• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Official Teaser

Status
Not open for further replies.

Daemul

Member
The old EU had to removed tbh, it was messy and full of trash, Lucasfilm starting fresh was the best choice.

This talk in recent Star Wars media about something in the far uncharted reaches of the Star Wars galaxy has me fucking worried though, the Yuuzhan Vong may be about to be re introduced into canon, and I am dreading it.

iirc they were actually meant to be in The Clone Wars before the Disney buyout.
 
I'm wondering what Obiwan, Anakin and Yoda (if any of them are in it) have to say about all this lol. It must've been a blast for Rian to write that dialogue, lucky man. Easy drama and a lot to play with considering one might agree and another won't.

Also, who the hell knows what Luke is talking about, we need to see what their spiritual journey and that book of Whills does.
 
I think the Yhuuzun Vong are probably gone from new Star Wars canon
And I can't say I'd want them introduced either. Maybe take the aspect of some beinga being outside the force and leave the rest.
I agree with them starting over, but I'm afraid we're going to be in a similar mess years down the road.
They're going to be a lot more careful this time because they know how quickly that can spiral out of control. They've made a clear effort to unify the Canon across all mediums while making sure nothing over reaches so they have more room to do everything they want across film, tv, games, etc
 

The Boat

Member
I think Luke going Gray Jedi and realizing the old Jedi Order way doesn't work is a fantastic direction for the movies.

Luke started his training as an adult and defied Yoda's (and Obi-Wan's iirc) orders to stay behind and abandon his friends to finish his training.
These are good examples of him going against the old way of doing things and the prequels further the sentiment that the Jedi Order is too stuck on its extremist black and white ways, which makes it easier for Jedi to fall to the Dark Side.

A new generation of more balanced and open minded Force users could be what brings balance to the Force and it all started with Anakin.
 
I think Luke going Gray Jedi and realizing the old Jedi Order way doesn't work is a fantastic direction for the movies.

Luke started his training as an adult and defied Yoda's (and Obi-Wan's iirc) orders to stay behind and abandon his friends to finish his training.
These are good examples of him going against the old way of doing things and the prequels further the sentiment that the Jedi Order is too stuck on its extremist black and white ways, which makes it easier for Jedi to fall to the Dark Side.

A new generation of more balanced and open minded Force users could be what brings balance to the Force and it all started with Anakin.

Brofist

Though I think the catalyst will be Kylo Ren destroying everything he worked for, which is also why he looks pissed and jaded
 

sphagnum

Banned
The old EU had to removed tbh, it was messy and full of trash, Lucasfilm starting fresh was the best choice.

This talk in recent Star Wars media about something in the far uncharted reaches of the Star Wars galaxy has me fucking worried though, the Yuuzhan Vong may be about to be re introduced into canon, and I am dreading it.

iirc they were actually meant to be in The Clone Wars before the Disney buyout.

It's almost certainly in relation to Snoke since the mysterious thing in the Unknown Regions has to do with the dark side.

If the Yuuzhan Vong come back it will be as a silly X-Files homage like Filoni was thinking of doing in TCW.
 
The old EU had to removed tbh, it was messy and full of trash, Lucasfilm starting fresh was the best choice.

This talk in recent Star Wars media about something in the far uncharted reaches of the Star Wars galaxy has me fucking worried though, the Yuuzhan Vong may be about to be re introduced into canon, and I am dreading it.

iirc they were actually meant to be in The Clone Wars before the Disney buyout.

There were plans, yeah. Though, I think it was planned to be along the lines of the reference in Kotor - or rather, what Canderous described. That is, our heroes would have fought the Yuuzhan Vong, who would have been all mysterious and shit, but they wouldn't have been able to properly identify who or what they were. Technically with that approach even if it had happened, the Story Group would be free to redefine the implications of that encounter as they wished - sure, there'd be pressure to make it straight up the Yuuzhan Vong as we know them, but these are the same people who willingly reworked Malachor into the story. They'd find a way.

If you're referring to how the Unknown Regions has gotten brought up, that's mainly has the hiding place of First Order and shit. Though, there's definitely some unanswered mysteries in the universe right now, like just what exactly Palpatine was planning with the Sith monastery under the Jedi Temple.
 

Roufianos

Member
Kasdan and JJ worked on Episode 7 together
Rian Johnson wrote and directed episode 8
Rian Johnson wrote all the story of 9, Colin Trevarrow is directing 9 and writing the screenplay of Rian's story

It's different for each film. JJ and Kasdan came up with TFA but left behind some suggestions for where to go from there without a hard outline. Rian took it wherever he wanted, and he's doing a treatment for IX but Trevorrow will be able to do whatever he wants ultimately as well.

The LSG will keep it all consistent.

They make it up as they go to some extent. The story group steers them through existing canon so they aren't contradicting shit, and makes suggestions where they can to help tie things together more tightly, but for the most part - Abrams & Kasdan came up with their story largely all by themselves, Johnson came up with his story, and he & Abrams worked together briefly to make sure they weren't stepping on each other's feet, and I believe Johnson came up with ideas for 9, but Trevorrow & his writing partner are also going their own way, based on what came before. (plus they've had to start over in some aspects due to Fisher's death)

None of the writers/directors are having directions seriously dictated to them. They have a lot of freedom to tell the story the way they wanna tell it.

Obviously some ideas for stuff was initially thought of. Abrams had ideas for how things would continue, and I'm sure they've got some bigger landmarks that they'd like to hit. But Rian Johnson said during one of his first meetings with Kathy Kennedy she was pretty much like "So, tell me what happens next." Johnson could go along with what Abrams had in mind or branch off and do his own thing, as long as it makes sense. I assume the same is the case for Trevorrow and Derek Connolly on IX (especially since Kennedy said they essentially started from scratch in January after Carrie Fisher died).

Thanks for the answers guys. Interesting stuff.
 

TreIII

Member
Because the old EU was very, very fond of interconnecting with itself. Moreover, that would mean material the the franchise owners and/or LSG would have to go back to and check they were comfortably within the boundaries of whatever they set up for canon - for example, if they ever want to reference the nature of Sith Empires in the past, Kotor's stuff would come up - instead of having the clean slate where they could cherrypick the bits they wanted. Easier to apply a consistent rule than make those sorts of exceptions which would, well, take time.

Those things are very likely going to get reintroduced into the new EU in some form, but they probably are figuring out if there's anything they want to change about them before plugging them into the new EU. Those things will definitely come back, especially the KOTOR stuff, it's just a matter of how and when. Like say they want to make films on the old republic, the old EU might contradict either the current Canon or the story they wanted to tell. But I think KOTOR stuff is definitely coming back.

It's just easier to throw out everything and curate what you do like rather than curate everything and keep some and throw out the vast majority.

Good points. I forgot how many rabbit holes exist just in the KOTOR side alone...

And as for the bolded...that's my hope, too, anyway. I truly believe that Star Wars comic, books and especially games, are not going to be able to truly be something unique and unto themselves until they're able to free pubs/devs, showrunners and authors from working within the confines of the movies and are able to tell their own stories.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons I'm holding it down in the Stig + Respawn Star Wars game waiting room (well, besides the fact that it's Stig and Respawn working together on a Star Wars game). If what that teaser gave off is a mere hint that we may get a game where Jedi/Sith were plentiful, and it's not intrinsically tied to the movies, then I'm already even more happy about that game than I am already.
 
There's no such thing as a grey Jedi.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

Anyway, I think that the old republic might actually get mentioned in episode 8, considering Luke's been to ancient Jedi temples, I wouldn't be surprised if Smoke takes Kylo somewhere similar for his training.

So it's things like that that make it difficult when you have stuff like KOTOR in the way. But as far as I'm concerned, Revan is canon considering how close he was to getting into the Clone Wars.
 
I want to see Luke ready to kill a Jedi who is going to do the wrong thing for the right reasons as he is to kill Kylo.

I feel like a Kurosawa samurai would do that.

Oh my god, that is what Luke is going to be. He's going to be a scruffy gruff antihero samurai with a heart of gold straight out of a Kurosawa movie.
 
I think Luke going Gray Jedi and realizing the old Jedi Order way doesn't work is a fantastic direction for the movies.

Luke started his training as an adult and defied Yoda's (and Obi-Wan's iirc) orders to stay behind and abandon his friends to finish his training.
These are good examples of him going against the old way of doing things and the prequels further the sentiment that the Jedi Order is too stuck on its extremist black and white ways, which makes it easier for Jedi to fall to the Dark Side.

A new generation of more balanced and open minded Force users could be what brings balance to the Force and it all started with Anakin.

Anakin felt like the victim of everything that's wrong with the Jedi Order. Although George didn't write it well to convey it. Nor did he dwell on Qui Gon who seemed to be on the verge of being "grey" but this obsession with grey is unhealthy lol. I think Luke has read more than Yoda and Obiwan and doesn't see a way for there to be peace maybe without getting rid of Jedi and Sith. Who knows.
 
I think I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I suspect if the Kotor stuff is brought back in, it'll be reworked in some fashion to tie in with some of the ideas that have been tossed around with regards to the Old Republic, and/or the ancient past of the Jedi, from current canon. Stuff like the Sith having a variety of terrifying superweapons powered by Kyber crystals, the Scourge of Malachor, that one time the Sith took over Coruscant...

There's no such thing as a grey Jedi.

As to this, while I doubt the notion as well in so much that one of the major players involved in shepherding current canon has come out against the term, that doesn't necessarily mean we won't see some kind of alternative or replacement to the Jedi emerge, assuming they don't just go with the idea of Luke being wrong.

But yes, in current canon, the concept of a grey Jedi is not a thing. If you're not in the order you're not a Jedi, grey or otherwise. So Ahsoka is a force wielder, and uses lightsabers, but she's not a grey Jedi because she's not a Jedi at all anymore. Similarly, 'dark Jedi' has not been established as an in universe concept either, even though the Inquisitors slot in pretty much exactly with how it was applied in the old EU during the Empire's era.

Edit:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

Anyway, I think that the old republic might actually get mentioned in episode 8, considering Luke's been to ancient Jedi temples, I wouldn't be surprised if Smoke takes Kylo somewhere similar for his training.

So it's things like that that make it difficult when you have stuff like KOTOR in the way. But as far as I'm concerned, Revan is canon considering how close he was to getting into the Clone Wars.

That sort of article is a pure Legends article, not current canon.
 

shingi70

Banned
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

Anyway, I think that the old republic might actually get mentioned in episode 8, considering Luke's been to ancient Jedi temples, I wouldn't be surprised if Smoke takes Kylo somewhere similar for his training.

So it's things like that that make it difficult when you have stuff like KOTOR in the way. But as far as I'm concerned, Revan is canon considering how close he was to getting into the Clone Wars.

https://mobile.twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/821480675463151617?lang=en


It makes no sense considering the Jedi are a religion. He'd just be a Jedi or something entirely new.

Using the term grey Jedi is like calling Kylo Ren a
Sith just before he uses the darkside.
 
I think Grey Jedi is just a catch all term that we're going to use until it's given a name, which it likely will be.

But there will be no more Jedi after Luke, there will always be force users, light and dark, but the Jedi are done, and I feel like it's the same for the sith.

But we're using Gray Jedi to mean neither light or dark force user.
 

TreIII

Member
I think I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I suspect if the Kotor stuff is brought back in, it'll be reworked in some fashion to tie in with some of the ideas that have been tossed around with regards to the Old Republic, and/or the ancient past of the Jedi, from current canon. Stuff like the Sith having a variety of terrifying superweapons powered by Kyber crystals, the Scourge of Malachor, that one time the Sith took over Coruscant...

Don't forget Sith Magic/Alchemy~!

After the way the Nightsisters were introduced in the CW series along with their Magick, I wouldn't be surprised if they took a step further and just said that Magic/Alchemy was a thing too in those ancient eras.
 

Jimothy

Member
I want to see Luke ready to kill a Jedi who is going to do the wrong thing for the right reasons as he is to kill Kylo.

I feel like a Kurosawa samurai would do that.

Oh my god, that is what Luke is going to be. He's going to be a scruffy gruff antihero samurai with a heart of gold straight out of a Kurosawa movie.

Sounds more like Harakiri tbh
 

The Boat

Member
Anakin felt like the victim of everything that's wrong with the Jedi Order. Although George didn't write it well to convey it. Nor did he dwell on Qui Gon who seemed to be on the verge of being "grey" but this obsession with grey is unhealthy lol. I think Luke has read more than Yoda and Obiwan and doesn't see a way for there to be peace maybe without getting rid of Jedi and Sith. Who knows.

Those points are precisely why it's not "unhealthy" to "obsess" over Gray Jedi, they make it all fit. Qui-Gon already saw the problems within the Jedi Order and he was ready to train Anakin without the Order's permission, his priority wasn't following an old establishment or adding to their ranks, but to serve the living Force.

Although Lucas wrote many things terribly in the prequels, I don't think this was one of them, he made it pretty obvious (to people who aren't busy fuming over how Lucas raped their childhoods) that the Order was broken and blind to its faults, which brought about their downfall and the rise of Vader and the Sith. In fact, to me, this was always the main point of the prequels. That Anakin felt oppressed by the Order is also clearly and directly stated.

Edit: Yeah, Gray Jedi is pretty much a catch all term for Jedi who don't strictly adhere to the Order and its obsession with their rules and how they decide the Force should be followed. Saying "you're either a Jedi or you're not" is like saying you can't be a Catholic if you disagree with some things the Catholic Church does, but share their core values.
 
I think Grey Jedi is just a catch all term that we're going to use until it's given a name, which it likely will be.

But there will be no more Jedi after Luke, there will always be force users, light and dark, but the Jedi are done, and I feel like it's the same for the sith.

But we're using Gray Jedi to mean neither light or dark force user.

Admittedly it's not helped that it was of course a rather popular EU concept, and one among rpers and fanfiction writers, but also one that could be applied in varying degrees. It sort of goes back into the discussion about differing understandings of what 'balance' is, where the idea is so widely used but so poorly defined it just doesn't lend itself to conducive discussion.

I admit I don't react well to the notion of Luke becoming a 'grey Jedi', because my experience of, and witnessing praise for, the idea of 'grey Jedi' has been largely defined by people whose application of such has been, to be a bit blunt in my opinion, frankly shallow shit. A blind application of 'balance' and 'both sides' rhetoric without any actual measurement of whatever ethical issues they want to dismiss, which oddly almost always had more issue with the Jedi as 'hypocrites' more than they did the Sith as openly evil, so long as they had the occasional soft spot. Where Kotor 2 is the fucking gospel for what Star Wars should actually be, and Kreia an absolutely perfect mentor because she's familiar with A-Level philosophy and the Problem of Evil, and Revan is a force wielding messiah because he knew how to be neutral.

I'll take a different shade of grey, thank you very much.
 

Big Nikus

Member
well obviously.

Until there's a different name though, "grey Jedi" is the best we've got. Everyone knows what it means.

Yeah Grey Jedi is like what the NX was to the Switch... I guess.
Luke be like : "look at me, light ! dark ! Switching sides !!!"
So, my bet is that the new name will be Switch.
"Rey, you're a Switch now"
"I'm a Switch now."
 

Woorloog

Banned
Some musings:

I always thought a gray Jedi was someone like Qui-Gon, a maverick who is part of the Order but does his or her own thing for most part. A heretic in a sense.

I never thought of gray Jedi as a non-Jedi Force user, or former Jedi. An ex-Jedi simply is no longer a Jedi since they're no longer part of the Order.
And i definitively never used the term for someone who tries to "balance" good and evil, because that is nonsense as a concept. Using the Dark Side safely is not possible, it is inherently corrupting.

And likewise, the term "dark Jedi" is a misnomer, for dark Jedi are not Jedi usually. Even if they were Jedi, they aren't exactly Jedi since they've fallen to the Dark Side (well, they might be technically part of the Order so the term would be appropriate in these cases but they're rare to non-existent in practice).

"Force user" is slightly awkward term but more accurate than most others. Usable if a person doesn't belong to an order of some kind and there's no title that could be used. Alternatively, "Lightsider" or "Darksider" but these are more fit as IRL descriptions than as in-universe terms.
Also, a Force user must be Force sensitive but not all Force sensitives are Force users.


Speaking of balance, to me it seems that balance is a "natural" course with no "personification" of evil like Palpatine or Sith in general. And before someone notes it is odd how two Sith even when the Jedi Order exists is "imbalance", i'll note that the universe is not a thing of symmetry. For example, there's no anti-matter around even though matter and anti-matter are supposedly created equally. Or how certain physical phenomena aren't symmetric (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_experiment). Of course, it isn't that simple with people like Snoke existing while Palps was alive yet supposedly Anakin restored "balance" by killing Palps. Perhaps the Sith specifically were an aberration?
 
My preferred direction if they go the grey route is addressing why it's important not to ignore your emotions and what not because it leads to self righteousness and blindness and an order based around those things leads those to seek the dark.

Everyone has a bit of both in them and having both is what allows you to be human for lack of a better term and there's nothing wrong with that.

So making an order based off of being "human" I feel is the right direction. Using both sides of the force since it's your natural state to be neither and only through that can there be balance in the force. With fire comes shadow but if there is no light there is no dark.

Some musings:

I always thought a gray Jedi was someone like Qui-Gon, a maverick who is part of the Order but does his or her own thing for most part. A heretic in a sense.

I never thought of gray Jedi as a non-Jedi Force user, or former Jedi. An ex-Jedi simply is no longer a Jedi since they're no longer part of the Order.
And i definitively never used the term for someone who tries to "balance" good and evil, because that is nonsense as a concept. Using the Dark Side safely is not possible, it is inherently corrupting.

And likewise, the term "dark Jedi" is a misnomer, for dark Jedi are not Jedi. Even if they were Jedi, they aren't exactly Jedi since they've fallen to the Dark Side (well, they might be technically part of the Order so the term would be appropriate in these cases but they're rare to non-existent in practice).

"Force user" is slightly awkward term but more accurate than most others. Usable if a person doesn't belong to an order of some kind and there's no title that could be used. Also, a Force user must be Force sensitive but not all Force sensitives are Force users.


Speaking of balance, to me it seems that balance is a "natural" course with no "personification" of evil like Palpatine or Sith in general. And before someone notes it is odd how two Sith even when the Jedi Order exists is "imbalance", i'll note that the universe is not a thing of symmetry. For example, there's no anti-matter around even though matter and anti-matter are supposedly created equally. Or how certain physical phenomena aren't symmetric (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_experiment). Of course, it isn't that simple with people like Snoke existing while Palps was alive yet supposedly Anakin restored "balance" by killing Palps. Perhaps the Sith specifically were an aberration?
We have no idea how the force works anymore and using real world examples to explain space magic probably won't end up accurate lol.
 
I think the Yhuuzun Vong are probably gone from new Star Wars canon
And I can't say I'd want them introduced either. Maybe take the aspect of some beinga being outside the force and leave the rest.

They're going to be a lot more careful this time because they know how quickly that can spiral out of control. They've made a clear effort to unify the Canon across all mediums while making sure nothing over reaches so they have more room to do everything they want across film, tv, games, etc

For years since the buyout, I've held onto this notion that everything in the EU has been put on standby until it's called up to be used future projects. What if the next project Dave Filoni is working on turned out to be the Timothy Zahn trilogy? Imagine an animated series on Netflix, charting the events of those 3 books. Granted, they would have to do some repurposing to avoid conflicts with the current existing films and TV shows, but if Filoni was ever looking to have his next Star Wars animated TV series based on the main cast from the OT, going that route would make some waves.
 
30 years of what has Luke been up to, they are going to botch it know. Daisy said its like when you meet your hero's and you are disappointed. If Luke is going to be some crabby old man, i dont want it.
 
My preferred direction if they go the grey route is addressing why it's important not to ignore your emotions and what not because it leads to self righteousness and blindness and an order based around those things leads those to seek the dark.

Everyone has a bit of both in them and having both is what allows you to be human for lack of a better term and there's nothing wrong with that.

So making an order based off of being "human" I feel is the right direction. Using both sides of the force since it's your natural state to be neither and only through that can there be balance in the force. With fire comes shadow but if there is no light there is no dark.

See, this to me reads something along the lines of 'a lighter shade of grey'. 80% light, 20% dark, for example.

Bobby brought it up earlier when addressing characters like the Bendu, who he ascribed as '100% balance', or otherwise 50/50. A character like that is not a hero. He is not morally correct in the Star Wars universe. He would let the Empire roughshod the universe so long as it did not personally dick with him.

Yet it is that sort of 50/50 balance that I so often end up reading out of when people toss out 'balance', 'grey Jedi', etc. Like when you say 'everyone has a little bit of both inside them', that makes them sound like they should be there in equal measure, rather than being merely present in whatever respective quantities, to be used as needed.

So I apologise in advance if I make any false presumptions based on that.
 

Woorloog

Banned
We have no idea how the force works anymore and using real world examples to explain space magic probably won't end up accurate lol.

My point with those real world examples is that since real world is not symmetric, we can assume this mostly holds true to Star Wars universe (since evidently a lot of things hold true there).
And since physical universes probably are not symmetric, assuming magic inside them is symmetric is a mistake. More specifically, one should avoid defaulting to either one (assuming asymmetry is a mistake as well really). Maybe magic is symmetric, may be not, but neither one should be held to be true until proven.
 

JB1981

Member
Like, that's clearly edited. You guys that easily fooled? (speaking about the interview about VIII)

Forget the YouTube channel. Hamill is clearly stating that he disagreed with some of the story and character choices made by JJ. He even goes on to say that he preferred a fan theory he read online compared to what Rian Johnson had in mind. He's being modest about having bad ideas of his own.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Guys

Hear me out

The Jedi are going to be replaced with

The New Jedi

(Also the title for Episode IX, you heard it here first)
 
See, this to me reads something along the lines of 'a lighter shade of grey'. 80% light, 20% dark, for example.

Bobby brought it up earlier when addressing characters like the Bendu, who he ascribed as '100% balance', or otherwise 50/50. A character like that is not a hero. He is not morally correct in the Star Wars universe. He would let the Empire roughshod the universe so long as it did not personally dick with him.

Yet it is that sort of 50/50 balance that I so often end up reading out of when people toss out 'balance', 'grey Jedi', etc. Like when you say 'everyone has a little bit of both inside them', that makes them sound like they should be there in equal measure, rather than being merely present in whatever respective quantities, to be used as needed.

So I apologise in advance if I make any false presumptions based on that.

Yeah but, theres also the fact that Bendu is just an asshole, it doesn't have anything to do with his force alignment.

Ventress is a dark side user, but she's done good things
Barriss is a Jedi, she's done dick things.

The thing I want most is for them to stop moving in the very clean cut "good vs evil" direction. The dark side isn't inherently evil, the light side isn't inherently good, that's just generally where things have been for the most part so far but that doesn't mean things can't change.

Not every Jedi or rebel is good and not every sith or member of the empire is bad, it's all a matter of perspective and I hope this is something that's explored in the films.

A dark side user can be a protagonist and morally correct if you look at it from a certain angle and adding those gray areas and depth is really what Star Wars needs

But for Gray Jedi I'm just saying that they should tap into both sides rather than ignoring one. Because again, being a Jedi and using the light doesn't make you good in the same way being a dark side user doesn't make you bad.
 

Woorloog

Banned
IMO Star Wars has been pretty clear about how the Dark Side is inherently corrupting and destructive, and more specifically, self-destructive. It is not just using the Force for evil acts, it changes the whole person and drives them toward further destruction.

A Darksider can get rid of it, do morally right decisions. But it takes work, and usually strong motivation.

Curiously, this same doesn't seem to apply to the Light Side, a Lighsider doesn't become better just because they're Lightsiders. Doing good also requires effort.
 

Oozer3993

Member
If I recall correctly the wookies on that planet were supposed to be fully enslaved by the Empire, though they would obviously rebel during the film somehow.



I mean the new, current EU.

The wookies were suppose to be slaves and part of the main construction work force for the Death Star. You know, kinda like how Chewie was great with the Falcon and machinery.

In that situation it did make sense.

This common misconception has been going around for awhile. I think it started with Gary Kurtz, the producer of A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. But I'm almost positive he was confused. He was let go before Empire Strikes Back even came out so he likely had little to no knowledge of Episode VI. As far as I can tell, Wookies were never gonna be in Return of the Jedi. There's no mention of them in The Making of Return of the Jedi while even the earliest outlines of the movie have Ewoks (or "Ewaks" as they were called in the outlines).

The rough draft of The Star Wars did include Annikin crash landing on the "Wookee" planet, called Yavin in the script, where he saw some Wookees captured by trappers, who he then freed and led in an attack.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Yeah but, theres also the fact that Bendu is just an asshole, it doesn't have anything to do with his force alignment.

Ventress is a dark side user, but she's done good things
Barriss is a Jedi, she's done dick things.

The thing I want most is for them to stop moving in the very clean cut "good vs evil" direction. The dark side isn't inherently evil, the light side isn't inherently good, that's just generally where things have been for the most part so far but that doesn't mean things can't change.

Not every Jedi or rebel is good and not every sith or member of the empire is bad, it's all a matter of perspective and I hope this is something that's explored in the films.

A dark side user can be a protagonist and morally correct if you look at it from a certain angle and adding those gray areas and depth is really what Star Wars needs


Barriss is a staight up dark Jedi like Dooku before her. She even says red lightsaber suit her. Ventriss is more of a no mans lands similar to Ahsoka who she had parallels with.

The show did go out of it's way to imply Barriss had a point though which culminated in Ahsoka leaving the order as the only person that truly had her back was Anakin who was barely holding back his rage at the bureaucratic nonsense as is.
 
IMO Star Wars has been pretty clear about how the Dark Side is inherently corrupting and destructive, and more specifically, self-destructive. It is not just using the Force for evil acts, it changes the whole person and drives them toward further destruction.

A Darksider can get rid of it, do morally right decisions. But it takes work, and usually strong motivation.

Curiously, this same doesn't seem to apply to the Light Side, a Lighsider doesn't become better just because they're Lightsiders. Doing good also requires effort.
Good is a matter of perspective. The Jedi didn't always do good and only did good in matters that concerned them, otherwise they didn't care. The Jedi Republic were kind of assholes.

And you have to remember that generally everyone thinks they're doing the right thing, but what's good and beneficial for me might be detrimental to you.

The Jedi Republic only cared about what was good to them.


Barriss is a staight up dark Jedi like Dooku before her. She even says red lightsaber suit her. Ventriss is more of a no mans lands similar to Ahsoka who she had parallels with.

The show did go out of it's way to imply Barriss had a point though which culminated in Ahsoka leaving the order as the only person that truly had her back was Anakin who was barely holding back his rage at the bureaucratic nonsense as is.
Barriss was a Jedi, her red lightsabers were the ones she stole from Ventress when framing Ahsoka.

Barriss was right, the way she went about it was wrong.
 
Yeah but, theres also the fact that Bendu is just an asshole, it doesn't have anything to do with his force alignment.

Ventress is a dark side user, but she's done good things
Barriss is a Jedi, she's done dick things.

The thing I want most is for them to stop moving in the very clean cut "good vs evil" direction. The dark side isn't inherently evil, the light side isn't inherently good, that's just generally where things have been for the most part so far but that doesn't mean things can't change.

Not every Jedi or rebel is good and not every sith or member of the empire is bad, it's all a matter of perspective and I hope this is something that's explored in the films.

A dark side user can be a protagonist and morally correct if you look at it from a certain angle and adding those gray areas and depth is really what Star Wars needs

See, that's being really abstract with things. It reduces things to another oft mocked line from Revenge of the Sith - "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

If you're going to cite someone like say, Ventress, as an example of your last point, worth realising that the stories we do get from her are not coded in moral justifications, but personal motives. Her deliberately doing the right thing - such as in her final moments - is not something wrought of the dark side; such moments are exceptions.

Nuance is fine. Nuance adds depth, yes. Exceptions to many a rule must exist. But your phrasing reduces it all to abstract that makes it seem as though there is no substantial difference between the various factions and forces as depicted - because its all a matter of perspective rather than substance - and that is fundamentally not true.
 
See, that's being really abstract with things. It reduces things to another oft mocked line from Revenge of the Sith - "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

If you're going to cite someone like say, Ventress, as an example of your last point, worth realising that the stories we do get from her are not coded in moral justifications, but personal motives. Her deliberately doing the right thing - such as in her final moments - is not something wrought of the dark side; such moments are exceptions.

Nuance is fine. Nuance adds depth, yes. Exceptions to many a rule must exist. But your phrasing reduces it all to abstract that makes it seem as though there is no substantial difference between the various factions and forces as depicted - because its all a matter of perspective rather than substance - and that is fundamentally not true.

I'm not saying that but I can see how you would confuse it for that.

Yes I'm being abstract but what I'm saying by that is I'd like to see more of that, less Black and white

But what I'm also saying is that light side== good and dark == bad. It's a matter of how you use it and how far you go and I'd like to see those two ideas uncoupled because it opens up a more interesting story and direction for future material that's seldom been tread.

Rather than light is good, dark is evil, let's fight constantly forever.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Good is a matter of perspective. The Jedi didn't always do good and only did good in matters that concerned them, otherwise they didn't care. The Jedi Republic were kind of assholes.

And you have to remember that generally everyone thinks they're doing the right thing, but what's good and beneficial for me might be detrimental to you.

The Jedi Republic only cared about what was good to them.
The movies on general have been pretty consisent about the dark side. There's a reason why there's the whole anger leads to hatred which leads to the dark side (notice how dark side is the end point not the giving into anger) and why the emperor goads luke into giving into to his anger which luke ultimately rejects by the end of the film. The dark sode itself is easy corrupting power which is why it's so easy to succumb to.

The Jedi order itself was corrupted by the Senate by it's use as political war asset which fundamentally changed it and forced it play the usual political games when the order are essentially monks. That's basically what barriss's fall was about
 
I'm not saying that but I can see how you would confuse it for that.

Yes I'm being abstract but what I'm saying by that is I'd like to see more of that, less Black and white

But what I'm also saying is that light side== good and dark == bad. It's a matter of how you use it and how far you go and I'd like to see those two ideas uncoupled because it opens up a more interesting story and direction for future material that's seldom been tread.

Rather than light is good, dark is evil, let's fight constantly forever.

Took longer than expected to draft this response, but...

I feel like trying to completely decouple the dark side from the way it's been depicted is actually a misstep. From simply using the dark side as an inherently bad thing? Yes. Treating the dark side as something naturally healthy for you? No.

Because, particularly if stressing this idea of balance, I feel like it would fit more, better serve the story, still allow those more interesting approaches you seek, but still maintain consistency with the rest of the franchise thus far, if the dark side inherent of itself, remains that realm of vices.

Because obviously, ambitions of power, greed, wanton anger, the lust for cruelty - these are things that, if indulged and unchecked, create what we commonly label evil. That explains all the dark siders we've ever seen over the course of the franchise. But they are part of us. We cope with them. And sometimes, we harness them to do greater things. They're more likely to be bad, by the nature of how they affect our interactions with others, but don't have to be, given the right circumstances.

Though on the 'let's fight forever' front, I actually think that's more a failing of the old EU than anything else. In particular, the continued overreliance on the Sith specifically as the only force of dark siders to oppose the Jedi. So that rather than the Jedi being depicted as responding to evil where it emerged and in whatever form it took, it was continually the same old, extended grudge match along apparent religious lines, which because of writers having to tie in everything together, would in some way be the underlying cause of every other conflict (or enough to make the fandom feel it was that way). It gave fuel to all those arguments that if the Jedi just never existed, surely the Sith wouldn't too, and thus everybody would be happy.

It's actually part of why I have a small fondness for concepts like the Nightsisters, particularly in current canon where they are not really related to either side. The sort of threat that frames the Jedi as more general protectors, rather than existing specifically deter one bad batch of their own crop that keeps coming back up.
 

DeanBDean

Member
This common misconception has been going around for awhile. I think it started with Gary Kurtz, the producer of A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. But I'm almost positive he was confused. He was let go before Empire Strikes Back even came out so he likely had little to no knowledge of Episode VI. As far as I can tell, Wookies were never gonna be in Return of the Jedi. There's no mention of them in The Making of Return of the Jedi while even the earliest outlines of the movie have Ewoks (or "Ewaks" as they were called in the outlines).

The rough draft of The Star Wars did include Annikin crash landing on the "Wookee" planet, called Yavin in the script, where he saw some Wookees captured by trappers, who he then freed and led in an attack.

Well, it comes from the fact that Wookies in the original Star Wars were supposed to be kinda like giant Ewoks. They weren't supposed to be tech savvy at all, and they were going to fight the sophisticated Empire. So George repurposed that idea with the Ewoks.
 

Oozer3993

Member
Episode 9 is gonna be "Balance of the Force" finally, won't it

Star Wars Episode IX - The Creeping Fear

Or maybe Star Wars Episode IX - The Ancient Fear

Ain't It Cool has got to get a "The _____ Fear" title correctly one of these days.

Well, it comes from the fact that Wookies in the original Star Wars were supposed to be kinda like giant Ewoks. They weren't supposed to be tech savvy at all, and they were going to fight the sophisticated Empire. So George repurposed that idea with the Ewoks.

This too! Thanks for adding this! It's an important piece that I forgot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom