GiantEnemyGoomba
Member
You're free to say whatever the hell you want, but if that speech infringes on the rights of others then there's consequences. Pretty straightforward.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Germany plans to fine social media sites that do not remove reported hate speech
- Thread starter Xando
- Start date
- Status
I think its fine that its illegal to threat the live of other people, or do you disagree?
Sinfamy
Member
That's fine in theory, but often many take them being offended as a violation of their rights.
The goal is to find where the line is drawn.
Of course threats should be illegal, but that's not what I was quoting you for.
No right is absolute in any society. You give up part of your rights for the benefit of living in a community, that's what a society is.
The system of the Federal Republic of Germany seems to hold your right to your dignity as a human being at a relatively higher importance than most other democratic countries. It doesn't mean that your right to say whatever you want in public isn't important, but I am not aware of any society where that right is absolute.
For example I've heard you are not allowed to maliciously shout "fire" inside a theater in the US.
It is entirely valid to discuss, which of your rights a society should consider most important. And by extant which oft them would be most dangerous to lose.
But I don't think it is right to just assume that freedom of speech is the most important, because it ostensibly doesn't work anymore if it isn't absolute.
Frankfurter
Member
I'm always very cautious when it comes to freedom of speech, although I do think Germany has done pretty well in this regard.
But this really isn't about free speech. It's about making Facebook, Twitter etc. responsible for not deleting certain posts that they were made aware of. 50 million fines also sound like even facebook will care.
But this really isn't about free speech. It's about making Facebook, Twitter etc. responsible for not deleting certain posts that they were made aware of. 50 million fines also sound like even facebook will care.
But thats what this law is aimed for.
Muffin1611
Banned
Well, it's certainly not so easy to get sentenced for it.
But if you were for example at a protest and would scream things like "Foreigners out!" in presence of the police, you'd probably have to leave the protest or go to the police station.
At least I remember reading some such cases in recent times.
Sinfamy
Member
From the Wikipedia:
assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioned group
Sounds pretty vague.
The definition for hatespeech in germany is literally in the OP
Muffin1611
Banned
The law and the judges. Worked pretty well in the last decades in Germany at least.
You don't have to, German judges do. Things like denying the Holocaust or writing articles about how all Roma just love to steal for example.
Kill Your Masters
Member
American free hate speech got Trump elected. Like with american health care, free speech from the US should be avoided in other countries. It should be very obvious after last year.
I am fine with us having laws for hate speech online. (as they exist already for other areas). Keeps populists from a power grab.
I am fine with us having laws for hate speech online. (as they exist already for other areas). Keeps populists from a power grab.
Is this some sort of sarcasm? It's honestly hard to tell.
Sigh. While hate speak is visible it's also the least impactful part of racism and heavy handed management also gives the greatest possible collateral damage. Not only that punitive measures tend to be less successful than encouraging ones.
I think countries who actually want to tackle these problem need to promote economic incentives to hiring non-whites and other vulnerable groups and those who improve diversity. Minorities don't need protection from mean words, they need power to stand on their own, a power that has essentially been stolen over hundreds of years of racial bias.
I think countries who actually want to tackle these problem need to promote economic incentives to hiring non-whites and other vulnerable groups and those who improve diversity. Minorities don't need protection from mean words, they need power to stand on their own, a power that has essentially been stolen over hundreds of years of racial bias.
I know the definition. I wanted to know who determines it.
Has there been evidence to suggest this has reduced instances of hate crimes and discrimination?
I live in germany and I followed this discussion close for the last two years. Of course, I can not expect people from all around the world not to be as much in the material as germans are. But you can trust me, this is not about putting people in jails because they say "Muslims are dirt!" This is mostly about the fact that Facebook and Twitter refuse to remove for example death threats and that that the politic wants them to move faster.
Otherwise you can read the article, its even stated there, that this is about removing stuff.
Regginator
Member
Perfect. I hope the Netherlands follow suit. Some stuff I read on Facebook by primarily PVV/Wilders voters fucking boggles the mind. Most of the time they think anonymity on the internet protects them, and that they can spew whatever bullshit they want.
Muffin1611
Banned
Currently searching for studies and the like, couldn't find anything on the topic yet.
If anyone finds statistics for it before me, feel free to post it.
entremet
Member
Populism is a bad thing now?
If you post hate speech on facebook you get prosecuted for it, that's nothing new. The only thing this new law does is force facebook to delete these illegal posts (which they haven't done) or get fined for it.
Just like any other media has to comply with it
When has populism been a good thing?
shaowebb
Member
GOOD. Tired of all the hate speech folks. People are people. We should learn to embrace each others differences instead of just shitting at each other online and parroting anger in a pressure cooker till folks blow apart in real life with extremist actions and shit like we're seeing now.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Espousing Nazi ideology IS an encitement to violence. Happy to help.
Kill Your Masters
Member
The type of right wing populism that is trending now is terrible and brings nothing but divide and the poorest will suffer even more.
Cool, so when journalists are locked up for Turkey for criticising the government, or agreeing with those who attempted a coup, it means Turkey has freedom of speech? Just that the consequences of that freedom is incarceration.
What a ridiculous stance to take.
Red Arremer
Member
While the second sentence isn't wrong, the first one is. Hate speech certainly is not the least impactful part of racism. Hate speech is one of the major contributors to establishing an environment in which bigotry is acceptable and normalized. It dehumanizes the targeted minorities and makes it easier to excuse other discrimination.
For instance, if "gas all the Jews" was a commonly used phrase, do you really think that wouldn't have a societal impact on how the majority looks at Jews and their oppression?
Hate speech isn't some dumbo saying "Olives on pizza are gay" or even using racial slurs on Twitter, this is indeed about things like threats, particularly against minorities but also on a personal level.
Obviously supporting and empowering minorities is an important thing, but nothing says we can't and shouldn't also address hate speech.
CadetMahoney
Member
Why not do this for all internet activities occuring in Germnay, why only Facebook. Some random forum/reddit/4chan/youtube comment originating in Germany, they should be able to go after the server/host.
eek, unfortunate wording. English isnt my primary language, mea culpa. Freedom of speech is paramount, but that freedom does not grant you the right to make racist remarks, purposely try to hurt or insult people or instigate violence against.
Oh god, the fireworks that could happen if a Trump or Wilders or Le Penn (or etc) tweet was in breach of that law and taken offline to avoid hefty fines.
I mean, on paper at least, some of our hate speech legislature also apply to foreign citizens, if I'm understanding that correctly.
Nobody would ever want to open that particular can of worms, but could you imagine WW3 starting up over Putin or Trump getting pissy about evil Nazis censoring their tremendously truthful tweets? What a fitting end to humanity it'd be.
Jokes aside, I welcome the equalisation of public and online speech. Online speech is more far-reaching and persistent, so this (or at least, some version of this) was well overdue.
I mean, on paper at least, some of our hate speech legislature also apply to foreign citizens, if I'm understanding that correctly.
Nobody would ever want to open that particular can of worms, but could you imagine WW3 starting up over Putin or Trump getting pissy about evil Nazis censoring their tremendously truthful tweets? What a fitting end to humanity it'd be.
Jokes aside, I welcome the equalisation of public and online speech. Online speech is more far-reaching and persistent, so this (or at least, some version of this) was well overdue.
gutter_trash
Banned
it's not exclussive to Right Wing Extremism.
you have Far-Left nutjobs who are highly antisemtic as well, anti-west and for some reason join the Far-Right being anti-EU
I dont think the law will be written that its only aimed at Facebook and Twitter.
It is, but human dignity is at the core of the German constitution.
Article 1, before any other human right:
(1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
(2) The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world.
(3) The following basic rights shall bind the legislature, the executive and the judiciary as directly applicable law.
So human dignity is a vague concept, but it's
Good luck getting social justice for minorities when even the white middle class is getting sxrewed up the ass.
Red Arremer
Member
Twitter and Facebook only were used as examples, since just about everyone knows what those are. I'm pretty sure this law will extend to social media as a whole.
That said, it's questionable in regards to forums and the likes. We'll have to see what the law looks like exactly.
lol
Yeah, people should endure the physical stress of getting death threats.
Which helps making sure these aren't normalized. The post-Brexit and post-Trump rise in hate crimes is because those people saw those elections and the statements of people like Farage and Trump as affirmations of their racist beliefs.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Reddit is fucked then, and I don't care after seeing the bile posted on politics subreddits
Muffin1611
Banned
Someone didn't read the rest of the thread.
Halph n Halph
Member
I'm not sure how this law would affect Reddit.
Kill Your Masters
Member
I agree, I just pointed out the type of extremism that is gaining traction and greatly benefits from hate speech.
Any type of far-left/right populism just always seemed like a cheap power grab to me.
- Status