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[Dice//]

Very interesting point. I wonder how different the art world would be if the classic painters had chosen not push boundaries or paint nudes for fear of offending the sensibilities of their day. Why is it okay for the art world and not video games?

Wait, are you telling me renaissance art loved and respected women and didn't see them sexually?

Let me remind you, women's suffrage is ONLY 100 years old. Who the fuck would listen to arguments about 'objectified women' in ANY classical age??

It's still art, but there's some real piss poor idea of how art has changed over the years, or the idea of how females are viewed laaaargeellllyy and so freeeeqquueently sexually... it's honestly annoying.

Honestly I'd expect the usually liberal GAF to have a better response to this but I guess when well liked games and franchises are involved things are different.

I watched SFV top 8 with my gf and she said she enjoyed it a lot more than she expected to, as the game was really easy to understand and had more flash than Melee (which is my favorite fighting game). She specifically pointed out the outfits of all the female characters other than Chun Li though and said she thought it was bullshit that women have to suck it up and put up with female characters being explicitly designed for the male gaze if they want to play the game, not to mention the really toxic environment for women in the community. We both agreed that the fact that every tournament is a sausage fest regardless of what game is being hosted is indicative of a problem that should be attacked from all sides, but the only way that can happen is if the game to begin with creates a better experience for women to enjoy without feeling alienated.

Seriously. Just fess up that you like sexy designs, I honestly get annoyed by people here trying to justify it or rationalize how SF is just being "sporty" or some bullshit about its designs.

If men had NEARLY as many tit/ass shots my jaw would nearly fall off from the face I make.

 

[trixx]

Find it hilarious either way. People get pissed because ESPN/Disney is censoring.

Like idgaf I want to see the gameplay. Never cared about video game boobs anyways

 

[Sami+]

Find it hilarious either way. People get pissed because ESPN/Disney is censoring.

Like idgaf I want to see the gameplay. Never cared about video game boobs anyways

Frankly my main takeaway from this thread is that a shocking number of fighting game enthusiasts seem to REALLY care about video game tits and ass.

 

[Lyte Edge]

We both agreed that the fact that every tournament is a sausage fest regardless of what game is being hosted is indicative of a problem that should be attacked from all sides, but the only way that can happen is if the game to begin with creates a better experience for women to enjoy without feeling alienated.

I don't think that some character and outfit designs are what greatly contribute to this genre having more male players involved, particular on the tournament scene.

 

[Kinyou]

Annoying to see so many 'Americans are prudes' comments on Neogaf. Is this the new 'men are sexualized too' response?

Considering the OP is demanding to remove fanservice because one american tv channel complained I don't find that response surprising at all. Maybe fanservice should be toned down, but not because one channel asked for it.

 

[Puruzi]

Frankly my main takeaway from this thread is that a shocking number of fighting game enthusiasts seem to REALLY care about video game tits and ass.

video game tits and ass is pretty good

 

[Spaced Harrier]

... And that's why I haven't entered the Tournament scene and won't until Capcom do...

Sure it is.

 

[MoonFrog]

Why, though? Why is the natural evolution of fighting games softcore porn? Why should every fighting game have sexual pandering? It's just, even though I'm gay, I wouldn't like it if all males in fighting games were overly sexualized strippers - that'd suck! I don't want to bang Dhalsim FFS.

Yeah. I sympathize with this. I'm a straight man and I do like some fanservice in games but past a certain point (which is hard to define, so that's a sticking point) it just becomes tasteless and unattractive to look at (for me, which is another way what I'm saying is problematic).

I don't think the answer is simply to do the same to men. I think, rather, the answer is to rein in the general tendency of female designs to over-indulge, and, yes, throw some bones to people wanting to look at men too, but not to push everything to an extreme, garish level of sexualization in either case. To me that sounds dystopian.

And, of course, to maintain variation character to character, some with more of a fan service spin, some with more of a "wow so cool/so badass" and such spin. (And to do this with women too).

 

[mollipen]

She specifically pointed out the outfits of all the female characters other than Chun Li though and said she thought it was bullshit that women have to suck it up and put up with female characters being explicitly designed for the male gaze if they want to play the game, not to mention the really toxic environment for women in the community.

I'm curious: are you and/or she saying the community is "really toxic" because you have direct experience with it being so, or because someone told you/you've heard that was true?

 

[DrArchon]

Considering the OP is demanding to remove fanservice because one american tv channel complained I don't find that response surprising at all. Maybe fanservice should be toned down, but not because one channel asked for it.

Hey man, I ain't demanding anything. Capcom can do whatever it wants. Plenty of fighters make money off of fanservice. Look at DOA. I just know that if Capcom keeps this up it'll keep running into problems trying to push its games into the mainstream, which it clearly wants because it keeps trying to do so.

I just figure Capcom can't have its cake and eat it too. They can't have crazy camera shots zooming into Cammy's ass crack and still expect their game to show up on ESPN without some complications.

 

[Sami+]

I don't think that some character and outfit designs are what greatly contribute to this genre having more male players involved, particular on the tournament scene.

I disagree. Obviously there are numerous factors of varying importance, but on the ground level the first impression to new players needs to be good. The fact that every single one of these games have a plethora of cool and visually interesting male character designs that aren't explicitly sexed up, while female designs don't have nearly as much variation, is part of that first impression.

The camera also plays just as big a part though. Cammy's ult ending with a zoom in slow mo on her crotch is embarrassing.

 

[cordy]

I find it funny how since SFV released we've seen people say it's all about the gameplay and and whatnot but yet when it comes to how these characters are dressed in an esports competition that's where the line's drawn. Shit's crazy in this thread.

 

[FLAguy954]

Three words: Female beach volleyball

This isn't unique to videogames. Acting as if normal sports don't pull this shit is silly

Actually four words: Women's track and field (goddamn)

 

[kirblar]

It's insane how many people can't separate male gaze and attractiveness.

Having attractive characters is fine. Deliberately zooming in on their chests and butts isn't. Guys will make fanart like that for you anyway.

Women wearing tight clothes isn't the issue. If you think it is you are completely missing the point.

 

[trixx]

Frankly my main takeaway from this thread is that a shocking number of fighting game enthusiasts seem to REALLY care about video game tits and ass.

Yeah the thread is in conjunction with the average viewer of fighting games because twitter was throwing a fit about it. Like seriously, Kazunoko whooped Du's ass and you care about the censoring of the clothing.

 

[Chessr]

Ban sexy outfits in tournaments and Call it a day.

 

[Sami+]

I'm curious: are you and/or she saying the community is "really toxic" because you have direct experience with it being so, or because someone told you/you've heard that was true?

I go to tournaments to play and spectate, I'm on my local PR, and I have friends who have been creeped on yes. It's common to see like 90% of all the girls in the whole venue grouping up just on the basis that they're female.

I also see a lot of bullshit on Twitter, because I follow people from the community.

 

[kirblar]

Yeah the thread is in conjunction with the average viewer of fighting games because twitter was throwing a fit about it. Like seriously, Kazunoko whooped Du's ass and you care about the censoring of the clothing.

He got iced after winning R1 and lost R2 tho. That's where the outrage was really from.

 

[Nephtes]

I find it funny how since SFV released we've seen people say it's all about the gameplay and and whatnot but yet when it comes to how these characters are dressed in an esports competition that's where the line's drawn. Shit's crazy in this thread.

For some people maybe.
Some of us have been complaining about the over sexualization and objectification of the female cast of SFV since before the game was released. Go back to the Laura and Mika reveal threads... It was a shit show of digital T&A defenders...

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Considering the OP is demanding to remove fanservice because one american tv channel complained I don't find that response surprising at all. Maybe fanservice should be toned down, but not because one channel asked for it.

Yeah. I mean there's certainly a broader, more complicated discussion that's been going on for years and will continue to go on that is related to this topic but admittedly isn't really the crux of this particular issue. I honestly think an interim solution is perfectly doable in the short term for concerns like these.

 

[Sami+]

It's insane how many people can't separate male gaze and attractiveness.

Having attractive characters is fine. Deliberately zooming in on their chests and butts isn't. Guys will make fanart like that for you anyway.

Women wearing tight clothes isn't the issue. If you think it is you are completely missing the point.

What's even worse is people literally objectifying female athletes by comparing their sports wear to fighting game character designs specifically drawn to be titillating for straight men.

It's ok for Cammy to wear a leotard that flaunts get bare ass because female volleyball players wear sports bras?? 😧😧

 

[cordy]

For some people maybe.
Some of us have been complaining about the over sexualization and objectification of the female cast of SFV since before the game was released. Go back to the Laura and Mika reveal threads... It was a shit show of digital T&A defenders...

Yeah I remember and it was bad then too. I still remember when they had Mika throw on that alt costume the other year.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

I go to tournaments to play and spectate, I'm on my local PR, and I have friends who have been creeped on yes. It's common to see like 90% of all the girls in the whole venue grouping up just on the basis that they're female.

I also see a lot of bullshit on Twitter, because I follow people from the community.

The actual fighting game community or the smash community?

 

[Producer]

capcom just needs to make a normal alt for laura, and make / bring back a pants alt for cammy. Problem solved

 

[Sami+]

The actual fighting game community or the smash community?

I play Smash but I'm talking about both. It's not like we don't share venues.

 

[Ninjimbo]

I fail to see how a thong is holding fighting games back from the "mainstream". People have put up with far worse just to get some entertainment. If SFV's Top 8 can't get you interested in watching fighting games, nothing ever will.

Dressing up your characters in business attire isn't going to do squat.

 

[Kadey]

...Or people want their fictional characters to have more variety in outfits and to not just be eye candy for various legitimate reasons reasons

" OH no someone wants cammy to put on pants, we must be going backwards in society, its not like female characters have been sexuality objectified in such ways for decades and people asking for them to not do that might mean that society is moving forward with the idea that not every female character in something needs to be that, and can exists for other reasons. And can have the varitey that male designs have"

Like seriously fucking what?

Oh man batgirls new less sexualized outfits in comics, putting us back decades. Man MK making a bunch of actual legit female designs in X and treating their female characters like actual characters, we Must be on some stone age shit. What is this fictional world you live in where some characters getting more varied outfits means we have gone backwards in some regards.

Blah blah blah blah. Cry some more. Global warming. All clothes must come off!

 

[Spaced Harrier]

I play Smash but I'm talking about both. It's not like we don't share venues.

Here we share venues, and there's next to no overlap between them.
Their behaviour is... ehh a bit different than the rest ofus too.

I still haven't figured them out to be honest.

 

[Puruzi]

I fail to see how a thong is holding fighting games back from the "mainstream". People have put up with far worse just to get some entertainment. If SFV's Top 8 can't get you interested in watching fighting games, nothing ever will.

Dressing up your characters in business attire isn't going to do squat.

yeah the whole idea that having less fanservicey designs will make it more mainstream is laughable imo

you either like watching fighting games or you don't

 

[nillapuddin]

I started looking up guilty gear videos when i found out they were making dbfz, the last character they introduced, bla-(something idk). Some woman with enormous enormous breasts and they were all over the place.. I was pretty surprised. I dont know what this ' Laura' looks like, but i imagine something similar.

Tbf, the dudes are all jacked outta their mind and showing off their bodies also, just not as lewd i guess because we have less stuff to show off?

(i dont know all the costumes and designs for sfv)

 

[Steve Youngblood]

yeah the whole idea that having less fanservicey designs will make it more mainstream is laughable imo

you either like watching fighting games or you don't

I think it's fair to debate just how much of an impact specific moves are going to grow the fanbase. But given the growth of esports viewership this does not seem like a very well thought out observation. "You either like watching it or you don't?" This doesn't really seem to be based in any sort of a reality. Every year more and more people are being introduced to the competitive scene of various different titles and more and more companies are getting in on esports. New sets of eyes are constantly being exposed. Plenty of people don't know if they like watching SFV Top 8 EVO play.

 

[Puruzi]

I think it's fair to debate just how much of an impact specific moves are going to grow the fanbase. But given the growth of esports viewership this does not seem like a very well thought out observation. "You either like watching it or you don't?" This doesn't really seem to be based in any sort of a reality.

I don't think people that don't really care about watching esports right now are going to want to because some female characters are showing less skin

 

[kirblar]

I started looking up guilty gear videos when i found out they were making dbfz, the last character they introduced, bla-(something idk). Some woman with enormous enormous breasts and they were all over the place.. I was pretty surprised. I dont know what this ' Laura' looks like, but i imagine something similar.

Tbf, the dudes are all jacked outta their mind and showing off their bodies also, just not as lewd i guess because we have less stuff to show off?

(i dont know all the costumes and designs for sfv)

It's not as lewd because they're not zooming and highlighting sexualized areas (no one is looking at Ryu's ass in close-ups in game.)

For half the population, their brain does not lock on and target these areas on women when they see them. So when the camera in-game is doing this for them, as though they were a straight guy, it is off-putting.

 

[Ouren]

 

[nillapuddin]

It's not as lewd because they're not zooming and highlighting sexualized areas (no one is looking at Ryu's ass in close-ups in game.)

For half the population, their brain does not lock on and target these areas on women when they see them. So when the camera in-game is doing this for them, as though they were a straight guy, it is off-putting.

Is the camera doing this often for like special attacks and stuff, or just intro/outro?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I don't think people that don't really care about watching esports right now are going to want to because some female characters are showing less skin

Maybe. Maybe not. But it's just lazy to act as though "I like sexy female characters so this is clearly unimportant to the mainstream." It would be just as lazy for me to say "I want less overly sexy characters so I'm going to manufacture mainstream strawmen to make this into a bigger deal than it is."

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Is this not a weigh-in promo picture? I'm honestly not sure what the takeaway of posting this is supposed to be.

Also, I'm sure you found this via some google search or something and didn't know the source, but I can't help but laugh at the fact that this came from returnofkings.com

 

[kirblar]

Is the camera doing this often for like special attacks and stuff, or just intro/outro?

Super freezes for KOs, intros/outros. Sometimes zooms on cinematic specials.

A good example of "Not Male Gaze" is Karin. Her default outfit is very conservative. But when you put her in a bikini through one of the Alt costumes, there isn't a problem because there's absolutely no male gaze going on w/ how she's treated by the camera. They treated her the same way they'd treat Zangief.

 

[Ouren]

What is most concerning is that this ESPN guy was turned on while watching EVO and felt guilty enough about it to ask them to cover her up.

 

[Ouren]

Is this not a weigh-in promo picture? I'm honestly not sure what the takeaway of posting this is supposed to be.

Also, I'm sure you found this via some google search or something and didn't know the source, but I can't help but laugh at the fact that this came from returnofkings.com

i literally have no idea what return of kings is.
Yea, it's a promo picture, but if it made sense to fight in that stuff and if it magically stayed on like in videogames, more people would dress flashy

 

[Nephtes]

yeah the whole idea that having less fanservicey designs will make it more mainstream is laughable imo

you either like watching fighting games or you don't

It's not about what will make fighting games main stream, but what will make fighting games more approachable for people who aren't straight males.

Street Fighter came out when I was 6.
Street Fighter II came out when I was 9.

I played those games in the arcade at those ages.

There was nothing specifically in them that was sexually overt. I mean, the only female playable character was Chun Li and she was quite covered. There was nothing objectionable in those games (except maybe the Last Vegas showgirls in Boxer's stage)

If I had a 6 year old or a 9 year old girl or even a boy, I wouldn't let them close to Street Fighter IV or Street Fighter V. That's not the kind of female representation someone that young needs to be exposed to.

And that's upsetting to me because Street Fighter, before V, has been one of my favorite franchises. A game I would like to share with the next generation... But shit... Not till they're adults with the kind of content on display...

I don't know how SFV gets a teen rating from the ESRB anymore.

 

[ProgenitorCastle]

hOLY SHITTTTT LMAOOOO

 

[SimonM7]

It's insane how many people can't separate male gaze and attractiveness.

Having attractive characters is fine. Deliberately zooming in on their chests and butts isn't. Guys will make fanart like that for you anyway.

Women wearing tight clothes isn't the issue. If you think it is you are completely missing the point.

This.

Fighting games, and broadly speaking a lot of games stuck in a 90s mentality about who they're for, usually need to change their attitude to their motifs rather than the motifs themselves.

Having the game shove your face into someone's butt, then spin around and shove your face down their cleavage is where you're truly being reductive to your characters and your players. You're making a lot of shitty assumptions about what the characters and their physical attributes mean to your players that you cannot chalk up to "characterisation".

It is ultimately unfortunate that the guy-centric mentality shines through in such a prevalent way, and, for instance, the very design premise of the recently announced Abigale would NEVER IN A BILLION YEARS be applied to a female character. I challenge anyone to find an example of a female character that isn't designed to be essentially "attractive" for every... like... 20 male characters that are *made* to be comically off-putting. What's even the point of making a female character if they're not attractive! But it is what it is. That's not exclusive to fighting games or even games. It's not like the titular Beauty of Beauty and The Beast would ever be the guy. Who would be interested in a beast lady? That's *crazy*!

But as a basic rule of thumb: If your game actually is for everyone, regardless of what your characters are wearing, don't treat your entire audience like they're straight men. That's.... mmmmassively simple to remember, really.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

i literally have no idea what return of kings is.
Yea, it's a promo picture, but if it made sense to fight in that stuff and if it magically stayed on like in videogames, more people would dress flashy

I could be wrong, but though dressing flashy for a promo picture might be part of it, isn't the point here just to wear as little clothing as possible to make the weigh in? I sort of gathered that some people would probably show up naked to weigh in if it would help them successfully make the cut.

(I'm admittedly not an MMA guru though I have been and on-and-off casual fan.)

 

[Anth0ny]

Someone should make one of these for Chun:

Chun's design was always sexualized but only became cringe for me with SFV and the F-cup breasts and super blatant male gaze stuff (See: character select screen pose lol)

 

[SimonM7]

Someone should make one of these for Chun:




Chun's design was always sexualized but only became cringe for me with SFV and the F-cup breasts and super blatant male gaze stuff (See: character select screen pose lol)

Yeah, SC4 and SF5 both went ssssuper aggressive with this stuff. I really dunno why. It's like they figured they had to lean into it more to make a bigger splash, but I've zero insight into the actual design philosophy behind those moves.

 

[mollipen]

I go to tournaments to play and spectate, I'm on my local PR, and I have friends who have been creeped on yes. It's common to see like 90% of all the girls in the whole venue grouping up just on the basis that they're female.

I also see a lot of bullshit on Twitter, because I follow people from the community.

That's really a shame. I obviously know some of the things that have happened, and having ties to the community to various degrees for 20+ years now, I'd never say there aren't problems.

My own experiences, however, have been really positive for the most part. I've had a few funny cases of guys trying to explain things to me I've long known, or really not take me seriously at all until they see if I can play, but one of the things I love about the FGC over a lot of other gaming communities is that if you CAN play, it's easier to earn respect, and I think it becomes more a question of what your skill is and not who you are as a person.

So yeah, there are definitely problems, but it's still a community I'd encourage other female players to try to be a part of—definitely more than some others.

 

[The Lone Dragon]

Then you also have the option to just... dress them more conservatively if you so choose

where in street fighter, there is little variation, and you have to pay 4 bucks a pop for... more sexy costumes...horray...

There is plenty of variety in SF5 costumes.

Karin, Juri, Chun, Mika, Cammy, Kolin, Ibuki all have "less fanservicey" costumes you can use. And, many of them are unlockable for free if not a default. (note that most, if not all skirt/dress costumes have the women wearing shorts underneath).

Laura's battle costume is fanservicey, but it looks like actual fighting gear, so oh well.

There was nothing specifically in them that was sexually overt. I mean, the only female playable character was Chun Li and she was quite covered. There was nothing objectionable in those games (except maybe the Last Vegas showgirls in Boxer's stage)

Lol, do you not remember Cammy in SSF2?

 

[big_erk]

I'm at work and I'm not about to go and look for old WWF images, but those outfits are pretty tame compared to what some of them used to wear and the cut of their trunks are often lower than what the guys wear, with some exceptions. Before the PG era, there used to be bra and panties matches, thongs, and lots of shorts crammed up butts.

Sable from the halcyon days of the WWF.

 

[Laiza]

Man, I am so damn tired of the same bullshit in these threads.

"Oh you're just a prude" - no, I actually look at lots of sexy stuff (and by that I mean actual porn) on a daily basis. That argument has no place here. I'm fucking sick and tired of seeing this repeated ad nauseum every time this topic comes up.

Look, the reason I don't like it is because it's sexist, and also, btw, nudity barely has anything to do with sex despite what society may have taught you. Exposed human skin is not sexuality, it is not a display of sexuality, it's just the display of human flesh for the sake of straight male libidos at the expense of actual characterization. It's nonsense.

Doesn't help that they have this annoying tendency to give every female character the same overly sexualized body type, and it's not a body type patterned after actual female fighters, oh no! Yeah, sure, the male fighters are over-the-top, but they get to pack tons of muscle while the female fighters only get the suggestion of muscle? There's no equality here, folks. If they exaggerated the bodies of actual female MMA fighters we wouldn't even be having this conversation (and Laura wouldn't have those stupid pornstar boobs, for that matter).

Always the same shit. Always me repeating myself ad nauseum because people just don't read and listen. I'm so damn tired, man.