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New Tomb Raider interview w/ Meagan Marie - future of the franchise

UrbanRats

Member
Since its 1996 debut, the Tomb Raider franchise has evolved from pin-up lad mag material to a thought-provoking series of substance
Give me a fucking break.

Anyway, tried playing Rise, but said fuck it an uninstalled it after playing like 25% of it.
I kind of tolerated the Reboot, but i really don't like what the series has become.

Then again, has i said multiple times, the series had been a weird mixture of bad and good ideas ever since tomb Raider 2 decided that Venice was a cool location for Tomb Raiding.
 

Symphonia

Banned
What? New Lara is best Lara by a country fucking mile.
I 100% agree with this statement. I do love the old Tomb Raider games, don't get me wrong, but it got too much into fantasy/sci-fi what with mummies and parallel dimensions. The reboot grounded it and is all the better for it.
 
One thing I would like to emphasize, with respect to those of us (see the links collected within this post, for more detail) who have objected to the way Crystal Dynamics has characterized Lara (when they first took over from 2006-2008, and then again from 2013-2016).

We are not at all – not in the least bit – expressing a preference for the crass sexualization of the character that occurred from 1996-2008, or even the (obviously less crass) conventional attractiveness of the character from 2013-2016. As Cara Ellison puts it:
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=7153429&postcount=3
6. Make her older... Lara's not young any more. Why are we treating her like she is? For some dumb idea of female attractiveness? **** that ****. Lara's probably had spikes through every part of her body and I bet she has metal pins holding her limbs together. She's sturdier than Ripley. You know who I think is a hero? A woman who doesn't care who thinks she is ****able. She lives in the dark. Who's gonna look at her? A mummy?

As Lime has noted:
From a purely visual perspective, I completely agree that the re-imaginary was a much better and much more believable design that actually seemed realistic to various degrees. Before this visual reboot, it was pretty evident that Eidos back in the day took the character of Lara Croft and used her as a means to market the games with cheap titillation in order to appeal to straight boys / men with disposable income. (Sidenote: the character was originally supposed to be South-American, but Eidos decided against it and made her a White Brit instead). Yet, as evidenced in many different testimonies by girls and women (such as this research article, or Latoya Peterson & her documentary series on Girl Gamers), Lara Croft was an important character to them in their childhood despite of the obvious sexual objectification in marketing (this is not me condoning the sexual objectification, just nuancing how players use games to their own end)...

See also:
Messofanego had a great thread a while back (Take Rhianna Pratchett off and bring in Cara Ellison). Unfortunate that CD quite clearly did not take Cara Ellison's advice.
 
damn, i read the title like that when i saw it on the list of thread


New Tomb Raider interview w/ Mega Man - future of the franchise

and i just read the end so it just became


Mega Man - future of the franchise

now i'm sad (and stupid for not reading correctly)
 

_Rob_

Member
So still no sign of going back to Anniversary style controls with actual tombs to raid...? Shame, whether it's an official Tomb Raider game or not, I hope to see something like that at some point in the near future.
 

evolve9

Member
Give me a fucking break.

Anyway, tried playing Rise, but said fuck it an uninstalled it after playing like 25% of it.
I kind of tolerated the Reboot, but i really don't like what the series has become.

Then again, has i said multiple times, the series had been a weird mixture of bad and good ideas ever since tomb Raider 2 decided that Venice was a cool location for Tomb Raiding

But that's like one of the best levels in TR2. It also has this fantastic tune: https://youtu.be/VWsICxqgt5w

On a side note, there's a chronic lack of classical-like tunes accompanying shootouts in games, jumping around Venice and mowing down waves of baddies while that is playing in the background is the definition of classy awesomeness, I wish more games tried to replicate that.
 
Jesus H Christ, don't get me started on the new Lara. Look, there's no denying the original Lara's portrayal in the media is problematic and probably wouldn't fly today but there's also no denying that the character, in all her sexual provocation, opened doors to female leads. It's all very well for us to look back now and go "THIS IS SEXIST!!!!!!" but Lara was absolutely revolutionary to the gaming world.

Setting that aside, I have no problems with needing to move on from her rather 2D portrayal (though it's a shame she was taken out of CORE's hands quite so soon as they really did start giving the character more depth just as soon as they lost their way with AOD and I'd have killed to see where they'd have taken her even further). I don't even necessarily have a problem with making her younger, even though the whole prequel, 'Lara Begins', Katniss Everdeen plot and style is painfully cliché. But the handling of it is so, so... bland.

She's a fucking bore. She has no personality. No attitude. She runs around being pious, 'emotional because of XTREME SITUAYSHUNZ' and reciting self-help mantras any time she so much as needs to jump. "I can dew this". Yes, I know you can, you awful girl and after two adventures, you should bloody know you can do it too. She is in no way more developed by the end of ROTTR than she was at the end of TR13. There is literally nothing to the character. Oh sure she's not being sexually provocative in her portrayal but any kind of discernible characteristics have been sanded away. Crystal even repeated their own mistake by making Lara's endeavours wholly dependent on her father's career (FOR THE SECOND TIME - and it wasn't popular the first time they did) and in doing so completely remove Lara's agency and one of original Lara's strongest features - her adventurous lifestyle coming from within her. CORE's Lara wasn't motivated by personal loss or parental issues, she forged her own lane in life and turned her back on aristocracy.

Setting aside all of that, the games themselves are horribly bland, lacking any kind of vivid style or colour, or ingenuous level design. The latter being very much CORE's forté. But Crystal had a great history in that kind of stuff as well as great storytelling with the Legacy of Kain games so I'm not sure what happened.
 

Poona

Member
What? New Lara is best Lara by a country fucking mile.

No way. Keeley Hawes is so much better than Camilla Luddington.

Though in the end I just may settle for a decent British voice actress (although Angeline Jolie isn't British and she was able to do well with the Tomb Raider movies).
 

Parsnip

Member
The one thing I can't stand in the new tomb raiders is Lara's constant screaming. I don't know if the VO is just overacted or her voice in general is annoying asf to me.
If you ever happen to see Luddington in one of her live action roles you'll probably find the answer to be 'she's just kind of a poor actress'.



Bring back Keeley Hawes.
 
"a thought-provoking series of substance"
Yeah, I take serious issue with that.

The new games have clearly wanted to, somewhere along the line tackle something a bit more meaty, but no, the games are basically devoid of that and become shooting galleries where even Lara doesn't seem to evolve much / be the focus in the latter halves of both games, even more so in the second game.
idk, seems like it's provokes *some* thoughts at least
 

Akai__

Member
Was co-op endurance mode any good?

It is fun for the like 1st 5 matches, if you also do some of the challenges, but afterwards it just becomes one of those "played it and have seen it all" modes. There is no greater goal and surviving can be literally done by just staying in one base camping and waiting for enemies and animals to come to you.

Feel like they didn't really think it through.
 

NeoRaider

Member
The last two games have been phenomenal. I think it'd be a mistake to move away from them

No one is moving away from them i actually think that we can expect few more games in next few years. They are not crazy to reboot franchise again. TR 2013 is best selling and most successful TR game, it sold more than 10 million copies.

GP and majority of TR fans really liked both games, and they are received very well. Why would they reboot everything again?? It would take years to do that. Are these games perfect? Sure they are not, but no game is. They are very rare (especially for PC players) in era of FPS and MP games and they are here to stay.

I am really excited to see what Eidos Montreal has to offer and what will they do with Shadow of the Tomb Raider. It would be cool if they improve few things but overall i think that fans of previous two games will be happy.
 
No one is moving away from them i actually think that we can expect few more games in next few years. They are not crazy to reboot franchise again. TR 2013 is best selling and most successful TR game, it sold more than 10 million copies.
You seem to be very ignorant when it comes to Tomb Raider in that you're taking a bias viewpoint for the newer ones. Firstly, you are completely wrong on the numbers, 2013 did not sell 10m copies. It sold, rounded to the nearest 7th figure, 8m copies worldwide across four platforms over five years.

Tomb Raider II, my favourite game ever, has sold over 8m copies since its original 1997 release including Steam, GOG, etc. Tomb Raider II is the best selling Tomb Raider game still and it only released on two platforms (PS, PC) as opposed to five.

Also you're forgetting that there are millions of more people all over the world who play games nowadays compared to back in 1997 when it was substantially less. If you weren't so bias you would be comparing the ratio of sales figures, rather than the raw numbers, since ratios are more accurate for comparisons. If Tomb Raider II had released today, it would sell more copies purely on the basis that there are physically more customers who will be able to buy the game.

GP and majority of TR fans really liked both games, and they are received very well.
Actually, the reboot has been heavily criticised outside of SJWs and feminists praising the game for simply having a female lead. Reboot Lara is imo, much uglier and less feminine than the classic. Tomb Raider was a household name in the 90s, alot of people loved Lara, and as I said, she became a brand of her own and was featured in a wide range of consumables like board games, clothes, accessories, drinks, etc etc etc. Reboot has had no meaningful impact outside of feminist masturbation.

I am really excited to see what Eidos Montreal has to offer and what will they do with Shadow of the Tomb Raider. It would be cool if they improve few things but overall i think that fans of previous two games will be happy.
I consider myself a fan of the last two games, despite hating them to the point where I cringe just looking at them, because I still love Tomb Raider outside of the video games themselves. Having said that, if this third game is anything like the last two, it won't go down so well.
 
Since its 1996 debut, the Tomb Raider franchise has evolved from pin-up lad mag material to a thought-provoking series of substance

laughing-gifs-foolish-human.gif


The last two TR games have had some of the absolute worst story telling, character building and writing I have seen in recent video games. I actually prefer the pin up lad mag era. At least they were honest and up front about what they were making.
 

NeoRaider

Member
You seem to be very ignorant when it comes to Tomb Raider in that you're taking a bias viewpoint for the newer ones. Firstly, you are completely wrong on the numbers, 2013 did not sell 10m copies. It sold, rounded to the nearest 7th figure, 8m copies worldwide across four platforms over five years.

Only thing you had to do is Google "Tomb Raider Sales'...

iHzDgWM.png


That's the first thing you will see. This news is from April 6th 2015! So almost 2 years ago.
Since then only on Steam Tomb Raider reboot sold more than 1.5m copies. And i don't even want to add PS4/XB1/PS3/XB sales in last two years. You do the math...

And i don't really care about the rest of your post because... opinions. I read similar thing so many times from fans of classic TR games. But just wanted to prove you wrong real quick.
 

Garlador

Member
I love the reboots. I only wish Lara wasn't so grim and serious. There can be a healthy balance between grounding the games and her original jubilant passion for treasure hunting.

But by no means is she awful in the reboots. It's not like the gave her the Other M treatment or anything.
 
Only thing you had to do is Google "Tomb Raider Sales'...

iHzDgWM.png


That's the first thing you will see. This news is from April 6th 2015! So almost 2 years ago.
Since then only on Steam Tomb Raider reboot sold more than 1.5m copies. And i don't even want to add PS4/XB1/PS3/XB sales in last two years. You do the math...

Square Enix fudging the numbers to make Reboot look better though. They combined different versions released in different times on different platforms, but only for Reboot, while the other games they used the first release sales only and exclude any sales from current PC physical, Steam, other digital PC fronts and PSN.
 

NeoRaider

Member
Square Enix fudging the numbers to make Reboot look better though. They combined different versions released in different times on different platforms, but only for Reboot, while the other games they used the first release sales only and exclude any sales from current PC physical, Steam, other digital PC fronts and PSN.

Sorry but what??
This doesn't make any sense. Developers do this all the time when new consoles are released. You sound salty for some reason.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Lol at ppl writing: "reboot again" and "i want old Lara back" after success and praise both reboot and ROTTR got.

That's because, while the gameplay might be enjoyable for many, the writing, characters, VA, story are all garbage levels of abysmal.

Tomb Raider also didn't need to become a UC clone style third person shooter. It could have carved its own niche instead of being a generic success. Yes, plenty of people liked the game, but this kind of generic design will always have mass appeal.

This isn't people pining for the problematic character of old, this is people wanting TR to be its own thing once again.
 

Flipyap

Member
Right, they just had to totally ruin her backstory to do that. Core had begun humanising Lara well enough with the TR4-TR6 arc and in a way that was actually somewhat subtle and nuanced, two words that seem to be missing from CD's vocabulary. Seriously, it feels like the only way Crystal know how to "humanise" Lara is to kill off her parents or to show her fall down a craggy mountain-side, then happily keep on murdering enemy hordes as if she wasn't just supposed to have broken her neck.
They didn't totally ruin anything. They built on something that was barely even there in the first place.
Having Lara's parents inspire and motivate her is a better use of her background than using them as faceless money bags. Anniversary only kept that subplot (of making her father a somewhat interesting person) to provide some context to what you're doing, everything else was handled using existing characters from the original.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Again personal opinion.
I disagree and i think that you are over-exaggerating.

I'm really not, even among critics who gave the game high scores and the reboot fans this is a very popular opinion.

You're in big denial if you think the game isn't extremely flawed in this regard.
 
Only thing you had to do is Google "Tomb Raider Sales'...

iHzDgWM.png


That's the first thing you will see. This news is from April 2015! So almost 2 years ago.
Since then only on Steam Tomb Raider reboot sold more than 1.5m copies. And i don't even want to add PS4/XB1/PS3/XB sales in last two years. You do the math...

Google search results aren't a source of information, so I'll do the maths instead for you, since you don't want to spend time actually researching facts.

Tomb Raider II
This article is from 2006, 10 years ago, GameState got access to the sales data for the best selling games up to that point. Tomb Raider II was included within the top 20.
See that? 8 million copies sold up to 2006 on just the PS1. This does not include Steam, GOG and all of the retail PC sales. But since I know you're bias, I'll do the maths for you again.
As of today, according to Steamspy, Tomb Raider II has sold roughly 721,580 copies for all of the Steam sales.

As for GOG, now they don't share public data for sales, but since TRII has been on sale on that website at least one year longer than on Steam, it is safe to assume it sold around the same amount since it always sells crazy over there and is one of the oldest games to be sold on that website. So for parity, and to be kind to you, I will say GOG sold around 500,000 copies.

As for the retail (physical) PC copies as of 14th January this year (2017), it has sold a total of 2.29m copies. I know that this website isn't entirely accurate either, so I'll trim the sales down to just 2m copies.
(it seems like the link is ***'d out, so just Google VGc.)

So far that is 10m copies sold, not including PSN sales of TRII and the sales of the Golden Mask re-release, which have probably sold hundreds of thousands of copies alone.

So altogether, that is at the very least 10.5+m copies sold as of today.

Tomb Raider 2013
I'll start by linking this copy-paste article many sites used, you included. It is the "8.5m copies sold including the Definitive Edition", which is already less than 10.5. However, to be fair to your bias, I'll say articles like this aren't trustworthy because they all have no source.

It is also interesting to note that in 2013, the game had SHIPPED and not SOLD 3.4m copies.

So, for the sales themselves.

Steamspy reports 4.5m copies sold roughly, and I say roughly, as numbers aren't entirely accurate.
Let's look at the sales for the PS3, 360, PS4 and X1 (including the Definitive Edition):
Xbox 360 : 1.89m
PS3 : 2.42m
PS4 : 1.40m
X1 : 0.62m
Remember, this website isn't entirely accurate, so like with TRII, I'll trim the sales down and round them.
(it seems like the links are ***'d out, so just Google VGc.)

1.89m > 1.8
2.42 > 2.4
1.40 > 1.4
0.62 > 0.5
1.8 + 2.4 + 1.4 + 0.5 = 6.1 + 4.5 = 10.6.
Now, before you start typing your reply, that's a cap of 10.6m.
Tomb Raider II sold at least 10.5m, not including accurate sales from GOG, PSN and its Golden Mask re-releases (they've all probably sold well over 2m combined considering how much they are played and sold).

So, the final analysis:
Tomb Raider 2013
Maximum of 10.6m if we were to trust VGc.
Tomb Raider II
Minimum of 10.5m if were to trust VGc and not include PSN, GOG and GM re-release sales.

And this is even considering that I rounded the sales of TRII down even more than the sales of 2013.
Also, posting a Gamespot or Eurogamer article, without them sourcing info themselves, cannot be wholesomely trusted, at least with sites like Steamspy we have some idea.

But as I've said, more people these days play games moreso than people did in 1997. So ratio is important here, we should compare the total amount of people who owned a PS1 and PC then the sales of TR2 for PS1 and PC.
Then do the same for TR 2013 but with PS3, 360, PS4, X1 and PC. If you ever took the time to do this maths your fractions will be simplified down and see that TRII without a doubt has a higher proportion of sales to owners.

And finally, seems NeoGAF doesn't like VGc (won't say its full name or post images from it), but you should know what it is if ya Google it.
 

Harlequin

Member
They didn't totally ruin anything. They built on something that was barely even there in the first place.
Having Lara's parents inspire and motivate her is a better use of her background than using them as faceless money bags. Anniversary only kept that subplot (of making her father a somewhat interesting person) to provide some context to what you're doing, everything else was handled using existing characters from the original.

Perhaps you should actually educate yourself on Core Lara's characterisation and backstory before criticising it.

Core Lara was born into a very traditional aristocratic family in the late 60s. She was raised to be a "proper lady", sent to boarding school, later to a Swiss finishing school (which is where European aristocracy used to send their daughters to learn how to be a good high society wife and mother, hostess, etc.) and her parents arranged her engagement with some wealthy aristocrat. When she crashed in the Himalayas and realised that she wanted to live the life of an adventurer, her parents were outraged and disowned her but Lara stayed true to herself. One of her aunts was rather more understanding of her situation and gave her the mansion she ended up living in but her relationship with her parents (who are still alive throughout all of the events that take place in Core's timeline) remained icy and she finances her trips by writing travel guides.

LAU Lara was born into a family of aristocratic archaeologists who, from an early age, encouraged her to pursue archaeology herself, then died/went missing when she was still a kid or a teenager and left her their considerable fortune. Now her sole motivator is to find out what happened to her parents.

In what world is the LAU backstory better than Core's backstory? Core Lara faced incredible societal and parental pressure and defied it to do what she wanted to do and be who she wanted to be whereas LAU Lara dutifully followed in her parents' footsteps and arranged her entire life around finding out what happened to them. Not only does the LAU version make for a less interesting character, it's also an incredibly cheesy and generic action hero background that contradicts the entire point of Lara's original bio which skillfully established her as an independent thinker, a rebel and a loner with little regard for other people's opinions, societal norms, standing or wealth. It also feels far more original and nuanced, where LAU's backstory feels like overly dramatic, Americanised Hollywood BS.
 
They probably won't shake up anything in a major way since Crystal Dynamics is just going to oversee another studio making the follow-up. Might see some big changes for the next trilogy.

If that's the case it will be the last TR game I buy.

Again personal opinion.
I disagree and i think that you are over-exaggerating.

I'm pretty sure the guy called Neo-Raider is objective and not biased..... IMP the gameplay was subpar too, awful encounters, with small numbers of enemies. They took the worst side stuff possible and crammed it in the game making it a snoozefest.
 

Harlequin

Member
There's also this biography, written by Core Design back then, which goes deeper into Lara's character more than the reboots ever touched on.

Yeah, Core changed her bio slightly with the release of TR4 to include her training with Von Croy. Personally, I prefer the TR1-3 version without Von Croy but the TR4 version is still largely preferable to anything Crystal have done with the character.
 
Sorry but what??
This doesn't make any sense. Developers do this all the time when new consoles are released. You sound salty for some reason.

It makes clear sense, SE are making reboot sales look better by including sale types it doesn't for other games.

It's salty you not wanting to acknowledge this because it means reboot doesn't get as favourable a comparison to other games.
 

Arklite

Member
No. The best recent TR game is Lara Croft GO. No personality or story needed.

It's still so interesting to me that two Lara's coexist currently. Classic Lara gets the smaller mobile and co-op arcade games where her famous style is instantly recognizable/marketable while CD build on new Lara.
 
After TR2013 and ROTTR, Lara's next evolution should obviously be that she becomes a trained and hired killer that kills her enemies in way similar to the Punisher. Extreme prejudice and slaughter.

She also finds one artifact that immediately is lost down a fault in the ground.
 

tuxfool

Banned
After TR2013 and ROTTR, Lara's next evolution should obviously be that she becomes a trained and hired killer that kills her enemies in way similar to the Punisher. Extreme prejudice and slaughter.

She also finds one artifact that immediately is lost down a fault in the ground.

That would be great.

Dump Camilla Luddington though, she definitely can't pull it off. Or maybe make her a voiceless protagonist, just breathe heavily every time she kills somebody.
 
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