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The Power of Developers to Deny the Right to Use Their Content - a Debate thread

I guess I'm defining virtue signalling differently here- by how I generally see the term defined being legitimately against a thing and virtue signalling against said thing aren't mutually exclusive. I'm sure they legitimately think that Pewdiepie's a shithead, and if they had simply said "yeah fuck that guy" that would be one thing, but going out of their way to declare that they're going to DMCA him (which they knew full well would generate controversy and thus attention for their company/game) is pretty clear into the zone of what I'd call virtue signalling. It's the difference between expressing an opinion and expressing your opinion in a way that ensures said expression will generate attention.

I think part of the contention comes from the fact that the term 'virtue signalling' is often used as a means of delegitimising criticism upon the grounds that it is nothing more than ego-stroking, regardless of the merit in the criticism itself or the potential good that could be made by a person of influence in particular expressing that view. That is to say, the treatment of 'virtue signalling' as inherently a bad thing with little other qualifier.
 
I am conflicted in this. I absolutely support the developers to sell their games as a service - having complete control over things like map rotations, multiplayer aspects, and the enforcement of any rules even if you "own" the game disc. So, from this standpoint, I would have no problem with game devs banning PewDiePie from their games for all eternity.

The issue is they want to DMCA on a platform separate from their own simply because it uses their content. If they had his video taken down for racist content, that would be excellent and help push Google to enforce their own rules against racist content without setting any unfortunate precedents.
 
PDP can and likely would take them to court and I imagine he has more money than they do which would present an unfair case in terms of fair use especially with that statement they made about streaming.
They're probably in the right morally, but they're likely screwed legally.
 

Biske

Member
It's a complicated thing, but its kind of a case of "keep my name out of your piece of shit mouth"


If I had content, on a system where I could influence how it was used, and some piece of shit was using it? Yeah, I'd put a stop to it too.
 
I have a question. Do we consider this streaming youtube stuff as jobs? Like, if these people make a living off this stuff so its a job prettu much right?

If I went to work and started spouting fuckboi comments, my boss wouldnt tolerate it and my ass would be fired so fast.

Why shouldnt streaming be the same? Are we saying streamers should not be held accountable to anyone at all while influencing thousands if not millions of individuals (especially kids)

Because they are their own boss.
You talking about a different company here, they do business with. They can't fire you of couse. But they can stop working with you.

And with all this stuff it's case by case and a judge has to tell what can be done or not. There is no general answer.
Especially if it comes to previous content and not future content, where the case is more obvious
 
They can file their claim and then it should be reviewed if it's appropriate.

If their claim is that they don't want a racist profiting off of their work and they can show why they consider that person to be racist, it should be a valid claim
 

Biske

Member
Now imagine someone diametrically opposed to you politically saying this.

I mean... if its their content.


If I'm on youtube with some conservatives content and they are all "get your dirty liberal hands off of this!" well, thats cool, unless I'm a complete ass lacking any kind of creativity I can easily move on to other things?

Is there any situation where it would be "NO! NO!! I NEED TO PLAY YOUR GAME! ITS MY RIGHT!!!"

Nah.
 

SeanTSC

Member
I'm okay with this. I don't think Racists should be allowed to have platforms.

Racism isn't a "different viewpoint" or "political opinion". Same with Nazis and Genocide. There's no middle ground, there's no both sides, you're just a piece of shit if you're either one of those. People being subhuman or lessers because of their skin isn't something that's "up for debate" - it's just disgusting hate and bullshit.

They should be shut down at every opportunity and I hope more developers follow suit with issuing take downs against PDP and others like him.
 

Gxgear

Member
Seems like the developer is just using this unrelated incident as a jumping board for the completely different topic of monetization.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
I'm not seeing an issue.

Typically when studios give reviewers games, movies, music, etc. The Double Toasted guys were talking about it, studios let them show trailers or clips given to them. They don't let them show stuff that isn't approved. Otherwise, their youtube bits would be taken down.

Game studios turn a blind eye to this, since it's more of a mutual relationship much more than music or movies.

A studio has all the fucking right to DMCA the fuck out of people who are doing nothing, but showing their entire game for free while they play and make commentary on it. This isn't a slippery slope at all, since it exists in every other form of media already. They are just applying their rights as a creator and don't want any sort of associate with a piece of shit.
 

antonz

Member
I am not sure how Let's Plays ever got to the scope they are. The Gaming Industry has a relationship where its benefited them to some degree obviously but people also seem to have lost sight of the fact the content being played/distributed via video is created by others.

You want to review a movie or TV show you have to respect the content owners rights and are limited to typically no more than 10 minutes of footage from said show/movies and the Distributor of said show/movie can still say hell no and kill the videos.
 
Now I would 100 percent agree on the developer side if the stuff he said was on a video that included content they created but with this I don't think it's justified.

Sure what he did was wrong to say on his channel and should of instantly apologized and made a statement on it. With anything there should be consequences for his actions.

The issue comes down to how to handle it because it's know YouTube can't handle it because they are demonetizing every channel that isn't "add friendly". It's bullshit to see people get affected by it that do nothing wrong.
 
I'm sorry, when did "Saying the N-word" become a political position and not just something that's outright morally reprehensible?

The neat thing about politics is that the vast majority of positions right of center are "outright morally reprehensible."

I'd likely not buy a game that was developed by people that are openly bigoted and hateful, so. Y'know.

Okay, but there are an infinite number of ways to use other people's content other than just recording yourself playing it. If I make a video making fun of some conservative dipshit and use footage of him in my videos (which I guess after the H3H3 case, is legally acceptable), should he have the right to DMCA me to take it down?

Personally, I don't think so. The responsibility to remove racist content from YouTube should fall entirely on YouTube. They're obviously doing an abysmal job doing so right now, but that's a different conversation.
 

Sylas

Member
Now I would 100 percent agree on the developer side if the stuff he said was on a video that included content they created but with this I don't think it's justified.

Sure what he did was wrong to say on his channel and should of instantly apologized and made a statement on it. With anything there should be consequences for his actions.

The issue comes down to how to handle it because it's know YouTube can't handle it because they are demonetizing every channel that isn't "add friendly". It's bullshit to see people get affected by it that do nothing wrong.

Not everything is washed away by apologizing and "making a statement." In fact, I'm sick and tired of people "making statements," because it implies they just got away with doing something shotty.
 

Parham

Banned
Guess I need to post this again since there are some people who seem to have already forgotten after 2 page. Wow, how the mind slips!

"Allegedly"

Opening admitting to sexually assaulting someone(then banning anyone who called him out for it)
1508785001663-WgTMVEd.jpeg


Posting revenge porn with their real full names then another admin(a now jailed pedophile) printed the photos and jacked off over them and sent it to the boyfriend.
uRGmEGL.jpg


You're right, how can we even know if he's guilty or not? HMMMM

Also:
6B7C1lb.jpg

ZQmUpHL.png
 
Do not give devs or publishers a fucking inch.

They will take 100 miles.

They will abuse and ruin the entire system.

They've done this with everything people gave an inch on.
 
Yeah, that's a lawsuit that Campo Santo has absolutely no chance of winning. All PewDiePie's lawyers have to do is point at Campo Santo giving blanket permission for videos to be made.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Just a reminder: unless Youtube is breaking the law re: copyright, they can have any internal interpretation of copyright they damn well want to. If they want to take something down off their private servers, they will, even if it's technically legal.

Yeah, that's a lawsuit that Campo Santo has absolutely no chance of winning. All PewDiePie's lawyers have to do is point at Campo Santo giving blanket permission for videos to be made.

Shrink wrap EULAs not holding much legal weight works both ways.
 
Not everything is washed away by apologizing and "making a statement." In fact, I'm sick and tired of people "making statements," because it implies they just got away with doing something shotty.

And I never said it does but he should make it clear to the people that is watching that what he said was wrong and should not be followed.
 

BHK3

Banned
Do not give devs or publishers a fucking inch.

They will take 100 miles.

They will abuse and ruin the entire system.

They've done this with everything people gave an inch on.

Agreed. Sounds noble now, then some douchebag company will come and take other videos down saying they don't want to be associated with 'toxic' players that rip on their game.
 

sonicmj1

Member
PDP can and likely would take them to court and I imagine he has more money than they do which would present an unfair case in terms of fair use especially with that statement they made about streaming.
They're probably in the right morally, but they're likely screwed legally.

Legally, this is really murky ground, and right now everyone involved benefits from it staying that way. If I can't post a full movie with my commentary over it (why Rifftrax is audio-only), why should I be able to do the same with a video game? Is your gameplay actually that transformative? I could go into more detail, but at the very least this isn't clear cut. I'd be shocked if anyone goes to court about it, because if the Youtubers lose, then their entire niche vanishes overnight.

From a less legalistic point of view, the harm that comes from developers/publishers posting takedowns of Youtube videos about their game depends on how the audience sees what they do. If you're using DMCA notices to suppress criticism, then naturally you're going to look like an asshole. I don't think it's hard to draw a hard line there.

If you use DMCA to prevent your game being associated with political viewpoints you find abhorrent, then there are going to be some people that cheer you on, and some that find the action to violate free speech principles or whatever. As a developer you insert yourself into a very polarizing argument, and if you're comfortable with that then go for it.

I generally feel like people should be pretty free to share and remix work, and I don't like Youtube's DMCA system because of how sweeping and arbitrary it is. But I also absolutely understand that someone might not want their creation to be used in a way that associates them with ideas they dislike. Other content creators should respect those sorts of requests.
 
Do not give devs or publishers a fucking inch.

They will take 100 miles.

They will abuse and ruin the entire system.

They've done this with everything people gave an inch on.
A small indie studio taking a stand against a racist isn't the same as "BIG EVIL PUBLISHERS".
They're not trying to take down a year old video because it's hurting sales or anything
 
I admire their stance, but this is a fight they won't win. PDP has the entire system built to support him and even the studio's past words can be used against them. Good luck to them if they go ahead with it.

Also I agree with the concern about allowing some weaponisation of the DMCA system, impossible to draw a line and people will cross it anyway if given an inch.

PDP deserves serious ramifications but it'll have to come from elsewhere and considering what his fans and YouTube have allowed him to get away with in the past I'm sure he'll be fine.
 
Legally, this is really murky ground, and right now everyone involved benefits from it staying that way. If I can't post a full movie with my commentary over it (why Rifftrax is audio-only), why should I be able to do the same with a video game? Is your gameplay actually that transformative? I could go into more detail, but at the very least this isn't clear cut. I'd be shocked if anyone goes to court about it, because if the Youtubers lose, then their entire niche vanishes overnight.

Honestly, it does feel like Let's Plays are on very thin ice when it comes to the law. There's been plenty of times where I watched a Let's Play of a story driven game in lieu of actually buying it and playing through it myself. It's really not that far removed from someone making a reaction video of a Hollywood movie that contains the movie in its entirety.
 

bardia

Member
lol fuck Pewdiepie, but these small indie developer's acting like youtubers make a fortune off of their games is a joke. Big youtubers are one of the main reasons games like these do well, especially when Pewdiepie plays their games. Also, allowing developers/publishers to abuse DMCA take downs will hurt a lot of other smaller youtubers in the long run.
 
To elaborate, I do think that in principle, I do think that developers and publishers do have the right to set whatever policy on monetising streams and YouTube videos and whatever. The problem is that I don't think you should retroactively revoke permissions, and using the DMCA mechanism to take down videos well after the fact does strike me as a very dubious legal position. Especially if your previous position was a blanket, unrestricted permission.

Shrink wrap EULAs not holding much legal weight works both ways.
That's largely because nobody reads EULAs, largely because of them only appearing during the installation process. The permissions in question are linked on the damn homepage. I don't think your argument holds water, in this case.
 
lol fuck Pewdiepie, but these small indie developer's acting like youtubers make a fortune off of their games is a joke. Big youtubers are one of the main reasons games like these do well, especially when Pewdiepie plays their games. Also, allowing developers/publishers to abuse DMCA take downs will hurt a lot of other smaller youtubers in the long run.
That's not what they're acting like. They just don't want their work connected to a racist
 
lol fuck Pewdiepie, but these small indie developer's acting like youtubers make a fortune off of their games is a joke. Big youtubers are one of the main reasons games like these do well, especially when Pewdiepie plays their games. Also, allowing developers/publishers to abuse DMCA take downs will hurt a lot of other smaller youtubers in the long run.
They don't want "free advertising" from a bad person.
They don't want their product being used for a bad person to make money (no matter how small).

We can discuss them hurting smaller youtubers if they ever do. Right now, they aren't
 

sonicmj1

Member
To elaborate, I do think that in principle, I do think that developers and publishers do have the right to set whatever policy on monetising streams and YouTube videos and whatever. The problem is that I don't think you should retroactively revoke permissions, and using the DMCA mechanism to take down videos well after the fact does strike me as a very dubious legal position. Especially if your previous position was a blanket, unrestricted permission.

This is a fair point (so maybe immediately jumping to DMCA is the wrong move), but I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to revoke permission to monetize later, as long as you don't expect to get any of the money made prior to revoking permission.
 

Riposte

Member
Publishers suck, but I'll always trust a developer over a gamer any day.

There's no significant division between publisher and developer.

If you think *magic indie sauce* will keep the logic of "Our game on his channel =endorsement" safe from abuse from the big evil publishers, naivety is too soft of a word. At it's most optimistic interpretation (an impossibility, frankly, considering we are talking about abusing DCMAs), it still says you play/show/criticize the game at the company's goodwill rather than it being an activity with some you own.
 
Here is Keemstar's answer to those tweets (attention, he cusses a little bit):

- https://twitter.com/KEEMSTAR/status/907017914083143680

It would probably help to specify how this is meant to relate to the matter of the conversation. If the implication (whether for you or Keemstar) is that developers shouldn't be able to, or otherwise just should not, take down videos on the basis of the reciprocal relationship that Let's Players as potential advertising provides for games, please specify that.
 
This is a fair point (so maybe immediately jumping to DMCA is the wrong move), but I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to revoke permission to monetize later, as long as you don't expect to get any of the money made prior to revoking permission.
I suppose my problem is less "restricting permissions" (although that'll probably result in bad PR) and more retroactively taking action on videos & streams that were produced on the understanding that they had permission.
 
The "free advertising" excuse.

Also, defending PDP after saying the n word isn't a good look

Campo Santo invited this by talking about how he made money off of them. This whole thing is going to get deflected into a debate over copyright and monetization instead of just being a denunciation of a racist prick.
 

BlackHeron

Neo Member
And we should care about Keemstar, why?

For the same principle we get to care about what you say (that is how forums work, ya know): sharing an opinion, viewpoint.
Especially from people that make a living on the platform (the fact you respect them or not is a different story, and not the main point).
He explains how YouTubers promoting his games have greatly boosted his sales.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
If they originally had a policy of "fuck let's play videos" it wouldn't be an issue.

Buuuuut

JsPPHdn.png


If they had a policy of shutting down videos that had shitty/racist views in those videos, it wouldn't be an issue.

Do they have the legal right to pursue this action because he is using video content they produced? Probably.

What if the video was just talking into a camera with 0 video game content? Should companies be able to DMCA criticism of broken/buggy games? I'm sure they'd love to.

Are you suggesting a DMCA take-down would be denied by invoking some freedom of speech slippery slope?

This incident should be enough for developers to establish a precedent with platforms like YouTube and Twitch.
 
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