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[SomTervo]

The title is misleading. Any bill must pass three readings before it becomes a piece of legislation and takes effect. MPs merely voted in favour of the first reading, which is a largely formal stage - there's no debate or opportunity for amendment, the vote is to determine whether the bill in question is even worth being debated or amended in the first place or whether it should just be thrown out entirely. It is completely obvious that most MPs - even those representing Remain constituencies - would vote for at least this stage of the bill. Regardless of your opinion on Brexit, you cannot possibly pretend that, at this stage, the notion of Leaving is not something that should be treated to full parliamentary process. The second and third readings (and the battle in the Lords) will likely drag on for some time, and there will be many opportunities to vote against or amend the bill at a point it actually matters.

Having said that, nobody understands how parliamentary procedure works and newspapers report it terribly, and I suspect a large number of MPs who voted against this reading know that, and are doing so in a PR move to avoid "voted for Brexit" being on their CV, rather than because they have any actual ambitions to stop the bill by trying to forge alliances with soft Leavers or the like.

Interesting, thanks for the deeper info.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

No. If there are no checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and no checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, then as an EU national I could travel to the Republic, cross into the North, and travel to the UK. To stop this, there would need to be checks either between the Republic and the North, or the North and Great Britain. You can't really get around that. Either would be damaging, but I suspect the checks will be implemented between the North and Great Britain simply because you usually have to bring some form of ID to get on internal plane flights and there's massive queue for ferries anyway and adding a passport check is only a marginal degree of extra inconvenience; whereas checks between the Republic and the North is inviting the Troubles to reignite.

Yep, it's definitely the less controversial of the two options. As I said, Ryanair (one of only five carriers between ROI and UK according to Skyscanner) already requires a passport to fly, so I don't think there'd be much outrage if the remaining carriers also brought in such a policy. In terms of inconvenience to the traveller having those E-passport gates is pretty much as good as there being no check (although there was a bloody big queue last time I was at Heathrow - half of the gates were turned off for some reason!).

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

No. If there are no checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and no checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, then as an EU national I could travel to the Republic, cross into the North, and travel to the UK. To stop this, there would need to be checks either between the Republic and the North, or the North and Great Britain. You can't really get around that. Either would be damaging, but I suspect the checks will be implemented between the North and Great Britain simply because you usually have to bring some form of ID to get on internal plane flights and there's massive queue for ferries anyway and adding a passport check is only a marginal degree of extra inconvenience; whereas checks between the Republic and the North is inviting the Troubles to reignite.

Jobs check for right to work so an open border with Ireland is something that won't matter too much.

 

[Sephiroth503]

Yep, it's definitely the less controversial of the two options. As I said, Ryanair (one of only five carriers between ROI and UK according to Skyscanner) already requires a passport to fly, so I don't think there'd be much outrage if the remaining carriers also brought in such a policy. In terms of inconvenience to the traveller having those E-passport gates is pretty much as good as there being no check (although there was a bloody big queue last time I was at Heathrow - half of the gates were turned off for some reason!).

Indeed. I'm not sure how a customs border will operate in this scenario, undoubtedly it will be a big part in the Irish-UK sections of the negotiations. A customs border will push us to the old hard border between the countries.

 

[zonetrooper5]

EU will lose out from bad Brexit deal on City, says leaked report

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-leaked-report-european-parliament-article-50

The man who wrote Article 50 says Brexit can still be stopped

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ord-kerr-high-court-theresa-may-a7394816.html

 

[Arksy]

The issue of indyref2 and the concept of having devolved nations has been fascinating for me...Although to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of how the UK has dealt with devolution. Personally I would have preferred a formal federal type structure with an actual separation of powers rather than what appears to be a moderate dispersal of power with an absolute veto held at the federal level.

To their credit, having allowed the previous indyref to go ahead on reasonably straight forward terms, the Tories have at least shown they have been bona fide on the issue. I can't imagine indyref2 being allowed at this stage, I mean, what do the Tories have to lose in terms of not allowing it? It seems that no one in Scotland votes for them anyway. The Tories can in a way act with impunity...which I find a somewhat terrible prospect.

 

[DarthMasta]

I don't understand all these news about how the EU will lose from a bad Brexit agreement?
Is this so Brits can make themselves feel better?

Because, newsflash, why do you think the EU wasn't terribly keen on Britain leaving? Because it will hurt the EU. That's obvious. That's not exactly news. The economies are fairly interconnected, a divorce isn't going to be painless for either side.

I mean, sure, there's the symbolic aspect of the thing, and Britain is a superpower culturally speaking, but at the end of the day, it'll be money. Brexit doesn't keep us from the latest Dr Who or GoT. There might even be some better music coming from your shores.

But of course it'll hurt the economy, at the very least. But, here's the thing, Britain is not prioritizing the economy, and humans being human, there's probably going to be some tit for tat. That's what I would bet on, if I was a betting man.

 

[Oberon]

Germany on the fast track to being the most powerful country on Earth.

It's kind of like the PS4. It wins by not making the most stupid decisions.

 

[CyclopsRock]

No. If there are no checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and no checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, then as an EU national I could travel to the Republic, cross into the North, and travel to the UK. To stop this, there would need to be checks either between the Republic and the North, or the North and Great Britain. You can't really get around that. Either would be damaging, but I suspect the checks will be implemented between the North and Great Britain simply because you usually have to bring some form of ID to get on internal plane flights and there's massive queue for ferries anyway and adding a passport check is only a marginal degree of extra inconvenience; whereas checks between the Republic and the North is inviting the Troubles to reignite.

Right - and I have a great deal of experience of the border in Gibraltar where they theoretically check passports but in reality the only ones that actually do get checked are non-EU ones. Unless the Guardia Civil got orders from on high and artificially caused problems, it was a de facto open border, straight into Winston Churchill Avenue *wipes tear*

 

[SporeCrawler]

EU will lose out from bad Brexit deal on City, says leaked report

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-leaked-report-european-parliament-article-50

The man who wrote Article 50 says Brexit can still be stopped

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ord-kerr-high-court-theresa-may-a7394816.html

There will be a shift if the financial world from london to other cities. I dont think that will magically mean that certain companies owe the london banks more money or that they are unable to borrow from banks abroad. Long term loans may need to be refinanced to european banks but that doesnt strike me as a shock

 

[GamingKaiju]

There will be a shift if the financial world from london to other cities. I dont think that will magically mean that certain companies owe the london banks more money or that they are unable to borrow from banks abroad. Long term loans may need to be refinanced to european banks but that doesnt strike me as a shock

Most if not all Euro clearings are done in London. That'll alone is a problem for the EU.

Markets are not liking todays news, very bearish.

 

[Dougald]

The Whitepaper has been published for anyone interested in reading it

 

[killer_clank]

Jobs check for right to work so an open border with Ireland is something that won't matter too much.

Yeah this is what it'll end up being - there might be a problem post brexit of illegal EU migration depending on how strict work permits end up being (my guess is not very) simple because entry criteria for EU nationals isn't suddenly going to become super strict.

 

[HazySaiyan]

The Whitepaper has been published for anyone interested in reading it

Because after all the division and discord, the country is coming together.

The referendum was divisive at times. And those divisions have taken time to heal.

What planet is she on? The country is more divided then it's ever been.

 

[killer_clank]

What planet is she on? The country is more divided then it's ever been.

For what it's worth the government are convinced the country is coming together because a lot of remainders have accepted that Brexit is happening and now want the best deal - the government takes that to mean we're all fine now, whereas i imagine it's like me where I'm raging that it's happening but accepting that it will and of course would want the best deal (though for me that's single market membership, so they're already disappointing me there)

 

[Dirtyshubb]

They don't really believe we are coming together, they know damn well that half the country hates what they are doing.

The problem is that they also know that they can simply ignore protests and that they have the papers doing everything they can to be pro brexit so what do they need to worry about?

Same as Trump, he sees that you can basically ignore what's going on and pretend it's fine and that's it. If things start getting heated you start changing the rules to shut the dissenters up or at least reduce their voice. That's probably part of the reason the UK government wants out of the EU because they can finally strip away all the regulations to give them more power and reduce any potential repercussions.

Unless the half of the country that supports them decides to switch sides we are fucked. It's the equivalent of a games company saying a bombed game is "meeting their expectations", it's not true but what can you do?

 

[Chinner]

For what it's worth the government are convinced the country is coming together because a lot of remainders have accepted that Brexit is happening and now want the best deal - the government takes that to mean we're all fine now, whereas i imagine it's like me where I'm raging that it's happening but accepting that it will and of course would want the best deal (though for me that's single market membership, so they're already disappointing me there)

Country is not coming together. Remain voters have been abandoned and turned into the common enemy, and they have little (or fair) representation in the media.

 

[Messofanego]

Can't wait for the Brexgrets. Anyone got a compilation of the ones already displayed?

 

[StayDead]

The title is misleading. Any bill must pass three readings before it becomes a piece of legislation and takes effect. MPs merely voted in favour of the first reading, which is a largely formal stage - there's no debate or opportunity for amendment, the vote is to determine whether the bill in question is even worth being debated or amended in the first place or whether it should just be thrown out entirely. It is completely obvious that most MPs - even those representing Remain constituencies - would vote for at least this stage of the bill. Regardless of your opinion on Brexit, you cannot possibly pretend that, at this stage, the notion of Leaving is not something that should be treated to full parliamentary process. The second and third readings (and the battle in the Lords) will likely drag on for some time, and there will be many opportunities to vote against or amend the bill at a point it actually matters.

Having said that, nobody understands how parliamentary procedure works and newspapers report it terribly, and I suspect a large number of MPs who voted against this reading know that, and are doing so in a PR move to avoid "voted for Brexit" being on their CV, rather than because they have any actual ambitions to stop the bill by trying to forge alliances with soft Leavers or the like.

Thank you for this. I had no idea.

 

[danowat]

Dunno about coming together, I've accepted what's happened and now want to try and mitigate the amount of shit this decision is going to cause, but I still wouldn't give anyone who voted Brexit the time of day.

 

[Pyramid head]

The Whitepaper has been published for anyone interested in reading it

Opened it and instantly closed it upon seeing that cunt's grinning face.

 

[operon]

No. If there are no checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and no checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, then as an EU national I could travel to the Republic, cross into the North, and travel to the UK. To stop this, there would need to be checks either between the Republic and the North, or the North and Great Britain. You can't really get around that. Either would be damaging, but I suspect the checks will be implemented between the North and Great Britain simply because you usually have to bring some form of ID to get on internal plane flights and there's massive queue for ferries anyway and adding a passport check is only a marginal degree of extra inconvenience; whereas checks between the Republic and the North is inviting the Troubles to reignite.

Seems there are going to have to be customs checks on the border between North and South anyway so I can see them having passport checks there as well

May's plan for 'frictionless' border with Ireland after Brexit cannot be achieved, MPs told
Theresa May's declaration that she wants a ”seamless, frictionless border" post Brexit in Ireland amounted to meaningless ”nice words", the government has been told.
The Northern Ireland affairs select committee has been told by two customs lawyers with decades of experience of border controls that the continuing free movement of goods is legally impossible if the UK quits the Customs Union in a hard Brexit.
Retired customs trade lawyer Michael Lux, who worked for the German ministry of finance, has said Theresa May can do what she likes once the UK leaves the European Union but that Ireland Taoiseach Enda Kenny will have to apply EU law with no choice but to have customs checks on the border. He said:
If Northern Ireland is no longer part of the customs union, Ireland is obliged to apply all these rules, what is done on the UK side if it's outside the EU they can do what they want.
His two hours of evidence drew audible gasps from MPs as he told how every vehicle carrying goods worth more than €300 crossing from Ireland into Northern Ireland would have to be stopped, even if only ”for a few minutes" and checked.
Every driver would have to have an ”export declaration" document before travel which would have to be cross-checked by a human being at a border check.
”It is important to understand, it isn't just about customs, it is also about VAT and excise on alcohol and cigarettes," he said.
Dux, who has 40 years experience in customs trade law, told how dogs taken for a walk from south of the border would need documentation as would horses being ridden for pleasure on the border region. This is currently the case on the German/Swiss border, he said.
His comments do not bode well for May and Kenny who have warned that a return to the checkpoints of the past could imperil the fragile peace in the region. Asked by Lady Hermon what he thought of Theresa May's comments this week in Dublin when she said she wanted a ”seamless, frictionless border", Dux replied: ”Well these are nice words but what does that mean?"
Even if the export declaration paperwork was electronic, a customs official would still be required to check the reference number for the freight and declare the ”export movement closed" he said.
Lux told how cross-border customs charges and possible tariffs could be the death-knell for cross-border dairy production.
Medium-sized businesses might need two people to do the administration, or they could use an agent which would charge typically between €50 and €80 per consignment for an export declaration number, explained Lux.
Even if shrewd businesses got the cost of the export declaration document down to €20, the cost of continually moving milk and milk products back and forth would be prohibitive, Lux said.
Asked if Northern Ireland could get a ”waiver" from the EU because of the special conditions pertaining to the island, lawyer Eric Pickett, an expert in World Trade Organisation rules and international trade law, said this was legally impossible.
”It would be a strict violation of WTO law," he said.

from the Guardians live blog yesterday.
This is going to cause a lot of trouble

 

[Uzzy]

The title is misleading. Any bill must pass three readings before it becomes a piece of legislation and takes effect. MPs merely voted in favour of the first reading, which is a largely formal stage - there's no debate or opportunity for amendment, the vote is to determine whether the bill in question is even worth being debated or amended in the first place or whether it should just be thrown out entirely. It is completely obvious that most MPs - even those representing Remain constituencies - would vote for at least this stage of the bill. Regardless of your opinion on Brexit, you cannot possibly pretend that, at this stage, the notion of Leaving is not something that should be treated to full parliamentary process. The second and third readings (and the battle in the Lords) will likely drag on for some time, and there will be many opportunities to vote against or amend the bill at a point it actually matters.

Having said that, nobody understands how parliamentary procedure works and newspapers report it terribly, and I suspect a large number of MPs who voted against this reading know that, and are doing so in a PR move to avoid "voted for Brexit" being on their CV, rather than because they have any actual ambitions to stop the bill by trying to forge alliances with soft Leavers or the like.

They voted in favour of the second reading of the bill last night. It's now onto the committee stage.

 

[Plum]

Future of our children decided by those most likely to die before the negative kickback.

Fucking hell.

The worst part is that the cunts have fucked everything so hard that by the time they all die out and the current young can actually get into power we'll be facing, at the very least, the beginnings of major climate change disasters.

We're fucked.

 

[TatteredHat]

My heart goes out to the remain folk and expats, but I want this shit over with as soon as possible. The UK government have been acting like complete wankers towards the EU for a long while now, what with the constant crying for special treatment.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The Whitepaper has been published for anyone interested in reading it

Exciting! I don't really have time to read 77 pages until the weekend, so I'd be interested to read people's comments and observations.

 

[Dan1984uk]

Is it true that some form of border would have to be created between Northern Ireland and the Republic due to the EU requiring a border between EU and non EU nations?

 

[Interface_2037]

The worst part is that the cunts have fucked everything so hard that by the time they all die out and the current young can actually get into power we'll be facing, at the very least, the beginnings of major climate change disasters.

We're fucked.

I LOL so hard when I read polemics like this.

Years from now, many of you will look back and cringe at the stuff you posted regarding Brexit.

 

[danowat]

Not convinced I like those who voted to remain being called "losers" in that white paper.

 

[Tregard]

No. If there are no checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and no checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, then as an EU national I could travel to the Republic, cross into the North, and travel to the UK. To stop this, there would need to be checks either between the Republic and the North, or the North and Great Britain. You can't really get around that. Either would be damaging, but I suspect the checks will be implemented between the North and Great Britain simply because you usually have to bring some form of ID to get on internal plane flights and there's massive queue for ferries anyway and adding a passport check is only a marginal degree of extra inconvenience; whereas checks between the Republic and the North is inviting the Troubles to reignite.

Plus you've got the trouble of Donegal up top, severing it from the rest of the Republic with borders would not go down well whatsoever

 

[Number45]

Not convinced I like those who voted to remain being called "losers" in that white paper.

Wait what...

Opened it and instantly closed it upon seeing that cunt's grinning face.

... nope, not even gonna open it.

 

[StayDead]

I LOL so hard when I read polemics like this.

Years from now, many of you will look back and cringe at the stuff you posted regarding Brexit.

I love how you're so certain everything will be fine. I'm happy that your optimistic, but I simply can't be. I have the facts and evidence presented to me by experts that say the exact opposite will be true.

 

[operon]

Is it true that some form of border would have to be created between Northern Ireland and the Republic due to the EU requiring a border between EU and non EU nations?

Some experts are saying there will have to be some sort of customs checks once the UK leaves the customs union

 

[danowat]

Wait what...

The victors have the responsibility to act magnanimously.
The losers have the responsibility to respect the legitimacy of the outcome. And the country comes together.

Pfftt....victors and losers fuck that shit, there are no winners in this war.

Also, the immigration chart shows that EU immigration, whilst AN issue, isn't THE issue, the increase in net migration is more tied to immigration from non-EU states.

 

[Interface_2037]

I have the facts and evidence presented to me by experts that say the exact opposite will be true.

No, you have opinions, not facts.

 

[Dougald]

Exciting! I don't really have time to read 77 pages until the weekend, so I'd be interested to read people's comments and observations.

I got as far down as "Strengthening the Union", which as a title seems like a big ask. I'll dig into the thing tonight

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

I miss Ed. At least he had a spine

 

[Number45]

Pfftt....victors and losers fuck that shit, there are no winners in this war.

Yeah - what is "bringing the country together" again? Fuck me.

So we have two nations trying their level best to ensure that they only hear what they want to hear. Excellent.

 

[Zaph]

Future of our children decided by those most likely to die before the negative kickback.

Fucking hell.

During Tuesday's debate, a pro-Brexit MP (who just so happens to fall into that demo.. ) was making the case for 'leading in global trade'. When asked by an SNP MP what makes him think other countries will go along with our outlook, his response was "I accept there will be trials along the way, but what is the harm in trying?".

An old man, at the end of his life, with wealth, a knighthood, and legacy, is happy to flippantly gamble the future of younger generations because "the harm in trying" will have little to no effect on him. Cunt.

 

[Dan1984uk]

Some experts are saying there will have to be some sort of customs checks once the UK leaves the customs union

Ah right thanks for replying, I have family on both sides of the border so was wondering what could happen.

 

[danowat]

the line goes where the net-non EU line goes?

 

[Interface_2037]

An old man, at the end of his life, with wealth, a knighthood, and legacy, is happy to flippantly gamble the future of younger generations because "the harm in trying" will have little to no effect on him. Cunt.

At what age do wish people's opinions to no longer count and the euthanasia culling begin?

A: 20
B: 30
C: 50

 

[PJV3]

I got as far down as "Strengthening the Union", which as a title seems like a big ask. I'll dig into the thing tonight

Brexit means Brexit great repeal bill.
Everything will be fine, no explanations.

Is that about it?

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

It's been decades since I took my GCSEs but it might be time to start a refresher course for German. I don't think I want to stay in the kind of UK that Tories and Brexiters dream of creating.

 

[Easy_D]

At what age do wish people's opinions to no longer count and the euthanasia culling begin?

A: 20
B: 30
C: 50

Implant a microchip that activates when the user utters the phrase "Things used to be better when..." and revoke voting rights immediately

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Pfftt....victors and losers fuck that shit, there are no winners in this war.

Also, the immigration chart shows that EU immigration, whilst AN issue, isn't THE issue, the increase in net migration is more tied to immigration from non-EU states.

This seems to be a common thing to point out for some reason, but I really dont get it. The EU countries have a combined population of ~500 million, the non-EU countries have a combined population of like 6.5 billion. Why should the two numbers be remotely similar? Under a fair system, non-EU immigration should be way higher than EU immigration.

 

[Zaph]

At what age do wish people's opinions to no longer count and the euthanasia culling begin?

A: 20
B: 30
C: 50

I'll go with -

D: When they flippantly disregard consequences because they won't be around for them

 

[danowat]

This seems to be a common thing to point out for some reason, but I really dont get it. The EU countries have a combined population of ~500 million, the non-EU countries have a combined population of like 6.5 billion. Why should the two numbers be remotely similar? Under a fair system, non-EU immigration should be way higher than EU immigration.

Because EU migration was the elephant in the room, it was painted as the sole reason for our over stretched services, EU migration was demonised.

The reality is different.

 

[pulsemyne]

the line goes where the net-non EU line goes?

Of course. It's always been a lie that mass migration was solely from the EU. Now you could tell the average ukipper that until you're blue in the face. You could also tell them that for those outside the EU we have total control of our borders. But they would never listen.
Arguing against a kipper is like pissing into a force 10 gale. Pointless and makes you the idiot for doing it in the first place.

 

[autumnleaf]

I LOL so hard when I read polemics like this.

Years from now, many of you will look back and cringe at the stuff you posted regarding Brexit.

Empowering racists like UKIP, a rise in hate crimes, closing borders (a possible break up of the UK?). These are not things people will cringe about not being happy with.