wait* to vote next year. I mean, at a minimum, I want people to turn out next year, yes, absolutely. But we need to fight multiple issues on multiple fronts *right now*.

 

[theignoramus]

I don't see black males heavily being involved in LGBTQIA either, should I be mad at them for only thinking of themselves?

Probably because LGBTQ issues are higher than Black issues on the social justice totem pole.
If opposition to Black peoples' 4th amendment rights being violated was anywhere near the strength and intensity of the opposition to anti-trans bathroom bill, (with corporations and state governments creating real economic penalties) bad police might actually go to jail.

 

[BotoxAgent]

I wonder if Trump declares "end women's suffrage" his base will eat it up, "yes, let's stop the suffering"

 

[Maztorre]

Thinking that someone's economic/trade/foreign policies would benefit them more than the other person's is not the same as "voting based on their feelings being hurt"

It is when the economic/trade/foreign policy is based entirely around addressing the resentments of uneducated whites (Chinese stealing jobs, Mexicans are undercutting wages illegally, Muslims are a massive domestic threat, etc) rather than being realistic or achievable. They are entirely based on fears that the national myths uneducated whites bought into have been dismantled (or worse, weren't even true).

 

[Fried Food]

There will never be real unity EVER.

 

[sn00zer]

These groups were already not helping and did not want to help if pointing out a flaw in their worldview causes a short-circuit of sympathy towards anyone that doesn't look like them.

You are seemingly proposing minorities to coddle people who likely were not going to do anything for them – as perching atop a pillar of privilege is more comforting than the allyship of a minority could ever be – and consequently have minorities bury their own suffering with the hope that there will be some trickle-down sympathy from the white power they're supposed to caress.

Evidently, by the continued existence of institutional racism, that tactic hasn't worked. Evidently, looking at pivotal moments of progress, protesting and confronting the issues have worked.

Im not asking to coddle I'm saying not to push away.

 

[LionPride]

Why are you so willing to judge people when voting in 2018 hasn't happened yet? What makes you so sure every single person in that march won't vote?

Statistically people don't vote in midterms. At least, not Democrats.

I don't think we can just *wait* to vote next year. I mean, at a minimum, I want people to turn out next year, yes, absolutely. But we need to fight multiple issues on multiple fronts *right now*.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but if those same people do fuck all next year...I don't care

 

[Impeccable]

Yes, this thread is about minorities in a march telling you that even those same "liberals" have not done enough to help them.

"We need to keep working together. For all of us." vs. "Thanks but it's not enough."

Strike to strengthen while the iron is hot. Don't strike it weaken and warp it.

Embrace the solidarity we have now to strengthen it later.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I feel like I have to keep bouncing back and forth on this topic, because people keep taking it too far.

You're going to let some tweets and a few signs signal that, just a couple days after those enormous marches, the left is "in shambles"?

This is where it wraps back around and leads us right back to white fragility. Question whites, even if it's a bit unfair (plenty of whites in the 60's civil rights movement, plenty of whites with BLM today), you must be 100% broken.

Question any demo that brushes up against "average white person" and it's all hyperbole and how dare yous from then on out.

This is a great point.

 

[Koodo]

Then what can they do to help?

If voting for Clinton and protesting isn't "enough" then what else can they do?

Listen to the minorities trying to speak rather than immediately defaulting to deny their arguments, like a significant portion of this thread has demonstrated.

It's that simple: listen. Ask yourself: "why did this minority think to protest some of the other people marching" rather than casting their feelings aside as misplaced anger.

 

[UncleSporky]

The people who are being called out by that sign aren't allies.

Also, if you claim to be an ally but a sign calling out people of the same ethnicity as you for something they actually did is enough to stop you, then you were never an ally to begin with.

This is like No True Scotsman mixed with some sour grapes, or something.

What if somebody was a Trump voter but then they saw a mean sign from a Trump supporter and decided to join the left instead, does that mean they were always an ally to begin with? A good person at heart, just waiting to realize the people they should be supporting?

But then later, they decide to switch back, and that means once again they were never an ally to begin with?

People can change their minds, right? People can be persuaded. How many times are you allowed to switch sides ideologically before you can no longer be considered an ally to anyone under any circumstances?

 

[Alcotholic]

This infighting is not helpful. It intends to further divide and separate intentions when we really need to take things one step at a time and work together.
I don't want to discredit their point, but it's counter productive to what the march was protesting.
In my eyes, I saw it as a day of unity. Mutual understanding of what the needs of Americans are. Of course white women voted for trump, I had cousins who are women and they lambasted the marches going on. The point of the march was to make sure the rest of America was listening and they did, discussion has started.

 

[akira28]

interesting thought. how many of those women Trump voters did it because their husbands did it...and they're basically afraid of their spouses and terrified of not voting Trump?

I know there was at least the slight assumption that there would be a lot of Trump husbands and Clinton wives.

 

[gregor7777]

This is how you get 8 years of Trump.

Individual agency means nothing, and I am personally responsible for the actions of members of my racial group that I have absolutely nothing in common with.

Believe me, I tried to convince my family of Trump voters not to do it. I got through to TWO of them out of the 20 or so I spoke with.

I'm also a card carrying member of the DNC, maxed out my donations to HRC and was at the March.

But I'm sure my wife and I are part of the problem.

Counter productive as fuck. I get that POC are mad, and they have every right to be, but blaming members of a group of people for the actions of other people of that group is not altogether useful.

Fucking spot on.

 

[Aselith]

Statistically people don't vote in midterms. At least, not Democrats.

I would say statistically the people that travel to a political protest march probably aren't the nonvoting types though, right?

 

[Cipherr]

Okay. But if you marched because you needed to heal, why not do something in 2018?

Wait what? Who says they won't?

And second, Waiting until midterms isn't enough. If we are going to rally people to get to the polls in 2018 Marches like the one the OP posts are LITERALLY a perfect start for spreading the word and getting the momentum going. Anyone attempting to dim the enthusiasm this has created and the momentum it threatens to springboard can eat a bag of dicks IMO.

Statistically people don't vote in midterms. At least, not Democrats.

I mean...Okay... Let's get started with trying to change that with a huge ass multi state march on Inauguration day no less.

 

[DarkKyo]

Statistically people don't vote in midterms. At least, not Democrats.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but if those same people do fuck all next year...I don't care

I do, and I'm a democrat. What now?

 

[plagiarize]

Funny that you're replying to a post that was agreeing with my own comments against doing pretty much exactly what you've done here.

I'm more than prepared to carry the far left on our shoulders. I believe most of them still turned out and voted for Clinton, after all.

But the people who refused to vote for anyone that didn't agree with them 100%... If they aren't prepared to give up on a pet issue to support candidates carrying a broadly progressive platform against the current GOP...

I'm not sure how you win that person over. I think they may be a lost cause. I wasn't telling them to go fuck themselves.

 

[LionPride]

I would say statistically the people that travel to a protest march probably aren't the no voting types though, right?

Shit you never know. I have teachers who were at the march here who have never voted in Midterms. Some do, some don't. All I said was, I don't give a fuck what you do this year...if you don't vote in Midterm and local elections that could change things for the better, fuck off.

 

[Irminsul]

Listen to the minorities trying to speak rather than immediately defaulting to deny their arguments, like a significant portion of this thread has demonstrated.

It's that simple: listen. Ask yourself: "why did this minority think to protest some of the other people marching" rather than casting their feelings aside as misplaced anger.

Well, that sign did tell pretty clearly what there was to protest.

It's just that not a single white woman at that protest can do anything against that. If 53% of white women want to vote R in the next election against all advice and arguments, they can do that. Simple as that.

So it comes down to:

- People who read that sign who can't change what's on it because they already voted blue
- People who read that sign who probably won't change what's on it because why would a simple sign change what Trump's misogynistic language couldn't?

So what exactly does one achieve with this?

 

[Night Angel]

Statistically people don't vote in midterms. At least, not Democrats.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but if those same people do fuck all next year...I don't care

So your baseline assumption is that people who care enough to go march don't care enough to vote?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

This isn't how you get 8 years of trump

You get 8 years of trump by having a the majority of a demographic vote against their best interests

 

[airmangataosenai]

I think it is safe to say anyone who attended probably does challenge people on Trump. What a weird tweet.

 

[Aselith]

Shit you never know. I have teachers who were at the march here who have never voted in Midterms. Some do, some don't. All I said was, I don't give a fuck what you do this year...if you don't vote in Midterm and local elections that could change things for the better, fuck off.

Well then agreed!

 

[Kurdel]

I would say statistically the people that travel to a political protest march probably aren't the nonvoting types though, right?

Yeah that is why I was scratching my head at these "Don't march vote" posts...

The major issue was the 53% of americans who watched this election and said "Politics? Nah I'm good" and didn't vote.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

You might need to invest into your reading skills if that's what you took away from his post.

That's what you took from that huh

Okay. But if you marched because you needed to heal, why not do something in 2018? March all you want, don't mean a thing unless you vote in 2018.

Well it's either that or old man yells at clouds so I tried to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Plum]

Listen to the minorities trying to speak rather than immediately defaulting to deny their arguments, like a significant portion of this thread has demonstrated.

It's that simple: listen. Ask yourself: "why did this minority think to protest some of the other people marching" rather than casting their feelings aside as misplaced anger.

I'd also like to ask "how did she, and Torraine, know that all of the white women there don't listen to minority issues"?

Nobody here is saying that people shouldn't try and reach out to those who voted Trump or didn't vote at all; no-one. Instead they're taking issue with the idea that it is somehow the fault of those most politically active, that despite everything they somehow "don't listen" and aren't doing enough to help or, as you have said yourself, have done nothing to help. It's assumptions upon assumptions, none of which help anyone but Trump.

EDIT: That and what should they do after listening? Protest harder? Somehow vote more? Volunteer? Because that's all that can legally be done outside of literally running for a position of government. How would these apparently unenlightened masses of white women becoming "enlightened" affect what they're already doing?

 

[plagiarize]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but if those same people do fuck all next year...I don't care

I can't argue with that. Voting in the mid terms is the *least* everyone at the march on Saturday needs to do. So yeah, fair enough.

 

[LionPride]

I do, and I'm a democrat. What now?

Protest, do whatever you see fit. Be an ally to minorities. Don't be an idiot is really all I can ask.

 

[DarkKyo]

Protest, do whatever you see fit. Be an ally to minorities. Don't be an idiot is really all I can ask.

Sounds good. Just don't place blame on people you know nothing about and are already doing all the right things.

 

[King Tubby]

Listen to the minorities trying to speak rather than immediately defaulting to deny their arguments, like a significant portion of this thread has demonstrated.

It's that simple: listen. Ask yourself: "why did this minority think to protest some of the other people marching" rather than casting their feelings aside as misplaced anger.

I'm a minority too and the only reason I can think of is anger and frustration. Which, sure, I understand. But I fall to see any way a sign like that helps.

 

[QisTopTier]

This is how you get 8 years of Trump.

Individual agency means nothing, and I am personally responsible for the actions of members of my racial group that I have absolutely nothing in common with.

Believe me, I tried to convince my family of Trump voters not to do it. I got through to TWO of them out of the 20 or so I spoke with.

I'm also a card carrying member of the DNC, maxed out my donations to HRC and was at the March.

But I'm sure my wife and I are part of the problem.

Counter productive as fuck. I get that POC are mad, and they have every right to be, but blaming members of a group of people for the actions of other people of that group is not altogether useful and is frankly dismissive of the decades of work some of these women have done to advance the cause of feminism out of hand because they are white.

And don't call it "white fragility". I have every right to be mad for being lumped in with the action of people that I loath and vehemently have opposed my entire life.

Oh trust me I know the feelings had to listen to my cousin say "the military should round up all the trans and shoot them" over xmas, shit was frustrating

 

[fart town usa]

Wait what? Who says they won't?

And second, Waiting until midterms isn't enough. If we are going to rally people to get to the polls in 2018 Marches like the one the OP posts are LITERALLY a perfect start for spreading the word and getting the momentum going. Anyone attempting to dim the enthusiasm this has created and the momentum it threatens to springboard can eat a bag of dicks IMO.

I didn't march but I did go to a rally that morning for a woman who is already campaigning for governor in 2018 in my state. She was spot-on in her approach to Trump supporters and how writing them off won't do us any favors. I live in a deep red county but from the Trump supporters I know, I think hey could easily be convinced to vote for her. Identity politics is a good things an extent but it can easily backfire when used as a weapon against people who otherwise might be receptive to the message.

 

[Unspeakable Evil]

Oh I agree. I just can't wrap my head around the fact so much energy in this thread is being wasted on that first tweet when all of it should be focused on the elephant in the room: more White Women for for Trump than against him - what do we do about that moving forward?



SMH

Posts like these in this context have me more worried about that Democratic party moving forward than anything else

People wanna give each other a pat on the back for marching instead figuring out ways that can them stop them from marching. There's way to much time spent getting your feelings hurt over something that shouldn't apply to you.

 

[LionPride]

So your baseline assumption is that people who care enough to go march don't care enough to vote?

Is it an assumption of statistics show that less Dems vote during Midterms? People can do whatever they want this year, but if you don't show up next year then you didn't do shit

This isn't how you get 8 years of trump

You get 8 years of trump by having a the majority of a demographic vote against their best interests

Deadass

I can't argue with that. Voting in the mid terms is the *least* everyone at the march on Saturday needs to do. So yeah, fair enough.

Good talk yo

 

[Breads]

I hate that fucking sign. Yes we know that white women voted Trump, but the ones that opposed that asshole have every right that we do to be upset with the situation and to protest his orange ass right along side us. Shit feels super fucking lame, like someones working overtime to get all the people that agree with each other to squabble amongst themselves.

That goes without saying but fragility is what makes people say it.

That sign is very succinct but I am willing to accept an alternative when confronting the elephant in the room in a different way as long as it doesn't further muddy the waters.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Probably because LGBTQ issues are higher than Black issues on the social justice totem pole.
If opposition to Black peoples' 4th amendment rights being violated was anywhere near the strength and intensity of the opposition to anti-trans bathroom bill, (with corporations and state governments creating real economic penalties) bad police might actually go to jail.

So we're playing oppression olympics now? I'm sure trans people are thrilled to hear their problems don't matter and they're better off. There's a lot of shit transpeople have to fight and deal with and things that are multitudes more difficult than your insulting reduction to a bathroom bill. Unreal.

 

[Lesath]

All this infighting is not helpful, so let's pretend your grievances don't exist because you'll still vote anyway, and we won't if our feelings are hurt.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

It means convincing people at home or close to you to not become Trump supporters. It means to educate them. It doesn't mean tweeting is better than marching. Marching is good and all, and that energy needs to be transferred at home too instead of just one event. Keep fighting privately, not just publicly.

Then why did you post a tweet telling white women to stay home instead of march?

 

[LionPride]

Sounds good. Just don't place blame on people you know nothing about and are already doing all the right things.

If you got hurt even though you aren't the type of person I'm talking about, there is already a problem

 

[cackhyena]

This is how you get 8 years of Trump.

Individual agency means nothing, and I am personally responsible for the actions of members of my racial group that I have absolutely nothing in common with.

Believe me, I tried to convince my family of Trump voters not to do it. I got through to TWO of them out of the 20 or so I spoke with.

I'm also a card carrying member of the DNC, maxed out my donations to HRC and was at the March.

But I'm sure my wife and I are part of the problem.

Counter productive as fuck. I get that POC are mad, and they have every right to be, but blaming members of a group of people for the actions of other people of that group is not altogether useful and is frankly dismissive of the decades of work some of these women have done to advance the cause of feminism out of hand because they are white.

And don't call it "white fragility". I have every right to be mad for being lumped in with the action of people that I loath and vehemently have opposed my entire life.

I'm waiting for all the people calling it "white fragility" to rationally debate with you now.

 

[International Iron Man]

How the fuck do blanket attacks on white women (or anyone aside from those who actually supported Trump) help anything or anyone?

I don't give a fuck if white people are "fragile". I only care if they vote blue. If you want to be indignant, then fuck off because you are probably not helping that objective. Attacks on any demographic do little except engender resentment among members of that demographic who would otherwise be on your side, because the ones who aren't on your side don't give a fuck anyway.

How can you be expected to fix a problem when this is how you react instead of actually acknowledging the goddamn problem?

Hey, instead of lashing out at everyone telling you that you have poop on your shoe, maybe direct some of that energy towards getting the poop off your shoe.

Just a thought.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The sign says "White women" voted for Trump, not "52% of white women."

The tweet literally says "Why are you marching instead of..."

It's about the people who are marching, not white female Trump voters specifically.

The women who marched on Washington and elsewhere did the right thing. The white women who marched across the country did so because they didn't support Trump or his policies. I understand the frustration in the tweet posted, but it's misdirected.

Aye. This is why this tweet sucks.

White fragility is a thing, yes. But this is a bad example. The white women (and men) who marched in these protests aren't Trump voters. They are your allies. Antagonizing them is fucking dumb and counter-productive.

The sign itself isn't that bad; it's true that 53% of white women is embarrassing as fuck, and white women shouldn't be offended that this is pointed out because it doesn't specifically target people who are marching. But the tweet poster can fuck off.

They should have called the march "The White Moderate Woman March"

And seeing their white moderate defense force on here is comical. Ive heard stories from black women who did go and guess what? They left just as disappointed in white people and women as they came, because it served as a pat on the back white feminism lovefest.

What? Why were they disappointed? What are you even referring to?

Ummmm......

Yeesh. Yeah that woman seems like a nutcase to be honest...

I'm tired of "you're the reason why Trump's going to win again!" being used to shut down conversations.

Same.

That Walker guy's twitter is full of dumb Bible quotes. The Christian vote for Trump was greater than 53%. He needs to look in the mirror and ask why people like him supported Trump.

Hahaha, well put.

 

[not psycho]

Reminds me of the thread about how saying "not all __" = violence.

And this is why I completely disagree with that. At times, "not all __" is nothing but basic truth. Not all white women voted for Trump, and there is nothing wrong with that being part of a response when, as in the case of the tweet, it is directly applicable.

Similarly, I don't think there is anything wrong with white fragility. Is it fun being generalized by race? Is it fun feeling an association with people like Trump? Of course not. It is unpleasant. It is foolish and counterproductive to try to demonize a perfectly normal, natural reaction.

HOWEVER, I also see nothing wrong with that sign. It is also a basic truth that the majority of white women voted for Trump, and if we don't fully recognize that we can't understand why it happened. The sign doesn't imply that the people at the march voted for Trump.

"Not all __" is good.
White fragility is good.
Calling people out is good.

So what isn't good? When fragility leads someone to shut down or silence others. Fragility is only an indicator that a disease may be present, it isn't the disease itself. Instead of telling people their natural reaction of feeling a sting is bad, why not be honest and say:

"You may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that shit."

 

[Crocodile]

The statement "White Women voted for Trump" is not stereotyping. It is a statement of truth based on the limited data we have available to use. Stereotyping would be assuming a random white woman voted for Trump without any other qualifiers of signals. People need to stop missing the forest for the trees. Admonishing random marchers who haven't identified themselves as Trump voters isn't productive but acknowledging and opening a discussion on real statistical trends and realities is needed. It's not an attack on you or any individual.

 

[StoOgE]

Listen to the minorities trying to speak rather than immediately defaulting to deny their arguments, like a significant portion of this thread has demonstrated.

It's that simple: listen. Ask yourself: "why did this minority think to protest some of the other people marching" rather than casting their feelings aside as misplaced anger.

Sorry, listening is a two way street and posing for a photo that implicitly blames the women that she doesn't know from Adam is accusatory and intentionally inflammatory behavior that robs that group of women of individual agency.

There are real problems with race in this country, and I do a hell of a job of trying to not white-splain or man-splain issues and I am sure I can do a better job of that, but blaming a subset of a race for the actions of another subset of that race is highly insulting behavior.

I am not responsible for the actions of a bunch of racist shit bags. I will absolutely listen to minorities and POC about what I can do to help and what they know is right for their communities, but I am not going to defend actions that single individuals out and place blame on them for actions they did not themselves take.

 

[plagiarize]

Then why did you post a tweet telling white women to stay home instead of march?

He also posted the tweet encouraging white women to talk to their trump supporting family members, posted by the same person, in the same conversation.

It's literally in the same picture as the tweet that upset you.

 

[Neato_Jinkins]

Listen to the minorities trying to speak rather than immediately defaulting to deny their arguments, like a significant portion of this thread has demonstrated.

It's that simple: listen. Ask yourself: "why did this minority think to protest some of the other people marching" rather than casting their feelings aside as misplaced anger.

i love how "listen" is always implicitly defined to mean "accept in whole without argument" in these threads. it's a tactic similar to those employed by religious zealots.

the argument has been heard and found wanting, dude.

 

[King Tubby]

How can you be expected to fix a problem when this is how you react instead of actually acknowledging the goddamn problem?

Hey, instead of lashing out at everyone telling you that you have poop on your shoe, maybe direct some of that energy towards @
the poop off your shoe.

Just a thought.

I'm an Hispanic man who doesn't want to lose in 2018 and 2020 because of unnecessary bullshit. What poop are you taking about?

 

[Codeblue]

We all literally own the problem of Trump getting into office.

Was speaking more to the problem of not being able to think rationally.