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The Power of Developers to Deny the Right to Use Their Content - a Debate thread

Prompted by this thread, after one of the mods asked that any discussion of the topic title be taken elsewhere.

For those requiring a tl;dr, famed internet personality and youtuber Pewdiepie used what is colloquially referred to as the 'N-Word' during a stream in a bout of frustration with another player. Many have taken this as an act of racism, and further evidence towards PDP himself being racist; one group in particular are attempting to leverage what power they have to provide consequences for such:

Nl0ax5i.png


The impetus is simple: The developers of Firewatch feel that, given Pewdiepie's behaviour and implicit beliefs, they should be able to revoke his ability to profit in any fashion from their creative endeavour, and even use such work to to generate even views. Many have welcomed this for introducing some kind of potential punishment for Pewdiepie's use of a racial slur, even if potentially for just the one game and other future productions of the studio. However, it also raised a more abstract issue: Should video game creators have such power to curate content, even if derived from their own, to begin with?

The premise, and concern, is such: If Campo Santo are lauded for using their copyright in this fashion, then it may legitimise - at least to platforms like Youtube - other developers and/or publishers doing the same for less altruistic reasoning. One attempted example of this can be seen in the actions of Digital Homicide, the now infamous developer that attempted to defame and sue Jim Sterling of the Jimquisition for his coverage of their various, usually regarded as quite poorly developed projects on Steam. While Digital Homicide's efforts were ultimately unsuccessful, some fear that larger corporate bodies with some actual competency to them - such as Warner Bros - might use such to try and threaten or coerce creators and critics into limiting or entirely avoiding overly negative coverage and perspectives, emboldened if an otherwise entirely commendable example legitimised the general principle of copyright holders being able to go 'No, you cannot use this', potentially in violation of 'Fair Use', whatever variation on that concept may be applicable to a person's country of origin. Others feel this is basically already the norm, so it might as well be done for something good for once.

So then, whether in the specific context of this one incident, the general principle, what should ideally happen, what you think will actually happen, or any other potential perspective, this thread exists to facilitate the discussion of such without further bogging down the thread reacting to PDP.
 
The creator of Pepe is fighting the same fight, to keep bigots from using his IP. Game devs deserve that same right. YouTubers and gamers are owed nothing.

Edit after phone typo fix: I also don't see this setting any bad precedent.
 

atomsk

Party Pooper
If they originally had a policy of "fuck let's play videos" it wouldn't be an issue.

Buuuuut

JsPPHdn.png


If they had a policy of shutting down videos that had shitty/racist views in those videos, it wouldn't be an issue.

Do they have the legal right to pursue this action because he is using video content they produced? Probably.

What if the video was just talking into a camera with 0 video game content? Should companies be able to DMCA criticism of broken/buggy games? I'm sure they'd love to.
 

axisofweevils

Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
Makes sense. Its really no different from The Rolling Stones not allowing their music to be played during a Trump campaign.
 

FZZ

Banned
The creator of Pepe is fighting the same fight, to keep bigots from using his IP. Game devs deserve that same right. YouTubers and games are owed nothing.

Bingo

Hope more developers follow this lead

It helps gaming as a whole. It shows others shit like this regardless if it's "a moment in rage" doesn't make it okay.

Content creators who spew racist, bigoted, garbage like Pewdiepie do not deserve to make a living off your IP. Devs hold all the power.
 

TheMoon

Member
If they originally had a policy of "fuck let's play videos" it wouldn't be an issue.

Buuuuut

JsPPHdn.png


If they had a policy of shutting down videos that had shitty/racist views in those videos, it wouldn't be an issue.

Do they have the legal right to pursue this action because he is using video content they produced? Probably.

What if the video was just talking into a camera with 0 video game content? Should companies be able to DMCA criticism of broken/buggy games? I'm sure they'd love to.

If I have content and you use that content to make money while using hate speech then you get fucked.

If you make money with my content and you just trash talk it then I have to stfu.
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
I have a question. Do we consider this streaming youtube stuff as jobs? Like, if these people make a living off this stuff so its a job prettu much right?

If I went to work and started spouting fuckboi comments, my boss wouldnt tolerate it and my ass would be fired so fast.

Why shouldnt streaming be the same? Are we saying streamers should not be held accountable to anyone at all while influencing thousands if not millions of individuals (especially kids)
 

DrNeroCF

Member
I'm not sure this boils down to much more than 'I don't like how they're using my content,' which is a pretty dangerous precedent. Do we force creators to deal with usuage during criticism of their work, but have power if the transformative part is morally abhorrent?

Just not sure how you could draw a line and keep Fair Use a strong legal argument..
 

Riviakn

Banned
I knew this would happen as I was reading the post. Guys we aren't talking about the Campo Santo and PewDiePie particular case. We are talking about Bungie taking down every video of Destiny 2 from YouTube if the uploader criticizes the new shaders for example
 

ItIsOkBro

Member
ad creators can pull their ads because they don't want their brand associated with something

content creators should have the same ability
 
From what I understand, this isn't what DMCA is meant for. If the videos he made in the past are protected under fair use, they don't lose that protection because he is a racist asshole in an unrelated video.

If his videos are taken down, it should be because he violated YouTube's Terms of Service. Even if I agree with a particular sentiment, or there are good intentions behind it, provisions like DMCA aren't supposed to be a tool for copyright holders to control who can make videos about their IP. They're supposed to be a tool to protect against copyright infringement.

If the videos he made in the past weren't protected under fair use and they just decided to give him a pass, it's a different matter, but then we're wading into somewhat murkier legal territory.
 
I knew this would happen as I was reading the post. Guys we aren't talking about the Campo Santo and PewDiePie particular case. We are talking about Bungie taking down every video of Destiny 2 from YouTube if the uploader criticizes the new shaders for example

Well, we can if we want to, that's part of this point of this thread. Wanted more of a general topic for all levels of this discussion.
 
If they originally had a policy of "fuck let's play videos" it wouldn't be an issue.

Buuuuut

JsPPHdn.png


If they had a policy of shutting down videos that had shitty/racist views in those videos, it wouldn't be an issue.

Do they have the legal right to pursue this action because he is using video content they produced? Probably.

Common sense says no company would want their IP associated with racism or racists. It shouldn't need to be written that "hey, while streaming our content, don't be a racist, bigot, homophobe, etc" unless the game is made by a white supremacist, nazi, or homophobe. Then, it's probably okay cause the devs are POS too.
 

Lork

Member
What if the video was just talking into a camera with 0 video game content? Should companies be able to DMCA criticism of broken/buggy games? I'm sure they'd love to.
I love all of this discussion of the issue like it's some kind of hypothetical. "But what if we lived in a world where corporations could send takedowns to whoever they want, for any reason, and they were instantly enforced without even bothering to check if they have any validity at all?"

What if?
 

Aikidoka

Member
Makes sense. Its really no different from The Rolling Stones not allowing their music to be played during a Trump campaign.

Yeah. I like to think that we are capable of differentiating between let's players that spout hate-speech and nazi imagery and those that don't.
 

Basketball

Member
I think it's just a unique situation
and a big reaction to a very popular person in media

no need to overreact about what these guys do.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
I won't lose sleep if devs decide to ditch Pewdiepie who has shown to be consistently racist, hateful, and double downs on everything he gets called out for.

Pewdiepie has made rape jokes, he has belittled women's intelligence, he did those death to jew "jokes" and now the n word can be added to the list. How many more will it take for people to stop defending him and realize he's a scumbag?
 

atomsk

Party Pooper
What if the video was just talking into a camera with 0 video game content? Should companies be able to DMCA criticism of broken/buggy games? I'm sure they'd love to.
People already try to DMCA take down videos with criticism, this isn't that.
We can fight against the bad cases, when they happen.

I don't think the developers will get away with it here legally, however given what you posted and admitting to it on Twitter.
 

Dyle

Member
I support the idea, but it's another example of DMCA abuse that probably won't end up actually demonetizing any of Pewdiepie's videos. Anything he said in those videos, short of hate speech, will be considered fair use/transformative of the original work and thus wouldn't justify a takedown. Pewdiepie's network probably deals with dozens of attempted DMCA takedowns/copyright strikes daily, so they'll just brush it off. At worst the Firewatch videos will be unavailable for a day or two and the extra exposure/controversy will probably make Pewdiepie more money than if they hadn't done anything.

This definitely makes me more interested in buying Firewatch, but it most likely will not be an effective way of combating Pewdiepie's brand of "benign" bigotry.
 
As a general rule I consider just about any use of the DMCA to take down anything that isn't outright piracy to be squarely in "you're not (legally) wrong, you're just an asshole" territory. If they get away with this (both literally and terms of the court of public opinion) then it sets a dangerous precedent for anyone else who makes their living off of covering video games on Youtube (or anywhere else, for that matter.)

Beyond that, I call bullshit on the idea that this is about not wanting to let him profit off of their content considering that the overwhelming majority of that profit has already been made and wouldn't be taken away by a DMCA takedown. For a similar reason I also call bullshit on the "not wanting our games to be associated with him" argument. As far as I'm concerned there are only two reasons why they could be doing this:

A) They want to further confirm the precedent that devs can control who does and doesn't cover their content and how they do it (Firewatch is one of the sorts of games where people tend to cry about how let's plays hurt their sales, so there's some viability to this,) or more likely

B) Virtue signaling- which I get is an overused term, but this is one case where it's probably the right term to use, because this is most likely just about promoting themselves as being A Progressive Game Company by doing the one thing they can do to express opposition to Pewdiepie, regardless of how over-the-line that thing may be.
 

Riviakn

Banned
Well, we can if we want to, that's part of this point of this thread. Wanted more of a general topic for all levels of this discussion.

Yes, maybe I didn't express myself correctly. What I mean is that this is not only gonna be used in this situation. Because everyone is supporting Campo Santo's actions against PDP, saying they are perfectly fine with Devs taking down videos because they are in conflict with the uploader, but I think we shouldn't only discuss this particular case but the whole system and how it could be exploited.
 

border

Member
I don't think it's a good idea at all to let publishers and copyright holders be the gate-keepers of who gets to make and monetize Fair Use videos.
 

PsionBolt

Member
In general, I'm a strong proponent of LPs and other derivative works. When a dev is against that content, I think it's overly restrictive in a petty way, because I haven't seen evidence that LPs hurt a dev's bottom line.

But when a dev is pro-LP for the general populace and anti-LP for racists specifically, they're not being petty, they're being just. This follows the same sort of logic as the belief that firing an employee for spouting racist remarks is just. So, I fully support the use of legal means to take down videos posted by racists.

Turning a blind eye to racism helps no one.

I knew this would happen as I was reading the post. Guys we aren't talking about the Campo Santo and PewDiePie particular case. We are talking about Bungie taking down every video of Destiny 2 from YouTube if the uploader criticizes the new shaders for example

This, for comparison, would be petty, and not just. So, I do not support takedowns such as your example.
Act morally, and you have my support. Act selfishly, and you do not.

There is no slope. It's as simple as that.

The funny thing is when this was brought up before gaf was outraged at the thought of these companies exerting any kind of control over thier content but now that it's being used against people they dont like it's perfectly acceptable.

That's not a particularly funny thing at all. Humans judge the same actions differently depending on the context. This is a normal, everyday occurrence.
When someone cuts an apple with a knife, it's fine; when they cut a human, it's bad; when they cut in self-defense an assailant hell-bent on taking their life, it's somewhere in between good and bad, with a lot of murky feelings for everyone.
The same action will always have different meaning depending on the context. That's the way it is, and the way it should be.
 
What will happen is that this'll blow over in a few days with maybe a few extra copies sold of Firewatch. Pewdiepie isn't going to be making that much money off videos of their stuff (a cursory check shows his video of the game is a year old), and I don't think you're going to see anyone else taking up this mantle. Certainly no one big enough for it to influence behaviour. The only course I could see this taking where this decision isn't broadly irrelevant is if Pewdiepie decides to fight it, given he has a bigger war chest.
 
I mean, youtube, twitch, twitter etc. have all failed so spectacularly that I have no issues with developers refusing to let blatant bigots use their games to make money. It's the world we live in.
 
B) Virtue signaling- which I get is an overused term, but this is one case where it's probably the right term to use, because this is most likely just about promoting themselves as being A Progressive Game Company by doing the one thing they can do to express opposition to Pewdiepie, regardless of how over-the-line that thing may be.

I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that they genuinely find what he did to be offensive and are angry with his using their game to generate a profit. Not everything is performative. If I were in their position, I wouldn't want him to have anything to do with my games either.
 
I don't think it's a good idea at all to let publishers and copyright holders be the gate-keepers of who gets to make and monetize Fair Use videos.

Well people like PDP have made it damn clear they don't have the ability to make sensible decisions themselves, and it's far far beyond youtubes capacity to go through videos themselves to make that determination.

So I'm fine with them being able to step in.

After all, if you can't help stop yourself being a racist as a celebrity; and that's what these people are; especially in PDPs case where he has a large audience of children, they need to be sanctioned somehow, and this seems the most reasonable course to me.
 

kunonabi

Member
I'm not sure this boils down to much more than 'I don't like how they're using my content,' which is a pretty dangerous precedent. Do we force creators to deal with usuage during criticism of their work, but have power if the transformative part is morally abhorrent?

Just not sure how you could draw a line and keep Fair Use a strong legal argument..

The funny thing is when this was brought up before gaf was outraged at the thought of these companies exerting any kind of control over thier content but now that it's being used against people they dont like it's perfectly acceptable.
 

Cat Party

Member
I mean, youtube, twitch, twitter etc. have all failed so spectacularly that I have no issues with developers refusing to let blatant bigots use their games to make money. It's the world we live in.
Yup. Insane how completely these sites have failed. And our kids are the ones who are most affected by it.
 

Squire

Banned
It must be a really comfortable privilege to see a company actually take a stand against bigotry and concern yourself with the "slippery slope" it creates. Yes, heaven forbid WB stop Sterling from making his 200th video about how terrible MTs are. We should definitely let Nazi420 keep streaming with a 4th Reich banner so as to avoid such a dystopic future.

Honestly, I feel like there are spots of good or even great content on YT, but the platform is a huge mess and needs sorting. The way people mismanage priorities in how to do that is exhausting.

YT can live or die. If it did die, I'd just find the people I like on Patreon and mourne whoever can't survive the loss. It's worth it if the money dries up for guys like PDP.
 

border

Member
After all, if you can't help stop yourself being a racist as a celebrity; and that's what these people are; especially in PDPs case where he has a large audience of children, they need to be sanctioned somehow, and this seems the most reasonable course to me.

The point of the thread is that this question is much bigger than the current PewDiePie clusterfuck.

To say that Campo Santo's actions are acceptable is sort of a tacit admission that Let's Play videos are not Fair Use, and that copyright holders can control them in whatever manner they see fit.
 

StoveOven

Banned
The funny thing is when this was brought up before gaf was outraged at the thought of these companies exerting any kind of control over thier content but now that it's being used against people they dont like it's perfectly acceptable.

"People they don't like" is a useful phrase to use when trying to distort the fact that the real issue is "people who instinctively say racist slurs"
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
B) Virtue signaling- which I get is an overused term, but this is one case where it's probably the right term to use, because this is most likely just about promoting themselves as being A Progressive Game Company by doing the one thing they can do to express opposition to Pewdiepie, regardless of how over-the-line that thing may be.

It obviously has to be this.
The idea of a developer genuinely caring about racism and not wanting to be associated in any way with a racist? Preposterous!
It obviously has to be something self-serving.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
The funny thing is when this was brought up before gaf was outraged at the thought of these companies exerting any kind of control over thier content but now that it's being used against people they dont like it's perfectly acceptable.

To quote myself above

I won't lose sleep if devs decide to ditch Pewdiepie who has shown to be consistently racist, hateful, and double downs on everything he gets called out for.

Pewdiepie has made rape jokes, he has belittled women's intelligence, he did those death to jew "jokes" and now the n word can be added to the list. How many more will it take for people to stop defending him and realize he's a scumbag?
 
The funny thing is when this was brought up before gaf was outraged at the thought of these companies exerting any kind of control over thier content but now that it's being used against people they dont like it's perfectly acceptable.

Well I guess maybe because at the time we thought YouTube wouldn't let prominent figures be this blatantly shitty? This isn't a "I disagree with his opinion on Firewatch! Remove his video!". This is a "hey this guy doesn't deserve to make money on this platform since he's being a bigot".
 
A typical LP usually has nothing in it that should protect you from takedowns (and monetizing the uploads of story heavy games in particular is perplexing to begin with). Other content like reviews, retrospectives, etc. are a different story, i.e. when new kind of stand alone content is created.
 
This is an abuse of the problematic and flawed method of copyright enforcement that Google uses. That it's aimed at a shitty person doesn't make the method of action any better.

It also creates an convenient way for Pewdiepie to deflect and play the victim.

I don't think it's a good idea at all to let publishers and copyright holders be the gate-keepers of who gets to make and monetize Fair Use videos.

Completely agreed.
 
It must be a really comfortable privilege to see a company actually take a stand against bigotry and concern yourself with the "slippery slope" it creates. Yes, heaven forbid WB stop Sterling from making his 200th video about how terrible MTs are. We should definitely let Nazi420 keep streaming with a 4th Reich banner so as to avoid such a dystopic future.

Honestly, I feel like there are spots of good or even great content on YT, but the platform is a huge mess and needs sorting. The way people mismanage priorities in how to do that is exhausting.

YT can live or die. If it did die, I'd just find the people I like on Patreon and mourne whoever can't survive the loss. It's worth it if the money dries up for guys like PDP.

You can be privileged and still be right.

Youtube, Twitch, Patreon, would all absolutely be within their rights to stop him from using their services, and I sincerely hope they ignore the truck loads of money of he brings in and make the right call and ban him.

Campo Santo's DMCA complaint is moronic and I hope it fails immediately. I appreciate why they're frustrated, but developers absolutely shouldn't have the ability to control who gets to make content with their products.
 
I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that they genuinely find what he did to be offensive and are angry with his using their game to generate a profit. Not everything is performative. If I were in their position, I wouldn't want him to have anything to do with my games either.
It obviously has to be this.
The idea of a developer genuinely caring about racism and not wanting to be associated in any way with a racist? Preposterous!
It obviously has to be something self-serving.

I guess I'm defining virtue signalling differently here- by how I generally see the term defined being legitimately against a thing and virtue signalling against said thing aren't mutually exclusive. I'm sure they legitimately think that Pewdiepie's a shithead, and if they had simply said "yeah fuck that guy" that would be one thing, but going out of their way to declare that they're going to DMCA him (which they knew full well would generate controversy and thus attention for their company/game) is pretty clear into the zone of what I'd call virtue signalling. It's the difference between expressing an opinion and expressing your opinion in a way that ensures said expression will generate attention.
 

kunonabi

Member
Well I guess maybe because at the time we thought YouTube wouldn't let prominent figures be this blatantly shitty? This isn't a "I disagree with his opinion on Firewatch! Remove his video!". This is a "hey this guy doesn't deserve to make money on this platform since he's being a bigot".

The thing is it is youtube so why you ever expected everyone on the service to have some sense of decorum is beyond me. This is why ive always been on the side of the companies in regards to how thier content is appropriated instead of just giving a bunch of nobodies free reign. My nephew watches pdp so the sooner that ends the happier ill be.
 

StoveOven

Banned
I guess I'm defining virtue signalling differently here- by how I generally see the term defined being legitimately against a thing and virtue signalling against said thing aren't mutually exclusive. I'm sure they legitimately think that Pewdiepie's a shithead, and if they had simply said "yeah fuck that guy" that would be one thing, but going out of their way to declare that they're going to DMCA him (which they knew full well would generate controversy and thus attention for their company/game) is pretty clear into the zone of what I'd call virtue signalling. It's the difference between expressing an opinion and expressing your opinion in a way that ensures said expression will generate attention.

I mean, they are publicly making enemies with a very influential person in the videogame industry and also stepping into a legal grey area. If anything, this could sink their company. It's definitely not a quick cash grab (or if it is it's a very shortsighted one).
 
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