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[GreenMonkey]

During this thread I've counted at least thirty different recommendations from a dozen different posters, with little agreement among any of them, something also documented in the OP article. Worse, several other posters have basically said that you should just sit around watching a dozen different shows until you "find something you like," as if grown adults have hundreds of hours to waste on a medium they've already told you they aren't hugely interested in. What if I walked into a Best Buy, told the salesperson that I don't know much about TVs and asked for a recommendation, and his response was "Dude, there are thousands of different types of TVs, just buy and return them until you find one you like"? I'd turn around and walk out.

You have to say "Hey I like these movies and TV shows, any anime recommendations?"

Instead, you're basically saying the equivalent of "Recommend me a movie or TV show". At best you're saying "Recommend me a foreign film".

You're gonna get 8000 different answers to that question, all over the map in styles and popularity and genres. Just like you're getting for anime.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Sorry, but I have yet to watch a single episode of it myself despite so many suggestions. He's right anime has a branding problem, and IMO a lot of it is bad.

I had people suggest SAO, Steins Gate, AOT, and dozens of others and they all disappointed. Not to mention when I got outside of those listed above, and into the other suggestions with less recognizable names like the Vampire one (forgot the name) and TLR (I'll admit I didn't watch this one in order, but I didn't feel I needed to in order to identify that it was trashy half naked teen girl filled garbage) all it really did was solidify that "image" of the average anime viewer in my eyes. The shit was terrible.

I may get around to Bebop, after all another one I watched was a 2 season recent anime (forgot the name) about cooks cooking food. And although it was yet another school setting (stop this shit please) I didn't hate it. I actually like it except for the fact that whenever someone in the show enjoyed a meal they basically orgasmed over it, lol.

Still that's a 1 and like 20 record so far. I don't feel like big anime fans have the high ground to assault my taste considering the shit that's going on in this particular branch of entertainment.

Bebop has it's moments because the creator was influenced by things besides other anime. It's main flaw is that the main villain is hilariously derivative, a guy who with white hair and a katana named Vicious who looks like a castlevania reject.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Sorry, but I have yet to watch a single episode of it myself despite so many suggestions. He's right anime has a branding problem, and IMO a lot of it is bad.

I had people suggest SAO, Steins Gate, AOT, and dozens of others and they all disappointed. Not to mention when I got outside of those listed above, and into the other suggestions with less recognizable names like the Vampire one (forgot the name) and TLR (I'll admit I didn't watch this one in order, but I didn't feel I needed to in order to identify that it was trashy half naked teen girl filled garbage) all it really did was solidify that "image" of the average anime viewer in my eyes. The shit was terrible.

I may get around to Bebop, after all another one I watched was a 2 season recent anime (forgot the name) about cooks cooking food. And although it was yet another school setting (stop this shit please) I didn't hate it. I actually like it except for the fact that whenever someone in the show enjoyed a meal they basically orgasmed over it, lol.

Still that's a 1 and like 20 record so far. I don't feel like big anime fans have the high ground to assault my taste considering the shit that's going on in this particular branch of entertainment.

I'm kind of surprised that Shokugeki no Soma is the one anime you found that you like, given its stereotypical shounen nature, but then it sounds like you haven't found people who are able to give good recommendations to you unfortunately. (Why would anyone recommend To Love Ru to someone who isn't primarily looking for sexual titillation?)

 

[MattKeil]

Could you name a few shows you have in mind? The only one that comes to my mind is Breaking Bad, but that was violent and about drugs and not quite as thematically subtle as Bebop.

Holy shit.

 

[opoth]

Just like everything, 95% of it is shit.

Unfortunately, the rub (and the source of its general bad reputation) is that the people in this country who like the 95% that's shit are dickheads with small wangs and small brains who seem to have a major overlapping interest with the alt-right and their shitty/creepy attitude toward women and minorities.

As someone who legitimately loved watching stuff like Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star in the early 2000s, it's an unfortunate stain on the genre.

 

[Ratrat]

Just like everything, 95% of it is shit.

Unfortunately, the rub (and the source of its general bad reputation) is that the people in this country who like the 95% that's shit are dickheads with small wangs and small brains who seem to have a major overlapping interest with the alt-right and their shitty/creepy attitude toward women and minorities.

Goodbye.
Edit: Okay, I think I probably read that wrong. Its still pretty over the top, not unlike other posts agreeing with the article.

 

[Sadsic]

is anime really a medium? its more like a nationalistic/geographical genre of animation if anything

like 2d animation as a whole is a medium - what distinguishes anime as being a "medium" on its own?

this would be similar to calling bollywood a "medium"

also, the whole argument of calling anime a medium or genre is pretty semantic and doesnt really get to the meaning of the argument at all - whether anime can be judged as a whole and whether its subjectively "good" or not

anime as a whole is written extremely shitty imo compared to other forms of fiction - and i really liked anime as a teenager and would still say something like cowboy bebop or evangelion is really worth watching and thinking about

the argument people usually make against this is that 95% of every "medium/genre" is shit but if you actually look at western live action tv right now theres an incredible amount of amazing content being created in the last 5-10 years, with many tv shows i think being subjectively "better" or more interesting than any anime ive seen by far imo

also theres probably just way more western tv shows anyways - we are close to peak tv so if you have like 700 new shows in one year and only 5% are amazing you still have 35 new great shows to watch

 

[opoth]

Goodbye.

It's heartbreaking because I like the general idea of the genre/artform, but the stereotypical subject matter and attendant fanbase are a turnoff to me.

Not trying to troll/flame here, but what are some recommendations for someone who isn't a creep?

I mean that sincerely - I'd like to check out a modern anime that doesn't lean on tropes sexualizing teenage girls and/or "power levels". I'm all ears.

 

[Ratrat]

How is it a genre? There are no rules other than it being animated by hand, cg or stop motion. Make sense of that.

It's heartbreaking because I like the general idea of the genre/artform, but the stereotypical subject matter and attendant fanbase are a turnoff to me.

Not trying to troll/flame here, but what are some recommendations for someone who isn't a creep?

I mean that sincerely - I'd like to check out a modern anime that doesn't lean on tropes sexualizing teenage girls and/or "power levels". I'm all ears.

Oh, so your first post wasn't an informed one? How surprising. There are plenty of recs in this thread from people who genuinely love the medium.

I dont personally. I havent seen a recent show since Yamato 2199. Just here to point out obvious delusions people have or question misinformation.

 

[Sadsic]

How is it a genre? There are no rules other than it being animated. Make sense of that.

genre/medium is semantic and made up words and who cares

but clearly you can judge anime as a whole cuz lots of people are doing it and it is not comparable/equal to judging film as a whole because you are not judging animation as a whole by judging anime

 

[Ratrat]

genre/medium is semantic and made up words and who cares

but clearly you can judge anime as a whole cuz lots of people are doing it and it is not comparable/equal to judging film as a whole because you are not judging animation as a whole by judging anime

What. What. What.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

You guys are making this genre vs medium vs whateverthefuck thing too complicated. I was watching this thing on Japanese TV awhile back, and they referred to The Simpsons as a "popular American Anime". Anime is just what people in Japan call cartoons ffs.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

It's heartbreaking because I like the general idea of the genre/artform, but the stereotypical subject matter and attendant fanbase are a turnoff to me.

Not trying to troll/flame here, but what are some recommendations for someone who isn't a creep?

I mean that sincerely - I'd like to check out a modern anime that doesn't lean on tropes sexualizing teenage girls and/or "power levels". I'm all ears.

That's a broad question, so it's pretty easy to answer. Here's a handful of recent anime that meet that criteria:

The Ancient Magus' Bride
Battery the Animation
The Great Passage
Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu
A Silent Voice

 

[opoth]

How is it a genre? There are no rules other than it being animated by hand, cg or stop motion. Make sense of that.


Oh, so your first post wasn't an informed one? How surprising. There are plenty of recs in this thread from people who genuinely love the medium.

I dont personally. I havent seen a recent show since Yamato 2199. Just here to point out obvious delusions people have or question misinformation.

Never tried to imply it was "informed" - my old roommate is the only person I know personally who is still in the loop on whats happening with current anime and as I said, in general it's not really speaking to me as a married 40 year old man.

I'd like to like something newish in the genre that works outside of the negative tropes that I mentioned in my last post, so i will read more of the thread.

 

[opoth]

That's a broad question, so it's pretty easy to answer. Here's a handful of recent anime that meet that criteria:

The Ancient Magus' Bride
Battery the Animation
The Great Passage
Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu
A Silent Voice

Thank you.

 

[Erheller]

It's heartbreaking because I like the general idea of the genre/artform, but the stereotypical subject matter and attendant fanbase are a turnoff to me.

Not trying to troll/flame here, but what are some recommendations for someone who isn't a creep?

I mean that sincerely - I'd like to check out a modern anime that doesn't lean on tropes sexualizing teenage girls and/or "power levels". I'm all ears.

There's a lot. Here are a few of my favorites.

Hyouka: An excellent character drama disguised as mystery slice-of-life. Uses its compelling characters to explore complex themes. Also looks fantastic, and is probably the best-looking slice-of-life ever made.

Ping Pong The Animation: First and foremost a character drama before a sports anime. Follows a wide cast of table tennis players who reach for the stars, fall somewhere short along the way, and become better people because of it. The show also don't treat you like an idiot by narrating every single stroke during the matches.

Shirobako: It's an anime about anime production. One of Shirobako's greatest strengths is that despite its often-exaggerated characters and situations, there are always small moments where you can completely relate to the characters. Seeing a text from an old friend and ignoring it because there's a deadline coming up. Grabbing dinner with a coworker and complaining about work. Calling your parents while putting dinner into the microwave. It's moments like these that truly make Shirobako memorable.
Explores a lot of themes about creating things - what happens when you want to pursue your dream but find that you come up short? What if the thing that you want to do doesn't pay? What happens when you make something, but people don't like it?

Edit:

That's a broad question, so it's pretty easy to answer. Here's a handful of recent anime that meet that criteria:

The Ancient Magus' Bride
Battery the Animation
The Great Passage
Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu
A Silent Voice

I'll also vouch for all of these, except Battery (I haven't seen it)

 

[Sadsic]

What. What. What.

just trying to get to the end of this cycle of general anime critique > general anime defense force > general anime critique tit for tat that ive watched for about 20 years

theres like 1 billion critiques of anime you can levy and seemingly very few arguments that people can make to defend it

it seems like theres been the same few argument tactics by anime fans for as long as i can remember:

"anime is a medium not a genre so you cant judge all of it as a whole, that would be like judging film/tv/music etc as a whole"

"95% of every medium is shit and anime isnt any different"

"anime 1, 2 and 3 are in top 10 of best shows of all time period so anime has to be good"

clearly there are problems that are specific to the anime/manga industry as a whole when it comes to the subjective quality of the fiction (and im not going to list them), and many people judge anime/manga based on that, and thats not necessarily good or bad, it just is

 

[opoth]

There's a lot. Here are a few of my favorites

I'll also vouch for all of these, except Battery (I haven't seen it)

Thank you for the in-depth breakdown - I've subbed the thread and I will give them a shot this week/weekend

 

[Ratrat]

Saying its a medium is not deflecting all criticism.
I guess your point is that saying 'this otakubait show is too pervy for me!' Or 'this popular shounen has awful writing!'
would be accurate but make you look dumb. Therefore people feel the need to make vague statements and generalize.

Not sure why you brought in manga, as thats a lot easier to defend.

 

[Sadsic]

Saying its a medium is not deflecting all criticism.
I guess your point is that saying 'this otakubait show is too pervy for me!' Or 'this popular shounen has awful writing!'
would be accurate but make you look dumb. Therefore people feel the need to make vague statements and generalize.

Not sure why you brought in manga, as thats a lot easier to defend.

im not really making a singular point cuz i dont think in linear patterns but i just think anime can be judged as a whole and i would personally judge it poorly if i were to do so and many other people do too somewhat due to ignorance and somewhat due to a menagerie of subjectively valid criticism that most anime fans themselves would also agree with, and to a larger degree, that all of this is subjective and cannot really be "proven" and has no real defined answer at the end of the day

i would in general steer clear of fictional prescriptivism and rather tell people to take the journey of the zeitgeist by themselves - what the self thinks of something will always be more important than what others think of something

 

[captainpat]

Some posts in this thread are reminding why I don't bother with recommendation threads, especially if the person is coming in skeptical. There's so much digestible information out there that they can't be bothered to just google it then it's hopeless for them. Ton entertainment out there I don't understand why anyone needs to force themselves to like or understand all of it.

 

[Stiler]

I love some anime, Berserk is my favorite, then there's Vampire Hunter D, Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, etc.

One thing that gets on my nerves though is when an anime spends like 80% of it's time with characters literally having a mental breakdown and basically "pouring their hearts out" like every bloody time they talk.

This season of Attack on Titan? That was filled to the brim with it, just constantly they'd be in the middle of action/fighting and then it'd cut to a character crying and screaming some pogiant heartfelt story and it gets REALLY old really quick when some animes think that every other scene has to be like that.

 

[Ratrat]

im not really making a singular point cuz i dont think in linear patterns but i just think anime can be judged as a whole and i would personally judge it poorly if i were to do so and many other people do too somewhat due to ignorance and somewhat due to a menagerie of subjectively valid criticism that most anime fans themselves would also agree with, and to a larger degree, that all of this is subjective and cannot really be "proven" and has no real defined answer at the end of the day

i would in general steer clear of fictional prescriptivism and rather tell people to take the journey of the zeitgeist by themselves - what the self thinks of something will always be more important than what others think of something

...
Yeah, about sums up the kinds of criticism I've seen so far. There is no point at all.
You know, its completely fine to dislike something just because it doesnt align with your tastes. Just leave it at that instead of trying to dig into stuff you know little about to prove your tastes are right or whatever.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

It's heartbreaking because I like the general idea of the genre/artform, but the stereotypical subject matter and attendant fanbase are a turnoff to me.

Not trying to troll/flame here, but what are some recommendations for someone who isn't a creep?

I mean that sincerely - I'd like to check out a modern anime that doesn't lean on tropes sexualizing teenage girls and/or "power levels". I'm all ears.

nichijou. It's a show about 3 girls in High school, but its highly entertaining and shys away from highly sexualized situations. It's pure, innocent comedy that just puts you in a good mood.

 

[Mulgrok]

Black Lagoon is good if you want a pulpy 90's action show inspired by tarantino

Silver Spoon is good if you want a slice of life show about japanese agriculture highschool

Psycho Pass season 1 (2 is trash) is a good dystopian sci-fi show

Those are the only non-tropey stuff I have watched.

EDIT: oh ya, there is the BLAME! movie on Netflix. another sci-fi movie based on some surreal abstract stuff.

EDIT2: I think everyone should watch Gintama, one of the first shows I watched and it was fun even though I had no idea what 90% of the referential humor was about. (skip the first 2-3 episodes because they are not good)

 

[RM8]

I find 99% of it repulsive and I don't fancy struggling to find something I remotely enjoy. More power to people who have the patience and dedication, though, I just see no value in it. And to be fair I also don't watch western series, but mostly because I don't enjoy episodic narrative content I guess.

 

[michaelius]

I apologize on behalf of everyone who recommends SAO unironically.

Yeah it feels like someone made a trolling recommendation since even people who like it mostly do it for setting and idea - not for anime quality.

 

[petran79]

I find 99% of it repulsive and I don't fancy struggling to find something I remotely enjoy. More power to people who have the patience and dedication, though, I just see no value in it. And to be fair I also don't watch western series, but mostly because I don't enjoy episodic narrative content I guess.

I agree about quality issue,but my biggest trauma was watching that Slim Shady cartoon back then. Havent recovered since. Now that I think about it,many American cartoons of this sort are deeply buried and forgotten.

One reason I appreciate Panty and Stocking so much. Elevated Flash cartoon aesthetic and scatology to a whole new level

 

[Haly]

Yeah it feels like someone made a trolling recommendation since even people who like it mostly do it for setting and idea - not for anime quality.

Nah, not really a troll rec. Just, it's the Ready Player One of anime and a lot of Westerners like Ready Player One despite its... flaws. Hell it's getting a movie and the movie will probably do well financially but I can't in good conscience recommend the book to anyone.

School Days is troll rec.

Tangentially related, when it comes to American TV there are many series widely considered "great", the aforementioned The Wire and The Sopranos and my personal favorite, Band of Brothers. There is definitely some kind of "consensus" as far as mainstream culture is concerned.

There is no such consensus in the Western anime fan world beyond "Ghibli", which is why recommendations from strangers are always a crapshoot. Weebs watch anime for any number of reasons and they might not mesh at all with the average western TV viewer.

 

[Laiza]

Admittedly there are some near-universal cliches that still put me off.

In fact, for the sake of getting it off my chest (har, har), let me list a few:

1. Breast Envy - I swear to all the gods at least 90% of anime will have at least one idiotic and insulting sequence of breast envy shoved somewhere in there and I fucking HATE it. Takes me out every time. (If it has it, it's usually not just once, either.) I especially hate how subversions of this stupid trope are so incredibly goddamn rare, because vulnerability and insecurity are "moe" or some shit, I dnno. All I know is I want to punch someone every time this happens. In the face. Because it's just plain rage-inducing.

2. Nonsensical sexy female outfits - Ubiquitous. At least 95% of anime. The 5% are either niche series or usually either kid's shows or have kids as protags. Even then, kid's shows (see: shounen) will have tons of this shit and it bothers the hell out of me. Look, I'm not stingy about this - if the guys get a ton of outfits that are equally stupid and impractical for the sexy, I'm not gonna complain. Unfortunately, this is simply not the case. It's extremely transparent what the aim is every time it happens, and it's always, ALWAYS heavily skewed towards one sex over the other.

3. Stupid voyeuristic camera angles on scantily clad women - Even in a show about cute girls making games, you have tons of this shit. Why? Why, gods? I just wanted to watch cute girls cutely making cute games and you have to throw this shit in my face? I mean, what the fuck, dude?

4. Female characters with zero self-awareness - Ubiquitous. (Are you sensing a trend yet? You should be.) I don't even want to address this one with any depth because, frankly, this is just terrible writing and everyone who's ever created a series that doesn't attempt to address this directly is wasting my time. It's a particularly important point because it's asymptomatic of the industry's general inability to write from life instead of tropey nonsense.

5. Lame generic self-insert male protags who magically attract women - GTFO. I don't watch series with these characters for very obvious reasons. Fortunately, that meant I got to skip the trainwreck that is SAO.

6. The hot spring / beach episode - I understand why they're there. I don't care. Stop with the cliches already. At the very least, something important and story-relevant has to happen here or it's just another stupid excuse for lame fanservice.

Anyway, enough ranting for now. I've gotta move on. It's just that I've been consuming stuff from Japan for so many years and, gods, so little has changed. It's depressing. I'm making myself sad just thinking about it. Why am I even here?

Spoiler

Just to suffer?

I just want to see them do better, man...

 

[TickleMeElbow]

In fact, for the sake of getting it off my chest (har, har), let me list a few:

1. Breast Envy - I swear to all the gods at least 90% of anime will have at least one idiotic and insulting sequence of breast envy shoved somewhere in there and I fucking HATE it.

Not even close.

 

[Haly]

Watch Shirobako, Laiza. New Game is trash and it belongs in the trash with all of other Dogakobo's other anime (except for Nozaki-kun).

 

[Galang]

Funny at the first posts mocking the author for not liking Bebop. There's sooooo much anime under every genre and there's surely something for everyone if given the chance. Sometimes a show never clicks and it's not because of the quality... it just doesn't? Why get so angry about it? It's not serious on any level.. The fanbase really does anime no favours. I never got into Bebop, but love Samurai Champloo. I thought I would hate AoT based on posts on here, but I ended up loving it. If I didn't have the patience as a child I don't think I'd have given anime a chance at all... it's very hard knowing where to start.

 

[BlackDoomShadow]

The handling of female characters in anime is frustrating. Several pages back I asked for an anime that meets my definition of well-defined three-dimensional female characters and didn't receive any responses. I've also asked this question to other anime fans in the past and tend to get very lukewarm responses (if I'm not just called an SJW or some other slur).

Japan is basically stuck in the 1970s as far as female representation goes, and as far as I can tell it hasn't really improved at all in the twenty or so years that anime has been attempting to go mainstream outside Japan.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

The handling of female characters in anime is frustrating. Several pages back I asked for an anime that meets my definition of well-defined three-dimensional female characters and didn't receive any responses. I've also asked this question to other anime fans in the past and tend to get very lukewarm responses (if I'm not just called an SJW or some other slur).

Japan is basically stuck in the 1970s as far as female representation goes, and as far as I can tell it hasn't really improved at all in the twenty or so years that anime has been attempting to go mainstream outside Japan.

Chibi Maruko Chan is one of the most popular anime in Japan, and the protagonist is a little girl who's amazing.

EDIT: Also Sazae san is like a national treasure, but that's more of a glimpse into life in the 1950s, so she fits the role of a "traditional" Japanese house wife. Almost like a Marge Simpson type trope, but less uptight I guess.

 

[King Gilga]

Its hilarious that you're both wrong and comparing one of te most lauded and expensive series on tv with some nameless otakubait.
Basically you are comparing 'best' western tv to worst of anime and failing to be convincing. Lol

Got is overrated but even at it's worst it's still better than any anime show.

The only people who think anime shows are anywhere near the level of western live action are complete irredeemable weebs.

 

[BlackDoomShadow]

Chibi Maruko Chan is one of the most popular anime in Japan, and the protagonist is a little girl who's amazing.

My qualification was:

For me personally, I enjoy watching films and shows that feature strong female protagonists (or major supporting roles), a phrase that has been warped by male fandom to mean "kicks a lot of ass" but actually refers to women who are three-dimensional, multifaceted characters with realistic thoughts, feelings, and goals outside of just wanting to fuck a guy.

While I'm aware that there's a lot of anime with female protagonists or major supporting characters (even proportionally more than Western media), I still have trouble with these characters. Many of them are younger girls or teenagers which, as an adult, I'm not particularly interested in watching -- I would prefer adult characters, or at least older teenagers, with relatable problems.

Japan seems to have some sort of weird hang-up about portraying ordinary adult women as leading characters. It's always teenagers and little girls. It all ends up contributing to the atmosphere of sexualization and fetishization that makes people like me extremely uncomfortable about the medium.

 

[Aeternus Malum]

I, personally, didn’t like anime for a while either. Of course I watched DBZ as a kid and shit but all other anime seemed weird to me (maybe because the kids watching Naruto were weird and I didn’t wanna turn out like them)

But as an adult I just found anime films the same genre as live-action films I like (which are dramas) but without all the weird supernatural anime shit. AND IT HAD TO BE DUBBED

Started with Studio Ghibli’s Whisper of the Heart LOVED it. Watched Welcome to the NHK. LOVED it. Watched more Ghibli films that had supernatural anime shit i initially hated. LOVED THEM. Watched Death Note. LOVED it. Watching DB Super now. LOVE IT

If you really put the work in and find something you think you’ll enjoy and give it a chance, you’ll learn to respect it as a medium. Your Name. was the best movie I’ve aeen all year.

 

[Sakura]

this dude made it two episodes into Bebop and decided it was boring

what horrible fucking taste

That's because Bebop is boring.
Granted I at least gave it around 12 episodes myself.

 

[Cheesyhobo]

The handling of female characters in anime is frustrating. Several pages back I asked for an anime that meets my definition of well-defined three-dimensional female characters and didn't receive any responses. I've also asked this question to other anime fans in the past and tend to get very lukewarm responses (if I'm not just called an SJW or some other slur).

Japan is basically stuck in the 1970s as far as female representation goes, and as far as I can tell it hasn't really improved at all in the twenty or so years that anime has been attempting to go mainstream outside Japan.

The criticisms of anime as a misogynistic medium have always been bizarrely off-base to me. A huge proportion of anime fans are female - women are pretty much what keep the industry afloat these days since they purchase a significant amount of the physical media. Shoujo/josei specifically target a female audience and have female protagonists. Some of my favorite shows (Revolutionary Girl Utena, Seirei no Moribito, Saiunkoku Monogatari, Michiko & Hatchin) have flat-out feminist themes.

Yes, there are loads of anime fanservice/harem shows where women are sexualized, but guess what? The exact opposite is also true - there are plenty of male fanservice shows and reverse harems centered around a female. Everyone notices the former, but seems to inexplicably disregard the existence of the latter. The sexualization in anime is very equal-opportunity.

Got is overrated but even at it's worst it's still better than any anime show.

The only people who think anime shows are anywhere near the level of western live action are complete irredeemable weebs.

I highly doubt you're speaking from a position of experience with both mediums.

 

[BlackDoomShadow]

The criticisms of anime as a misogynistic medium have always been bizarrely off-base to me. A huge proportion of anime fans are female - women are pretty much what keep the industry afloat these days since they purchase most of the physical media. Shoujo/josei specifically target a female audience and have female protagonists. Some of my favorite shows (Seirei no Moribito, Saiunkoku Monogatari, Michiko & Hatchin) have flat-out feminist themes.

Yes, there are loads of anime fanservice/harem shows where women are sexualized, but guess what? The exact opposite is also true - there are plenty of male fanservice shows and reverse harems centered around a female. Everyone notices the former, but seems to inexplicably disregard the existence of the latter. The sexualization in anime is very equal-opportunity.

Obviously there are a lot of female anime fans in Japan, and a number in the West as well (although I'd say that in the West the numbers are heavily skewed towards men, but I don't know of any reliable statistics). I'm not Japanese so I don't feel qualified to discuss the issue, but it's pretty easy to note that Japan and the West have radically different histories and cultures around gender. Speaking simply as an American, I find myself off-put and uncomfortable with the way women are often portrayed in Japanese media.

Also, you are correct that "fanservice anime" for women exists and is popular. But this is also sort of my point, that for some reason a lot of (even most?) anime is made for some specific targeted or gendered audience. This is, again, a foreign or uncomfortable concept in the West. The idea that a show should be "for boys" or "for girls" is increasingly politically incorrect in Western media as we come to understand the damaging effects of forced gender roles. Why can't you make a show aimed at all audiences?

 

[Ratrat]

Anime arguments exclude Shoujo though. Ghibli as well as any other outliers.

 

[Lunaray]

Not even close.

I find it funny that out of the 6 points, this is the one you take exception to.

In fact, for the sake of getting it off my chest (har, har), let me list a few:

1. Breast Envy - I swear to all the gods at least 90% of anime will have at least one idiotic and insulting sequence of breast envy shoved somewhere in there and I fucking HATE it. Takes me out every time. (If it has it, it's usually not just once, either.) I especially hate how subversions of this stupid trope are so incredibly goddamn rare, because vulnerability and insecurity are "moe" or some shit, I dnno. All I know is I want to punch someone every time this happens. In the face. Because it's just plain rage-inducing.

2. Nonsensical sexy female outfits - Ubiquitous. At least 95% of anime. The 5% are either niche series or usually either kid's shows or have kids as protags. Even then, kid's shows (see: shounen) will have tons of this shit and it bothers the hell out of me. Look, I'm not stingy about this - if the guys get a ton of outfits that are equally stupid and impractical for the sexy, I'm not gonna complain. Unfortunately, this is simply not the case. It's extremely transparent what the aim is every time it happens, and it's always, ALWAYS heavily skewed towards one sex over the other.

3. Stupid voyeuristic camera angles on scantily clad women - Even in a show about cute girls making games, you have tons of this shit. Why? Why, gods? I just wanted to watch cute girls cutely making cute games and you have to throw this shit in my face? I mean, what the fuck, dude?

4. Female characters with zero self-awareness - Ubiquitous. (Are you sensing a trend yet? You should be.) I don't even want to address this one with any depth because, frankly, this is just terrible writing and everyone who's ever created a series that doesn't attempt to address this directly is wasting my time. It's a particularly important point because it's asymptomatic of the industry's general inability to write from life instead of tropey nonsense.

5. Lame generic self-insert male protags who magically attract women - GTFO. I don't watch series with these characters for very obvious reasons. Fortunately, that meant I got to skip the trainwreck that is SAO.

6. The hot spring / beach episode - I understand why they're there. I don't care. Stop with the cliches already. At the very least, something important and story-relevant has to happen here or it's just another stupid excuse for lame fanservice.

Anyway, enough ranting for now. I've gotta move on. It's just that I've been consuming stuff from Japan for so many years and, gods, so little has changed. It's depressing. I'm making myself sad just thinking about it. Why am I even here?

Spoiler

Just to suffer?

I just want to see them do better, man...

Hey I agree with a lot of this. The self-insert male protagonist has got to be the most insufferable trope. Thankfully, it's not as ubiquitous.

And for what it's worth, this thread had me look up the old MAL list I made years ago. Apparently I have 1200 hours on record. The actual number is probably double or triple that once you count the ones I dropped or don't remember watching. The last series I enjoyed greatly was Psycho-Pass in 2013, and aside from the odd movie now and then, I've also felt that the scene just hasn't evolved. So much of what's coming out is either derivative or inferior to the source material it draws from, and can't seem to move away from the same set of cliched tropes.

I think really, the critique I want to make is that since the turn of the millennium, I've seen a marked increase in the general quality of television programming, at least in the United States. New shows are constantly coming out that are pushing the envelope of what the medium can do in terms of content and depth. I wish I could say the same about anime.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

My qualification was:



Japan seems to have some sort of weird hang-up about portraying ordinary adult women as leading characters. It's always teenagers and little girls. It all ends up contributing to the atmosphere of sexualization and fetishization that makes people like me extremely uncomfortable about the medium.

Ok then see my edit about Sazae San.

And Chibi Maruko has three dimensional adult characters as well as Maruko and her friends.

Also, Crayon Shin Chan's mom, two aunts, grandma, teacher, and numerous other characters.

Nippon Mukashi-banashi, based on Japanese folklore. Each episode is a stand-alone story though, so the "protagonists" aren't just women.

I honestly haven't watched much anime since I was a child, but I bet there are tons of of them in Japan that haven't been released over here. It wouldn't make sense for there not to be, considering women consume a lot of media over there.

I find it funny that out of the 6 points, this is the one you take exception to.

None of those 6 points, aside from the hot spring thing I guess, apply to 90% of anime...you know, because A LOT of anime is for kids.

 

[Cheesyhobo]

The idea that a show should be "for boys" or "for girls" is increasingly politically incorrect in Western media as we come to understand the damaging effects of forced gender roles. Why can't you make a show aimed at all audiences?

As much of an anime fan as I am, I'm going to call a spade a spade. The majority of anime is intentionally produced to be the equivalent to Western YA or trashy genre fiction. I think most would agree that Western YA novels are also tailored to specifically appeal to one gender or the other, because these books are usually meant as escapist fantasy which will differ between the genders. You won't see many boys reading Twilight.

There are still plenty of anime that don't fit into these narrow categories and can appeal to anyone who simply enjoys quality, otherwise I wouldn't be an advocate of it.

 

[Haly]

The handling of female characters in anime is frustrating. Several pages back I asked for an anime that meets my definition of well-defined three-dimensional female characters and didn't receive any responses. I've also asked this question to other anime fans in the past and tend to get very lukewarm responses (if I'm not just called an SJW or some other slur).

Hourou Musuko, Sound Euphonium, Kuragehime, Michiko to Hatchin

Japan seems to have some sort of weird hang-up about portraying ordinary adult women as leading characters. It's always teenagers and little girls. It all ends up contributing to the atmosphere of sexualization and fetishization that makes people like me extremely uncomfortable about the medium.

No, it's just a problem anime has, because the older female demographic isn't really about mindless consumerism like the male demographic. The only exception here is the fujoshi demographic (yaoi fangirls) and they're not interested in stories about middle aged women at all. You're better served by manga in this field.

Shiori Experience (getting an anime iirc)

Shiori was once a guitarist in a light music club in high school but her first live performance was dashed when her brother ran away from home with a lot of debt, to become a musician in Tokyo.

A decade later, Shiori is now a high school teacher, leading a boring, uneventful life and paying off the debt... till she runs into the ghost of none other than famous guitarist Jimi Hendrix.

The story of a 27-year-old woman on her way to becoming a music legend begins here.

Sabishisugite Lesbian Fuzoku Ni Ikimashita Report

This is a compilation of manga essays originally published on Pixiv. It's the personal story of an aspiring mangaka: a 28-year-old college dropout who's led a lonesome, unfulfilling life and who has never had sex or even allowed herself to think about sex outside of reading BL. For many years she's been on the path to self-destruction until she realizes that she needs to begin truly living before it's too late. So, on a whim, she solicits the services of a female sex worker.

 

[RM8]

I think creepy sexualization of men being a thing makes things worse, not better. I know a grown ass woman here in Tokyo (she's not really my friend) who is into "Boy Love". When she described it to me I told her, "ah, gay stories", and she told me "no! it's not gay because they're not real". Honestly screw all this weirdness.

 

[Ratrat]

This is, again, a foreign or uncomfortable concept in the West. The idea that a show should be "for boys" or "for girls" is increasingly politically incorrect in Western media as we come to understand the damaging effects of forced gender roles. Why can't you make a show aimed at all audiences?

This isnt true at all. There are anime for all audiences and the majority of media even in the west tend to target different demographics.

 

[Haly]

Lol, fujoshi basically co-opted gay stories so much actual Japanese gays had to invent their own brand of gay porn to combat the fujoshi driven porn.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The West just has lower standards for Western works. Anime gets held to a harsher standard because aspects of it fly in the face of Western values, not because it is artistically worse. The amount of people who have recommended Ozark and the Marvel Defender's (or whatever) series to me is too damn high. Western media is, typically, not offensive to the Western palette which lets the flaws in it go under the radar.

For real now, I'm out. Unless Haly decides to start telling people about solo soliloquy or artistic artistry.

I very much disagree with this assessment. A lot of media has made their name on being about subject matter that a lot of people would be uncomfortable with. Hell the current trend in western media are protagonists who're terrible human beings but are empathetic enough to slightly excuse the things they do.