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Vehicle plows into counter protesters in Charlottesville

N

Not

Banned
The Wart said:
And no, private citizens assaulting other private citizens is not analogous to fighting the German army in WW2.
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I think the "context of war" philosophy is some GRADE. A. BULLSHIT.

Violence is violence. People's lives are extinguished either way.
 
T

The Kree

Banned
The Wart said:
... Are people in this thread actually advocating for vigilante violence? Are people seriously getting dogpiled for suggesting that it is a bad idea to go out on the street and assault people you think are Nazis? And people think that this will end well?

And no, private citizens assaulting other private citizens is not analogous to fighting the German army in WW2.
Click to expand...

It's not vigilantism. It's self defense. Self defense is a very good idea.

Do you have a better idea, because the law is failing us right now and the people we employ to make the laws are on the side of the Nazis, so...?
 
N

Not

Banned
Albino_Yeti said:
Why do people keep saying this? Every time there's a terrorist attack by an ISIS member in a western country they always find their brother mother father uncle or whatever.
Click to expand...

And use quotes about how they never saw it coming, and how sweet and normal he seemed? Huh. Wonder why that didn't cross the empathy barrier for the kill-all-Muslims corps.
 
V

VariantX

Member
Albino_Yeti said:
Why do people keep saying this? Every time there's a terrorist attack by an ISIS member in a western country they always find their brother mother father uncle or whatever.
Click to expand...

And then they say something along the lines of, "why didn't you report so-and-so when he/she showed these tendencies?" When a brown or black person does something, the whole damn group of individuals surrounding the offender is held responsible.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Sony said:
Then ironically, you're the one that doesn't get it. I never said that Nazi's should be appeased. I said that you shouldn't play judge, jury and executioner and seek out Nazi's by yourself and assault them.

Honestly, the accusation of you and other that I'm some sort of Nazi sypathizer is disgusting.
Click to expand...

You probably need to try and add a bit more meat to your arguments. See below for a generic 'legal response' to "I'm going to go and attack/kill some Nazis". Because it's lacking in compassion it will understandably rile people up, just keep that in mind... People are raw in the wake of an attack and feeling a lot of anger, upset, frustration and despair. To many, it will feel like you're playing contrarian to wind them up (the violence is NEVER the answer angle), but there are undeniable facts about operating within the law as a civilian and not having yourself liable to face arrest/jail time for violence.

While you live in America under the 1st amendment without any Government/bill level changes getting made it will indeed be you who goes to jail if you attack/kill someone and then say "I read on their Facebook page they were a member of the KKK and a white supremacist, then I tracked them down to a rally and attacked". That won't be counted as self-defence, not unless it can be shown without doubt they were going to attack you (yes I know the argument of "it's their ideology to wipe me out", but as a legal matter intent to action needs to be proven). Which is why you need Government level shutdowns of extremism and terrorism like in other countries. I tried to highlight how we have this in the UK, and in the UK, no, you as a civilian cannot go with intent to harm and attack a hate preacher and then claim self-defence. If pre-determined motive can be proven it impacts on your self-defence plea as well.

There is a legal discussion to be had here, which may lead to frustration as it isn't the emotional response many might be looking for. It's not about stopping anyone else doing whatever they want, but rightfully pointing out the consequences of actions whether you think they are moral or not whilst you live in America. You need your Government's framework sorted out to really crush extremism, and yes, this is why many are at wits ends because the Government isn't changing things/acting and the people are left wondering what they can do.
Click to expand...

If someone wants to respond to you with fuck the consequences, then all you can really do is leave them be. It's probably just expressing anger and frustration, but if they do actually go out of their home and do anything they are responsible for the consequences they face. Not you. Most people posting understandably rarely say "I'm going to do x", just generic responses they want Nazis put down. As direct "I'm going to..." can get them in hot water for expressing intent, and yes, most people don't actually want their lives to be "over" by going to prison. Instead, it's more a case of "I maybe won't do it, but I won't be upset if someone else does".

All of this is ultimately happening due to where America currently is. You have to be honest and simply accept neo-Nazis walking around with assault rifles in other countries would not be tolerated or accepted. It's just not alright it can happen in America.
 
Z

ZeoVGM

Banned
Was just told on Facebook that Trump was right in saying this was "both sides" as both white supremacists and antifa have been violent "the past few months."

I can't.
 
H

Heroman

Banned
All these people arguing about use of violence or non-violence. Who the fuck cares what you or other people does as long as we are combatting white supremacy and Nazism in America and the world. So if you're on team nonviolent I better see you walking down the street everyday in protest and twice a day when they are having there rallies and if you're team violence you better be at the gym everyday training to punch a Nazi in the face.
 
N

Not

Banned
ZeoVGM said:
Was just told on Facebook that Trump was right in saying this was "both sides" as both white supremacists and antifa have been violent "the past few months."

I can't.
Click to expand...

I just can't put my finger on why, but I just feel like these white Americans who speak English may have a point about killing all other races we're just not seeing?

Surprise. We're animals. All violence is wrong... when it's against my pack.

Bam Bam Baklava said:
This has actually happened many times.
Click to expand...

That wasn't disbelief. Read the next sentence in that post.
 
S

stryker1138

Member
We should definitely rake over the coals anyone who isn't yet ready to discard the rule of law in favor of a tempest of vigilantism. Yep. That's definitely the best way to build and sustain a coalition to protect civil liberties.
 
T

The Wart

Member
bananas said:
Think are Nazis, no.

Nazis that make themselves known and start spouting their garbage and hate, yes.
Click to expand...

Well that certainly doesn't sound like it would spiral out of control and have unintended consequences!

I honestly can't tell to what extent people are angry and venting and to what extent they are actually advocating for large-scale organized violence.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
This has actually happened many times.
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This is usually the case for any civilian who goes off to commit violence, unless they already had a history of petty crime. The remarkable stories are the people who are normal until they're not (and even then the signs were usually there, but the assumption of being normal led people to discount them).
 
S

Slackbladder

Member
fluffydelusions said:
This game can't come soon enough
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It's the next Far Cry that I'm more interested in -
ubicom-fc5-game_info-naked_boxshot-560x698_290048.jpg
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Just hope there's someone in the game with a silver/black Dodge Challenger we can shoot. (There won't be obviously - real cars don't appear in these games).
Yes, the game has a religious cult-y kinda' story but we all know what it's also showing.

It's been posted that the driver was seen pictured at the "rally" with a group who call themselves "Vanguard America"? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/13/charlottesville-james-fields-charged-with-was-pictured-at-neo-nazi-rally-vanguard-america
 
B

bananas

Banned
The Wart said:
Well that certainly doesn't sound like it would spiral out of control and have unintended consequences!

I honestly can't tell to what extent people are angry and venting and to what extent they are actually advocating for large-scale organized violence.
Click to expand...
I guess you're right, these Nazis would've been completely peaceful if we just left them alone. It's not like anything that has happened in the LAST 24 HOURS WOULD DISPROVE THIS THEORY OF YOURS.
 
T

The Kree

Banned
The Wart said:
Well that certainly doesn't sound like it would spiral out of control and have unintended consequences!

I honestly can't tell to what extent people are angry and venting and to what extent they are actually advocating for large-scale organized violence.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the Nazis or the rest of us?

I feel like you should be talking about the Nazis, but something tells me you're not, and that worries me.
 
A

Albino_Yeti

Member
VariantX said:
And then they say something along the lines of, "why didn't you report so-and-so when he/she showed these tendencies?" When a brown or black person does something, the whole damn group of individuals surrounding the offender is held responsible.
Click to expand...
Not said:
And use quotes about how they never saw it coming, and how sweet and normal he seemed? Huh. Wonder why that didn't cross the empathy barrier for the kill-all-Muslims corps.
Click to expand...
I wasn't arguing about whether they are conducted the same way, I was just stating that the media does interview ISIS family members just like this Nazi guys family members.
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
While it's certainly cathartic seeing a Nazi saluter get punched in the face, it's also concerning to see people calling for more attacks without any coherent social policy or legal authority behind it, and at the same time not making a distinction between self-defense and proactive or preemptive violence (and in some cases intentionally conflating the two). So, I have two questions:

1) Are you for punching non-violent Nazis in the face without adapting free speech laws (similar to Germany's)? Or are you also advocating that we re-examine free speech laws to outlaw certain speech that is unequivocally objectionable? Because if it's the former, you're now advocating for something that is illegal, to stop something that is legal. How is that a coherent and sustainable policy? You'll notice that Germans don't have to punch Nazis who perform public demonstrations, because they get arrested.

2) Are you suggesting that MLK was wrong about...everything? Because that is the implication. If not, how do you reconcile the two?
 
N

Not

Banned
The Wart said:
Well that certainly doesn't sound like it would spiral out of control and have unintended consequences!
Click to expand...

What is really the worst fucking outcome here in your eyes of snuffing out all Nazism, and Nazism alone? We become like modern Germany? Horrors.

Or somehow white people are rounded up and put in camps "just" because they wanted to round everyone else up and put them in camps? Aww, poor guys. Also, give me a hit of whatever that is.
 
G

Garlador

Member
It is the duty and responsibility of anyone belonging to the human race to stand up for the weak and oppressed against any tide of bigotry and hatred.

Easy to say, right? Harder to put into action.

Well, here’s a start.

Call your local senators, representatives, and state officials. Let them know you are NOT okay with this. Their contact info is PUBLIC information.

If you live in a state that is “right-leaning” this carries far more weight. I’ll even help you out:
Find Your Legislator

Second, consider donating to organizations and charities championing equality and funding legal battles against intolerance and prejudice such as the ACLU or Minority Equality groups.

20 African American Charities

https://www.aclu.org/

If you’ve the means to do so, many cities and towns both large and small have active social and community support groups you can volunteer at and join that help organize protests and petition lawmakers for better treatment. Look online and you’ll find plenty of opportunities. They are ALWAYS in need of volunteers and help.

But... most importantly, and most difficult... don’t be quiet on this subject. Not among coworkers. Not among friends. Not among family. That runs the risk of making someone you care about upset, or making your friendships or work relationships strained... and that’s the risk you have to take, and that risk - and its fallout - is nothing compared to the pain and oppression countless others face on a daily basis. It costs something to take a stand, especially among your peers, but it’s the best course of action to take to challenge such inhuman views of others, and the best opportunity to help those in your community rethink and possibly change their views. It may not happen, and that sucks, but I myself am living proof of this change.

Despite the hate and ugliness, never give up on people. It’s never too late to take a stand for equality.
 
B

Brazil

Living in the shadow of Amaz
I'd love for someone to point me in the direction of one instance in history in which a hate group was defeated by anything other than pure violence.
 
K

KarmaCow

Member
bananas said:
I guess you're right, these Nazis would've been completely peaceful if we just left them alone. It's not like anything that has happened in the LAST 24 HOURS WOULD DISPROVE THIS THEORY OF YOURS.
Click to expand...

Right? There's a maddening absurdity to the people suggesting to give these fucks a chance in a thread about the death and injuries that resulted from giving them any room.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Brazil said:
I'd love for someone to point me in the direction of one instance in history in which a hate group was defeated by anything other than pure violence.
Click to expand...

Countries across Europe are currently shutting down and tackling Islamic extremism by using the legal system, intelligence services and counter measures. 'Pure violence' is only used in the wake of an attack to neutralise the attacker(s).

The US Government needs to start treat Neo-Nazis like we do in Europe. Along with all the other hate/radical groups and movements.
 
T

TyrantII

Member
Garlador said:
It is the duty and responsibility of anyone belonging to the human race to stand up for the weak and oppressed against any tide of bigotry and hatred.

Easy to say, right? Harder to put into action.

Well, here’s a start.

Call your local senators, representatives, and state officials. Let them know you are NOT okay with this. Their contact info is PUBLIC information.

If you live in a state that is “right-leaning” this carries far more weight. I’ll even help you out:
Find Your Legislator

Second, consider donating to organizations and charities championing equality and funding legal battles against intolerance and prejudice such as the ACLU or Minority Equality groups.

20 African American Charities

https://www.aclu.org/

If you’ve the means to do so, many cities and towns both large and small have active social and community support groups you can volunteer at and join that help organize protests and petition lawmakers for better treatment. Look online and you’ll find plenty of opportunities. They are ALWAYS in need of volunteers and help.

But... most importantly, and most difficult... don’t be quiet on this subject. Not among coworkers. Not among friends. Not among family. That runs the risk of making someone you care about upset, or making your friendships or work relationships strained... and that’s the risk you have to take, and that risk - and its fallout - is nothing compared to the pain and oppression countless others face on a daily basis. It costs something to take a stand, especially among your peers, but it’s the best course of action to take to challenge such inhuman views of others, and the best opportunity to help those in your community rethink and possibly change their views. It may not happen, and that sucks, but I myself am living proof of this change.

Despite the hate and ugliness, never give up on people. It’s never too late to take a stand for equality.
Click to expand...

Also vote. Yes, even for the lesser of two evils. Like fucking France understood.

Political power comes from politicians needing you in their coalition. From the threat of losing your vote. Not from actually losing it. Not from grandstanding, and waiting for the perfect Scottsman.

Vote the best option you have and lobby the shit out of them 365/24/7. Yes, it's hard work. Yes it's the only path forward, as it had always been.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Ah, now that the Nazis can't claim that the killer was a leftist Bernie supporter I see they're trying to spread the idea that he is Jewish based on his mother's last name, Bloom.

Even though if you look up the etymology of Bloom as a surname, it could equally be Anglo-Saxon in origin.

And the fact that that wouldn't make any difference because he still killed people for fascism.
 
G

gcubed

Member
Any Nazi protesting without repercussions is appeasement and acceptance.

A%2Bwoman%2Bhitting%2Ba%2Bneo-Nazi%2Bwith%2Bher%2Bhandbag%252C%2BSweden%252C%2B1985.jpg


The reason they are more public is because they are less afraid. Being more public helps recruit. Fuck them all
 
M

Mammoth Jones

Member
Skyball Paint said:
I do, but I think some may find imprisoning the ones that surrender a touch too merciful.
Click to expand...

Fair but I'm offering a clear ideological compromise that solves the problem. Mofos been pouting that no one is offering that just "beat up nazis". I offer a clear solution and no one seems to want to answer the question I keep proposing.
 
G

Garlador

Member
Brazil said:
I'd love for someone to point me in the direction of one instance in history in which a hate group was defeated by anything other than pure violence.
Click to expand...

Gandhi achieved radical change in India through non-violent protests. He correctly assumed that offering peace in retaliation to the violence around them would shake the nation and reveal the perpetrators as the villains they are to the world at large. Granted his views were INSANELY peace-minded... to the point he also believed the Jewish people should've thrown themselves upon the Nazi swords instead of resisting since "they died anyway".

So I'll leave it to MLK and Dietrich Bonhoeffer to summarize non-violent protests vs violent retaliation:
quote-if-your-opponent-has-a-conscience-then-follow-gandhi-and-nonviolence-but-if-your-enemy-martin-luther-king-86-91-66.jpg
Click to expand...
a2d26dad26a255f00fedb37a61cccf7f--best-non-fiction-books-nazi-concentration-camps.jpg

bonhoeffer-justice.jpg
Click to expand...
 
F

FunkyMunkey

Banned
Audioboxer said:
Countries across Europe are currently shutting down and tackling Islamic extremism by using the legal system, intelligence services and counter measures. 'Pure violence' is only used in the wake of an attack to neutralise the attacker(s).

The US Government needs to start treat Neo-Nazis like we do in Europe. Along with all the other hate/radical groups and movements.
Click to expand...

good you added the second paragraph as that is the crucial part. if our government was actually taking steps to treat this group as a domestic terrorist group, the call to arms against it wouldn't be as violent and zero tolerant as it is becoming. but we have a president who can't even say the fucking words and call it what it is. when the people don't have the safety of the government to protect them and their families domestically and fight people aiming to exterminate them, they will do it themselves. that's how it's always been
 
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