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[Schopenhauerian]

"a thought-provoking series of substance"
Yeah, I take serious issue with that...

Seriously that quote is BS. I have given more thought on how to solve original TRs puzzles than anything in the last 2 games.

Pretty sure that quote is about the story and character aspects of the series.

those are the weakest points of those games tho

He was being generous. Story and Character are so appalling they drag the whole game down.

Indeed. The 2013 reboot Lara simply had more story focus and dialogue... take that focus on dialogue and story, and use it with the actually interesting, unique and far more femenist old independent, thrill seeking... Lara, along with the same puzzle focused gameplay and globe trotting adventures with actual Tomb Raiding, and you'd have a masterpiece on your hands.

Kind of agree with the nuLara complaints. I really don't miss the massive tits or the skimpy clothes (design-wise, I think nuLara is pretty good) but some of that sassiness and charm wouldn't hurt at all. As she currently is, she's just an "eh" character for me, completely flavourless (a symptom I've found in a lot of Rihanna Pratchett's characters). The main problem of the new TR games for me is that there's a really big focus on the story and characters which are unoffensive at best, and that makes the flaws all that more apparent. I mean, the older TR games had a weak story too, but they were aware of that and just used the story as an excuse to have Lara travelling around exotic locations. Level design was Core Design's forte and they completely tailored the games around that aspect. I'd like for the new TR to trim the fat story-wise and focus on what it does well (and to add more tombs and not make them side-quests, damnit!)

...I'll concede that reboot Lara's visual design may be better (at least in terms of her outfits, stuff like her hair and facial features are rather more debatable) but when it comes to her backstory and personality, I find both reboot Lara and LAU Lara to be absolutely woeful, inferior iterations of the character clearly made by people who didn't know the subject matter they were working with (or didn't care about it)...

Some previous posts, from a similar point of view: one / two / three / four

However, on the subject of the Legend/Anniversary/Underworld games that some others have mentioned:

...Now, Tomb Raider is my favourite franchise ever, and I hate the reboots, but I do find it surprising that she did not mention anything about the possibility of

Spoiler

Tomb Raider Anniversary 2, given that it will be Tomb Raider 2's 20th anniversary later this year... a remake of that game has been my almost lifelong dream

...

The previous trilogy was a good combo of old style gameplay and tally characters...

There's a discussion from a previous thread that I think is very much worth considering: Differences in Gameplay and Design: Original Tomb Raider vs. the Legend/Anniversary/Underworld Games

...And yes, I know that Toby Gard worked as a consultant on Legend but... he suggested the terrible mummy in Avalon plot for Legend which completely negated some of the very core aspects of Lara's character.

Yeah, agree that Gard (and folks at Crystal Dynamics like Eric Lindstrom) made some questionable choices in their characterization of Lara for the 2006-2008 LAU trilogy, as I mentioned elsewhere.

 

[Caipirinha]

a thought-provoking series of substance

Call me when they make an actual Tomb Raider game.

 

[BigEmil]

The one thing I can't stand in the new tomb raiders is Lara's constant screaming. I don't know if the VO is just overacted or her voice in general is annoying asf to me.

Definitely, Lara's constant moaning and exaggerated ones too especially

 

[trejo]

Since its 1996 debut, the Tomb Raider franchise has evolved from pin-up lad mag material to a thought-provoking series of substance

Aaaand stopped reading right there. Lol what a joke.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Fair enough, what I meant was that it doesn't really say anything about their quality or the quality of their stories or reboot Lara's characterisation.

True, I just meant in terms of what matters to SE, which ultimately is sales. I am hoping for less combat and more puzzles in Shadow.

I don't really blame Rhianna for poor characterisation in ROTTR because 1) the characterisation in LAU was terrible, so it started before she got there and 2) in her exit interview she spoke on how she felt very restricted by the gameplay scenarios, as well as directions from above (which goes back to point 1). I'm hoping the next story will be better.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Atleast finish this series with a trilogy. I hate incomplete franchises

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

No shit, Sherlock, but an opinion or assessment doesn't automatically become more valid just because it's shared by a lot of people and your average mainstream media consumer isn't exactly known for their distinguished taste.

I said what I said cuz GAF often thinks it shares the opinions of what every gamer outside of GAF is saying and then is surprised to find out that it's the complete opposite. Right now everyone is acting all surprised they're sticking with this direction and playing revisionist history that this reboot is a "failure". I'm not saying you can't criticize the quality.

 

[Arklite]

co-op endurance mode is pretty fun for the first few hours, after that it gets repetitive because there are only 2 or 3 crypt layouts, plus only one setting (siberia). they should have included a lot more variations and multiple settings.

so i'm not really excited by any multiplayer in TReboot 3 or whatever you want to call it

I'd be extremely excited if they fix what you mention by adding more diverse, randomized layouts and adding several more locations. Endurance is fantastic, both alone and in co-op, for highlighting TR's combat and survival mechanics. Problem is it dries up fast.

 

[onemanasylum]

I hope the next game they totally shake up the formula, Rise was a snooze fest. Reading the impressions from Xbox and PC players who played it made it sound way better then it was. If I had my time back I would not have bought it. It is not very open at all, and the side stuff and tombs were poor, and of course the story is terrible. Combat was just OK at best with weak encounters.

 

[kennyamr]

Tomb Raider is one of my favorite series but I hate the reboot versions.
Hopefully at some point they will go back to basics.
I can only dream for future less Uncharted-esque gameplay and way more intricate puzzles.

 

[KodaRuss]

I dont think I could hate Rise anymore than I did. They need to reboot this again or something.

The first game was alright but I really hated second one.

 

[7roject28]

I want to fight dinosaurs again.

 

[tuxfool]

I said what I said cuz GAF often thinks it shares the opinions of what every gamer outside of GAF is saying and then is surprised to find out that it's the complete opposite. Right now everyone is acting all surprised they're sticking with this direction and playing revisionist history that this reboot is a "failure". I'm not saying you can't criticize the quality.

Point to the person in this thread acting surprised. Or that people think this a comercial failure.

They're pretty good to ok games with dogshit characters and story.

Since its 1996 debut, the Tomb Raider franchise has evolved from pin-up lad mag material to a thought-provoking series of substance

But shit like this explains why they're so utterly blind to that fact. Nice to have would also be a proper TR game.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Eh, I mean I agree that the reboot and Rise don't have good writing or characterization, but I still found them to be fun games and enjoyed playing them. I'm also not convinced that going back to 'old Lara' is the right thing to do, considering how much of her popularity and appeal was based on being an unrealistic sex symbol. If Lara was still designed and portrayed the way she was in the older titles today, my girlfriend would've never picked up the games, and yet she enjoyed the reboot a ton. They did a good job modernizing Lara's design, even if the writing and characters fell flat, and I think the gameplay in the reboot and Rise was good, better than Uncharted even.

 

[RedAssedApe]

make sure lara doesn't look like a child next to all the npcs in the next game

 

[Arklite]

True, I just meant in terms of what matters to SE, which ultimately is sales. I am hoping for less combat and more puzzles in Shadow.

I don't really blame Rhianna for poor characterisation in ROTTR because 1) the characterisation in LAU was terrible, so it started before she got there and 2) in her exit interview she spoke on how she felt very restricted by the gameplay scenarios, as well as directions from above (which goes back to point 1). I'm hoping the next story will be better.

I'll respect an individuals work but I'm not giving her any mileage on those excuses. TR isn't anymore or less difficult of a project to write for than something like Spec Ops, or Uncharted, or even Binary Domain, each of which I felt fared better on story. Uncharted in particular has the same issue of charismatic murderer but still manages to deliver an overall better narrative.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Point to the person in this thread acting surprised. Or that people think this a comercial failure.

They're pretty good to ok games with dogshit characters and story.



But shit like this explains why they're so utterly blind to that fact. Nice to have would also be a proper TR game.

People thought this third game was gonna go in a whole new direction with a different studio. But hey, we don't how the final product will be.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

a 3rd reboot is needed

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I hope the next game they totally shake up the formula, Rise was a snooze fest. Reading the impressions from Xbox and PC players who played it made it sound way better then it was. If I had my time back I would not have bought it. It is not very open at all, and the side stuff and tombs were poor, and of course the story is terrible. Combat was just OK at best with weak encounters.

They probably won't shake up anything in a major way since Crystal Dynamics is just going to oversee another studio making the follow-up. Might see some big changes for the next trilogy.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I'll respect an individuals work but I'm not giving her any mileage on those excuses. TR isn't anymore or less difficult of a project to write for than something like Spec Ops, or Uncharted, or even Binary Domain, each of which I felt fared better on story. Uncharted in particular has the same issue of charismatic murderer but still manages to deliver an overall better narrative.

Those studios treat writing very differently to how most do. Seriously, most AAA games have rubbish writing. It's only because we've seen good examples that people think any different, but they're still the exception, not the norm.

For every spec ops and uncharted you name, I could probably name 4 AAA titles that came out that same year that had bad or mediocre writing. Considering the games that came from this studio before ROTTR (with the exception of TR2013, which I genuinely think is an okay story - it has clear motivations, antagonists, and reasonably sensible behaviour by the main characters) it's not hard to believe that the issue is less with whichever poor writer they've got for that project and more to do with how they view writing as subservient to other aspects.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

Since its 1996 debut, the Tomb Raider franchise has evolved from pin-up lad mag material to a thought-provoking series of substance

 

[Arklite]

Those studios treat writing very differently to how most do. Seriously, most AAA games have rubbish writing. It's only because we've seen good examples that people think any different, but they're still the exception, not the norm.

For every spec ops and uncharted you name, I could probably name 4 AAA titles that came out that same year that had bad writing.

I agree 100%. What I'm saying is Pratchett's work is and has been in line with the standard mediocre stuff we usually get and her excuses with TR don't hold weight for me.

Edit: on your additional points, yeah certain games promote story more than others, but I feel like TR in particular has been very focused on playing up Lara's coming of age story, so her excuses again seem evasive. I do feel the script and smaller cast was better in Rise but other problems weren't out of her hands.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I'm not sure if it is funny or sad that they think the writing or characters in the last two games is good.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

I'm not sure if it is funny or sad that they think they writing or characters in the last two games is good.

I think it's both funny and sad.

 

[Zakalwe]

I dont think I could hate Rise anymore than I did. They need to reboot this again or something.

The first game was alright but I really hated second one.

Agreed. The combat and metroidvania gameplay in the first game was enough to get me through it, and I really enjoyed actually playing it.

It's the writing and characters etc... that were absolute garbage. It's incredible how deluded the creators are about it.

The second game... I don't know why, but I just couldn't stand it. The writing and VA was even worse, but the gameplay seemed to be more of the same with decent refinement which I should have enjoyed, but at some point I just never booted it up again. I don't even remember the parts I did play, and I put a god few hours into it.

I really hope they go back to the puzzle exploration of the original and ditch the the Uncharted copy and terrible writing.

 

[Zasa]

Tomb raider is def one of those things that gaf is completely off on

Mainstream gamers really like the reboot

Indeed, thankfully Gaf doesn't have that much influence. Both games did very well critically as well. Nostalgia be damned.

These games get shat on more than The Order on here for some reason. Real Pity.

 

[Zakalwe]

Indeed, thankfully Gaf doesn't have that much influence. Both games did very well critically as well. Nostalgia be damned.

These games get shat on more than The Order on here for some reason. Real Pity.

Yeh, but that doesn't change the fact the writing and characters are complete garbage. The games are fun (the first one at least was a blast), but this idea from the creators that they're "thought provoking" and have "substance" is absurd.

Also these games get as much praise here as critique from what I've seen, writing and characters aside.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Yeh, but that doesn't change the fact the writing and characters are complete garbage. The games are fun (the first one at least was a blast), but this idea from the creators that they're "thought provoking" and have "substance" is absurd.

Also these games get as much praise here as critique from what I've seen, writing and characters aside.

Must be in the OT cuz outside of it these threads are beginning to turn into Battleborn levels of blowback.

 

[Zasa]

Yeh, but that doesn't change the fact the writing and characters are complete garbage. The games are fun (the first one at least was a blast), but this idea from the creators that they're "thought provoking" and have "substance" is absurd.

Also these games get as much praise here as critique from what I've seen, writing and characters aside.

Can't argue with you on that, I definitely wouldn't classify them as thought provoking lol. Fair enough on that critique. I loved the gameplay in Rise compared to the first, just found there were too many gunfights. Rise is definitely headed in the right direction with the addition of more legitimate tomb raiding & more exploration. Hopefully they improve on the writing as that's certainly not it's strongest time.

But this thread aside, I still rarely see the games recommended or talked about much in a positive light. Then again, I haven't been here as long!

 

[Flipyap]

I'd say that representation of Lara in marketing was really worlds apart from what Core Design conveyed about her character in the games themselves. That made a difference too, when many people played the games the title character resonated with them beyond sex appel.

And Crystal Dynamics take on the franchise is hardly better, if any better, in the narrative sense. They have been trying to humanize Lara Croft so much that it directly clashes when they try to create a game around that.

That's the thing, Crystal Dynamics' take on the narrative used to be better. They've managed to humanize Lara while simultaneously retelling the first game's story in Anniversary and they didn't have to turn her into a whiny mess while doing so. Then something went terribly wrong.

 

[Kremzeek]

co-op endurance mode is pretty fun for the first few hours, after that it gets repetitive because there are only 2 or 3 crypt layouts, plus only one setting (siberia). they should have included a lot more variations and multiple settings.

i've had tons of fun playing co-op with friends.

we would totally be down for more maps in the sequel.

 

[Zakalwe]

Can't argue with you on that, I definitely wouldn't classify them as thought provoking lol. Fair enough on that critique. I loved the gameplay in Rise compared to the first, just found there were too many gunfights. Rise is definitely headed in the right direction with the addition of more legitimate tomb raiding & more exploration. Hopefully they improve on the writing as that's certainly not it's strongest time.

But this thread aside, I still rarely see the games recommended or talked about much in a positive light. Then again, I haven't been here as long!

Honestly, it's a vocal minority. I think critiques about the writing etc.. are widespread even amongst people who love the gameplay, but a lot of the blowback is from fans of the original series who despise the change to UC clone (which to be fair, it is in many ways even if it does add to it a lot) and just /need/ to be heard.

Like XV topped a lot of our GOTY lists, got great scores, and even hit 6 in the overall GOTY vote, yet you'd think the game went back in time and killed Gandhi if you paid attention to some of the reactions surrounding it.

People who make a fuss about these things tend to be really fucking loud about it.

 

[Evilkazzzz]

I hope in the next full game they add more exotic or supernatrual things to kill.

I played the first 2016 reboot and was hugely disappointed that it's supernatural enemy were just japanese zombie men and that the animals were just regular forest animals.

I skipped Rise because it seemed like more of the same. You're killing military grunts this time, the supernatural enemy is just knights, and the big monster in this one is apparently just a bear (and even that looked like a QTE).

What happened to dinosaurs and tigers?

 

[Schopenhauerian]

...The second game... I don't know why, but I just couldn't stand it. The writing and VA was even worse...

You're definitely not alone in that view: one / two / three

The first link is from the 'Modern Lara Croft is such a dull protagonist' thread, and the other two links are from the 'Rise of the Tomb Raider 20 Yr Anniversary Edition' thread.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

The one thing I can't stand in the new tomb raiders is Lara's constant screaming. I don't know if the VO is just overacted or her voice in general is annoying asf to me.

You better not watch any women's tennis then.

 

[arcticice]

I see so much hate for the reboot. I actually like the new Lara Croft

 

[Auto-Reply]

According to who?

I literally laughed out loud when I read that sentence.

 

[SebastianM]

I'd rather they rebooted it again tbh. I had fun with 2013's effort, but this time around I tried the Ps4 trial and couldn't get past the first 20 minutes. Press X and Up to climb, press button to watch setpiece after a huge jump, stuff collapsing before you, collect treasure, yadda yadda, Yawn.

Uncharted 4 left me kind of a sour taste but I enjoyed it nonetheless because it was a closure to a story I was fond of, but I can't deal with this (IMO) really outdated style of gameplay anymore.

 

[badcrumble]

they should re-reboot tomb raider so it takes place in a cyberpunk future and lara croft battles the illuminati and also she's jc denton

 

[x-Lundz-x]

That would only be two years between releases. Probably won't see the third game until Spring 2018 at the earliest.

It was only 2.5 years or so between the first two and a different studio is making the third game so I think it's possible. Fingers crossed anyway.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

It was only 2.5 years or so between the first two and a different studio is making the third game so I think it's possible. Fingers crossed anyway.

That is why I said Spring 2018. That would be around 2.5 years. I can't see them going lower than that.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'd say that representation of Lara in marketing was really worlds apart from what Core Design conveyed about her character in the games themselves. That made a difference too, when many people played the games the title character resonated with them beyond sex appel.


And Crystal Dynamics take on the franchise is hardly better, if any better, in the narrative sense. They have been trying to humanize Lara Croft so much that it directly clashes when they try to create a game around that.

Also, the sex appeal is still pretty much there with the new Lara, something evident in the first 10 minutes of gameplay, it is just not flashy in your face like it was back then (although that was only from a very superficial look as the game actually used her differently)... but guess what? It was the '90s too .

 

[Parsnip]

Just give her a freaking personality and an engaging story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it that hard?!

That would go a long way.

 

[Neff]

According to who?

She coincided with Girl Power and that was about it. She didn't really change much.

The 'thought-provoking series of substance' part is straight up Jackanory imo.

 

[Basketball]

What? New Lara is best Lara by a country fucking mile.

 

[Harlequin]

That's the thing, Crystal Dynamics' take on the narrative used to be better. They've managed to humanize Lara while simultaneously retelling the first game's story in Anniversary and they didn't have to turn her into a whiny mess while doing so. Then something went terribly wrong.

Right, they just had to totally ruin her backstory to do that. Core had begun humanising Lara well enough with the TR4-TR6 arc and in a way that was actually somewhat subtle and nuanced, two words that seem to be missing from CD's vocabulary. Seriously, it feels like the only way Crystal know how to "humanise" Lara is to kill off her parents or to show her fall down a craggy mountain-side, then happily keep on murdering enemy hordes as if she wasn't just supposed to have broken her neck.

 

[FarFromAnyGame]

lol

not with that writing

Not with that voice acting.

 

[MattKeil]

No, she really wasn't. Interest in the series is instantly killed for me if they go back to a Lara like the old one.

Agreed. I like both reboot games a lot and prefer them infinitely to the original.

I do like the Crystal Dynamics Legend/Anniversary/Underworld reboot series, though. Just not as much as the current one.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

😂😂😂

 

[IncognitoPanda]

The one thing I can't stand in the new tomb raiders is Lara's constant screaming. I don't know if the VO is just overacted or her voice in general is annoying asf to me.

THANK YOU! Sometimes I wondered if there was something wrong with me, since seemingly everyone praised the VA. It's so forced, overdone and even a bit sexualized, imo. The opposite of what the reboot aimed for.