SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
1. The Incredibles
2. Unbreakable
3. Batman Begins
4. Spider-Man 2
5. V for Vendetta
2. Unbreakable
3. Batman Begins
4. Spider-Man 2
5. V for Vendetta
Wait, is this over already? I thought it was going to last for like a month before closing.
I think you could make the argument that in 3, Neo becomes some sort of superhero? Maybe. But I can't see anyone actually voting to put Matrix Revolutions on a list of the 10 best superhero films ever made, either, so it's kinda moot.
The problem is that at some point, because of the inherent nature of almost all superhero stories being sci-fi stories at their core, once you go looking in other sci-fi stories for superhero signifiers, you can (and will) find them a lot of the time. That doesn't necessarily make those sci-fi stories superhero tales.
I don't think The Matrix is a superhero movie, or that Neo is a superhero. Save for the last shot of the film, the aesthetic the Wachowskis seem to be going for more than anything is kung-fu/anime-styled action, not superheroics.
Neo is literally likened to Superman in Reloaded.
Reloaded isn't The Matrix. And even in Reloaded, he's still not actually superpowered. He's just a dude. He doesn't develop any sort of extranormal powerset until Revolutions.
It's a sci-fi movie. It's not a superhero film.
Anyway, this feels pointless.
My list is exactly the same as it was the last time we did this. Logan would have been included, but since it's ineligible, the list doesn't change:
I knocked The Incredibles off my original list because it's an incredibly sexist Dad movie, and Spider-Man 2 went away because I don't like that movie's Doc Ock anymore.
I don't see anyone listing straight to video stuff. Are they not allowed?
I assume you are talking about some of the DC animated features. I don't see how they wouldn't be allowed if Mask of the Phantasm is allowed.
(Most of the DTV shit is trash, though)
I wouldn't vote for any of it. Some of them are decent but not top tier to me. However, I can't think of what else Blasian Persuasion could have been referring to unless they really liked Man Thing.
The Killing Joke got a theatrical release, so that is for sure safe to include. Any biters?
Where would you have slotted it in?
I mean, I addressed it pretty clearly a couple days ago: The problem is that at some point, because of the inherent nature of almost all superhero stories being sci-fi stories at their core, once you go looking in other sci-fi stories for superhero signifiers, you can (and will) find them a lot of the time. That doesn't necessarily make those sci-fi stories superhero tales.
The Matrix isn't a superhero movie. None of them are.
Where would you have slotted it in?
(Funny that 2 years ago I was assuming BvS would probably at least make a run at the top 10 by the time we did this again. Whooooops)
a fictional hero having extraordinary or superhuman powers; also : an exceptionally skillful or successful person
In modern popular fiction, a superhero (sometimes rendered super-hero or super hero) is a type of costumed heroic character who possesses supernatural or superhuman powers and who is dedicated to fighting crime, protecting the public, and usually battling supervillains.
Can we vote for DC animated super hero movies like The flashpoint paradox, Superman Batman: Apocalypse and others?
But whatever
Yes. I put Batman: Mask of the Phantasm on my list. The direct-to-video films are fair game.
Also: It's funny that the #10 on a lot of these lists is only there because Logan isn't being counted and forcing everything else one spot down.
Eh, what?
All right, the predictable stuff first. The film contains just as much reheated sexism as you might expect. It starts with a flashback to our heroes' heyday, which appears to be the 1970s: Frozone sneers nonchalantly that the only thing female superheroes are good for is sex, and Elastigirl, looking rather like that woman from The Avengers, spouts the ”liberated woman" cod-feminism that was popular at the time: ”Get married, me? Sit at home and let the men save the world? Are you serious?" This would in most contexts, of course, be extremely heartening, but in this case is a not-so-subtle way of letting us know that she will be married by the end of the reel. She is: she steals a bad guy right out from under Mr Incredible's nose, putting it out of joint in the process, and after a bit of the hostile argy-bargy that passes for ”flirting" in Hollywood they get married the same day. (Yeah, well, it's a cartoon.)
Fast forwards twenty or so years and their married life is just as joyless as you would expect, given that Incredible works outside the home while Elastigirl does not. No explanation is given for this complete U-turn on her previous position. Incredible is your archetypal selfish male breadwinner, believing that the fact he works an eight-hour shift outside the home gives him the inalienable right to ignore his family: he hides in his study, goes ”bowling" with Frozone in the evenings, and reads the paper at teatime while Elastigirl does all the childcare and housework. In fact, however, he is not bowling: he and Frozone are secretly (and illegally) saving people from burning buildings, so he has lied to his wife and is in distinct danger of arrest or, possibly, death. The possibility that he will be killed and leave his family in dire poverty is at no point broached (although at the end of the film he attempts to ban Elastigirl from fighting in the final battle, telling her ”I'm not strong enough to lose you again" – but she and the kids are strong enough to lose him, are they?).
We are expected to believe that exile from superherodom is for him a wound that can never be healed; if that's the case, why is the former Elastigirl coping so well? Because housewifery is ”natural" for women? Or, more likely, because patriarchy has made it the standard for women to do twice the work of men for half the reward? Elastigirl doesn't go bowling in the evenings; she doesn't do anything. There is no point in the entire film where she is shown enjoying herself; she hasn't got a single friend, with the exception of Edna Mode (er, some friend). When Edna says ”Men of Bob's age are unstable, prone to weakness", she's got it in one. Incredible's self-control is nonexistent: while Elastigirl works hard to look after the kids and maintain their anonymity, Incredible is fired after throwing his boss through a wall in a fit of pique. He is too scared to tell his wife this, pretending instead that he has been sent on a sabbatical: the film begins to bear a bizarre resemblance to True Lies, or even The Full Monty.
Fortunately, the sex symbol Mirage pops up right on cue to offer Incredible a job killing rogue robots on a fancy tropical island. At this point, ridiculously, his family life improves enormously: he is happy! He acts decorously! He feeds the baby, talks to the kids and pinches his wife's bum! The message at this point appears to be that the secret to happy family life is for men to get more fulfilling jobs. There is only one huge hole in this hypothesis, which is that men know damn well that fulfilling jobs would make their lives better, and so do women; if you went up to women in the street and offered them a highly-paid job on a beautiful tropical island you would have to be a superhero yourself just to cope with the number of applications. Everyone would like a glamorous high-flying job. The problem is getting one.
This ludicrous and impractical message (that the nuclear family is the best of all possible worlds, provided the dad is extremely rich) would seem silly enough on its own, but Bird's comments take it to another level of inanity. The statement ‘moms have to stretch in 100 different ways each day' is of course often correct; the problem is that Bird seems to view this an as exemplary situation rather than an injustice to be rectified by forcing men to shoulder a greater share of childcare and housework. He's not even content to restrict the most sexist lines to the male characters, either: it is Violet who says ominously (and quite seriously!) ”Mom and Dad's lives could be in danger... or, worse still, their marriage." Pathetic.
At the end of the film, in the most mean-spirited and hypocritical scene of the lot, Violet is shown at an athletics meet, having cast off her black Goth jeans and donned a pink dress and a bow in her hair. The object of her affections approaches her with a puzzled expression: ”You're Violet, right? You look... different." ”You like different?" Violet asks anxiously. ”Sure... different is good," he smug stud replies, at precisely the moment Violet has started to look just like everyone else.
The Incredibles is Mr. Incredible's story. The first half of the film is told almost totally from his perspective, and it is his crisis that propels the film forward. Elastigirl, you see, has adapted perfectly to her role as housewife and mother. As the film begins, we hear her say, "Settle down? No way! Leave the saving of the world to the men? I don't think so." But then she is tamed by marriage. She even becomes "Mrs. Incredible", not only in the advertisements (because of rights issues with Elasti-Girl), but also for the film proper - it's the Incredibles, after all, not the Elastics.
And while Elastigirl is busy trying to hold the family together, Mr. Incredible reads at the dinner table, doesn't listen to her, doesn't take his kids's problems seriously, locks himself in his own room to relive the past, and sneaks out with Frozone to play Hero, something which has caused the family to relocate and get new identities at least once and probably more than once. Has Elastigirl ever thought about a divorce? Or, if Incredible can't hold a job, has anyone thought about making her the breadwinner? Doesn't seem so. And while Incredible still has Frozone to rely on, we never see or hear from a friend she may have and go out with. Elastigirl is simply mother and wife.
I am not sure how much criticism to bring to bear for the traditional household the film represents because I feel that was part of the whole idea: Imagine the stereotypical suburban family, only with superpowers. Still, it is the traditional household we see, and the respective powers are also traditional: the men get the action powers (strength, speed, and Mr. Incredible seems pretty invulnerable). Elastigirl's powers were chosen specifically because as mother and housewife, she is used to juggling many different things, and Violet has the passive powers of Sue Storm (invisibility and static force fields). Violet needs to learn to be more confident, of course; her brother Dash has no such problem.
Frozone is the only black character we see. Voiced by Samuel L. Jackson, he is pretty much Samuel L. Jackson in a spandex suit. He also has a fairly headstrong girlfriend / wife who I assume was intended by the filmmakers to be black, since they portray her using a stereotype often associated with black women: when the city is being attacked by a giant robot, she is arguing with Frozone about the dinner they had planned for the night - and not telling him where she put his suit, even when he calls her, "woman!" I find this specific scene tiresome, to be honest.
And of course, this isn't to say men shouldn't be portrayed like Mr. Incredible- I think it was an honest way of examining that problem and its potential resolution. But I think the core of the portrayal is really this question of, ”What issues does society today find acceptable for men and women to have, are a full range of possibilities for each gender represented and shown?" It would still seem as if we're not to the point where women can also have these qualms as to raising their family v. pursuing their interests and career, without being consequently demonized for it. In fact, the concept was almost so foreign to ElastiGirl that she didn't realize until someone else pointed it out to her- and in spite of fairly blatant evidence- that Mr. Incredible's issue was a struggle of home/family life v. personal fulfillment, rather than what she quickly suspected, which was that he was cheating on her. (hm.)
Same thing goes for the children; the struggles in themselves are fine, I just think it's very telling that you don't often see a young girl's main issues revolving around ”wanting to be the fastest runner"- there's always something in there about boys. And rarely is a young boy's (I think Dash is intended to be 11 or so?) main concern portrayed to be about confidence or girls. It's expected that boys will have/should have no issue being confident, and being confident with girls, an assumption that I think often has the potential to damage young boys whom, indeed, face these same problems and are basically told by society they can't possibly have confidence issues, because they're boys. And girls are too often almost coerced into being told all their issues are a matter of not having enough confidence, even if their issues might be more complex than that- because it is an expected issues for all girls to have.
And finally I do have some issues with the way the movie drives home the ideal family as being the nuclear family with parents that stay together. It would be nice, I think, if more kids' movies showed parents having issues and maybe not getting back together as not necessarily being... the end of the world. At any rate, I really disliked Violet's line to Dash of, ”Mom and Dad's lives could be in danger... or, worse still, their marriage." Har har, marriage being more important than your parents staying alive!
They gotta go in an order. Logan isn't eligible this year. Dredd isn't a superhero.
I really don't want to sound like a dick but why Deadpool is considered as a superhero and Dredd isn't. Isn't Deadpool more of an anti-hero. Actions of Judge Dredd are much more heroic than Deadpool tbh.