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Rogue One is a better Star Wars film than The Force Awakens

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There's several ways you can incorporate the idea of galactic superweapons without doing another giant planet laser.

When you're trying to rule a galaxy, what better way to put your foot down than having the ability to wipe out star systems? I get the complaint, but for me it made sense and I really again don't think the story focused much on it. Like you said it was a means to get the characters to and from certain points. I saw it as more of a stage for those events, rather than it being the event. In IV, the entire climax is centered around destroying it. In VII, the climax is centered around Rey/Finn/Kylo/Han and the lightsaber duel. There's a reason why they plugged in Poe destroying the chamber very briefly instead of doing a 10-minute trench run.

That's what would have been a "retread" to me, but it didn't feel like the same thing. I'd have been complaining if they did something like that too.

The superweapon should've been the Finalizer instead of SKB.

A big thing that shoots a planet destroying laser instead of a big thing that shoots a planet destroying laser.
 

Kin5290

Member
Nah. A movie hinges on its characters and R1's characters are all pretty garbage. Especially Jyn.

The movie's not even that dark. Sure, all the good guys die, but they die cleanly and, for the most part, instantaneously. There's no squaddie being gutshot by a sniper and forced to be left to die because he's being used as bait, or shrapnel or gunshots to the throat that are fatal but leave a man conscious to face his mortality as he bleeds out. Sure, not every death has to be super gory, but if your film is going to be super dark to explore the horrors of war some of them probably should be.

Jenny Nicholson sums it up pretty well.
 
Having watched both in consecutive weekends, I can say I appreciate both but I just LOVE Gareth Edwards' sense of scale. So from a visual/cinematography perspective, I find Rogue One superior.

Funny thing is, I saw R1 at a very late showing in theaters with very little sleep and started dozing during parts. I couldn't fault the film but I did wonder if maybe it was a bit bland. But my second viewing on vudu put that to rest. Maybe it helps knowing the story and characters a bit more.

But TFA doesn't offend me. I still really like it and appreciate its differences from ANH even if I do recognize its similarities.
 
Having watched both in consecutive weekends, I can say I appreciate both but I just LOVE Gareth Edwards' sense of scale. So from a visual/cinematography perspective, I find Rogue One superior.

Rogue One had pretty good visuals and cinematography, but I thought VII was better in that regard. The lightsaber fight alone is the best looking sequence of any Star War.
 

Kin5290

Member
Also, why was Darth Vader in the movie? I mean, I know why he was in the movie, for shameless fanservice, but from a narrative perspective what is he doing there? The penultimate scene of a movie about the self-sacrifice of a bunch of scrappy rebels is a completely different set of rebels being slaughtered en masse by a guy in a robot suit to cool music.
 
Nah. A movie hinges on its characters and R1's characters are all pretty garbage. Especially Jyn.

The movie's not even that dark. Sure, all the good guys die, but they die cleanly and, for the most part, instantaneously. There's no squaddie being gutshot by a sniper and forced to be left to die because he's being used as bait, or shrapnel or gunshots to the throat that are fatal but leave a man conscious to face his mortality as he bleeds out. Sure, not every death has to be super gory, but if your film is going to be super dark to explore the horrors of war some of them probably should be.

Jenny Nicholson sums it up pretty well.
"This movie is no 'Full Metal Jacket' therefor why bother existing?"

It's a darker story within a lighthearted Disney adventure. No need to project some kind of "horrors of war" gore. It worked quite well in being its own thing bringing folks of varying roles within the resistance together for a common cause.
 

Surfinn

Member
I'm out here having fun while y'all are defending J.J. Abrams literally switching names for Tatooine and Yavin IV with Jakku & Takodana.But notice how no one has any problem when you point out Star Trek '09 was a a mediocre ANH clone as well 🤔

Was just having some fun :(
 
Rogue One had pretty good visuals and cinematography, but I thought VII was better in that regard. The lightsaber fight alone is the best looking sequence of any Star War.
That is a great scene and there are many great scenes. But the scope, I felt, was better defined in Rogue One which inches it ahead. Especially that Destroyer in Destroyer scene or the closeups of the deathstar.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Was just having some fun :(

We're all having fun, get over here my brudda

kane_daniel_bryan_wwehug.gif
 
TFA is a complete, 100% blatant retread of ANH, with characters ranging from good to awful.


Ah yes, I loved the part of A New Hope where a Stormtrooper defected from the empire and became a boon to the rebellion.

And that other part where a dark side force user was tempted by the light, but ultimately finds the inner fortitude to commit fratricide.

Man, remember that part where the middle aged separated couple reconnect over the glimmer of a hope of reclaiming their estranged son?

What a sweet movie that was. Too bad TFA is a 100% retread.
 
Also, why was Darth Vader in the movie? I mean, I know why he was in the movie, for shameless fanservice, but from a narrative perspective what is he doing there? The penultimate scene of a movie about the self-sacrifice of a bunch of scrappy rebels is a completely different set of rebels being slaughtered en masse by a guy in a robot suit to cool music.

It's set days before Episode IV, and is literally about the Empire and stealing plans for their superweapon. The movie focuses heavily on the Empire and Darth Vader is a key figure of the Empire. Of course, no matter how much sense it makes, it's all fan service. Yeah, the hallway scene was probably done with "this would be cool, people would like this" in mind, and there's not a damn thing wrong with that, but it still made sense.

If they can do cool shit that works in the story, I mean where's the problem?

Ah yes, I loved the part of A New Hope where a Stormtrooper defected from the empire and became a boon to the rebellion.

And that other part where a dark side force user was tempted by the light, but ultimately finds the inner fortitude to commit fratricide.

Man, remember that part where the middle aged separated couple reunite over the glimmer of a hope of reclaiming their estranged son?

What a sweet movie that was. Too bad TFA is a 100% retread.

You could keep going for days.
 
Also, why was Darth Vader in the movie? I mean, I know why he was in the movie, for shameless fanservice, but from a narrative perspective what is he doing there? The penultimate scene of a movie about the self-sacrifice of a bunch of scrappy rebels is a completely different set of rebels being slaughtered en masse by a guy in a robot suit to cool music.

Vader's "There'll be no one to stop us this time" in the original film suggested he'd been involved in trying to retrieve the plans previously. His objective in the very beginning of that film is to retrieve them.
 

Pachinko

Member
I get this line of thinking , I really truly do but... I flat out disagree with it on every level.

Rogue one desperately wants to be enjoyed by it's audience, every single line, scene and character action is done with the express purpose of making the audience like or sympathize with them.. to such an extent that it ends up feeling phony. And, let's be honest here - it most likely is. Between all the screen writers and script doctors , re-shoots , focus testing , etc etc - very little of this film felt natural.

It's structured in a way that evokes a feeling of familiarity rather then organically eliciting the emotional response it's after. There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach , it just makes for a very forgettable movie. I honestly can't remember a single character name in this other then Jyn and that's only because of a viral story about a child cosplaying her that's made the rounds in the last few days. I recall the badass monk character but I can't remember his name. I recall some cool looking special effects action bits but they had no impact on me. I recall some horrible looking CG humonculus parading as Admiral Tarkin for far too many scenes and I recall some downright laughable bits involving darth vader (I guess some people thought those were cool?) but ultimately Rogue One was just fluff. It's a story that didn't really need to be told and it wastes what could be a fantastic cast of characters by giving nothing enough room to breathe.

20 years from now people will still be talking about "force awakens" but I have a sneaking suspicion that Rogue One will be forgotten, and hell, the forthcoming Han Solo / Bobba Fett films may well end up in the same boat. These prequels and such feel like the kind of stories that should be videogames /novels or comic books, maybe even straight to video animated shorts but... I don't think they're stories worth telling on the big screen.

In comparison - Episode 7 has a clear and concise plot that manages to carve it's own path with it's own characters organically growing on screen , despite borrowing a frame work used by both episode 4 and 6 - it still feels like it's own movie. I remember who Rey, Finn and Poe are , I know what they were trying to do and why , the CG characters were wacky aliens instead of horrifying humonsters. There was still plenty of fantastic action-y CG bits but unlike Rogue One , I feel invested in what's going on and anticipate the outcome rather than expect it. Even if episode 8,9 end up following a similar story arc to the previous 2 trilogies , it's still something new to watch where I don't wholly know the outcome. Rogue One - well of course everyone dies because , it's pretty much a fan fiction story - "what if there was a crack team of spies (except not really) that stole these plans and the protagonist was literally chosen from birth to steal these plans and they do and then they all die along with every single new character they associate with along with every single location they go to so that episode 4 can still happen with no changes at all". It's the inherent problem with a prequel story , you can't tell something interesting or unexpected and while Disney could have tried to do something, they went with the most hackneyed garbage they could because - it was familiar and focus tested to "work".

Ultimately Rogue One isn't bad , it's just lazy. Force Awakens I can at least describe as "fun".

Prefacing this whole rant though I mentioned that I understand people who would prefer Rogue one - and well, it's because it was genetically engineered to be a likable movie and it gave you ships and characters and action bits you loved from the old trilogy of movies but redone with modern day special effects. If you don't care about the actual story and characters and just want 90 minutes of "rad looking video game cutscenes" then hell yeah - Rogue One is a smorgas board of delight. It's basically a fan film , literally made by star wars uber dorks for other star wars uber dorks to clap and cheer at. There's nothing wrong with that and I'm not calling you all idiots for liking it or even thinking of myself and others that dislike it as some "super-woke" movie buffs. Enjoy what you enjoy , respect each others opinions.

Frankly, I'm happy for people that really didn't like Force Awakens for some reason or another if they found something to like in Rogue One. It's clear you enjoy the brand and Disney is probably ecstatic that you spent money on another movie , even better if it'll keep you buying tickets in the future. If that means that someone like myself ends up with boring forgettable films going forward , well, *I* don't have to keep watching. But at least someone will I suppose.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Definitely not. TFA is the best Star Wars movie since 1980, R1 doesn't even really feel like one. It feels like an action movie set in the Star Wars universe. Above all, its characters and their development is so damn weak. I didn't really give a shit about any of them (including the main girl, whose name I cannot remember) or that they all died. Star Wars for me is about the characters and what happens to them, and R1 sucked in that regard whereas TFA was pretty great.
 
Rogue one desperately wants to be enjoyed by it's audience, every single line, scene and character action is done with the express purpose of making the audience like or sympathize with them..

aside from the fact that there's a ton of movies for which this paragraph applies to (and isn't even really a criticism considering the type of movie being dealt with) I'm not sure how this personification of the movie is really accurate.

So not only is a film trying to get its audience to care about its characters not really a bad thing, I don't think that Edwards/Gilroy are trying to get the audience to sympathize/like all of them, either.

There is a sense of desperation present in the movie, sure. It's built into the plotting. But I'm not sure the film itself is desperate in its attempts to get an audience to like it. I don't get that.
 

.JayZii

Banned
Can't tell if sarcasm or not :p
It's a risk in that if they kill their golden goose then they won't have that nostalgia padding to fall back on. Dredging up original trilogy stuff is risky in the same way that the Final Fantasy VII remake is.

You can keeps milking your cow, but if everyone's had their fill of milk –and the last glass they had made them sick– then you're left with a bunch of unsold, spoiling milk and you're just attempting to peddle shitty cheese.
 
I'm out here having fun while y'all are defending J.J. Abrams literally switching names for Tatooine and Yavin IV with Jakku & Takodana.

But notice how no one has any problem when you point out Star Trek '09 was a a mediocre ANH clone as well 🤔

The sad part is JJ is probably a better film maker than Gareth.
 
Disagree completely. TFA wasn't a perfect movie but it was miles better, it used ANH as a homage while RO can't function properly without it.



Last Jedi will be better than both though.
 

caliph95

Member
The sad part is JJ is probably a better film maker than Gareth.
At least JJ for being budget Spielberg has human characters that imo care about or enjo watching for me Edwards have better spectacle but have flat and dull characters both Godzilla and Rouge one get criticism for it's characters
 

RyanW

Member
With Star Wars, everything is a "hot take" worthy of its own thread so that people can make the same arguments they've already made again.

These threads are all 100% obvious, blatant retreads. I wish someone would make a thread that would actually take some risks.

These threads are the TFA of Neogaf

ba dum tss
 

Kin5290

Member
Honestly Rogue One would have been a much better movie if, instead of being a movie following a cast of disposable archetypes as they investigate the backstory of a weakness in the Death Star that does not in any way need a backstory, it was a war flick about a squadron of X-Wing pilots in the vein of Season 1 of Battlestar Galactica.
 
Granted I've barely read any Star Wars argument on the internet for at least 10 years or so, but I figured this was a given. It's a better film in just about every way.
 
It's a risk in that if they kill their golden goose then they won't have that nostalgia padding to fall back on. Dredging up original trilogy stuff is risky in the same way that the Final Fantasy VII remake is.

You can keeps milking your cow, but if everyone's had their fill of milk –and the last glass they had made them sick– then you're left with a bunch of unsold, spoiling milk and you're just attempting to peddle shitty cheese.

giphy.gif
 

sphagnum

Banned
A big thing that shoots a planet destroying laser instead of a big thing that shoots a planet destroying laser.

It would have been neater since we are already introduced to it at the beginning of the movie and less people would've seen it as a Death Star rehash. We also would have gotten a proper space battle instead of another trench run.
 
It would have been neater since we are already introduced to it at the beginning of the movie and less people would've seen it as a Death Star rehash. We also would have gotten a proper space battle instead of another trench run.

The narrative would shift from what it is now to "another giant planet destroying weapon with another big space battle going on around it while people lightsaber fight inside the giant weapon" -- sound familiar?

And you say "another trench run" but again that was the climax of IV, and it was super brief in VII, intercutting with the actual climax, which completely unlike IV, was this amazing and gorgeous lightsaber duel in a snowy forest at night-- which the setting of Starkiller base lent us and something we had never seen before (despite being a 100% retread of IV).
 
It's a risk in that if they kill their golden goose then they won't have that nostalgia padding to fall back on. Dredging up original trilogy stuff is risky in the same way that the Final Fantasy VII remake is.

You can keeps milking your cow, but if everyone's had their fill of milk –and the last glass they had made them sick– then you're left with a bunch of unsold, spoiling milk and you're just attempting to peddle shitty cheese.

If star wars survived The Phantom Menance and Attack of the Clones, it can survive almost anything.
 

sphagnum

Banned
The narrative would shift from what it is now to "another giant planet destroying weapon with another big space battle going on around it while people lightsaber fight inside the giant weapon" -- sound familiar?

And you say "another trench run" but again that was the climax of IV, and it was super brief in VII, intercutting with the actual climax, which completely unlike IV, was this amazing and gorgeous lightsaber duel in a snowy forest at night-- which the setting of Starkiller base lent us and something we had never seen before (despite being a 100% retread of IV).

I'm fine sacrificing a nice location for a lightsaber fight if it means less SKB.

I'm mostly mad about the way they gimped the New Republic!
 

Surfinn

Member
2015-2017:

"TFA is a copy of ANH, it doesn't try anything new"

Preview thread for TLJ:

"Just me or is TLJ too different? Doesn't feel like SW"
 
Speaking of which, Han Solo selflessly attempting to appeal to his son's better nature and redeem him and being violently and fatally rejected is 100x darker than anything in Rogue One.

The dying stormtrooper putting his bloody hand on Finn's helmet is 100x darker than anything in Rouge One.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Gotta go with a lot of the same in this thread.

I liked Rogue One better, but neither are particularly strong films. Where it's been a slog to even think of rewatching again.
 
Does it or does it not involve the main villain using a lightsaber being used to kill the old mentor character inside a giant planet destroying weapon?

You've completely changed the conversation, though. What I was talking about has zilch to do with that.

Yes, that moment is somewhat a play on Vader killing Kenobi. I'm talking about a lightsaber duel, which in the conversation above, was my point that had the climax been on the Finalizer instead of Starkiller that the same nitpickery would aim at it being a retread of VI's climax, which involved a lightsaber duel happening inside the planet destroying weapon concurrently with a space battle.

sphagnum was saying that it would have lessened the number of people complaining about Starkiller or whatever being like IV's climax, but instead the same folks would take aim at that idea being a rip of VI's climax.

I'm fine sacrificing a nice location for a lightsaber fight if it means less SKB.

Fuck all that lol

I don't see how having it be the Finalizer would have made any good difference. It wouldn't have been nearly as visually satisfying. Starkiller was also a weapon built inside a planet, rather than a complete manmade facility, which I found cool.

Having it on the Finalizer would have been like the lightsaber fight with Dooku at the beginning of ROTS, or on the Death Star in VI, with that stuff happening and a space battle happening around it.

Starkiller is more unique than that, and the snowy forest at night was beautiful.
 

Greddleok

Member
Rogue One is literally one of the worst films I've ever seen. I was so bored through out the whole thing. The entire cast (or characters...it's hard to pin point which because the characters were so hollow) was entirely devoid of charisma. It barely makes sense as a movie too.

I had low expectations for both, and Force Awakens surpassed them. It's not my favourite movie by a long shot, but it was at least entertaining. Rogue One was tedium incarnate.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Rogue One is literally one of the worst films I've ever seen. I was so bored through out the whole thing. The entire cast (or characters...it's hard to pin point which because the characters were so hollow) was entirely devoid of charisma. It barely makes sense as a movie too.

I had low expectations for both, and Force Awakens surpassed them. It's not my favourite movie by a long shot, but it was at least entertaining. Rogue One was tedium incarnate.

Do you only watch the finest quality films or something?
 
TFA is clearly the better film. Rogue One might have been a great film if it were a heist film instead of some boring war movie with shitty characters.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Absolutely horrid script with cookie cutter characters.

Kylo Ren and Finn are a hundred times more interesting than anyone in that movie.

The script is far from horrid, imo, and I actually cared about the characters.

Still, I can't deny TFA's characters were better.
 
I cared about the characters enough for a standalone movie.

Of course they're going to try and have better characters in the new trilogy. They have to be interesting enough for at least three movies. Rogue One's characters were a one-off, but still likable to me.
 
You could keep going for days.

Why bother? Once that "TFA is a clone of ANH" thing took hold, it became internet fact. Never mind the fact that its themes are vastly different and much deeper; nevermind that its similarities are merely surface level similarities I'd imagine Kasdan, Abrams, and Arndt were purposely putting in place; nevermind it erased the stink of the prequels and made a good portion of the general public care about Star Wars again.

It was a retread and therefore also terrible.
 
I agree

Force Awaken was literally just playing off nostalgia while having a more non enticing plot and character interactions

I mean Rogue one can take out all the Darth Vader senses and it would be still way more interesting then the Force awakens

TFA did have a ton of spectacle though
 
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