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[dramatis]

My past understanding of Grant and Lee was shaped through some passing bits where Grant was portrayed as an alcoholic and one of the worst US presidents, while Lee was some dignified general. My history teachers did not go particularly deep into the characters in the history, so it wasn't like there was much taught. It wasn't until more recently when listening to WaPo's Presidential podcast series that a story from Grant's memoirs (considered to be one of the best presidential memoirs) was related in the podcast that showed from Grant's perspective what a dick Lee actually was.

At the Battle of Cold Harbor, there came a point in their fight where Grant wanted to let both sides go out and collect their wounded or dead, so he wrote a letter to Lee basically saying it might be a good idea during the times we're not shooting at each other to send some dudes out to pick up the wounded soldiers, and make sure these guys aren't shot at. Lee writes back a letter saying he's suspicious, so it would be better that when this thing happens that people hold the flag of truce. Grant says sure, he'll even throw in a specific time period to do it, and the specific area range in which his people would be picking up the wounded, so there would be minimal confusion among soldiers.

Lee sends back a letter saying that's not the way he wants it done. Grant just agrees to do it the way Lee wants. With the fussing from Lee about how he wanted it done, these letters wasted 48 hours and almost all of the wounded on the field died. These were not only Union soldiers; there were also Confederate soldiers that died because their general was picky.

In my opinion, that sort of general is really just garbage.

The Atlantic posted an article today detailing Lee's other failings as a human being. I knew very little about Lee and this was an enlightening brief historical lesson.

Lee was a slaveowner—his own views on slavery were explicated in an 1856 letter that it often misquoted to give the impression that Lee was some kind of an abolitionist. In the letter, he describes slavery as “a moral & political evil,” but goes on to explain that:

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.​

The argument here is that slavery is bad for white people, good for black people, and most importantly, it is better than abolitionism; emancipation must wait for divine intervention. That black people might not want to be slaves does not enter into the equation; their opinion on the subject of their own bondage is not even an afterthought to Lee.

Lee’s cruelty as a slavemaster was not confined to physical punishment. In Reading The Man, historian Elizabeth Brown Pryor’s portrait of Lee through his writings, Pryor writes that “Lee ruptured the Washington and Custis tradition of respecting slave families,” by hiring them off to other plantations, and that “by 1860 he had broken up every family but one on the estate, some of whom had been together since Mount Vernon days.” The separation of slave families was one of the most unfathomably devastating aspects of slavery, and Pryor wrote that Lee’s slaves regarded him as “the worst man I ever see.”

As the historian James McPherson recounts in Battle Cry of Freedom, in October of that same year, Lee proposed an exchange of prisoners with Union general Ulysses S. Grant. “Grant agreed, on condition that blacks be exchanged ‘the same as white soldiers.’” Lee’s response was that “negroes belonging to our citizens are not considered subjects of exchange and were not included in my proposition.” Because slavery was the cause for which Lee fought, he could hardly be expected to easily concede, even at the cost of the freedom of his own men, that blacks could be treated as soldiers and not things. Grant refused the offer, telling Lee that “Government is bound to secure to all persons received into her armies the rights due to soldiers.” Despite its desperate need for soldiers, the Confederacy did not relent from this position until a few months before Lee’s surrender.

There are former Confederates who sought redeem themselves—one thinks of James Longstreet, wrongly blamed by Lost Causers for Lee’s disastrous defeat at Gettysburg, who went from fighting the Union army to leading New Orleans’ integrated police force in battle against white supremacist paramilitaries. But there are no statues of Longstreet in New Orleans; there are no statues of Longstreet anywhere in the American South. Lee was devoted to defending the principle of white supremacy; Longstreet was not. This, perhaps, is why Lee was placed atop the largest Confederate monument at Gettysburg in 1917, but the 6’2” Longstreet had to wait until 1998 to receive a smaller-scale statue hidden in the woods that makes him look like a hobbit riding a donkey. It’s why Lee is remembered as a hero, and Longstreet is remembered as a disgrace.

More at the link.

 

[Matty77]

I think it all ties into the same perception war they won for years that allowed them to repackage traitorous slave owners as ancestors into "southern pride" and "heritage".

One more reason race relations are so fucked in this country.

 

[Shake Appeal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

 

[SJurgenson]

He was a top Confederate general -- a traitor of the highest order.

Calling him a dick is being too kind.

 

[WiiredShawn]

I honestly wasn't taught much about Lee and Grant in school, either, save for what was mentioned by the OP. However, having grown up in Texas, I am suspicious that educators wanted to -- unconsciously or deliberately -- frame Grant as an alcoholic in order to debase his domestic accomplishments regarding civil rights and trying to reinstate peace in the union.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Lee & others should have been executed in the field for treason. Reconstruction was botched big league.

 

[Flux]

Looks like a good read. I always found the revisionist history on Lee to spin the story that he was the most honourable, scholarly type, but reality tells a different perspective.

 

[MartyStu]

There was one particular historian in the 90s who pushed the entire 'Lee was not such a bad guy' image pretty hard. Hard enough to enter classrooms.

Also, Grant was actually kind of bad at being president.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Thanks for this. I'll be reading it later but hoping it spreads in the midst of people trying to turn the confederacy into heroes.

 

[Linkura]

I dunno, maybe it's because I grew up in New England, but I never got this impression. Would be curious to know where you had your schooling to get this impression, OP.

 

[ACR0019]

There was one particular historian in the 90s who pushed the entire 'Lee was not such a bad guy' image pretty hard. Hard enough to enter classrooms.

Also, Grant was actually kind of bad at being president.

Shelby Foote?

 

[Dishwalla]

But hey he got a sweet car named after him.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Pretty much everything about the Civil War is romanticized here in the south.

It's appalling.

 

[SillyEskimo]

Next our going to try and tell me that George Washington actually told a lie.

 

[zeemumu]

Reminds me of the Family Guy episode where they watch a Civil War reenactment in the south

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Lee made the losing South white folks feel better about themselves and is the main reason he is revered.

 

[L Thammy]

I randomly got an interest in the American Civil War maybe a year ago and read a little about Lee's views, but I must have forgot about the bit about slavery being worse for white people, and I didn't recall him being a slaveowner himself.

I do recall reading that he was abusive to slaves - I thought that they were owned by other people. My understanding had been that he intellectually recognized that slavery was a cruel institution, but made excuses because he benefited from it and had no actual desire to see it stopped. Excuses that allow him to forgive himself without actually helping anyone.

This seems to make him seem even worse, because he doesn't even seem to have enough level of decency to recognize the cruelty he participates in.



To be clear, I'm not saying that the article is wrong, I don't think it is. I'm just surprised that Lee seems to be even worse than I had understood him.

 

[EatinOlives]

Looks like a good read. I always found the revisionist history on Lee to spin the story that he was the most honourable, scholarly type, but reality tells a different perspective.

Yep, among some people I know here in Texas it's the go-to defense of the Confederacy. "Did you know Robert E. Lee was actually a kind, scholarly gentleman??? I bet you didn't learn THAT in your liberal college!!!!!"

 

[Kusagari]

Every presidency of the time period was full of corruption yet somehow it only came to define Grant while somehow overshadowing him being the only president for decades to try to guarantee minorities civil rights.

Can't help but think there was something at play there.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I dunno, maybe it's because I grew up in New England, but I never got this impression. Would be curious to know where you had your schooling to get this impression, OP.

I grew up in small town Texas and Lee was portrayed as a nobel gentlemen who was forced by honor to defend his people. Similarly, Stonewall Jackson was portrayed as a tactical genius and a great man.

They sort of cordoned off The Confederacy into two groups. There was a big amorphous Confederacy that was obviously bad, but any specific individual in the South who was talked about was an exception who was good and nobel.

We also learned that Sherman was an evil asshole who took things too far. It wasn't until I moved to a larger town for high school that I got a more realistic picture of the war.

 

[Sunster]

lol I went to a high school named after him.

 

[Linkura]

I grew up in small town Texas and Lee was portrayed as a nobel gentlemen who was forced by honor to defend his people. Similarly, Stonewall Jackson was portrayed as a tactical genius and a great man.

They sort of cordoned off The Confederacy into two groups. There was a big amorphous Confederacy that was obviously bad, but any specific individual in the South who was talked about was an exception who was good and nobel.

We also learned that Sherman was an evil asshole who took things too far. It wasn't until I moved to a larger town for high school that I got a more realistic picture of the war.

Yeah, I figure that a lot of what is taught in our schools' US history classes is much different depending on where the schools are located. This pretty much confirms it. There was no attempt to make anyone in the Confederacy seem good or noble in my classes.

 

[louiedog]

He was born in January. I know this because I knew a group of College Republicans who celebrated his birthday instead of MLK Jr. Day. But don't you dare call them racists!

 

[Magwik]

The gentleman Robert E Lee did everything he could to stop the war of northern aggression. Sad!

 

[Laieon]

Yep, among some people I know here in Texas it's the go-to defense of the Confederacy. "Did you know Robert E. Lee was actually a kind, scholarly gentleman??? I bet you didn't learn THAT in your liberal college!!!!!"

I hear things like this all the time, but as someone who grew up in the suburbs of Houston I must have just gotten lucky. I had great history teachers who never tried to defend the confederacy.

They were all pretty excited at the fact that we've never given Santa Anna back his leg though. We spent a lot more time on the Texas Revolution than we did the Civil War.

 

[Meowster]

I used to think the same about him but I don't know why that is because I know for a fact my APUSH teacher did not sing any roses for him. I think it might have been because I am in Missouri, on the border of Kansas, and some of those museums tend to lean one way more than the other. Missouri has a really weird and complicated relationship with the Civil War. I know better now though.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Yeah, I figure that a lot of what is taught in our schools' US history classes is much different depending on where the schools are located. This pretty much confirms it. There was no attempt to make anyone in the Confederacy seem good or noble in my classes.

Its interesting at my School in Ohio we wasn't actually taught anything about the civil war apart from North was a industrial powerhouse which squashed the technologial backwards south oh and right after the civil war a steam boat exploded killing a lot of people.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Pretty much everything about the Civil War is romanticized here in the south.

It's appalling.

Yeah, I figure that a lot of what is taught in our schools' US history classes is much different depending on where the schools are located. This pretty much confirms it. There was no attempt to make anyone in the Confederacy seem good or noble in my classes.

Yep. I was born and raised in Virginia, so we're pretty obviously going to be kind to Lee given that this is his home. That said, I recognize that I know almost nothing about him outside of what I learned in History classes in like, elementary school. You could tell me he ate babies and I wouldn't have a leg to stand on to dispute it, because I've never done any research on the man.

 

[Fancyarcher]

In my school in New England, we were taught that Lee wasn't such a good guy, and that he was defeated easily eventually or something.

Every presidency of the time period was full of corruption yet somehow it only came to define Grant while somehow overshadowing him being the only president for decades to try to guarantee minorities civil rights.

Can't help but think there was something at play there.

Grant was actually a great guy apparently, but he couldn't say no to his administration which was basically full of corrupt rich guys running off with the money.

 

[WiiredShawn]

The gentleman Robert E Lee did everything he could to stop the war of northern aggression. Sad!

It's sad how willing I am to believe this came directly from Trump's twitter. All it needs is a little "Crooked Grant" and "the failing Abe Lincoln".

 

[Lubricus]

"The Lost Cause" is still alive and well in Georgia.

THE STATE OF GEORGIA PROCLAIMS APRIL IS CONFEDERATE HISTORY AND HERITAGE MONTH AND CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL DAY ON APRIL 26.

(ATLANTA – May 24, 2016) Despite politically-correct attacks on Confederate monuments and symbols over the past year, the Sons of Confederate Veterans in Georgia have been continuing work on increasing the number of Confederate monuments across the state. The next such monument will be dedicated on Memorial Day on May 30th at 3:00 pm at 99 Courthouse Hill in Dahlonega.

http://gascv.org/

 

[npm0925]

I say keep these monuments up. But next to each one of them put one of a slave being beaten to death or raped.

 

[Chichikov]

Shelby Foote?

I rewatched Ken Burns' Civil War recently and man, he gives me the vibe of someone who meet you at a party and tries to carefully gauge how cool you are with a white person saying the n-word.

 

[L Thammy]

I say keep these monuments up. But next to each one of them put one of a slave being beaten to death or raped.

I'm assuming this is a joke, but I wouldn't be willing to expect the people who glorify Confederates to be as upset as they'd pretend to be with that.

Grant was actually a great guy apparently, but he couldn't say no to his administration which was basically full of corrupt rich guys running off with the money.

On the subject of how the Union leaders are great, can I take the opportunity to remind everyone that Abe Lincoln was a wrestler, is credited as the inventor of the chokeslam, and was once challenged to a sword duel? Now that's a heroic figure right there.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I rewatched Ken Burns' Civil War recently and man, he gives me the vibe of someone who meet you at a party and tries to carefully gauge how cool you are with a white person saying the n-word.

Foote is pretty notoriously derided by other historians as someone who has a lot of technically good history in his work but is absolutely trapped in his nonsensical Lost Cause filter.

 

[akira28]

I used to drive on a road named after him to get home every day.


They still love him down here. General Grant was a drunken corrupt bastard who cheated and defeated the South and also mistreated them, and he was the worst President ever, and General Lee was a kind philosopher warrior who took responsibility for the South when no one else was strong enough or wise enough to step up.

 

[CrocMother]

Just wondering do any other country worship a lost war, well a lot of its citizens?

Civil wars are different animals than wars between two separate nations.

 

[hobozero]

I dunno, maybe it's because I grew up in New England, but I never got this impression. Would be curious to know where you had your schooling to get this impression, OP.

You've never heard that General Lee is highly regarded, especially in the south?

I mean:

(not jokingly referring to the car - but the fact that the car was named after Lee, with affection, on a show that ran for 6 seasons on CBS and in syndication)

 

[ruxtpin]

Pretty much everything about the Civil War is romanticized here in the south.

It's appalling.

I can vouch for that. Thinking back on what I was taught about the Civil War in a private Baptist school in the Bible Belt ... the South was just misunderstood and wanted to do their own thing. Not the bad guys!

 

[tearsintherain]

Yeah, I think Lee being a kind (?) brilliant general is only a thing taught in southern schools. I only knew Lee was a general and Grant was his opponent in the midwest, we didn't learn anything about the people themselves. I don't think my kids schools taught anything at all about Lee in California.

 

[akira28]

This is why we'll be fighting the Civil War for another 100 years or more.

30% of the country thinks they're just waiting for a rematch, and another 20% doesn't give a shit and wants to break out the popcorn.

 

[antonz]

I have long joked that the Civil War in the only war in history where the losers got to write much of the history. When it comes to Grant in particular Southern Historians made sure to run his name through the shit as much as they could. Grant became the shitty drunk while Lee the noble man loyal to his state even if he didn't like the war

Grant was in over his head in areas for sure and the people he trusted to be upstanding members of his government were shit but the guy himself fought harder for civil rights etc. then pretty much any other President.

If Grant's work on Racial equality and rights etc. had been allowed to work unhindered and take hold this country could be a very different place. Grant was not afraid to use the Military to ensure protection for voter rights etc. He went after the KKK with a vengeance. In the end lots of people conspired against him and it probably set the country back at least 100 years in progress.

 

[dramatis]

I dunno, maybe it's because I grew up in New England, but I never got this impression. Would be curious to know where you had your schooling to get this impression, OP.

I was in NYC.

However, I had in high school (each line is a year)
World History
AP European History
AP US History

Then for senior year my social studies class was AP Microeconomics.

For AP US, we had to squeeze the whole thing in before May, when AP exams are. So we actually had even less time to cover all the subjects. Like I said, we ran through the history, but did not focus very hard on particular people and their biographies.

 

[Deepwater]

I say keep these monuments up. But next to each one of them put one of a slave being beaten to death or raped.

yeah, no.

 

[siddx]

Lee was a traitorous piece of shit, I've never heard him portrayed in a positive light in any of the historical texts I ever studied growing up, but I didn't go to school in the US so maybe that has something to do with it.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

At the Battle of Cold Harbor, there came a point in their fight where Grant wanted to let both sides go out and collect their wounded or dead, so he wrote a letter to Lee basically saying it might be a good idea during the times we're not shooting at each other to send some dudes out to pick up the wounded soldiers, and make sure these guys aren't shot at. Lee writes back a letter saying he's suspicious, so it would be better that when this thing happens that people hold the flag of truce. Grant says sure, he'll even throw in a specific time period to do it, and the specific area range in which his people would be picking up the wounded, so there would be minimal confusion among soldiers.

Lee sends back a letter saying that's not the way he wants it done. Grant just agrees to do it the way Lee wants. With the fussing from Lee about how he wanted it done, these letters wasted 48 hours and almost all of the wounded on the field died. These were not only Union soldiers; there were also Confederate soldiers that died because their general was picky.

In my opinion, that sort of general is really just garbage.

This isn't quite how it went. Grant repeatedly refused to have his men bear "a flag of truce" because it would be conceding defeat (note that bearing white flags =/= offering a white flag of truce ). It's mostly just a couple days of Lee trying to get Grant to admit defeat, and Grant trying to avoid having to acknowledge a rather humiliating defeat, followed by a couple days of confusion thanks to primitive communication. It's not quite as cut-and-dry as "Lee's being a dick while good guy Grant just wants to save lives."

Outside of that, Lee was a scumbag.

edit:

To clarify, the rules of war at the time dictated that the losing side sends a flag of truce to the victors and request a ceasefire to collect the dead and wounded. Grant didn't want to concede defeat (even though the attack had been a disaster and he was indeed defeated), and so requested instead some sort of informal thing where both sides collect their wounded when they aren't actively fighting, to which Lee said that idea was stupid and asked for the customary flag of truce. Grant ignored Lee's letter and instead demanded an informal totally-not-a-truce where they collect their dead and wounded between 12PM and 3PM. Lee again said that he would agree to no such thing unless Grant agreed to an official ceasefire and gave him a formal flag of truce. Grant finally caved, agreed to a formal ceasefire, and gave him his flag of truce. Several days had passed by that point, and then it took a couple more for them to actually coordinate their schedules. By that time, basically all the wounded had died.

tl;dr: Grant used his wounded men as hostages to try and finesse his way out of conceding defeat.

 

[Dishwalla]

I used to drive on a road named after him to get home every day.


They still love him down here. General Grant was a drunken corrupt bastard who cheated and defeated the South and also mistreated them, and he was the worst President ever, and General Lee was a kind philosopher warrior who took responsibility for the South when no one else was strong enough or wise enough to step up.

I'm more surprised there are so many roads named after John C. Calhoun. Guy was appalling yet there are roads named after him everywhere down here.

 

[Ogodei]

I was in NYC.

However, I had in high school (each line is a year)
World History
AP European History
AP US History

Then for senior year my social studies class was AP Microeconomics.

For AP US, we had to squeeze the whole thing in before May, when AP exams are. So we actually had even less time to cover all the subjects. Like I said, we ran through the history, but did not focus very hard on particular people and their biographies.

My 7-12 highschool did this:

7: US History before 1900
8: One semester of US History after 1900 plus a whole year of Geography.
9: World History
10: US History Before 1900
11: US History After 1900
12: AP Government (advanced class): Civics (general class).

So 10 and 11 were retreads of 7 and 8, but 8 was truncated to get some foreign languages in before letting people pick Spanish or French by grade 9.

 

[theignoramus]

I say keep these monuments up. But next to each one of them put one of a slave being beaten to death or raped.

Ostentatious monuments of Black people being humiliated, emasculated, and ground to dust? Yeah, no. Put that in the a museum where it belongs.

Anyway, we need HBO to do a whole series on President Grant, his image needs restoration in the public eye. Even LBJ's administration didnt go after White supremacist militancy the way Grant did. Grant understood better than any US president that there were certain breeds of men that needed to be met with extreme violence. Men for which diplomacy and political engagement would never work.

 

[theignoramus]

Just wondering do any other country worship a lost war, well a lot of its citizens?

Maybe Russian pro-monarchists.