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[CrocMother]

Yup, that's exactly what you're doing. No progress is going to happen as long as Trump is in power. Getting him out is job #1, and everyone's vote is equal. You can't give up on people and call them "fake allies" at the first little disagreement.

Yup. Whatever it takes to get Democrats in office at every possible position.

 

[Mik2121]

Never mind.

 

[LionPride]

Yup, that's exactly what you're doing. No progress is going to happen as long as Trump is in power. Getting him out is job #1, and everyone's vote is equal. You can't give up on people and call them "fake allies" at the first little disagreement.

I can when I see that shit on a daily basis. I can when anytime a BLM protest happens the same people come out the woodwork to say "They aren't protesting the right way" I can when countless amounts of bullshit happens through the year and I don't wanna hear it anymore. You know who matters? Allies who understand when they are needed and when they aren't.

 

[QisTopTier]

C'mon man. This isn't and never has been "who cares about white people?" or that anyone actually believes that no white person has it bad. I know you know better but what you are expressing is what people feel when they misunderstand "White Privilege". The human experience is complicated and different individuals have things better than others for a variety of different reasons. That doesn't change the fact that if you keep other variables constant, its better to be White than Non-White. That doesn't mean all White people are living the high life but rather one option is usually better than the other. I mean what if we instead of White/Non-White we talked about Men/Women? There are issues that Men suffer exclusive to them but on average, if all other variables were kept the same, would you argue with a straight face that its better to be a Woman in this environment?

"White people have certain advantages" or "White people have often voted in ways that have hurt minorities (and themselves) or been unsympathetic to minorities" (which are both objectively true) has never meant and never will mean "fuck all White people".

It's not about that as a movement no, but the arguments people make and the messages they say paint that image and it fucking harms the movements. I'm in 100% agreement on all the advantage stuff I never argued otherwise. I've just been simply saying people need to learn how to get their statements across with out extreame friction and sparking anti movements. Once those two flames are lit you lead up to growing radicals of both sides and it typically makes the progressive helpful one get painted in a bad light from said shouting match. Because people hate change so they look for excuses to deny said changes.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

47% of white women is still more than 100% of black Americans (both men and women combined) in terms of sheer numbers.

Definitely worth pointing out that Trump won the majority of the group, but I'm failing to see how focusing on that is benefiting anyone who wants to resist Trump and everything his regime stands for. Then again, amongst Trump voters, I imagine that white women would be more easily convinced to not do it again than their male counterparts.

 

[ReaperXL7]

I mean if you want to look at the issues from this perspective I think it goes in all directions, and it never gets better.

There are Black people who voted for Trump, should all people of the race be held accountable? No
There are Hispanic people who voted for Trump, should people of that race be held accountable? No
There are Native fucking Americans that voted for Trump...

Over the weekend I saw a black guy verbally abuse an Asian lady because she had a Clinton bumper sticker telling her that she needed to wake up because the "Best man" won.

Yes, Some white Women voted for Trump, but your ire should not in anyway be directed at the women who are there on the ground at your side, the likelihood that the women who voted for Trump are going to these marches is not non exsiststant but I bet it's pretty low.My wife is a white woman despite some heavy fucking bullshit directed at me when I was younger because I was betraying my ancestors, I thought it was bullshit then and I still stand by that because my wife is a good woman who would help anyone she was able to regardless of their situation in life race or gender.

Part of the problem with talking Race politics in this country is that too many only truely care about their own problems or problems faced by their race or gender exclusively because they feel no one else cares. White people often do not think about the problems faced by black people because they feel it doesn't effect them. Black people don't give a fuck about the problems faced by Asians because it doesn't effect them. Asians don't generally care about shit that's bothering Hispanics. Only when the issue is effecting you directly does it motivate people to do something about it. This is the thing that needs to change and coming together at times like this is the best time to even try to began to fix many of the problems that all boil down to apathy and ignorance in a large portion of issues. Directing your anger to the people standing at your shoulder does nothing but widen the gap and give power to people like Trump.

 

[TurnipFritters]

The number one job would actually be the midterm elections in 2018, because it's not looking great for the Dems right now.

 

[StoOgE]

Unless you are black, then you can never understand the full extent of being black in a racist white-controlled society.

What white people need to do is shut the fuck up, and listen. Listen. Only listen. Just fucking listen, without going on the defensive about anything. Nobody gives a damning fuck how much money we give and how many marches we go to, we will never understand fully. You can have empathy. You can act as a conduit for change. But you will never have to live it.

You want to know who you are?

As a white person, how you are seen by society is merely a change of clothes and a haircut. You could walk around unkempt and scraggly and have people run away from you. Slap on a business suit and a salon visit, walk down the SAME street, and the world molds itself to you.

As a black person, you are a black person in street clothes, a black businessman, a black teacher. Whites see you as black first and resist you instantly.

You can't even wear your hair however you want to. Wearing natural black hair is "rocking the boat" or "unkept" instead of just being hair. White people wrote the rules on workplace and school rules and specifically targeted minorities. People just accept it as "thems the rules".

You get home and most of your media is white-dominated because they only hire other whites. If more than 2 black people are in a show, it's now always gotta be a "black show", and they filter all the black stars over to that single show while all the other shows retain their whiteness, like they feel they threw people a bone and now they should be happy.

You go online and white people let racists question your humanity with no pushback because "everyone has a viewpoint". Ignore all the systemic racism that means black neighborhoods are often the last to get usable internet because the companies are allowed to target the richer white areas first. Watch as people that think they're being innovative and "standing up for everyone" are just copy pasting white society onto the internet.

You go to a march and show your support. You maybe put some slight skin in the game holding up a BLM sign. Black people are always marching, day to day, just from existing and walking down the street, in the white perception. You know when you're at the march, and you wonder if something's going to happen? Is that dude over there going to pop off? Yeah welcome to a small percent of a small slice of being black day to fucking day.

People are sick and fucking tired of supposed allies that play on both sides and refuse to acknowledge it. Nobody gives a fuck if you marched, Bernie did that too, and then ran back to whitelandia where he never had to court a black vote to retain office. Even having that as an option influences your decisions in life.

I went to the march, and afterwards I went to my car and societally, disappeared into the background noise again, driving a shitty 97 honda with no fear of ever being pulled over. The black mom behind me with her daughter walked back to their '15 Elantra and told her daughter to remember not to make any sudden movements if the police felt like randomly stopping her on her drive out lest they get tazed, shot, or otherwise humiliated.

That is all totally fine, and I don't disagree with what you are saying at all.

But, being black in America is not the only group of people who have legitimate grievances about society.

White women are the victims of rape culture, misogyny and being treated as second tier citizens. I was marching with 3 women who are the victims of rape who just watched a self professed rapist get elected. I've never been raped and I can walk alone at night with no fear of it. I know any promotion I was passed over for was because of my skills and not because I have a vagina.

One of my best friends father had to flee Russia because of religious persecution and was black listed by several groups in Austin because he dared point out that they had booked a skin head band and a popular bar caught a lot of flack locally for it. I'm not Jewish, and I've never been part of a persecuted class of people and will never know what that will feel like.

I was marching with one of my friends who had most of her family deported when she was in high school. I have no idea what that is like because I never feared it, but I love her and I felt that pain.

I was marching with my friend who just had to leave his first openly gay relationship because his boyfriend pulled a gun on him on the side of the highway. He called the cops, and because he is black they asked him if he had drugs in the car and searched him. I have no idea what that is like. When I interact with the police I assume they are there to help me. It wasn't always that way, but it is now.

I am a white male. My background is as you say irrelevant. I grew up in a trailer park, most of my friends spoke English as a second language. I used to speak with a shitload of spanish sprinkled with my English. I was targeted as poor and thrown into a sub-par elementary school while the district funneled all of the money at the schools on the correct side of the highway. I had a ton of disadvantages growing up. I got stopped by the cops as a kid in my neighborhood all the time. But, like you said, I got a hair cut, I hide my country accent all the time and I wound up on Wall St and no one would have a fucking clue where I came from. I own my privilege outright.

But, that does not mean I am not going to get mad when someone takes my own agency away from me. I have a lot of advantages in my life. A lot more than most people, but not as many as others. I donate a lot of my money and time to charitable causes, and I am an incredibly loving kind person who will absolutely go to bat for my friends and loved ones. It sickens me that white people voted for Donald Trump. It makes me mad knowing most of my family did the same. I got thrown out of my fathers house for standing up for LGBT rights two weeks ago and was told not to go see my grandfather in the hospital because I told my cousin to take his pepe the frog pin off at Christmas or I would leave.

I am not saying that I have any idea what it is like to walk in someone elses skin, but I know what it is like to walk in my skin. So, when I see a snarky picture that is clearly aimed at three specific white women I am going to get mad, because the author of the photo has no idea what their story is either and what they have been through.

I absolutely understand that I need to shut the fuck up and listen when it comes to what I can do to help minority groups and POC in this country, because I don't know. I know i need to shut the fuck up and listen when it comes to how policies affect different communities. I know those things, but listening and compassion are a two way street, and there has been a lot of malice thrown around between friends since this weekend.

So yeah, when I see these women, I see women that might have been passed over for a promotion, or raped, or lost a mother or aunt to a back street abortion. Who have kids in the military who may be afraid of a coming war. Everyone has a story, and empathy and love is a really hard emotion to come to, and I'm not trying to tell anyone else how they should feel, but I will explain where my defensiveness comes from.

And I am not going to let anyone who has never met me on a forum tell me who I am or what I am about, because while I may not walk in their shoes, they sure as shit don't walk in mine.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

I can when I see that shit on a daily basis. I can when anytime a BLM protest happens the same people come out the woodwork to say "They aren't protesting the right way" I can when countless amounts of bullshit happens through the year and I don't wanna hear it anymore. You know who matters? Allies who understand when they are needed and when they aren't.

"I wish to be able to talk down to my allies, demand they help only on my terms, and expect them to be there at my call and ONLY at my call".

Forget protesting, you should play DOTA2. You'd be a natural.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Is individualism that ingrained that one can't look past themselves or how as a group they can help the disadvantaged?

Am I missing something or is that not exactly what Women's March was? Under the group label of "women", individuals came together in a massive protest against bigotry and oppression.

 

[LionPride]

Yup. Whatever it takes to get Democrats in office at every possible position.

Nope. Short term gain that can lead to long term issues. That fuck boy who doesn't really wanna help ain't needed. That fragile ass person who can't take no for an answer when a minority tells them something is not needed.

On GAF being white means every cop tips his hat to you when you go down the street and politicians come directly to your house to ask for your approval on legislation.

On GAF being black means my life does not matter to a lotta people in America.

Oh wait

 

[LionPride]

The number one job would actually be the midterm elections in 2018, because it's not looking great for the Dems right now.

Not at all

"I wish to be able to talk down to my allies, demand they help only on my terms, and expect them to be there at my call and ONLY at my call".

Forget protesting, you should play DOTA2. You'd be a natural.

"I wish to act as if I am saying something when I am saying nothing at all!"

Hey guess what? Sometimes ya help ain't needed. Sorry.

 

[CrocMother]

Nope. Short term gain that can lead to long term issues. That fuck boy who doesn't really wanna help ain't needed. That fragile ass person who can't take no for an answer when a minority tells them something is not needed.

Welp good luck on whatever it is you're doing then, the rest of us are going to actually try and solve these problems and help people.

 

[Jenov]

You know how we solve climate change? By treating people who don't look like us like they're still people, so we can actually do some real work together.

I didn't decide that this is the order, but this is what the evidence reveals. Refer to an earlier post in this thread about the relatively passive approach the police took to the women's march compared to BLM. How white women were hi-fiving police officers.

It is terribly insulting for white women to be stealing the limelight right now.

What a toxic attitude... and your earlier posts, wtf.

 

[Zoc]

I can when I see that shit on a daily basis. I can when anytime a BLM protest happens the same people come out the woodwork to say "They aren't protesting the right way" I can when countless amounts of bullshit happens through the year and I don't wanna hear it anymore. You know who matters? Allies who understand when they are needed and when they aren't.

You're talking like Obama is still the president. Women can't just fight for women anymore, and black people cant just fight for black people anymore. Everyone has to unite against Trump.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Not at all

"I wish to act as if I am saying something when I am saying nothing at all!"

Hey guess what? Sometimes ya help ain't needed. Sorry.

You demand change, lack the ability to do it yourself, but dismiss outright the help of others willing to assist you.

So do you want white people on your side or not? Things aren't going to change without them, and nobody does anything for free.

 

[Deepwater]

I really find it troubling that people ITT are talking about black people and women as two completely different groups as if black women don't exist. Kind of the whole point of the OP. This failure to make that distinction and talk about the nuances of those intersecting identities and how it plays (specifically) with the woman's side of the aisle is why black/WoC are upset.

But it seems like a lot of you are reacting without an adequate knowledge of black women in the feminist movement. But that's okay. I see it happen a lot on here.

 

[LionPride]

You're talking like Obama is still the president. Women can't just fight for women anymore, and black people cant just fight for black people anymore. Everyone has to unite against Trump.

In terms of Trump, maybe. Overall? Nope

You demand change, lack the ability to do it yourself, but dismiss outright the help of others willing to assist you.

So do you want white people on your side or not? Things aren't going to change without them, and nobody does anything for free.

Not every white person is needed in terms of fighting for Black Rights yo. Not at all. If there is one thing I have learned here, it's that not everyone who says they wanna help mean it. One thing they interpret as against them or their feelings get hurt, they will leave quick as hell

 

[LionPride]

I really find it troubling that people ITT are talking about black people and women as two completely different groups as if black women don't exist. Kind of the whole point of the OP. This failure to make that distinction and talk about the nuances of those intersecting identities and how it plays (specifically) with the woman's side of the aisle is why black/WoC are upset.

But it seems like a lot of you are reacting without an adequate knowledge of black women in the feminist movement. But that's okay. I see it happen a lot on here.

The amount of problems that exist for Black Feminists within the Feminist movement is absurd. White Feminism needs to go away

 

[FZZ]

Minoritites came out and voted for Clinton

White people voted Trump

Hell yes imma be mad about it, and if it divides "us" further then so be it. I have zero tolerance for voting for a demagogue and bigoted piece of living shit, and if you're salty we're calling it out then I question where your interests and values lie in the first place.

Shit is so annoying, and tbh I bet a majority of the 47% of women are mad about the other 53% too and aren't as nearly as offended as some of you are in this thread.

 

[Crocodile]

It's not about that as a movement no, but the arguments people make and the messages they say paint that image and it fucking harms the movements. I'm in 100% agreement on all the advantage stuff I never argued otherwise. I've just been simply saying people need to learn how to get their statements across with out extreme friction and sparking anti movements. Once those two flames are lit you lead up to growing radicals of both sides and it typically makes the progressive helpful one get painted in a bad light from said shouting match. Because people hate change so they look for excuses to deny said changes.

We live in a world where just saying "Black Lives Matter" triggers some White people into thinking we are saying they matter more or that White lives don't matter (obviously untrue statements). Like I can get down with not being a raging asshole but to a lot of people who say "protest or speak the right way", there is no actual right way that makes them happy. It's why I'm so unsympathetic to so many viewpoints that talk about the "right way" to do things (to say nothing of the fact that I feel history shows that being delicate with your words and actions is not the way progress is usually made). Like look at this quote below:

On GAF being white means every cop tips his hat to you when you go down the street and politicians come directly to your house to ask for your approval on legislation.

I'm sure the number of actual people who've said that on GAF can probably be counted on one or two hands but its clear just talking about issues on race triggers that response in people. It's obnoxious and its that reaction that is really holding back progress - not that a few PoC or whoever were overzealous in their critiques. Again, I generally agree with you QisTopTier that if we can avoid being assholes that would be great. That's never been and never will be the biggest issue or what is holding progress back however.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Not every white person is needed in terms of fighting for Black Rights yo. Not at all.

If you are going to passive-aggressively tear into monoliths for not voting towards your interests then, yes, you need as many of them as possible. That's the whole point of the tweet that started this thread.

 

[QisTopTier]

Not every white person is needed in terms of fighting for Black Rights yo. Not at all.

They are not saying literally EVERY white person, they are talking about the ones that put the effort in to speak and spread the positive messages and educate people about the issues. They are not suggesting neo-nazis join the movement and you should accept them only to get fucked over later or something stupid like that.

Shit the more asian and hispanic people that join in too the better. The long term goal is proper equality for everyone. Race/Women/LGBT community/ect.

 

[LionPride]

Minoritites came out and voted for Clinton

White people voted Trump

Hell yes imma be mad about it, and if it divides "us" further then so be it. I have zero tolerance for voting for a demagogue and bigoted piece of living shit, and if you're salty we're calling it out then I question where your interests and values lie in the first place.

Shit is so annoying, and tbh I bet a majority of the 47% of women are mad about the other 53% too and aren't as nearly as offended as some of you are in this thread.

Yep

If you are going to passive-aggressively tear into monoliths for not voting towards your interests then, yes, you need as many of them as possible. That's the whole point of the tweet that started this thread.

Agree to disagree.

They are not saying literally EVERY white person, they are talking about the ones that put the effort in to speak and spread the positive messages and educate people about the issues. They are not suggesting neo-nazis join the movement and you should accept them only to get fucked over later or something stupid like that.

Shit the more asian and hispanic people that join in too the better. The long term goal is proper equality for everyone. Race/Women/LGBT community/ect.

You know I've been saying that my issue comes from "allies" who drop when they feelings get hurt, right? I do agree we need more Hispanic/Latino and Asian people. Happened in the past, why not now

 

[Staccat0]

I really find it troubling that people ITT are talking about black people and women as two completely different groups as if black women don't exist. Kind of the whole point of the OP. This failure to make that distinction and talk about the nuances of those intersecting identities and how it plays (specifically) with the woman's side of the aisle is why black/WoC are upset.

But it seems like a lot of you are reacting without an adequate knowledge of black women in the feminist movement. But that's okay. I see it happen a lot on here.

I mean, people in this thread are acting like this is their first time voting. People are acting shocked that republicans women are white.

 

[Deepwater]

You demand change, lack the ability to do it yourself, but dismiss outright the help of others willing to assist you.

So do you want white people on your side or not? Things aren't going to change without them, and nobody does anything for free.

"If you guys want to be treated equally, you have to be nice to us!

lmao

This mindset is why some black people get so feisty. You're literally framing our fight for freedom from oppression hinge upon whether or not you make the decision to be benevolent. Do you not see how much of an asshole this makes you look like?

This is like an abusive husband lecturing his wife on what she needs to do in order to stop his abuse.

 

[Zoc]

Agree to disagree.

Not an option right now. Either you're trying to change things or you're in the way.

 

[theignoramus]

So do you want white people on your side or not? Things aren't going to change without them, and nobody does anything for free.

This is why that one BLM group wanted a Black only meeting, they didnt want to have to deal with this shit right here. The arrogance. The condescension.
This thread reaffirms my belief in civil rights movements that "do for self."

 

[ReaperXL7]

I mean, people in this thread are acting like this is their first time voting. People are acting shocked that republicans locals are white.

Hate to break this to you but Republicans come in all shapes and colors. I live in south Florida, I know many Cubans and Haitans who are 100% republican and voted for Donald J Trump.

 

[Trojita]

Hypothesis.

I mean, do you have any way to prove this?

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Someone who didn't completely miss the point the way you just did mentioned this as an interesting aside, and my reply to that addresses your silly objection. Read the thread.

I read the thread and I cannot see how you can claim an 8 point swing in the largest voting bloc would somehow not matter under any alternative scenario you can come up with.

Please explain.

And for the record, if it broke 51 43 the other way, we should still have this same conversation. National headlines might say "FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT", but we know who put her there.

I mean if you want to look at the issues from this perspective I think it goes in all directions, and it never gets better.

There are Black people who voted for Trump, should all people of the race be held accountable? No
There are Hispanic people who voted for Trump, should people of that race be held accountable? No
There are Native fucking Americans that voted for Trump...

Over the weekend I saw a black guy verbally abuse an Asian lady because she had a Clinton bumper sticker telling her that she needed to wake up because the "Best man" won.

Yes, Some white Women voted for Trump, but your ire should not in anyway be directed at the women who are there on the ground at your side, the likelihood that the women who voted for Trump are going to these marches is not non exsiststant but I bet it's pretty low.My wife is a white woman despite some heavy fucking bullshit directed at me when I was younger because I was betraying my ancestors, I thought it was bullshit then and I still stand by that because my wife is a good woman who would help anyone she was able to regardless of their situation in life race or gender.

Part of the problem with talking Race politics in this country is that too many only truely care about their own problems or problems faced by their race or gender exclusively because they feel no one else cares. White people often do not think about the problems faced by black people because they feel it doesn't effect them. Black people don't give a fuck about the problems faced by Asians because it doesn't effect them. Asians don't generally care about shit that's bothering Hispanics. Only when the issue is effecting you directly does it motivate people to do something about it. This is the thing that needs to change and coming together at times like this is the best time to even try to began to fix many of the problems that all boil down to apathy and ignorance in a large portion of issues. Directing your anger to the people standing at your shoulder does nothing but widen the gap and give power to people like Trump.

It's not about assigning blame to the people marching next to you, it's a call for them to realize that when push came to shove with regard to privilege vs gender, a majority of white women voted to preserve their privilege. That is something white feminists need to reckon with in order for them to move forward. If they ever decide to move forward.

You can't decry #NotAllMen on one hand, and then go "it wasn't us!" when they ask you for receipts.

 

[LionPride]

Not an option right now. Either you're trying to change things or you're in the way.

I'm in the way because I don't believe every person we can get is needed? Cool beans bro

I mean, do you have any way to prove this?

Nope. I just believe that if you paired them two together, she wins. A lot of Bernie supporters went to Jill, Gary, or wrote someone in

 

[Staccat0]

Hate to break this to you but Republicans come in all shapes and colors. I live in south Florida, I know many Cubans and Haitans who are 100% republican and voted for Donald J Trump.

Not sure why you are telling me this, but the condescending tone makes me wonder what you thought my point was?

 

[Ryuuroden]

Heh, guess it's time to blame black men for not voting for Clinton enough.

Spoiler

/s

Don't we know why?
- Racism, e.g. they blame immigrants for taking their jerbs more than they care about their own rights
- Evangelical/pro-life single issue voters


What the fuck are you talking about? Who is "you" here? StoOge? Or the average marcher? Maybe it's true but you don't actually know that, and claiming this as fact is insulting as hell to those who are actually activists. Come on.


True.

How this translates to doing exactly the same thing to white allies is beyond me. Two wrongs don't make a right.


???
No it's not. White fragility would be taking offense at trivial things (e.g. that guy who cried about being called a "white boy") when minorities have to deal with real shit.

White people who voted Clinton and who are marching, a lot of whom have actively opposed Trump, campaigned against him, etc. should rightly be miffed when they are lumped in with Trump voters. This isn't white fragility.


? No, what's disingenuous is what you just wrote, tbh.
You can fight against breast cancer in one campaign, and prostate cancer in another, without saying one is more important. Playing the oppression Olympics is not helpful.


No one is doing that. I don't even know why you think this is happening.

How would you like it if I said "BLM is fine and dandy, but what about women? A black man was elected president twice, and both times he won against experienced white politicians. An experienced white woman lost to an inexperienced, incompetent, clownish, evil man. Women are therefore taken less seriously than black men, so BLM should focus on gender more than race, since women make 50% of the population after all!"

You'd probably say I'm creating a distraction from what BLM is about and deflecting in counter-productive ways, and you'd be right.


Thank you.

Edit:


Unbelievable. Imagine if I dismissed your concerns as a black man to talk about women's issues. Or the very real issues LGBT people face.

There is no "central issues of our times". Holy shit. :\ This is why intersectionality matters.

Thank you for basically putting all my feelings I had when reading those comments into intelligent words of reply far better than I could have without getting frustrated. I mean that.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

edit: I'm an idiot please ignore me

 

[QisTopTier]

We live in a world where just saying "Black Lives Matter" triggers some White people into thinking we are saying they matter more or that White lives don't matter (obviously untrue statements). Like I can get down with not being a raging asshole but to a lot of people who say "protest or speak the right way", there is no actual right way that makes them happy. It's why I'm so unsympathetic to so many viewpoints that talk about the "right way" to do things (to say nothing of the fact that I feel history shows that being delicate with your words and actions is not the way progress is usually made). Like look at this quote below:



I'm sure the number of actual people who've said that on GAF can probably be counted on one or two hands but its clear just talking about issues on race triggers that response in people. It's obnoxious and its that reaction that is really holding back progress - not that a few PoC or whoever were overzealous in their critiques. Again, I generally agree with you QisTopTier that if we can avoid being assholes that would be great. That's never been and never will be the biggest issue or what is holding progress back however.

That's the problem, the overzealous people are the ones that end up getting focus which leads to those triggered reactions from white people. Trust me I'm not saying every argument needs to be sunshine and rainbows but people really need to try hard to not let emotion take over and try to always look at the biggest possible picture, how can what I say get this person to think about my view point. Just pissing someone off does no good. Just straight up labeling someone right away normally leads to no progress and zero thoughts about the other person's opinion.

People need to play the long game on complicated social matters, they need to slowly burn in their views and not be so hyper aggressive and spiteful. You can't just change someones opinion on something instantly and you most certainly can't get people to think about your view point if you are just screaming in their faces how wrong they are.

There are times and places for that of course sometimes agressively nonstop is a good thing. But in my mind I'm hoping the BLM movement is around for 10 even 20 years slowly pushing towards equal rights and equal treatments. Because that's how a society as a whole typically moves forward, not instantly but a nice slow burn of progression. Of course their are moments in history that things change very fast. But this is something that has been around for hundreds of years and longer and for women's rights stuff since the dawn of man and human societies

 

[Mik2121]

"If you guys want to be treated equally, you have to be nice to us!

lmao

This mindset is why some black people get so feisty.

As an outsider (Spaniard here), I was wondering something and I know I might be missing something.
I will ask this assuming most of you defending the issue at hand are somewhat in the same line of thought.

There seems to be a big concern and anger with white people voting for Trump, but you also don't want white people to help your cause since some can be very arrogant or condescending.
What is the goal for all these protests? Show the discomfort against a certain issue, or be able to gather the numbers in order to make a change?
To me it feels like most people in general are doing this in order to help with some outliers being arrogant or whatever they might be. Wouldn't you want any help possible in order to become as large a united group as possible?

Again, it's an honest question since I know I'm missing many things regarding this issue but I find it interesting that this is happening.
Edit: I reckon I'm probably simplifying things a lot as well, sorry.

 

[QisTopTier]

You know I've been saying that my issue comes from "allies" who drop when they feelings get hurt, right?

You don't know who those people are until the moment they back out.

 

[LionPride]

That's the problem, the overzealous people are the ones that end up getting focus which leads to those triggered reactions from white people. Trust me I'm not saying every argument needs to be sunshine and rainbows but people really need to try hard to not let emotion take over and try to always look at the biggest possible picture, how can what I say get this person to think about my view point. Just pissing someone off does no good. Just straight up labeling someone right away normally leads to no progress and zero thoughts about the other person's opinion.

People need to play the long game on complicated social matters, they need to slowly burn in their views and not be so hyper aggressive and spiteful. You can't just change someones opinion on something instantly and you most certainly can't get people to think about your view point if you are just screaming in their faces how wrong they are.

There are times and places for that of course sometimes agressively nonstop is a good thing. But in my mind I'm hoping the BLM movement is around for 10 even 20 years slowly pushing towards equal rights and equal treatments. Because that's how a society as a whole typically moves forward, not instantly but a nice slow burn of progression. Of course their are moments in history that things change very fast. But this is something that has been around for hundreds of years and longer and for women's rights stuff since the dawn of man and human societies

Black people have been fighting for centuries, women too. Certain shit changes faster than others, our rights won't be the next thing to be equal

You don't know who those people are until the moment they back out.

Eh, you can tell the signs. Just take GAF, all it took was Trump winning for "Moderates" to feel vindicated and some of these same people were supposed allies to different causes who would say "don't protest this way" or something like that

 

[.JayZii]

I'm a white male in a red state without a college degree and I voted Democrat, so I guess I'm doing my part?

How do we know you're not just saying that to look good in this public forum while staying silent while your family members spout bigoted rhetoric? Shame on you. Go look in a mirror.

 

[CrocMother]

Focusing on income inequality was the right move because it affects everyone. Once we get liberals in office, we can begin to tackle the issue of systemic racism. It's not happening before then unfortunately. We have to accept that we need ignorant racists to vote blue to institute positive change in this country. We can't just say "we don't need you because you're ignorant and don't understand". We need fucking everybody we can get. These issues need immediate attention, especially those related to the environment and climate change. Hundreds of thousands of people are going to be displaced due to rising sea levels, and persons of color are going to be disproportionately affected.

So you can take an ethical stand and say you don't need certain people. But black people need those people to vote democratic. There's no way around it.

 

[QisTopTier]

Black people have been fighting for centuries, women too. Certain shit changes faster than others, our rights won't be the next thing to be equal

Yup, but the problem is you have too many people expecting it all to be changed right now and they want it now. I really wish that was something that could happen of course but people just don't magically change like that. There are so many little things that need to be done and so much more old guard mentalities that need to for lack of a more elegant way to put it die off.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

"If you guys want to be treated equally, you have to be nice to us!

lmao

This mindset is why some black people get so feisty. You're literally framing our fight for freedom from oppression hinge upon whether or not you make the decision to be benevolent. Do you not see how much of an asshole this makes you look like?

This is like an abusive husband lecturing his wife on what she needs to do in order to stop his abuse.

I'm not being arrogant, I'm being real. It's a shitty situation but it's how it is. Slavery in the U.S. ended because one group of white people decided to stop and fought another over it. Civil Rights legislation throughout American history has been passed with nearly all-white congresses and supreme courts. White people have always played a huge moving role in the equality movement, because white people (not the monolith, individuals) tend to hold most of the power to get these things decided. It's always been about Black People convincing White People about why they should treat them equally. Humans in general have trouble doing things just because "It's the right thing to do". Hell, it's rarity is why we consider it to be a virtue.

Or, let me put it this way. If you could do it yourself, it would be done by now.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I'm not being arrogant, I'm being real. It's a shitty situation but it's how it is. Slavery in the U.S. ended because one group of white people decided to stop and fought another over it. Civil Rights legislation throughout American history has been passed with nearly all-white congresses and supreme courts. White people have always played a huge moving role in the equality movement, because white people (not the monolith, individuals) tend to hold most of the power to get these things decided. It's always been about Black People convincing White People about why they should treat them equally. Humans in general have trouble doing things just because "It's the right thing to do". Hell, it's rarity is why we consider it to be a virtue.

Or, let me put it this way. If you could do it yourself, it would be done by now.

lol i dunno even know why people like you pretend to care

 

[Gotchaye]

I read the thread and I cannot see how you can claim an 8 point swing in the largest voting bloc would somehow not matter under any alternative scenario you can come up with.

Please explain.

And for the record, if it broke 51 43 the other way, we should still have this same conversation. National headlines might say "FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT", but we know who put her there.

What is your point? Like, I'm not only baffled at your inability to imagine a possible world where about 1 in 50 white women switch from Clinton to Trump while at the same time about 1 in 100 other voters switch from Trump to Clinton and there's slightly better turnout in several deep blue areas without much effect in key swing states, I also have no idea why you're so intent on fighting over the possibility of that world. Hell, maybe that's this world - all we've got to go on here are exit polls! But who cares? It doesn't matter to what I was saying! The possible world where Clinton wins white women with 51% but loses the election was there just to provide something concrete to help people get their heads around the unimportance of 50% as a threshold, despite all the talk about a "majority" as if that makes considering this much more urgent.

 

[LionPride]

I'm not being arrogant, I'm being real. It's a shitty situation but it's how it is. Slavery in the U.S. ended because one group of white people decided to stop and fought another over it. Civil Rights legislation throughout American history has been passed with nearly all-white congresses and supreme courts. White people have always played a huge moving role in the equality movement, because white people (not the monolith, individuals) tend to hold most of the power to get these things decided. It's always been about Black People convincing White People about why they should treat them equally. Humans in general have trouble doing things just because "It's the right thing to do". Hell, it's rarity is why we consider it to be a virtue.

Or, let me put it this way. If you could do it yourself, it would be done by now.

I like how you don't realize why you yourself are part of the problem as a whole. You make me laugh bruh

Like this

Or, let me put it this way. If you could do it yourself, it would be done by now.

Is one of the worst things I've read here. And people have straight up called people racial slurs and shit here. Some vile shit has been said and yet this is in my top 5

Yup, but the problem is you have too many people expecting it all to be changed right now and they want it now. I really wish that was something that could happen of course but people just don't magically change like that. There are so many little things that need to be done and so much more old guard mentalities that need to for lack of a more elegant way to put it die off.

I don't think rational people want it now, maybe asking why it's been years yet Jamal is not equal to Chad or whatever, but understand shit takes time. It's been centuries and women and men ain't equal, certainly not when it comes to minorities paired with ya average white guy, so people will keep fighting for years to come.

 

[Zoc]

I'm in the way because I don't believe every person we can get is needed? Cool beans bro

That's not the only reason. You're promoting the same kind of thinking that lost the election.

Progressivism isn't about helping any one group of people, it's about ending discrimination in general, because it hurts everyone. The concept of privilege is a genius way of explaining why the fight for progressivism isn't just the fight of black people, women, or LGBT people, but everyone's fight.

The only problem is that no one has come up with a good way of explaining privilege to poor white people without making them think that they are being attacked, which is the exact opposite of what the idea should do. I truly believe that if someone could somehow explain the concept of privilege to poor whites, they would see that BLM and other protest groups are their allies, not just neutral, or even opposed.

The kind of divisive ideas you've been describing in this thread are going to make things worse in this regard, not better, because it's just going to confirm to these people that progressivism is about bringing white people down to pull black people up, when that's not true at all.

 

[LionPride]

That's not the only reason. You're promoting the same kind of thinking that lost the election.

Progressivism isn't about helping any one group of people, it's about ending discrimination in general, because it hurts everyone. The concept of privilege is a genius way of explaining why the fight for progressivism isn't just the fight of black people, women, or LGBT people, but everyone's fight.

The only problem is that no one has come up with a good way of explaining privilege to poor white people without making them think that they are being attacked, which is the exact opposite of what the idea should do. I truly believe that if someone could somehow explain the concept of privilege to poor whites, they would see that BLM and other protest groups are their allies, not just neutral, or even opposed.

The kind of divisive ideas you've been describing in this thread are going to make things worse in this regard, not better, because it's just going to confirm to these people that progressivism is about bringing white people down to pull black people up, when that's not true at all.

If that's what people get from anything I have said, then they aren't the type of people I want to talk to. If people believe I want to bring white people down, then that's on them shit

What lost the election was not people like me, the people who said "I don't care about this vile piece of trash, I can still vote for him despite everything he said" Lost the election for Clinton.

 

[King Tubby]

Someone who is down for the cause in every manner possible casts a vote that's worth just as much as someone who never goes to a single march, protest, or demonstration and votes one way or the other based on petty shit. If you can't come up with any positive benefit out of antagonising and pushing the latter type away, why do it? To let off steam? No thanks.

 

[Trojita]

I'm not helping? I'm not helping because I think that a fake ally who will drop the cause at a moment's notice because they feel a bit slighted ain't needed? I'm not helping? Aight. I'm undoing the work of people who are helping? You better move on somewhere with that shit


It certainly means that if you really really try hard enough

An ally can support the cause and still see that poster in the OP and especially those twitter conversations are divisive. Are you dropping them? Does even bringing it up cause you to drop them? Do you know these people won't continue the cause?