Because it's not fair that I can't blaze through every level without learning the game first.
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I don't understand how you're supposed to play Sonic games.
- Thread starter digitalrelic
- Start date
Because it's not fair that I can't blaze through every level without learning the game first.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
Extremely disingenuous. You can certainly say it has gotten easier or simpler to get A and S ranks, but your statements are wholly reductive. And you've moved goalposts with them too. Your initial post saying that a score is worthless in games post SA2 is simply a falsity; not when there are still many faucets that add your score up that and actually award you a rank at the end of a stage. Your time, ring count, enemies defeated and general tricks all factor into the final tally. Simply "not dying" as you claimed is not a guaranteed S rank, which you would know if you had played any of those games.
And how are we on the topic of complaining about scores in Sonic games anyway? Where are all the people complaining about how useless scores in Mario games are? Or coins in Mario? Or complaining about time limits? No one seems to come up with an answer for me as to why Sonic and no complaints for Mario doing the same (or less on many accounts!)
allenpergallon
Member
Unleashed is definitely not just "beat the level without dying", it probably has the strictest scoring in the series in terms of getting top rank (at least for Day stages). Heroes requires you to utilize your combat abilities well to mitigate your time, 06 is like a hybrid Adventure 1 + Heroes scoring, Colors required you to utilize Wisp bonuses. Hell, Rush and Rush Adventure had you needing to perform and finish tricks competently while also rushing your ass off to hit a specific time while also holding onto a moderate number of rings (i.e. learning the game). Generations is the only game that basically boils down to "just beat the level without dying", but even that's not truly completely accurate.
Are any of these games crafted around score like SA2? No, but that's not the original argument here.
Some games just don't click with people, and questions breed questions. For me, Mario has a much stronger focus or sense of direction than Sonic does. After beating Sonic 2, I understand it better, but it took some time to get a rhythm going. You have to negotiate the tension between getting the most out of Sonic's speed, and getting the most out of the levels. Rings are multi-purpose, but it takes awhile before you reach the point that they're anything but a buffer against death, and you're constantly losing them. It can take some time to settle in, and until you do, it's easy to feel a certain disconnect in how you navigate the levels and interact with everything.
The phenomenon of someone having a tough time wrapping their head around a game isn't exclusive to Sonic, and it shouldn't surprise people at all to see it related to Sonic specifically. If you're a fan of the series, you should be happy to see someone try to understand it. Dismissing it entirely has been a much more common reaction for many years now.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Just hold left and jump occasionally.
toddhunter
Member
Which is why Sonic has always been fundamentally broken beyond that amazing first few minutes of running through a loop, dropping out of a loop, generally messing about with loops.
It is awesome, you can go fast!
But you can't see what is coming?
It is awesome, you can go slowly and carefully!
But going slow sucks compared to other platformers?
... it is awesome, the characters are so cool!
The only way to really play is to just run through the first greenhill level and call it a day.
Arc Christelle
Member
You know... It's crazy, most Sonic enthusiasts love the game series because of the mechanics and how it demands players to "git guud". There are plenty of games like this that are well received but I can't help but to feel a double standard when it comes to Sonic for some reason when people play the games and realize they actually have to learn it. Like there are legitimate bad Sonic games. But outside of those 3-5 (depending on who you ask or if you count the storybook games) There's a lot of value.
Shoutouts to everyone who understood how the scoring system works, how collecting rings and getting chaos emeralds work, and who got to beat the games.
If you're having a hard time playing Sonic games,
I gotchu fam.
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
Sonic The Hedgehog 3
Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Hopefully cheating will encourage you to actually want to earn these things on your own.
Turning Super Sonic and Hyper Sonic when I was a kid was one of the coolest things ever.
Lucky Seven
Banned
We're not saying the game is too difficult for him, either. However if OP has trouble understanding something that can easily be explained by a nine-year old child and you need it spoon-fed... So be it. Maybe somebody can post a YouTube video to make it more understandable for some of you.
This is really not a profound question that requires some consideration. It can be explained on the back of a game case.
-Jist, rings only teach you what path to follow. They are the health in this game. Collect 100 just for bonus life.
-Big ring for chaos emerald mini game. Ring rule changes to making time expand so you can chase ship that holds prize.
Collect 7 hidden emeralds from select stages.
-Beat 12 levels with 2 stages in each. End stage has a boss at end. 24 Boss battles in all.
-Big ring for chaos emerald mini game. Ring rule changes to making time expand so you can chase ship that holds prize.
Collect 7 hidden emeralds from select stages.
-Beat 12 levels with 2 stages in each. End stage has a boss at end. 24 Boss battles in all.
It's not that I expect everyone to instantly "get" and love the series on their first try or anything, it's that the OP is treating Sonic like it's some hardcore Dark Souls-esque experience that they have to prepare for rather than a basic 2D platformer that millions of children easily picked up in the 90's. Like I said, all of their questions are quickly answered by actually playing the game.
AwakenedCloud
Member
Uhh... That's definitely not going to cut it.
For what it's worth, Sonic is what you make of it. I never took it as a speed focused platformer. I don't go slow, but I'm not afraid to temper my speed in a difficult section. Sonic 1 is actually my favorite to go back to.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I just purchased sonic mania.
Sonic is 'back' and the game feels like the original few did.
I'm with you op, no idea. I don't like it much. However I recognize its the best sonic can actually be. I'm not sure how it was ever considered even remotely close to mario though
Sonic is 'back' and the game feels like the original few did.
I'm with you op, no idea. I don't like it much. However I recognize its the best sonic can actually be. I'm not sure how it was ever considered even remotely close to mario though
Good post. These are the things I've started to realize, and I've been enjoying Mania as a result.
The expectation that a game should resonate with an adult today because it resonated with children back in the 90s is nonsensical for multiple reasons.
The premise of the OP doesn't seem to be that Sonic is hardcore, especially challenging, or Dark Souls-esque. They're just curious how people who love the games typically approach them. It's a mindset question, not a mechanics question. If you aren't feeling the rhythm of a game, it doesn't really matter if you're basically capable of getting from point A to point B. Apparently the OP would like to get the most out of Sonic Mania, and would appreciate clarification on how to think about Sonic games.
I just love that this thread of all threads has received such an abundance of condescending replies. "Someone doesn't get a Sonic game? What the fuck?" is not a thought that should cross your mind after 10+ years of people questioning Sonic's core design. Nothing about this strange series makes it immune to the "wait, how should I be approaching this?" question commonly asked of all sorts of games.
Arc Christelle
Member
Thing is, anyone who knows anything about Sonic knows that the issue has never been with design, but execution.
You're putting words in the OP's mouth here, IMO, their questions were bizarrely simple questions like 'what does the giant ring do??'
Like, play the video game and jump in the giant ring and see what happens, like a normal person. 'What's the point of smashing the TV's??' Smash them and see what happens! Or read the manual or watch literally any video of the game. It's just odd.
Um dumb thread imo. Why not just play it and find out? lol..
Sonic on SEGA is one of the most pivotal games in console history. If you never played the classic Sonic games then wow, you are truly missing out on one of the best games made and contributed so much to gaming history. It is a shame if you are a console enthusiast but never played the old Sonic games.
Simple: In Sonic, you have to get to the end of the level with a grand variety of levels from underwater, to a casino, etc.
Sonic on SEGA is one of the most pivotal games in console history. If you never played the classic Sonic games then wow, you are truly missing out on one of the best games made and contributed so much to gaming history. It is a shame if you are a console enthusiast but never played the old Sonic games.
Simple: In Sonic, you have to get to the end of the level with a grand variety of levels from underwater, to a casino, etc.
Unknown?
Member
The OP asked very basic questions... You could ask a lot of them about any game. I don't get Silent Hill, do I kill all of the monsters or do I run past them. What benefit is it to pick up ammo? Should I use health packs? What does the radio do and why is there static when monsters come near?
The fact you are defending these questions makes me think you're an alt account for a troll.
Fair enough, some of the detailed mechanical questions were perhaps unnecessary. But the basic question was is valid I think. sonic always seems about going fast and that seems to have been the case since the original games. As a SNES owning outsider that never had a mega drive, that's my impression anyway
And as it seems to be so different, asking a basic question to try and get some clarification seems absolutely fine. 'Just play it' isn't a helpful answer - OP and others want some pre sales advice rather than going in completely blind. Some reassurance from people that have played sonic games (which several people provided)
Z..
Member
That wouldn't really work.
Joey Jo-Jo Jr
Member
I guess this is why games used to come with instruction manuals.
The thing is, the "bizarrely simple questions" were coupled with questions that get to the core of Sonic's design, like so:
As I said elsewhere, questions breed questions. If you feel that kind of disconnect in relation to something so fundamental as navigating through and interacting with levels, all the extra stuff on top (such as the TVs) might unsurprisingly feel contextless and strange, too.
Ah, it would be in a Sonic thread that I'm first accused of being an alt account.
Earthpainting
Member
I'm afraid I'm one of those people like in the OP. The style of gameplay just never clicked with me, to the point where I'm always questioning if I'm doing something wrong. I never really feel like I'm control, whether I'm going fast or I'm going slow. I then try to awkwardly oscillate between the two of them, which keeps me alive, but prevents me from having any sense of flow to my experience. I think one of the reasons you keep questioning yourself because Sonic appeared to be such a beloved juggernaut, so it feels more likely that you're just doing something wrong, rather than accepting that the games just isn't for you. Another thing that makes things confusing is that for years fans kept saying SEGA's marketing team didn't understand Sonic, and that in its later years, the devs didn't either. This sets up the expectation that there's room for "doing it wrong."
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that it might be best to think of Sonic as a Tony Hawk game, and that sort of made sense to me on some level. That's another game where you need any semblance of momentum to do anything, and the stages were laid out with constant slopes to help you build up speed. Speed has to be earned and allows you to do things, but increases your risks. It also has a surprising focus on secrets and exploration, in spite of having a timer. Both franchises also loved butt rock in the early 2000s. I didn't really care for this franchise either, but the comparison seems to hold weight in some aspects.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that it might be best to think of Sonic as a Tony Hawk game, and that sort of made sense to me on some level. That's another game where you need any semblance of momentum to do anything, and the stages were laid out with constant slopes to help you build up speed. Speed has to be earned and allows you to do things, but increases your risks. It also has a surprising focus on secrets and exploration, in spite of having a timer. Both franchises also loved butt rock in the early 2000s. I didn't really care for this franchise either, but the comparison seems to hold weight in some aspects.
CharminUltra
Member
Half the time I'm playing Mania I feel like I'm stumbling around the levels rather than navigating them, like I'm finding the correct path by mistake and guesswork rather than by actual effort or skill, which might be the point, but feels unrewarding to me.
So I kinda get where you're coming from, OP. That said, I'm only a few hours in, so I'll just keep at it and see if it finally clicks.
So I kinda get where you're coming from, OP. That said, I'm only a few hours in, so I'll just keep at it and see if it finally clicks.
See, your premise is flawed from the getgo.
Sonic's control when he's slow is not bad. Not at all.
kitchenmotors
Banned
2D Sonic games are a bit of a mess, but I think thats part of the charm.
DieNgamers
Member
Yeah, the game mechanics always contradicted each other. I never liked any of the characters, too.
3rdDimension
Member
This mulitplied by 100.
I am always amazed out how people approach games today compared to the generation that grew up on the 2D, first gen 3D games.
I strongly believe one of the reasons there is such strong nostalgia with classic games is because they required one to actually learn and get better at the game. Thus creating a stronger bond to the game.
The feeling of accomplishment was so much more enjoyable.
Now games have to litterally hold peoples hands rather than ask them to learn and get good at the game.
But slow platforming with Sonic feels better than other platformers. The physics actually make sense and feel loose.
I mean there isn't any "navigating" to be had in any Sonic game. The "correct" paths, if you can even call them that, are clearly self-evident in almost every part of the stage and even when they aren't the game will guide you in some direction via some means. This is a platformer we're talking about after all. The game is 99% player execution.
Paul_Str337
Member
Rookie mistake; you'd just be running into the screen! D'oh.
Pfft, true Sonic masters realize that going far enough left activates a screen wrap, letting you finish the level in the fastest time possible with the least effort possible!
thesonovabeach
Member
6 years old figured out everything about the game in the nineties without any guides or whatever but now people have 1000 questions like "do I kill all enemies or run past them ?" lol.
My advice is : try it. Try every TV you find to see what it does. Try going as fast as you can to see if there is a reward. Do the same with as many rings you can find. These are 2 hours games when you know them, there is a lot of room for experimentation.
My advice is : try it. Try every TV you find to see what it does. Try going as fast as you can to see if there is a reward. Do the same with as many rings you can find. These are 2 hours games when you know them, there is a lot of room for experimentation.
I've been having the exact same questions ever since I first played Sonic on Mega Drive. I do remember liking Sonic Rush on the DS when it came out, but that was such a long time ago I can't remember how it differed from the usual (or if it did at all). I bought Mania mostly because it's on the Switch and there's nothing else on the Switch at the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to enjoy it. At least the soundtrack seemed great.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I played Sonic as a child. There's adults here who don't know how to play a Sonic game.
This thread is why games hold peoples hands nowadays and use tutorials. The general audience is too stupid to figure out you go from left to right, whatever way you want.
I read the first few pages and people have explain this in detail already.
This is just like those "Crash was never good" threads we seen.
This thread is why games hold peoples hands nowadays and use tutorials. The general audience is too stupid to figure out you go from left to right, whatever way you want.
I read the first few pages and people have explain this in detail already.
This is just like those "Crash was never good" threads we seen.
Sonic games for me have always been about the replayability.
The first time you play through you're not going to be able to know the quickest path or where all the secret rings are hidden. For me the games were always at the best after the first playthroughs, once I was able to start memorizing the most efficient paths and routes to take.
That being said, for anyone who didn't play the originals I can see why Mania can be confusing/ overwhelming. It is like Sonic's 1, 2, CD, 3&K on steroids and is challenging even for those that have played the originals multiple times.
The first time you play through you're not going to be able to know the quickest path or where all the secret rings are hidden. For me the games were always at the best after the first playthroughs, once I was able to start memorizing the most efficient paths and routes to take.
That being said, for anyone who didn't play the originals I can see why Mania can be confusing/ overwhelming. It is like Sonic's 1, 2, CD, 3&K on steroids and is challenging even for those that have played the originals multiple times.
Imagine how a platformer from that time used to be experienced: every single attempt at a playthrough consisted in replaying the entire game from start to finish or, if the player was still unable to beat the game, to the hardest point that could be reached before losing all lives and continues. Each attempt at completing the game pushed the finish line further away until the game was done.
A very serious problem with this classic platforming structure is the piling up at every replay of those "beaten and frankly pointless" in-between levels. Replaying those early levels feels like a chore, and soon it turn joyful platforming into a dull repetition exercise. Now, in 2017 level 1-1 of Mario is considered a masterpiece in player learning, but my child self who replayed it a billion times in the '80-'90 while dealing with 8-1 to 8-4 knew it as something different: a fucking chore where I would farm coins/lives to allow me to stay longer in the levels I actually cared about. Mario dropped the ball on this problem by making players just skip most levels thanks to cheats, but imagine if a game had something that could give value to those old mastered levels, something that gave an added value to remembering paths and flawless repetition.
In Sonic, the player's memory of levels and the ability to execute the same set of jumps again and again turns that platforming dead weight into visual spectacle, with the added benefit of allowing the player to fast track the beaten path as he focuses on the real challenge. And the best part is that the player does not notice it happening: that's the genius idea behind momentum based platforming. The player doesn't need to break a level with an exploit or a hard coded cheat, nor to learn a new set of tools or crazy skills that allows him to go faster and do things he could not before: he will naturally redo his actions with less mistakes, and less mistakes will make his momentum not drop, which will make his playthrough naturally faster. Not only that, but this extra speed will naturally lead to some new passages that were too hard or just ignored the first time around. The way I played Green Hill Act 2 the day i got the game was radically different from week 1, and completely different from month 1.
However while speed is great and gives a reason to revisit and enjoy old content... Isn't it all a visual trick and a slight convenience? But we want real gameplay! Not gimmicks! I mean, the player is STILL replaying the same levels and redoing the same thing again and again until it becomes routine, right? If only the game had something that forced the player to go out of their comfort zone, forced them to question if their choice of path made in the very first playthough was the best choice... something like a premium currency, a currency tied to speed in some way...
Rings as health items are to Mario's mushrooms what Halo's regenerating health was to Half Life, it turns a rigid clockwork system into a lax sandbox that doesn't feel like castrating the player for mistakes, in fact, getting hit is its own procedural minigame that leads to some really amazing moments (My last ring!). How rings are tied to speed? The first playthrough the player will inevitably rely on monitors to get the easiest fix of rings required to get a life or enter a bonus stage, however players who are enjoying the replay of the first levels as speedrunners will naturally tend to shift their focus from still targets to "ring clouds" along their chosen path. Finding ring clouds and the best rings/speed ratio paths is the main motivator into experimenting in old beaten levels: after all, you still need to pile up lives for the more challenging parts and get to those bonus stages.
Summing it up, that's how Sonic works:
Day 1 - It's a normal platformer, and if you don't believe it, they put spikes everywhere to remind you.
Day 3 - It's a normal platformer where you start to get fast in the earlier part without noticing.
Day 7 - You noticed how fast it can be, now you tend to re-optimize the early level paths and wonder what you've been missing. You've also likely beaten the pure platformer playthough, most platformers of that time would be DONE right now.
...
Day 30 - You are super sonic.
A very serious problem with this classic platforming structure is the piling up at every replay of those "beaten and frankly pointless" in-between levels. Replaying those early levels feels like a chore, and soon it turn joyful platforming into a dull repetition exercise. Now, in 2017 level 1-1 of Mario is considered a masterpiece in player learning, but my child self who replayed it a billion times in the '80-'90 while dealing with 8-1 to 8-4 knew it as something different: a fucking chore where I would farm coins/lives to allow me to stay longer in the levels I actually cared about. Mario dropped the ball on this problem by making players just skip most levels thanks to cheats, but imagine if a game had something that could give value to those old mastered levels, something that gave an added value to remembering paths and flawless repetition.
In Sonic, the player's memory of levels and the ability to execute the same set of jumps again and again turns that platforming dead weight into visual spectacle, with the added benefit of allowing the player to fast track the beaten path as he focuses on the real challenge. And the best part is that the player does not notice it happening: that's the genius idea behind momentum based platforming. The player doesn't need to break a level with an exploit or a hard coded cheat, nor to learn a new set of tools or crazy skills that allows him to go faster and do things he could not before: he will naturally redo his actions with less mistakes, and less mistakes will make his momentum not drop, which will make his playthrough naturally faster. Not only that, but this extra speed will naturally lead to some new passages that were too hard or just ignored the first time around. The way I played Green Hill Act 2 the day i got the game was radically different from week 1, and completely different from month 1.
However while speed is great and gives a reason to revisit and enjoy old content... Isn't it all a visual trick and a slight convenience? But we want real gameplay! Not gimmicks! I mean, the player is STILL replaying the same levels and redoing the same thing again and again until it becomes routine, right? If only the game had something that forced the player to go out of their comfort zone, forced them to question if their choice of path made in the very first playthough was the best choice... something like a premium currency, a currency tied to speed in some way...
Rings as health items are to Mario's mushrooms what Halo's regenerating health was to Half Life, it turns a rigid clockwork system into a lax sandbox that doesn't feel like castrating the player for mistakes, in fact, getting hit is its own procedural minigame that leads to some really amazing moments (My last ring!). How rings are tied to speed? The first playthrough the player will inevitably rely on monitors to get the easiest fix of rings required to get a life or enter a bonus stage, however players who are enjoying the replay of the first levels as speedrunners will naturally tend to shift their focus from still targets to "ring clouds" along their chosen path. Finding ring clouds and the best rings/speed ratio paths is the main motivator into experimenting in old beaten levels: after all, you still need to pile up lives for the more challenging parts and get to those bonus stages.
Summing it up, that's how Sonic works:
Day 1 - It's a normal platformer, and if you don't believe it, they put spikes everywhere to remind you.
Day 3 - It's a normal platformer where you start to get fast in the earlier part without noticing.
Day 7 - You noticed how fast it can be, now you tend to re-optimize the early level paths and wonder what you've been missing. You've also likely beaten the pure platformer playthough, most platformers of that time would be DONE right now.
...
Day 30 - You are super sonic.
ItalianJoe83
Member
Oh boy...
Now I feel even older than before...
Now I feel even older than before...
Waluigilicious
Member
Way to misunderstand the whole topic. We all know how to play. You get to the end of the stage. Most of us can do this.
What I don't get is how this is a platformer yet I'm mostly just holding right and jumping occasionally, building up speed yet coming to a halt etc. What I don't get is how these games got so popular in the first place. They feel like bad platformers.
Yes, I have completed the classic Sonic games. I, like many others in this topic, like them just for the music. It almost feels like I'm purchasing a music CD with nice visuals to go with it. I've never understood the appeal of the gameplay and I'm not the only one. Why is it so hard to understand that this topic isn't about people not knowing what to do and it certainly isn't about difficulty.