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[Ampsicora]

It's kinda strange "anime" are so niche on English speaking market, and generally are seen like some products for weirdos from Japan, or at least it seems with threads like this.
In Italy there were so many anime that TV broadcasted more Japanese Animation than Americans during the 70s, the 80's, the 90's and early 2000, lot of people on their fifties at least knows Anime like Harlock, Le rose di Versailles or Lupin III. For example my mother loved Candy Candy and Georgie!

 

[HStallion]

It's kinda strange "anime" are so niche on English speaking market, and generally are seen like some products for weirdos from Japan, or at least it seems with threads like this.
In Italy there were so many anime that TV broadcasted more Japanese Animation than Americans during the 70s, the 80's, the 90's and early 2000, lot of people on their fifties at least knows Anime like Harlock, Le rose di Versailles or Lupin III. For example my mother loved Candy Candy and Georgie!

I don't think this is that true any more. Apps like Netflix and now Crunchyroll and Funimation and so on have made getting access to anime far easier for many people. Not only older or finished shows but getting quick access to the latest episodes of currently airing shows. When you've got Bill Burr riffing on One Punch Man after it hit Netflix I think anime is probably more prevalent and wide spread than ever before.

Hell if anything shows you anime is still popular or gaining in popularity is Netflix starting to invest in producing its own anime shows. Let's not forget Netflix is in the process of letting Yuasa (Ping Pong, Tatami Galaxy) make a brand new Devil Man anime or that they're making things like Castlevania.

I don't know how people can take shows like Rick and Morty or Bojack seriously. It's a fucking talking horse/drunk scientist.

Bojack Horseman is a more raw and earnest look at things like depression and failing or troubled relationships than most every other show on TV, live action or otherwise. To call that show a scathing look at American life is an understatement.

 

[MysteryQuesadilla]

I started a thread earlier today after reading this exact article. I can identify with the author to an extent in that I'm exposed to anime but like a lot of other subgenres or music, film, or art the culture around it can be a little intimidating for newcomers.

 

[Ratrat]

I don't think this is that true any more. Apps like Netflix and now Crunchyroll and Funimation and so on have made getting access to anime far easier for many people. Not only older or finished shows but getting quick access to the latest episodes of currently airing shows. When you've got Bill Burr riffing on One Punch Man after it hit Netflix I think anime is probably more prevalent and wide spread than ever before.

Hell if anything shows you anime is still popular or gaining in popularity is Netflix starting to invest in producing its own anime shows. Let's not forget Netflix is in the process of letting Yuasa (Ping Pong, Tatami Galaxy) make a brand new Devil Man anime or that they're making things like Castlevania.

Well Netflix launched in Japan too. That means exclusive content including dramas and comedy shows that no one out of Japan would watch.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Those are things we think we should be uncomfortable about. Not actual polemics. For an insight into this, look at Milo Yiannopoulos' rise to political figurehead and terminal velocity breaking fall. Milo made a career of saying "controversial" things that most of his party was already saying. He thinks Islam is "sinister," feminism is stupid, and the world revolves around him. In actuality, he was one of the most boring people on this Earth desperately trying to hide that fact. He was saying things that were "controversial" but they were a comforting, familiar kind of controversial. Topics we are used to.

I wouldn't call anything Milo does a "comforting" or familiar type of controversial. A self hating homosexual transphobic jewish nazi is definitely not what I would consider to be common.

Speaking the forbidden truth will only get you on all the TV channels if your forbidden truth is actually just the boring old conventional wisdom (or what ignorant people believe is wisdom). And then he mentions the big no-no. And voila, he is, for one second, the thing he has been trying to be all this time. He started a real controversy. Audiences are fine with racism or misogyny; people were prepared to forgive him for throwing a big online tantrum over a film he didn't like; plenty of stuffy columnists didn't mind him encouraging American college students to inform the immigration authorities on any suspiciously Mexican-seeming classmates. But appearing to be relaxed about fucking kids is a step too far.

Everything he did was a step too far.

And that's where anime tends to toe the line and black itself out. When you start leaving controversial topics and go anywhere near true polemics, it's game over. That's why anime is uncomfortable, because the shady parts of it approach something we don't even discuss in our most academic circles.

I mean, there are films about child exploitation and underage sexualization but there are for the most part about how those things are inherently bad. The shady parts of anime normalize those things completely, at a blazingly common degree, and that normalization includes nicknames like "otaku bait."

Really. Suggest that article to your editor and they will ask you if you ever want to publish a paper for the rest of your life. Parts of anime approach a gnawing abyss that sucks the greatest bastions of art along with it - Nobakov is the only one who has ever escaped this abyss. It is an unfortunate aspect of the industry. I am drunk. Cut to credits.

What?

I don't know how people can take shows like Rick and Morty or Bojack seriously. It's a fucking talking horse/drunk scientist.

Because they talk about the human condition through a nihilistic point of view. Which a lot of comedy does but they take it to a much further:

and more often then not whether it's through dialogue or pure visuals shows the effects of crippling depression in a way a lot of people can relate to:

There's a ton of animated films that feature characters who're stricly animals but do well to speak on the human condition. As long as the audience can relate then it doesn't matter, like Zootopia being a clear reflection of racism in modern America:

or just the relatability of the fact that lots of people have grandmas who insist on feeding them:

So if you're boiling it down to "they're "x!" How can people take this seriously?" You're largely missing what's important and why people connect with these shows and films.

 

[HStallion]

Well Netflix launched in Japan too. That means exclusive content including dramas and comedy shows that no one out of Japan would watch.

Yeah I noticed there was a large influx of live action Japanese shows.

 

[thebaroness]

I came here almost exclusively to gush over Samurai Champloo.

I'd recommend it to anyone who says they don't like anime. It's from the same director as Cowboy Bebop, but is a little less dour in tone. It's got similar themes and heavy feelings, but I think the characters are more fun. The OST is also God Tier

It's got everything I could ask for in a show.

Style AF

Humor

Feels

I mean I DARE someone to watch the baseball episode and NOT laugh.

 

[thebaroness]

He should have watched Sword Art Online.

You monster. SoA makes me uncontrollably angry.

 

[ZdkDzk]

Part of the reason why it's hard to get into or recomend anime is that a) a lot of it is explicitly made for teenagers/otakus, and b) most current anime fans got into anime as teens through "a)". The gateway anime for most fans (and the largest percentage of anime produced) is mediocre by design.

And it's not like that's all anime has to offer. The entire reason I got into anime was because it was so different from western tv/film, and from show to show. But that difference can make it really hard for people unfamiliar with it to understand or appreciate an anime for what it is, rather than how it fails to be like what they're used to.

Off the top of my head, 7 9/10+ anime with few to no tropes

Mushishi: a slow, sometimes surealist anthology series about a man traveling and researching otherworldly creatures called Mushi
Welcome to the NHK: a black comedy about about anxiety and depression. It stars a 21 yo unemployed shut-in, who on his first day of college started suffering from severe anxiety and eventually agoraphobia which left him locked in his one bedroom apartment for 3 years.
Wandering Son: the story of 2 transgender kids (1 boy, 1 girl) growing up, and the struggles they face both internally and externally.
Technolyzs: a dark, dour, depressing dystopian future about the base nature humanity, classism, transhumanism etc... A cyberpunk story that isn't a direct rip of blade runner.
FLCL: an absurd, high octane comedy/action (not) coming of age, 6 episode (not) amv for the (not) Japanese Pixies cover band the Pillows about giant robots, guitars, puberty, and what it means to be an "adult".
Hajime no Ippo: fun Japanese Rocky
Nichijou: over the top gag series about the normal life of 3 highschool girls and a mostly unrelated family of a genius 8yo, her robot/older sister surrogate, and their talking cat.

In order: to borring/slow/not enough plot; who wants to watch a looser deal with depression for 26 episodes; that's not my thing/but what's it about; it's too depressing; it's too weird; but it's animated sports; it looks like anime.

I can count the number of non-anime fans who would sit down and watch most of these shows on 1 hand. It's easier to just throw out Attack on Titan (which isn't bad) or whatever the new popular isekai is and hope they stick around long enough to see the 7-10s and learn to appreciate them despite their tropes.

 

[NandoGip]

I dont think id like this guy in real life

Seems so judgemental

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Nichijou: over the top gag series about the normal life of 3 highschool girls and a mostly unrelated family of a genius 8yo, her robot/older sister surrogate, and their talking cat.

 

[King Gilga]

I don't know how people can take shows like Rick and Morty or Bojack seriously. It's a fucking talking horse/drunk scientist.

Because Bojack is a good show and anime is not.

 

[Izayoi]

Thank you for the in-depth breakdown - I've subbed the thread and I will give them a shot this week/weekend

Ancient Magus Bride is touching and heartfelt. STRONG recommendation from me.

 

[RRockman]

Mobile Suit Gundam 0079

Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket

Mobile Suit Gundam: 08th MS Team

Naoki Urasawa's Monster

Paranoia Agent

Trigun

All of these tackle mature themes in a very respectable manner. These are shows with class and are a cut above the fodder that is currently airing.
There are more shows out there that are just as good in quality but you have to dig for it. These are just the ones that came to mind just now.


EDIT: How the monkey bump did all of those people in the article no once mention gundam and even recommend ed EVA over it? Showing EVA to someone new to the medium is like taking a person who is beginning to like reading and shoving Finnegan's Wake into his face. It would be incomprehensible.

 

[KazenY2J]

Got is overrated but even at it's worst it's still better than any anime show.

The only people who think anime shows are anywhere near the level of western live action are complete irredeemable weebs.

A lot of western live action is pretty garbage though with some exceptions.
Just say you don't like anime and go.

 

[BGBW]

I'm sorry, but when almost the entire content of a medium can only be recommended with the caveat of 'yeah it's full of creepy perverted views toward women and a lot of dumb unnecessary violence but it's still good and worth your time I swear', I'm not watching.

I used to like anime mostly because I usually prefer Japanese art styles, but now I'm not touching anime with a ten foot pole.

I mean, I still like a lot of Ghilbi films and some serialized anime like Serial Experiments Lain, but there's such a disproportionate amount of shit that I just can't bother anymore.

Pro Tip: You don't have to watch every anime show out there.

And I've never seen a single person post a recommendation with that line.

 

[DVCY201]

Since we're talking favs.... I think Evangelion 100% lives up to the hype. I've watched through the series 3x starting in my 20s and now most recently in my early 30s. No childhood nostalgia here... just my cold adult brain thinking it really is a work of art.

I guess its not for everyone. But for me it hits the essential two categories of "fun and cool adolescent fantasy" as well as "depressed introspective psychological thriller that has you reflect on the meaning of life". That's about as close to a perfect work of entertainment that I can imagine.

I have yet to encounter a single piece of fiction that has impacted me as much as Evangelion. It's perfect to me, even with its shortcomings.

The medium has SOO MUCH GREAT content. I think there's a lot to love about anime, but the industry has HUGE issues; fetishism and overworking. But, fortunately, it is easy to not watch those shows. You can still acknowledge the issues the industry has, while appreciating what it does right

I will forever recommend that everyone watches Ping Pong the Animation. It is brilliant.

 

[BGBW]

Even the Dorne plotline of GoT has generally better acting than you'll find in anime. And again, still a way larger sense of tension during fight scenes even when everyone makes it out alive. Hell even when the nudity is gratuitous it serves a larger point and feels less out of place than underage schoolgirl panty shots.

I'm sorry, but Game of Thrones is a Lord of the Ring knock-off for lonely basement dwelling Dungeons and Dragon players whose only female interaction is when they shout to their mum to make dinner. Of course I'm not basing this on any research, but since it's fantasy I know what I'm saying is fact.

 

[TDLink]

But your list suggests a really shallow history with the medium tbh.

You're reading me wrong. I haven't seen everything out there (especially stuff that hasn't had a western release), but my knowledge is not at all shallow. I've seen far far too much anime if anything. I was really into it growing up as a teen and looking back on the stuff I watched now, I can acknowledge most of it was garbage.

If this is a parody it's a pretty good one.

I could see how it could be read that way. And actually laughed to myself upon re-reading it as if it was one lol.

What an odd thing to say. To say you're missing out on some constantly recommended amazing shows is an understatement.

Ok, like what? I am always willing to take more suggestions and find great shows and films.

I'll say this, there are several I have enjoyed that I didn't list (like Legend of the Galactic Heroes) for several different reasons (for that one it is dry and extremely inaccessible to anyone unwilling to be immersed, even if ultimately good).

Anime can be good but anime fans are the worst and they largely give you terrible recommendations that will make anime more off putting. If you want good recommendations, you have to dig deep and probably look at people that are film enthusiasts.

Last one I caught snippets of was My Hero Academia and I thought it was terrible.

Yeah I completely agree with this. I also had a few people convince me to watch My Hero Academia and came to the same conclusion.

I'm really into television and film in general (it's literally my whole life) so I feel like I can speak from a pretty good place when it comes to the medium.

Of course, lots of people like garbage. And that's perfectly alright. There's a reason there's so much of it and it's so successful.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm sorry, but Game of Thrones is a Lord of the Ring knock-off for lonely basement dwelling Dungeons and Dragon players whose only female interaction is when they shout to their mum to make dinner. Of course I'm not basing this on any research, but since it's fantasy I know what I'm saying is fact.

There's the whole "popular to the point of constantly setting viewership records" aspect it has going for it where no one legit thinks GoT is for basement dwelling nerds in the same way that no one thinks COD is for basement dwelling nerds.

 

[MysteryQuesadilla]

I think for me, part of barrier of getting into anime as a +30 adult is similar to the issues that certain sub genres of music have; sort of an insular attitude that's hostile (even if it's not intentional) towards newcomers.

 

[BGBW]

There's the whole "popular to the point of constantly setting viewership records" aspect it has going for it where no one legit thinks GoT is for basement dwelling nerds in the same way that no one thinks COD is for basement dwelling nerds.

Of course no one thinks COD fans are basement dwelling nerds. Most young kids have their bedroom above ground level.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Of course no one thinks COD fans are basement dwelling nerds. Most young kids have their bedroom above ground level.

COD is also played by a lot of men in their 20s and 30s. Or "dudebros," as gamers insecurely call that audience. Your GoT comparison was flawed.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

This thread does is a perfect example of ehy anime is to be avoided.

The fans are the literal definitions of obnoxious and oblivious

Besides a few choice movies you're not missing much anyways.

Weren't you the one who stated that the OW devs deserved the barrage of death threats and hate mail because they messed with your video game?

Blizzard just doesn't know how to balance games.

They don't know how to do increments, they just nerf to the ground of overbuff to the high mountains.

Just look at Hog, or Doomfist, or Ana, or death knights, or ret paladins, or anything in a blizzard game.

The intimidation is well deserved.

Sounds like you'd fit right in with the GG anime avatar crowd.

 

[BGBW]

COD is also played by a lot of men in their 20s and 30s. Or "dudebros," as gamers insecurely call that audience. Your GoT comparison was flawed.

Hang on two tiddlywinks, you were the one comparing GoT with COD, not little ol' me. If you're only here to play mind games, go to a Melee tournament.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Because Bojack is a good show and anime is not.

You're in every Anime thread I've ever bothered looking into.

Just admit you're tsundere for Anime, it's better for everyone involved.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Because Bojack is a good show and anime is not.

Oh boy another "adult" cartoon with a lazy art style that is about a Horse who drinks and does drugs (adult!) and gets sad sometimes. Man, what a piece of art. Too bad I can't take it seriously due to its lazy animation. Shows like that just don't invoke anything from me since it feels samey. If you want to do a heart punch episode, do it when I have related to the characters or the characters have been built up enough for me to care. I got sad during some of The Simpson's drama episodes because the characters were built up enough and relatable enough for me to care. There's more issues to deal with than just fucking depression and drugs.

If you want to deal with heavy themes, look the part. A show like Evagelion can deal with such themes due to its look (it looks silly sometimes, but it never breaks the atmosphere) and the way the characters are written. I'm just sick to death of this faux-Family Guy art style that alot of shows employ nowadays.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Hang on two tiddlywinks, you were the one comparing GoT with COD, not little ol' me. If you're only here to play mind games, go to a Melee tournament.

You seemed to missed the point in the comparison. The reason people don't make the assumption that GoT is for basement dwelling LOTR nerd stereotypes is because it has a hugely varied audience that's watched by everyone, in the same way that comic book movies are hugely successful in this day and age. The audience isn't incredibly specific. That's the point. To compare that to a person taking a cursory glance at anime and concluding that it's full of creepy shit is not only overselling how well accepted anime is, but also downplaying how popular GoT is.

Oh boy another "adult" cartoon with a lazy art style that is about a Horse who drinks and does drugs (adult!) and gets sad sometimes.

If the art style is so lazy then surely anyone can draw Bojack without any issues. I'd love to see you attempt to. You know, since drawing is easy.

Man, what a piece of art. Too bad I can't take it seriously due to its lazy animation.

Puppet animation isn't lazy. In a thread about anime and especially since you then prop up evangelion, you should definitely not be talking about "lazy" animation.

Spoiler

Because at least we lip sync with the damn audio

Shows like that just don't invoke anything from me since it feels samey. If you want to do a heart punch episode, do it when I have related to the characters or the characters have been built up enough for me to care.I got sad during some of The Simpson's drama episodes because the characters were built up enough and relatable enough for me to care. There's more issues to deal with than just fucking depression and drugs.

Bojack has already done this and has had four seasons already. If you're not getting it or relating that's likely on your life experiences not the writing of the show itself.

If you want to deal with heavy themes, look the part.

Read the following.

A show like Evagelion can deal with such themes due to its look (it looks silly sometimes, but it never breaks the atmosphere) and the way the characters are written. I'm just sick to death of this faux-Family Guy art style that alot of shows employ nowadays.

vs...

The only similarity is flat coloring. Neither the animation or the art direction between the two is similar. The two are so distinct from one another that you'd be more likely to find someone that thinks GoT is for basement dwelling nerds than someone who watches Bojack and thinks "Wow that looks like family guy." And since you definitely don't watch the show, they deal with way more issues than just drugs and alcohol, and handle existentialism in a much more down to earth way than evangelion. Imagine that, a horse being more relatable than a self insert teenager. Crazy what good writing is capable of.

 

[HStallion]

Oh boy another "adult" cartoon with a lazy art style that is about a Horse who drinks and does drugs (adult!) and gets sad sometimes. Man, what a piece of art. Too bad I can't take it seriously due to its lazy animation. Shows like that just don't invoke anything from me since it feels samey. If you want to do a heart punch episode, do it when I have related to the characters or the characters have been built up enough for me to care. I got sad during some of The Simpson's drama episodes because the characters were built up enough and relatable enough for me to care. There's more issues to deal with than just fucking depression and drugs.

If you want to deal with heavy themes, look the part. A show like Evagelion can deal with such themes due to its look (it looks silly sometimes, but it never breaks the atmosphere) and the way the characters are written. I'm just sick to death of this faux-Family Guy art style that alot of shows employ nowadays.

This is an eye rollingly bad hot take that makes me question if you have ever even seen Bojack outside of scrolling past it on the Netflix list. Bojack and Family Guy don't look anything alike and this gets into none of the actual content of the show itself like characters or their stories. Don't talk about things you obviously have no clue about.

 

[qcf x2]

Ok, like what? I am always willing to take more suggestions and find great shows and films.

I'll say this, there are several I have enjoyed that I didn't list (like Legend of the Galactic Heroes) for several different reasons (for that one it is dry and extremely inaccessible to anyone unwilling to be immersed, even if ultimately good).

Michiko & Hatchin
Sword of the Stranger
Wings of Honneamise
Aku no Hana
Death Parade
Steins;Gate
Ouran Host Club


There's a variety platter of atypical anime that are most definitely not garbage. The same blanket statements about quality that are applied to anime for meme purposes can be applied to anything. Most network TV dramas suck, like, the overwhelming majority of them. But that doesn't mean good ones don't exist. I'd argue that most scifi shows and movies (and indeed most movies, period) are complete trash but I think Ex Machina is fantastic and I enjoyed Arrival. And yeah it applies to anime as well, but like... not disproportionally so. It's just some oft regurgitated quip.

 

[thebaroness]

"B-b-baka! It's not like I like anime or anything!"

Since the thread is starting to de-evolve into generalizations and mud slinging, I'm just going to post some positive examples with sources, as the Sakuga slut I am.


Ping Pong (2014)

Sword of the Stranger (2009)

Mind Game (2004)

Robot Carnivale (1987)

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

This is an eye rollingly bad hot take that makes me question if you have ever even seen Bojack outside of scrolling past it on the Netflix list. Bojack and Family Guy don't look anything alike and this gets into none of the actual content of the show itself like characters or their stories. Don't talk about things you obviously have no clue about.

I've seen only one episode of the show. I didn't hate it, but I hated it's look. The shows have a simple thin line art style, with characters looking 3/4 most of the time. I just think modern adult animation is lazy and can be improved.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I've seen only one episode of the show. I didn't hate it, but I hated it's look. The shows have a simple thin line art style, with characters looking 3/4 most of the time. I just think modern adult animation is lazy and can be improved.

You're confusing budget with effort. Contrary to what people who don't draw would have you believe, there's nothing "simple" or "lazy" about drawing simple character designs. You have to have some understanding of anatomy to draw like that in the first place. The way these shows are specifically animated is the reason why characters are portrayed from similar angles, since they're rigged puppets comprised of easily switchable parts. I can tell you from experience it's not easy to animate that way and make it look convincing.

 

[HStallion]

I've seen only one episode of the show. I didn't hate it, but I hated it's look. The shows have a simple thin line art style, with characters looking 3/4 most of the time. I just think modern adult animation is lazy and can be improved.

This is like "lazy developers" on the gaming side. Come on now.

 

[thebaroness]

Wings of Honneamise (1987)

Kino's Journey (2003)

Perfect Blue (1999)

 

[thebaroness]

Haibane Renmei (2002)

Angel's Egg (1985)
*character designs by Amano*

Gunbuster (1989)

 

[ZdkDzk]

.

He's not wrong in terms of art. I wouldn't call it lazy, but a lot of adult animation in the west frames its shots like classic sitcoms, where there's only really 2 or 3 angles to view a character or room from, and they aren't actually all that different. Characters are almost always shown at 3/4, rooms from a wall, and the only time that you don't see both is when necessary information can't be conveyed from that angle. On some level it is a case of sensibly using resources, but a lot of all ages or kids animation don't rely on the sitcom approach nearly as hard. I honestly can't imagine an adult cartoon nowadays using animation to do anything that couldn't be done in live-action with relative ease (outside of something like character designs).

And in terms of art style and aesthetic, most adult animation today is very similar. Yes, when I put Family Guy and Bojack next to eachother they don't look to similar, but overall there isn't much variety. Anime, while having a lot of shows with a similar style, every season (3-4 months) there are lots of exceptions, and the default style changes every 2-3 years. That's actually part of why a lot of new, younger fans don't watch anime older than 4 or 5 years. They don't like older art styles.

I don't expect interesting shot composition, meaningful/appropriate use or color/artstyle, or for information to be conveyed via imagery and not dialauge in western adult animation. I don't demand it from anime either, but I expect it to be there, because 99/100 times an attempt is actually made.

 

[HStallion]

He's not wrong in terms of art. I wouldn't call it lazy, but a lot of adult animation in the west frames its shots like classic sitcoms, where there's only really 2 or 3 angles to view a character or room from, and they aren't actually all that different. Characters are almost always shown at 3/4, rooms from a wall, and the only time that you don't see both is when necessary information can't be conveyed from that angle. On some level it is a case of sensibly using resources, but a lot of all ages or kids animation don't rely on the sitcom approach nearly as hard. I honestly can't imagine an adult cartoon nowadays using animation to do anything that couldn't be done in live-action with relative ease (outside of something like character designs).

And in terms of art style and aesthetic, most adult animation today is very similar. Yes, when I put Family Guy and Bojack next to eachother they don't look to similar, but overall there isn't much variety. Anime, while having a lot of shows with a similar style, every season (3-4 months) there are lots of exceptions, and the default style changes every 2-3 years. That's actually part of why a lot of new, younger fans don't watch anime older than 4 or 5 years. They don't like older art styles.

I don't expect interesting shot composition, meaningful/appropriate use or color/artstyle, or for information to be conveyed via imagery and not dialauge in western adult animation. I don't demand it from anime either, but I expect it to be there, because 99/100 times an attempt is actually made.

There are actually several amazingly animated episodes of Bojack. Many of them are actually some of the darkest episodes

Spoiler

The drug trip from season 1

 

[GreenMonkey]

Kino's Journey (2003)

Kino's Journey! What a great show. My best suggestion to people that like the Star Trek TNG episodes where the crew encounters a society with different values or a different technology that has caused issues.

Like, what if everyone could read minds? Or you had robots to do everything?

It really is a lot like the ST crew showing up at a random planet.

 

[ZdkDzk]

There are actually several amazingly animated episodes of Bojack. Many of them are actually some of the darkest episodes

Spoiler

The drug trip from season 1

I haven't sat down for a full episode, but I'll believe it. I'm not saying that western animators can't go outside of that "sitcom"
zone (cosmic apotheosis from Rick and Morty is the most recent for me), or that they don't want to (a lot of the limitations are budget or tool related). But when comparing one product to another it's clear as day.

 

[Principate]

There's the whole "popular to the point of constantly setting viewership records" aspect it has going for it where no one legit thinks GoT is for basement dwelling nerds in the same way that no one thinks COD is for basement dwelling nerds.

Fairly sure a lot of anime shows are extremely popular why on earth do you think streaming services keep buying various rights to random ass shows. One pieces is the third soon to be second highest selling comic series in existence outselling combined sales of comics series from numerous authors that have existed for over half a century. The anime itself has had various metrics putting almost at the global top 10.

The most popular elements of the medium are hardly small time so your argument doesn't work based in that metric.

 

[Crossing Eden]

He's not wrong in terms of art. I wouldn't call it lazy, but a lot of adult animation in the west frames its shots like classic sitcoms, where there's only really 2 or 3 angles to view a character or room from, and they aren't actually all that different. Characters are almost always shown at 3/4, rooms from a wall, and the only time that you don't see both is when necessary information can't be conveyed from that angle. On some level it is a case of sensibly using resources, but a lot of all ages or kids animation don't rely on the sitcom approach nearly as hard. I honestly can't imagine an adult cartoon nowadays using animation to do anything that couldn't be done in live-action with relative ease (outside of something like character designs).

I explained above why that is. It's a lot of toonboom and flash animation. Adult shows, due to a smaller audience, don't get the budget of shows like adventure time, steven universe, or hell even TTGo. And the two that do, Rick and Morty and Venture Bros, take the longest to make. And although the budgets are lower, adult animation in general has come a LONNNGGG way from Aqua Teen, Brack, and Sealab 2021

And in terms of art style and aesthetic, most adult animation today is very similar. Yes, when I put Family Guy and Bojack next to eachother they don't look to similar, but overall there isn't much variety. Anime, while having a lot of shows with a similar style, every season (3-4 months) there are lots of exceptions, and the default style changes every 2-3 years. That's actually part of why a lot of new, younger fans don't watch anime older than 4 or 5 years. They don't like older art styles.

Yea I very much disagree with the assessment that there are alot of adult shows with samey aesthetics, I mean, just looking at Adult Swim's catalogue vastly flies in the face of that. The similarity lies in the way they're animated, (without taking into account the shows that deviate like Moral Orel or Robot Chicken).

I don't expect interesting shot composition, meaningful/appropriate use or color/artstyle, or for information to be conveyed via imagery and not dialauge in western adult animation. I don't demand it from anime either, but I expect it to be there, because 99/100 times an attempt is actually made.

You should as like I said above, adult animation has come a long way in a very short amount of time.

Fairly sure a lot of anime shows are extremely popular why on earth do you think streaming services keep buying various rights to random asks shows. One pieces is the third soon to be second highest selling comic series in existence outselling combined sales of comics series from numerous authors that have existed for over half a century. The anime itself has had various metrics putting almost at the global top 10

The most popular elements of the medium are hardly small time.

Popular but not incredibly accepted in social settings. Making a GoT comparison quite useless in this scenario aside from the showrunners really doing a good job making "nerdy" material palatable to a much broader audience.

 

[petran79]

Like I said several pages ago. The most obnoxious fans are also the most loudest. Heck. I have over 1000 volumes of manga here, watched anime since the 90s, worked with an anime publishing company for some years and sadly the western fanbase, while it was more mature in the end of the 90s/beginning of 00s, fell down the cliff, when the "boom" happened around 2003/2004. Conventions were flooded with "kids", younger folks. Genres which were popular before are now niche.

And people tried to recommend Elfenlied as a mature anime, because it was gory.

Sadly the fanbase is actually imo what drives a lot of people away from anime and can give people, like the one in the OP, a wrong image of what it can actually offer. You still have stuff like Tatami Galaxy, Kaiba, Uchouten Kazoku, Shinsekai Yori, Ping Pong, Aku no Hana etc.
It is just that those are not talked about them as much as SAO, AoT or (before) ToLoveRu are. And so, even old anime/manga-fans, who were into anime before assume thats all that the medium has to offer.

You could check out the biggest manga message board in Germany where every publisher is present and see what is talked about in those specific boards and which manga are popular or not. I mean even then, check out a thread and you see that people love to talk about the seme-uke relationships of a BL manga, discuss which pairing would be better etc.
You can then compare it to the same boards on the same message boards of franco-belgian publishers.

Even then, Germany did not have an animation and comics publishing and production industry to the same levels with France and Belgium. Regarding Japanese animation and manga, France and Italy were the leaders in Europe in viewers and readers. If you compare the prime time TV anime of France,Spain and Italy since the 80s, it is is much larger and with more variety than Germany and the USA.
Anime culture was already solid in those countries.

In Greece 80s children's TV was an eclectic and competitive medley: American and European cartoons, classic anime series popular in Europe and animated series and films from USSR and Socialist Europe. Only reason I did not regret wasting my time on TV.

 

[Lumpy Onion]

Kino's Journey (2003)

This show was amazing. Not even drawn or animated particularly well but I found the themes it touched on to be really thought provoking. Great little stories touching on various aspects of human nature. I appreciated it's episodic nature and how each new place he visited had it's own situation or dilemma. Loved the one about the three men he meets on a snowy pass.

 

[TDLink]

Michiko & Hatchin
Sword of the Stranger
Wings of Honneamise
Aku no Hana
Death Parade
Steins;Gate
Ouran Host Club


There's a variety platter of atypical anime that are most definitely not garbage. The same blanket statements about quality that are applied to anime for meme purposes can be applied to anything. Most network TV dramas suck, like, the overwhelming majority of them. But that doesn't mean good ones don't exist. I'd argue that most scifi shows and movies (and indeed most movies, period) are complete trash but I think Ex Machina is fantastic and I enjoyed Arrival. And yeah it applies to anime as well, but like... not disproportionally so. It's just some oft regurgitated quip.

I also thought Ex Machina was fantastic, so I'll give you some credence. Out of those I've only seen Steins;Gate, which I was not at all a fan of. Though I will give you that it was at least adult and not typical garbage anime.

I'll check out some of your other recs (some of which the last few posters have posted intriguing images of). In fact several of the last few posters have presented some that look potentially interesting to me. And that's great. I'm looking forward to investigating them. They're certainly not the norm though, and that's evident by the fact that most are like 20-30+ years old.

Television in general has a lot of fantastic shows that are not garbage. By comparison, anime probably has around a couple dozen. The same few things are recommended time and again. You can see it in this thread. Even my recommendations, I believe most were recommended by others as well. Anime films (not based on tv series) tend to fare a bit better than series and err on the side of good, but you still have to wade through a lot of crap.

Now, Network TV is absolutely largely garbage, but most outside of the industry don't actually break it down like that. By specifying Network TV you are intentionally filtering out all the great stuff found at places like HBO, Showtime, STARZ, Cinemax, FX, AMC, USA, NETFLIX, Amazon, and more. The TV landscape has shifted and "Network TV" is no longer the only game in town, or the norm. The real difference is these cable and streaming outlets are allowing creators more freedom to tell the stories they want to and not forcing them into 20+ episode seasons where they have to churn out stuff on a weekly basis. This raises the quality of the shows and budget per episode. Plus attracts better talent both in front of and behind the camera.

All that said, there are still great shows that come out of network TV from time to time. And certainly plenty of examples from 10+ years ago before the real advent of all these other options.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

You're confusing budget with effort. Contrary to what people who don't draw would have you believe, there's nothing "simple" or "lazy" about drawing simple character designs. You have to have some understanding of anatomy to draw like that in the first place. The way these shows are specifically animated is the reason why characters are portrayed from similar angles, since they're rigged puppets comprised of easily switchable parts. I can tell you from experience it's not easy to animate that way and make it look convincing.

This is like "lazy developers" on the gaming side. Come on now.

Oh -- trust me I know. I understand a bit of anatomy and drawing draftsmanship (I myself dabble in it, I'm not very good though haha!). I understand why it looks simple but I wish it didn't. The problem with American animation is that its gives a small budget to the animators to express themselves. And it's aggravating, but it's whatever. I just dislike the Family Guy-esque art style, is all.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh -- trust me I know. I understand a bit of anatomy and drawing draftsmanship (I myself dabble in it, I'm not very good though haha!). I understand why it looks simple but I wish it didn't. The problem with American animation is that its gives a small budget to the animators to express themselves. And it's aggravating, but it's whatever. I just dislike the Family Guy-esque art style, is all.

Now imagine a place where the budgets in general are even lower and the general animator salary is comparable to a part time job despite the incredibly bad working conditions.....along with a writing team that isn't allowed to express themselves due to having to appeal to a niche market.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Now imagine a place where the budgets in general are even lower and the general animator salary is comparable to a part time job despite the incredibly bad working conditions.....along with a writing team that isn't allowed to express themselves due to having to appeal to a niche market.

No need to imagine it when its real!

 

[PixelatedBookake]

Okay to the people in this thread who don't like anime, you should really check out Nichijou. I know it's "moe" or whatever. But it's really goddamn funny. I don't even like those moe type shows and I think Nichijou is awesome.

 

[Crossing Eden]

No need to imagine it when its real!

It sure is. :|