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Can a lifelong anime skeptic learn to love it?
- Thread starter Dr_LucienSanchez
- Start date
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Even the Dorne plotline of GoT has generally better acting than you'll find in anime. And again, still a way larger sense of tension during fight scenes even when everyone makes it out alive. Hell even when the nudity is gratuitous it serves a larger point and feels less out of place than underage schoolgirl panty shots.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Christ, why are these threads so predictable? So since I also didnt stick with cowboy bebop (for whatever reason), then I have bad taste as well? You certainly wouldnt be the first to tell me that in this thread, but Id say that might be kind of an issue in and of itself. All the bad taste and trash rhetoric doesnt particularly help the cause of the online anime community.
Like stumps post earlier though, its kind of indicative of a wider issue and both content and community.
See above. Although to be fair, there have been a few very good posts from people who clearly enjoy the medium but can also realize that critique of it it possible.
BlackDoomShadow
Member
The thing about being in a fandom is that if you want to get new people into it, you have to learn how to sell it. Something that I think anime fans have trouble with is selling people on it.
During this thread I've counted at least thirty different recommendations from a dozen different posters, with little agreement among any of them, something also documented in the OP article. Worse, several other posters have basically said that you should just sit around watching a dozen different shows until you "find something you like," as if grown adults have hundreds of hours to waste on a medium they've already told you they aren't hugely interested in. What if I walked into a Best Buy, told the salesperson that I don't know much about TVs and asked for a recommendation, and his response was "Dude, there are thousands of different types of TVs, just buy and return them until you find one you like"? I'd turn around and walk out.
If a time traveller from the 1800s appeared today and wanted to try one of them newfangled video games, a GAF recommendation thread would be similarly dense and incomprehensible, so instead we'd just recommend that they visit Metacritic's top games of all time and try a couple. There exists, as far as I can tell, no widely agreed-upon authoritative body like the Academy Awards or Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic to help an anime newcomer find something they might like.
(Further complicating the matter is the difficulty of actually legally getting anime in the United States, but that's a whole other can of worms)
So if I'm someone who has a passing interest in watching an anime, but not enough free time or interest to devote hundreds of hours to watching every random thing that someone on GAF suggests I might like, what am I supposed to do?
During this thread I've counted at least thirty different recommendations from a dozen different posters, with little agreement among any of them, something also documented in the OP article. Worse, several other posters have basically said that you should just sit around watching a dozen different shows until you "find something you like," as if grown adults have hundreds of hours to waste on a medium they've already told you they aren't hugely interested in. What if I walked into a Best Buy, told the salesperson that I don't know much about TVs and asked for a recommendation, and his response was "Dude, there are thousands of different types of TVs, just buy and return them until you find one you like"? I'd turn around and walk out.
If a time traveller from the 1800s appeared today and wanted to try one of them newfangled video games, a GAF recommendation thread would be similarly dense and incomprehensible, so instead we'd just recommend that they visit Metacritic's top games of all time and try a couple. There exists, as far as I can tell, no widely agreed-upon authoritative body like the Academy Awards or Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic to help an anime newcomer find something they might like.
(Further complicating the matter is the difficulty of actually legally getting anime in the United States, but that's a whole other can of worms)
So if I'm someone who has a passing interest in watching an anime, but not enough free time or interest to devote hundreds of hours to watching every random thing that someone on GAF suggests I might like, what am I supposed to do?
JoJo is better, now that I think about it.
Its hilarious that you're both wrong and comparing one of te most lauded and expensive series on tv with some nameless otakubait.
Basically you are comparing 'best' western tv to worst of anime and failing to be convincing. Lol
sans_pants
avec_pénis
it's the internet. if you say you don't like something, someone is going to call you a philistine.
bebop is like french new wave cinema. it's ok if you don't like it, but some snob is going to give you shit
Ryouji Gunblade
Member
If there's at least one cartoon that you love there's probably at least one anime you'd love.
It comes in all shapes and sizes. Just think about the genres of other media you enjoy.
It comes in all shapes and sizes. Just think about the genres of other media you enjoy.
I mean what is it with other people having to do anything about selling you? There are all manner of sources of what shows are available and worth watching from all different sorts of people from those into all kinds of stuff, those with specific tastes and so on. Its not hard to see what's worth watching if you don't want to deal with a lot of the more grating tropes for many or to avoid the shows with shitty Moe crap or poor depictions of whoever.
You make it seem like some insurmountable challenge but its not that hard at all and you don't need to deal with any crazed or in your face fans. I mean you talk about viewing anime legally in the US as if its some kind of challenge and its not hard at all these days with streaming apps like Crunchroll, Funimations, and so on. Most of which you can watch free with ads and update with new episodes of currently airing shows as well as having older shows.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Naw, recommendations aren't the problem. Every anime fan comes across this when trying to recommend: how do I sell the fanservice as not a big deal? You have to tip toe around and hope the person doesn't mind. Worst case scenario they think you're weird and never trust you again.
Velocity:Design:Comfort
Banned
What a condescending jerkoff author. Literally nothing they said gave me an inkling they have seen or read any Japanese media. Do they think Kappa Mikey or megas xlr or whatever are serious anime releases or something?
Shadowhelper
Banned
If something is good you don't have trouble selling it. You certainly don't need to sift through dozens of shows to find one that you might enjoy.
There's obviously something wrong with anime for it to be such a condemned and disregarded genre. It is aimed at young Japanese boys. It feels like most of it is made for some young imbeciles with a horrible melodrama aesthetic that you find in only the worst Asian movies.
I am not sure exactly why, but the dialogue is frequently atrocious. I think its something to do with the cultural differences in language, or perhaps merely poor translations, but I don't think so. Commonly the dialogue is just super fucking formal speak, like Death Note. or its odd in some other way. The dialogue in Death Note is unacceptably bad.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
This is accurate.
Melodramatic is huuuuuge. Miyazaki was right in saying the anime creators are full of fans. These folks don't seem to interact with anyone outside and then animate based off their own perception. They're trying to prop up My Hero Acadamia and it's full of this shit: who the fuck acts or relates to any of those kids? No one because they're not even remotely possible but you got lots of folks thinking they do.
Folks need to keep to animators who know what they're doing and stay away from the fandom creators.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
If you could find me anime with acting as good as GoT be my guest. Crazy thing is that out of all the top tier shows GoT is almost on the lower tier of the acting scale. That's how straight up ridiculous tv production has gotten in recent times. And just to bounce off what others are saying, there's not a metric mountain of caveats I have to tip toe around whenever I recommend a show compared to recommending an anime.
A lot of the writing isn't based on any sort of representation of reality so the conversations don't sound like human beings trying to have a conversation.
cryptosporidium
Member
One of my favourite directors in any medium.
Man since the rugby team got me back into anime in highschool ive been nonstop exploring the best it has to offer. GITS, Akira, CB, Baccano, Jin Rou, Steins Gate, GotF, its absolutely phenomenal. I especially dig the melancholic theme that is pervasive through Japanese art which I dont get much here.
Anime to me is like The Seatbelts, whereas Western stuff is like Snarky Puppy. Both do similar stuff but are so nuanced they cater to different desires of mine.
Also Berserk is the best dark fantasy thing there is hands down no contest. Listening to Susumu Hirasawa and reading Berserk is ecstasy
I like Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu as much as the next guy, but this is the kind of stuff that helps create the perception problem at the heart of the OP article.
It's nice that you try to sell Monogatari as some avant-garde Lynchian art piece, but most people are going to try it out, get to the minute-and-a-half long shot of a high school girl's panties in the opening scene, and check the fuck out right there. Or maybe they'll stick around for the part where the protagonist sexually assaults an elementary school girl (it's okay, she's a ghost), or they'll drop it where I did, when a middle-school girl bears her tits at the screen. And they'll be like, okay, anime is for degenerate weirdos, and who can blame them? Why should the viewer have to make excuses for what they watch when there's a massive ocean of fantastic media out there?
I have my fair share of shows I like that I can recommend other people without qualifiers. And there's usually enough good anime being made that you can watch a small handful of shows each year without feeling icky about it. But I totally get why most people don't bother. Acting like they're unreasonable about some of this stuff makes you seem really out of touch.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
If you go into any medium expecting half of it or more to be trash, not only will you be extremely critical of it compared to other mediums you aren't as critical to, but you also might go out of your way to find the trash to prove yourself right.
To this point, I can see why someone would drop Bebop or FMA a few episodes in just like how someone would drop Breaking Bad or House of Cards a few episodes in if they were a book only reader who was adverse to TV shows. They are heading into the experience with a chip on their shoulder, a general dislike towards the medium and its fandom, and a preconceived notion regardless of the difference in quality and subject matter between shows.
To this point, I can see why someone would drop Bebop or FMA a few episodes in just like how someone would drop Breaking Bad or House of Cards a few episodes in if they were a book only reader who was adverse to TV shows. They are heading into the experience with a chip on their shoulder, a general dislike towards the medium and its fandom, and a preconceived notion regardless of the difference in quality and subject matter between shows.
I remember a time when GoT was considered something you wouldnt watch with your parents. Times do change. I still wouldnt personally, while my mom will actually take us to see the new Yonebayashi film. Just shows how dumb this comparison is. And honestly, I rarely notice bad acting in anime as long as they use professional voice actors. Unless you are talking about English dubs. Because most of what I've heard is bad.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I mean you absolutely can watch it with your parents. Hell it's like one of the only things I talk to my stepfather about whenever I get the chance. And yea the general anime acting "style" with the overly melodramatic acting and lack of general naturalism with bad scripts is certainly pretty noticeable.
Dogtooth is a film about a family who is forced by their father to live at home away from society. The father brings home a security guard from his company for his son to have sex with, which leads the sheltered siblings into an incestual spiral of innocent depravity. It won multiple awards including Un Certain Regard section at Cannes 2009. It is icky but it is still doing something unique and is regarded as such.
But aside from any argument of that nature - which I don't really think is relevant to most people - I was never recommending Monogatari. We were discussing diversity in the medium, not what shows I think people should watch. I'm not selling Monogatari; I am saying what it is. The director himself has talked numerous times over his influences. In terms of diversity, I don't think anything in American media comes close. Given the numerous posts of actual suggestions labeled as such, I imagine that no one is going to be trawling my post looking for recommendations I am not giving. Far be it from me to have to cater to an unfortunate habit of people not to be able to combine the quote box and post into a single, cohesive thought.
How much Japanese do you speak? Because otherwise you are getting your script filtered into another language by who knows. Certainly not a screenwriter of any sort. Does that effect the end-user perception of what the script is? The knowledge of "Well, this might be better in the natural language", probably doesn't but if we are trying to make an objective comparison of quality it seems relevant. Unless we are again making a comparison between the featherweight anime shows and the heavyweights of modern television. Then sure. But your average (read: bad) anime is about as well-written as your average (read: bad) television series.
BlackDoomShadow
Member
Another thing, as an addendum to my earlier post, is that on the rare occasion you do learn about an anime that is unanimously acclaimed with critics, anime fans start insisting it's overrated and take a shit all over it, because they're desperate to preserve the niche status of their hobby while simultaneously wondering why it's not popular. A similar phenomenon existed in comic books for a long time, and to some extent still does.
So basically, anime fans tell me that I can't trust critics, but I also can't trust general audiences, so who the hell am I supposed to listen to for recommendations? We then circle back to the same refrain that half this thread is about: "Just start watching stuff and see if you like it."
Sorry, my time is too valuable for that.
So basically, anime fans tell me that I can't trust critics, but I also can't trust general audiences, so who the hell am I supposed to listen to for recommendations? We then circle back to the same refrain that half this thread is about: "Just start watching stuff and see if you like it."
Sorry, my time is too valuable for that.
This sounds familiar but I can't think of any recent example.
I do remember taking a massive dump on Ghost in the Shell (2017) though.
BlackDoomShadow
Member
Having heard so much about Your Name, I recently decided to watch it, but before doing so I mentioned the movie to some anime snobs I know and they all had the same reaction: it's overrated garbage and I should actually watch [insert list of a dozen different random anime films].
Thankfully, I decided to ignore their judgment and watch Your Name anyway, and I loved it. So all I learned from this debacle is that I can't trust these people to give me a good recommendation.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
None at all but a LOT of people on GAF who do can vouch for the idea that anime is certainly not very if at all representative of conversations you'd hear in Japan. Even with a language barrier there's a lot of common nuances among good actors regardless of language. Like I don't need to understand German to say that Pandora's Box is a great film.
So kind of like Disney and most animation in general?
Its a cartoon. Cartoons aiming at realism will use a more realistic style.
Interesting that something you cant confirm bothers you so much.
Also there is a colossal difference between conversations in something like Sazaesan and that MMO harem show with giant swords. You need to understand that.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
If you think naturalism is the only acceptable form of acting, then Japanese media in general will probably not appeal to you. Japanese live-action film and TV tends to be even less naturalistic than anime, ironically enough, as can be vividly seen by comparing live-action and animated adaptations of the same material, such as with Erased and The Great Passage. If you're going to be a fan of anime in general, you're going to need a tolerance for and ideally an enjoyment of melodrama to some degree. Personally, I feel like there can be good and bad melodrama just as there can be good and bad naturalism. When you've got a master of melodrama such as Osamu Dezaki at the helm, with a show such as Oniisama e, it can be very thrilling to watch.
That said, there are anime out there which aim at highly naturalistic acting, such as In This Corner of the World, Mushishi or Tsuki ga Kirei.
And neither is the dialogue in the Big Bang Theory or How I Met Your Mother. Japanese happens to have an absurd amount of variation in formality which is left at the door in anime. This is usually what people refer to when they are talking about it being a poor representation of the language. Along with the voice pitch and tonality generally being... like an anime.
And that is a space where there is room for improvement. But there is a slowly growing trend of more natural, drama-esque voice acting in the industry that will hopefully gain a foothold. Not to mention many anime films don't have this issue. Or most of the issues that plague the television space in Japan, for that matter.
I sincerely hope you aren't trying to bring one of the classic, silent films into a discussion about cross-language media.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
While I certainly get the preference towards natural-sounding conversations, your line of argument is akin to claiming that films are inherently better than theatre because nobody in stageplay actually talks like real people. It's just the general nature and draw of the medium, and not always true, anyway.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Do you watch Disney's animated films? Because Disney specifically puts as many relatable nuances in their acting, scripts, and animation as possible. To the point that they literally break the time period that their films are set in by making the characters talk like 21st century young adults instead of using old English or speaking in a language other than English. The same applies for a lot of western animation.
Mmm true it is a silent film at that.
Still an incredibly well acted film.
Read the edit.
I don't think naturalism is the only acceptable form of acting at all. Stylized acting can absolutely be fantastic. Hell film in general started with as theater inspired stylized acting that in a lot of cases still holds up today. Hell I can even enjoy Japanese films if the acting is actually good. Like Rashomon is a great film that is in no way heart by the stylization.
It's the fact that anime, (gotta love the quantity thing...) is more miss than hit when it comes to the melodrama, and seemingly acting in general.
Also a lot of those Ghibli films.
He hates anime and uses a bunch of flimsy ill-researched arguments to try and make it objective.
Looking at your post again, it's on me for not reading it closely enough. I got overzealous about trying to make a pet point, and took it out of context. I apologize.
I think when people talk about the lack of diversity in anime, they aren't necessarily talking about the artistic approach to presentation (some very talented artists work in anime, including on shows like Monogatari), but they're talking about the things the article's author mentioned when describing anime's "branding problem."
Sean O'Neal said:
I don't think these are particularly accurate descriptions of anime's contemporary tropes, but plenty of the stuff people recommend as "entry-level" anime are basically shows targeted at young teen boys starring young teen boys, frequently in a supernatural/sci-fi context. That's not necessarily to say these shows are bad, but your Death Notes, FMAs, and Attack on Titans have their own (different) set of tropes, sitting on top of an absolute deluge of light novel isekai trash.
There's a lot of interesting content if you go deeper, but I don't blame people for not bothering. Even when I think about some of my favorite shows of recent years (Mob Psycho, Flowers of Evil, Ping Pong), I could easily see someone just not being interested in the subject matter. It is what it is.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Again I never said that ALL dialogue or acting has to be naturalistic, both BBT and HIMYM are satirical and a lot of that is down to the acting and scripts being ridiculous.
Remember I'm talking specifically in the context of anime on television, not the films in which there is a lot of good work. Although to bounce off what someone else said above, a large thing seemingly holding anime in general back is that it's beholden to appealing to a niche fandom.
Read above what I said about how stylized acting or even melodrama isn't inherently bad. It can be quite good. But like I said, anime tends to miss the mark more often than hit the mark when it comes to nailing "believable" melodrama or stylized acting.
I hate a lot of things about anime, there's stuff I like, but to say I hate ALL anime would be an exaggeration.
Anime fans were super into Your Name when it came out, I think like most fandoms anime fans get really excited when a movie or series gets mainstream success or critical acclaim. Of course there are also the edgy snobs that hate when that happens because it means anime can reach beyond the usual niche fanbase which threatens them.
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
I hate people who single out anime. It's incredibly annoying to hear, and it's always the SAME reasons. I was an anime skeptic up until 2015. My first show was JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, loved the first two parts and continued on. People get turned off when they see something too out of their comfort zone and only see the worst it has to offer because the 'worst' is usually the most popular. And when you try to recommend stuff to them, they get incredibly stubborn and picky.
I wish the shows I liked reached mainstream status. I'm so happy for JoJo's success right now.
I wish the shows I liked reached mainstream status. I'm so happy for JoJo's success right now.
texhnolyze
Banned
Signed.
Yes. Between posting and making dinner, it occurred to me that the whole argument - while constructive - can ultimately be boiled down to to Kipling's, "Four-fifths of everybody's work must be bad. But the remnant is worth the trouble for its own sake." Japan has been home to some of the greatest director's of all time. Kurosawa and Ozu are frequently cited as influences on some of the best that cinema has to offer. You can catch a glimmer of that in the occasional anime series, but not if you try and hold the entire medium to a standard that is far above what we hold most other mass media to. Unfortunately, I have to go eat a bowl of chili and then go see the new Bladerunner for the second time.
Oh, that's because Shinkai is like the Marvel of anime films. All his films are cut out from the same template using the same framing, same art direction, same editing, same themes and same characters.
And the use of 80s/90s pop music.
That wasn't anime snobbery you encountered, that was film snobbery.
Youngfossil
Neo Member
Cowboy beebop and Samurai Champloo are like in my top 10 shows period animated or not. They are so good on so many levels and each episode stands alone on it own. They both hit some pretty serious themes as well...
Edit/Side note/PS:
2 episodes into CB doesnt even have most of the characters in it yet (my girl Ed for example). CB ending is like one of the best anime endings ever (of course IMO). it almost brought a tear to my eye. and thats saying a lot
Edit/Side note/PS:
2 episodes into CB doesnt even have most of the characters in it yet (my girl Ed for example). CB ending is like one of the best anime endings ever (of course IMO). it almost brought a tear to my eye. and thats saying a lot
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yea like someone else said, you can do a lot to spend your time watching other better media without the caveats and without the whole "the good stuff is incredibly few and far between compared to the west." If the standards of the creators are getting better and they make better shows, then you'd be hard pressed to want to dig through a lot of derivative shit to find the good stuff, when even streaming services like Netflix are straight up producing great shows at a very rapid rate. It's asking too much of the viewer.
I check my phone for two seconds for this abomination.
The West just has lower standards for Western works. Anime gets held to a harsher standard because aspects of it fly in the face of Western values, not because it is artistically worse. The amount of people who have recommended Ozark and the Marvel Defender's (or whatever) series to me is too damn high. Western media is, typically, not offensive to the Western palette which lets the flaws in it go under the radar.
For real now, I'm out. Unless Haly decides to start telling people about solo soliloquy or artistic artistry.
I'm sorry it's gone now.
Sorry, but I have yet to watch a single episode of it myself despite so many suggestions. He's right anime has a branding problem, and IMO a lot of it is bad.
I had people suggest SAO, Steins Gate, AOT, and dozens of others and they all disappointed. Not to mention when I got outside of those listed above, and into the other suggestions with less recognizable names like the Vampire one (forgot the name) and TLR (I'll admit I didn't watch this one in order, but I didn't feel I needed to in order to identify that it was trashy half naked teen girl filled garbage) all it really did was solidify that "image" of the average anime viewer in my eyes. The shit was terrible.
I may get around to Bebop, after all another one I watched was a 2 season recent anime (forgot the name) about cooks cooking food. And although it was yet another school setting (stop this shit please) I didn't hate it. I actually like it except for the fact that whenever someone in the show enjoyed a meal they basically orgasmed over it, lol.
Still that's a 1 and like 20 record so far. I don't feel like big anime fans have the high ground to assault my taste considering the shit that's going on in this particular branch of entertainment.