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Kotaku: (Cosmetic & Game-related) Loot Boxes Are Designed To Exploit Us

Falk

that puzzling face
Financially it makes more sense to target everyone and not whales. Whales are nice but game whales are not casino whales that spend $10k a night or $500k a night. Whale territory could mean $5k for that entire player's history with that single game. $5k isn't a lot over 3 years in the grand scheme. Game whales are more like cherries to put on top of that delicious cupcake.

Think it is important right now to delineate discussion of F2P games retail+lootbox. Since you responded to Gotchaye's post that specifically mentioned F2P games:

https://venturebeat.com/2016/03/23/...venue-comes-from-only-0-19-of-players-report/

The economy is pretty much still whale-centric. Unrelated to the article encouraging light spending anecdotally does seem to combat churn to a non-insignificant degree just because of attachment/brand loyalty to a game, but it's still quite a different precedent overall numbers game from the premise of a $60 game with lootboxes, since users who bought a game retail are already more likely to spend on gaming to begin with.
 
Well, the post I was replying to specifically said "all in-game items that are avaliable in a loot box". ;p

Well, yes, that's true, though with games with Steam Marketplace support you can buy pretty much anything, though the caveat, again, is that some items get expensive due to rarity. But if you want to spend a ton of money to get that super-fancy gold knife this guy doesn't want for some reason, at least you're not outright 'gambling' for it. Lots of people have actually made their money back selling stuff with value, or breaking down worthless crap into components to craft more valuable stuff.

I'd prefer no loot boxes, but TF2's system without the need for keys seems like the best type of "loot-box" system to me.
 
I think the question that isn't being asked enough is, what do we gain from lootboxes? And I'm asking this as a consumer. If your argument is "The developer and publisher can make more money this way", fine, that's a corporations side of the argument. But take your own side for a second here. What do you gain from loot boxes as a way to unlock content? What do you gain from "I will randomly get an item and maybe get what I want" vs. "I'm going to do this thing to unlock the specific thing I want" as a player?

Thats easy. It removes a grind to get a skin or cosmetic you want. Like take CoD Modern Warfare. In order to get a golden skin with a weapon, you had to unlock every other skin, and then do what, 500 headshots with it? Loot boxes let you have rewards without being good at a game. No more "get x headshots" with a weapon.
 

TheXbox

Member
For games like Overwatch, lootboxes are part of the player progression system, not a completely seperate system that has no links to any other part of the game.
By 'levelling' you get lootboxes. It is not inherently any different to a CoD progression system, except CoDs progression has 'gameplay affecting' static unlocks, and Overwatch has 'cosmetic' random unlocks.

The stickiness comes from the progression system.
I don't think Overwatch's progression system could possibly be any less meaningful. Leveling is a glacial process; rewards are undefined and often disappointing. The stick is too long and the carrot is too small. I'm sure Blizzard has a better idea of what drives their playerbase than I do, but I think competitive rankings and seasonal events play a much bigger role. And, again, Overwatch has that dripfeed of free, semi-regular updates.
 

carlsojo

Member
This is imo such a bullshit defeatist argument.. many people said this when Xbox One was going to be always online and required DRM checkins.

This bullshit only sticks if we as gamers let the publishers set the rules and regulations. Like an addict coming to his dealer, they decide all the rules.

I mean the difference is that loot crates have been in existence for years. This isn't some newfangled thing that came out of nowhere. They were implemented and people bought in en masse. You're going to see even more loot crates in the future.

Single player games used to get shitty multiplayer shoehorned in just so they could put that on the box. (See Dead Space 2) Now it's lootcrates that get shoehorned in. And why wouldn't they? They increase revenue. Shareholders are happy. Publishers are happy. Developers get funded for bigger games so they're happy.
 
I said this about dota 2 early on and basically got yelled at by fellow players because they said it's their money.

They're right definitely but that doesn't mean it isn't exploitative either.

Also I didn't lose 100s of dollars on cosmetic virtual items. So I guess I lost in the end.
 
Thats easy. It removes a grind to get a skin or cosmetic you want. Like take CoD Modern Warfare. In order to get a golden skin with a weapon, you had to unlock every other skin, and then do what, 500 headshots with it? Loot boxes let you have rewards without being good at a game. No more "get x headshots" with a weapon.

The problem is, in a loot box system you might not get that golden skin ever even if you do pay. At least with a goal-based system you'll get the skin eventually with certainty without needing to pay a dime.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
I said this about dota 2 early on and basically got yelled at by fellow players because they said it's their money.

They're right definitely but that doesn't mean it isn't exploitative either.

Also I didn't lose 100s of dollars on cosmetic virtual items. So I guess I lost in the end.

hey i made like 700bux selling two pudge hooks i somehow managed to get
 

Applebite

Member
Thats easy. It removes a grind to get a skin or cosmetic you want. Like take CoD Modern Warfare. In order to get a golden skin with a weapon, you had to unlock every other skin, and then do what, 500 headshots with it? Loot boxes let you have rewards without being good at a game. No more "get x headshots" with a weapon.

That's more a tradeoff that a gain. With some sort of challenge (it could be less time consuming than your CoD example), you are at least certain of what you're working towards. With a random system, you can potentially put hundreds of hours in without getting what you want. You might get rewards, yeah, but we all know those stickers and icons in Overwatch are useless and borderline unwanted.
 

LordRaptor

Member
I don't think Overwatch's progression system could possibly be any less meaningful. Leveling is a glacial process; rewards are undefined and often disappointing. The stick is too long and the carrot is too small. I'm sure Blizzard has a better idea of what drives their playerbase than I do, but I think competitive rankings and seasonal events play a much bigger role. And, again, Overwatch has that dripfeed of free, semi-regular updates.

The dripfeed of updates that need to be paid for by someone somewhere is somewhat tangential, because... the games that have RNG uncapped player spending tend to also have ongoing support, the games that sell specific DLCs as one off purchases.... tend to be one and done annual installments, so let's shelve that.

It seems obvious that for a multiplayer focussed game to maintain a critical mass that keeps it 'alive', it needs a progression system that players enjoy fulfilling.
You can argue whether that in itself is a good or bad thing, but market realities are that it is a necessity.
Just ask Lawbreakers.


So; is a 'good' progression system one that is fairly 'light' in consequence, and has no real demands on a player other than time spent playing the game?
Or is a 'good' progression system one that directly affects gameplay, and has specific criteria a player must be able to prove they are capable of before progressing?

An example of the first is OW. Levels are meaningless outside of showing you when you get a next 'goody bag'. 'Goody bags' provide no gameplay benefits. Anyone can get to whatever level they want.

An example of the second is CoD. Levels require specific tasks to be achieved, and if you cannot achieve those tasks, fuck you you;re staying where you are. The rewards for levelling have direct gameplay impact.
 

Arion

Member
Thats easy. It removes a grind to get a skin or cosmetic you want. Like take CoD Modern Warfare. In order to get a golden skin with a weapon, you had to unlock every other skin, and then do what, 500 headshots with it? Loot boxes let you have rewards without being good at a game. No more "get x headshots" with a weapon.

Wouldn't it be better to remove the random element all together. Instead of getting a loot box every time you level up with random stuff in it, you get a fixed sum of credit. Using that you can buy the specific stuff you want.
 
This is imo such a bullshit defeatist argument.. many people said this when Xbox One was going to be always online and required DRM checkins.

This bullshit only sticks if we as gamers let the publishers set the rules and regulations. Like an addict coming to his dealer, they decide all the rules.

Well, unlike the Xbox One, from what I can tell, the market has already accepted lootboxes. I'm doing my part by not buying games that have, to me, poor implementation of said lootboxes, which is why I'm not buying Battlefront 2 anymore despite being a fan of the series (new and old) and of Star Wars in general.

I speak out against them (when appropriate) here, I avoid games with bad implementation of lootboxes, hell I even encourage my friends to avoid said games. I'm not sure what else I can do.

Thats easy. It removes a grind to get a skin or cosmetic you want. Like take CoD Modern Warfare. In order to get a golden skin with a weapon, you had to unlock every other skin, and then do what, 500 headshots with it? Loot boxes let you have rewards without being good at a game. No more "get x headshots" with a weapon.

The same thing can be accomplished with direct sale of whatever cosmetic instead of rolling the dice with a lootbox however many times in hopes you might get it.
 
So, what if it had both loot boxes and the option to purchase stuff outright? You still wouldn't buy it?

If you can buy it outright, then chances are many other players will buy it outright. Lootboxes are the equivalent to grinding for drops in Diablo 3, except you can pay for a shortcut that cuts straight to the drop.

Well, having something be harder to unlock and more expensive to buy would make it more rare.

Plus, I think it's a pretty sad mindset that something is only good if other people don't have it.

Lots of players want to stand out from the crowd, what's wrong with that?
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
I get you want to support your game, but when players need to lie to themselves that's it's addicting them, then there's a huge underlying problem

Take Overwatch, most will buy Loot Boxes for events
Hey your money and if you cant put in time to grind, understandable to a point

When you spend $50 and complain you didn't get the thing you wanted or accumulate enough gold to purchase said item outright and others tell you why you didn't get it
You can just say Oh I don't mid, the games given me so much, it's just a "Tip" *triggered* to the Developers

Now developers are the service industry that we have to tip as thanks for making all these cosmetics and stuffing them in Loot boxes

Your lying to yourself and wasting dollars chasing a system which will never be in your favor.
Some learn it quick, some after getting diminished returns, some still dropping $50 like it's nothing and use "Tip" as their excuse.
 
People have been saying this when Valve started doing these things years back, but all the complaints got drowned out and the press didn't care either. Now everyone else is doing it and now everyone cares heh.
 
The problem is, in a loot box system you might not get that golden skin ever even if you do pay. At least with a goal-based system you'll get the skin eventually with certainty without needing to pay a dime.

Eventually you will, though. Either through racking up coins or through luck.
 
Thats easy. It removes a grind to get a skin or cosmetic you want. Like take CoD Modern Warfare. In order to get a golden skin with a weapon, you had to unlock every other skin, and then do what, 500 headshots with it? Loot boxes let you have rewards without being good at a game. No more "get x headshots" with a weapon.

My personal problem with those type rewards are that eventually everyone will/should have it meaning it instantly loses the "uniqueness".
Honestly COD could do more challenging tasks for higher tier rewards which would solve my nitpick with it but they stick to how they have always been.

I personally like having stuff you either got extremely lucky on or you were stupid enough to dump money into it till you got it.
Particularly in Black Ops 3 where there are so many doubles of characters on both sides.

It would be nice if they did stuff like 100 1shot-2kills or something challenges for high end rewards vs the x amount of headshots, etc which a serious player can knock out in a few days regardless.
 

Klotera

Member
Your point is that your hypothetical system where a game allows you to pick and choose specific piecemeal parts a la carte to allow you to pay the least minimum possible only for the specific parts you personally want is better than real life?

How is it hypothetical? That's how most games were doing micro transactions before loot boxes became popular.

It's why I keep citing SFV, that's how it works. You can grind in game credit to buy things or you can buy them with real money for a set price. I've purchased the season 1 pass, a stage, and a costume with real money for set prices. I've purchased a stage and a season 2 character with earned in-game credit (also at a set amount).

It's not better than real life, it matches real life. I don't buy a movie ticket and just hope that they give me a ticket to the movie I want to see. Oh, and the best movies are more rare.

Keep in mind, I've already paid $60 for these games. These are all add-on items.
 
My personal problem with those type rewards are that eventually everyone will/should have it meaning it instantly loses the "uniqueness".

Honestly COD could do more challenging tasks for higher tier rewards which would solve my nitpick with it but they stick to how they have always been.

Oh sure, its a reality of that system. But honestly I feel players care less about how many other people have that particular skin or item now a days.
 
So, what if it had both loot boxes and the option to purchase stuff outright? You still wouldn't buy it?

Me: I wouldn't buy Overwatch without loot boxes.
You: So you wouldn't buy it with loot boxes (and something else)?

I said it needed free loot boxes. Your scenario has them.
 

diablogod

Member
If you can buy it outright, then chances are many other players will buy it outright. Lootboxes are the equivalent to grinding for drops in Diablo 3, except you can pay for a shortcut that cuts straight to the drop.



Lots of players want to stand out from the crowd, what's wrong with that?

I agree with this part. I guess the problem I have is as soon as you monetize that addictive quality IMO it becomes unethical. You're monetizing addiction.
 
People have been saying this when Valve started doing these things years back, but all the complaints got drowned out and the press didn't care either. Now everyone else is doing it and now everyone cares heh.

Werent those all f2p games? Im not unreasonable, i dont think micro transactions are inherently bad, i think f2p is important part of this industry.

I have a problem specifically with loot crates, especially in premium games.
 

Nephrahim

Member
This is kind of scummy but I feel like this perspective only makes sense because we are "Used to" paying 50 dollars for a game and being done with it. These kinds of "Exploitative practices" go on in society every single day.

Even if we just limit it to gaming, obviously arcades and quarter hungry games have always been a thing. Games were designed to force you to spend money on them back then. But when we go beyond games, just about everything in our capitalist based society is designed around "Tricking" you into buying things that other people are making. FOOD is designed to want to get you to buy more food, for god's sake.

This is never going to go away, because it's the natural state of the world we live in. No ammount of pushback is going to overcome basic human nature.
 
Oh sure, its a reality of that system. But honestly I feel players care less about how many other people have that particular skin or item now a days.

I wish they would do a couple of the titles/emblem challenges for a few camo or uniforms.
That MW2 payback with C4 emblem challenge was probably my greatest since of accomplishment a COD can have.
 

Klotera

Member
Me: I wouldn't buy Overwatch without loot boxes.
You: So you wouldn't buy it with loot boxes (and something else)?

I said it needed free loot boxes. Your scenario has them.

Well, I just asked the question. And if that's your answer, great, I am totally cool with that scenario, also. In game earned loot boxes plus outright purchases.

If you can buy it outright, then chances are many other players will buy it outright. Lootboxes are the equivalent to grinding for drops in Diablo 3, except you can pay for a shortcut that cuts straight to the drop.



Lots of players want to stand out from the crowd, what's wrong with that?

So, make something harder to earn and it'll be more rare. Plus, it'll be a sign of accomplishment, not that you may or may not have gotten lucky with a loot box.

Also, if players are buying it outright, then doesn't that show that most players don't like loot boxes, going against the argument that they're a good thing?

I don't think you're paying for a shortcut if you have to gamble for it. You're paying for a chance at a shortcut. You're paying for a shortcut if you can buy the item you want outright.

Let me throw a new hypothetical scenario out there. What if you have loot boxes and outright purchases with a spin to address your concerns. The loot box is the same price as purchasing a common item, but you have the chance at better items. Uncommon or rare items go up in price by a percentage directly tied to their rarity. Would that be palatable? I don't love it, but it would be better than just loot boxes and seems like a compromise solution.
 

diablogod

Member
This is kind of scummy but I feel like this perspective only makes sense because we are "Used to" paying 50 dollars for a game and being done with it. These kinds of "Exploitative practices" go on in society every single day.

Even if we just limit it to gaming, obviously arcades and quarter hungry games have always been a thing. Games were designed to force you to spend money on them back then. But when we go beyond games, just about everything in our capitalist based society is designed around "Tricking" you into buying things that other people are making. FOOD is designed to want to get you to buy more food, for god's sake.

This is never going to go away, because it's the natural state of the world we live in. No ammount of pushback is going to overcome basic human nature.

I don't think it will go away, but I think if enough people push back on the issue we can at least get some things changed for the better. Clear labels displaying drop rates for item tiers, possible additional ESRB labels and ratings for games that have these kinds of systems in them, higher awareness for people and parents in general. I don't think it's to much to ask for considering most reports I've seen lately suggest stuff like this is insanely profitable for publishers and let's be honest, it's not like they are gonna be paying the developers any extra dough.
 
I mean the difference is that loot crates have been in existence for years. This isn't some newfangled thing that came out of nowhere. They were implemented and people bought in en masse. You're going to see even more loot crates in the future.

Single player games used to get shitty multiplayer shoehorned in just so they could put that on the box. (See Dead Space 2) Now it's lootcrates that get shoehorned in. And why wouldn't they? They increase revenue. Shareholders are happy. Publishers are happy. Developers get funded for bigger games so they're happy.

Except the people who play the games aren't happy. You know, the customer.
 
I agree with this part. I guess the problem I have is as soon as you monetize that addictive quality IMO it becomes unethical. You're monetizing addiction.

Or you can look at it as a way to level the field for players who can't devote as much time to grinding without devaluing the time spent by players who do choose to grind.
 

benzopil

Member
I get you want to support your game, but when players need to lie to themselves that's it's addicting them, then there's a huge underlying problem

Take Overwatch, most will buy Loot Boxes for events
Hey your money and if you cant put in time to grind, understandable to a point

When you spend $50 and complain you didn't get the thing you wanted or accumulate enough gold to purchase said item outright and others tell you why you didn't get it
You can just say Oh I don't mid, the games given me so much, it's just a "Tip" *triggered* to the Developers

Now developers are the service industry that we have to tip as thanks for making all these cosmetics and stuffing them in Loot boxes

Your lying to yourself and wasting dollars chasing a system which will never be in your favor.
Some learn it quick, some after getting diminished returns, some still dropping $50 like it's nothing and use "Tip" as their excuse.

If you care about skins in Overwatch, you probably play it often enough to have credits every time the event starts. I always have 5-6k to buy skins for my favorite heroes. Yes, I play this game a lot, but that's the reason why I care about skins -- I play the game and want to "look cool" in multiplayer.

If someone cares about skins but for some reason can't play right now (because of travel, work, hospital, whatever), he can pay if he doesn't have enough credits. I think it's fair but most people will disagree.
 
I don't think it will go away, but I think if enough people push back on the issue we can at least get some things changed for the better. Clear labels displaying drop rates for item tiers, possible additional ESRB labels and ratings for games that have these kinds of systems in them, higher awareness for people and parents in general. I don't think it's to much to ask for considering most reports I've seen lately suggest stuff like this is insanely profitable for publishers and let's be honest, it's not like they are gonna be paying the developers any extra dough.

Very well put. The reason why im so frustrated isnt just because loot boxes exist, its because the ESRB isnt doing anything.
 

nynt9

Member
Except the people who play the games aren't happy. You know, the customer.

I don’t know, man. People playing Overwatch seems to be really happy. The game is still going strong, still popular. It’s incredibly successful. So is Rocket League. So is Hearthstone. Or Fire Emblem Heroes. Even Shadow of War seems to be doing well by early indications. Seems like the people playing are mostly happy, and the unhappy ones are the ones complaining about not playing the game because it has loot boxes. So, the people who are unhappy are explicitly not customers.
 
Threads like these make me wonder how many astroturfers are hiding on GAF. Seriously, loot box apologists are rationalizing gambling for children, why else would someone rationalize that?
 

Afrodium

Banned
Every time I see someone say they spent $50 on Overwatch lootboxes during an event I assume that they probably can't afford to be spending $50 on lootboxes because they don't seem to be very good with money.

Lootboxes are fucked up because they're all around a terrible way to spend your money, meaning that they prey on people who make bad financial decisions.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Except the people who play the games aren't happy. You know, the customer.

They are though.
Like I said, this is a standard practice in the webgames space, in the PC space and in the mobile space, and has been making EA big money in the console space with FIFA FUT for just shy of a decade now.

Its only now that "real" games are seeing it introduced that the "real gamer" vocal minority are deciding its a big deal because its now in "their" games.

e:
Seriously, loot box apologists are rationalizing gambling for children, why else would someone rationalize that?

I don't know, why would someone call a thing that is not gambling in games that are by age rating alone clearly not aimed at children "gambling for children"?
 

Nephrahim

Member
I don't think it will go away, but I think if enough people push back on the issue we can at least get some things changed for the better. Clear labels displaying drop rates for item tiers, possible additional ESRB labels and ratings for games that have these kinds of systems in them, higher awareness for people and parents in general. I don't think it's to much to ask for considering most reports I've seen lately suggest stuff like this is insanely profitable for publishers and let's be honest, it's not like they are gonna be paying the developers any extra dough.

I agree, I feel like establishing drop rates is somthing that I hope we can get (As they already made that rule in china, and it helps a LOT with mobile games) And more awareness sure, but I don't think we can put the genie back on the bottle here. Loot boxes are here to stay.
 

nynt9

Member
Every time I see someone say they spent $50 on Overwatch lootboxes during an event I assume that they probably can't afford to be spending $50 on lootboxes because they don't seem to be very good with money.

Lootboxes are fucked up because they're all around a terrible way to spend your money, meaning that they prey on people who make bad financial decisions.

If someone spends $50 on lootboxes for a game they play all the time because they enjoy the output from the boxes, how is that different from them spending $60 to get a new game? Spending some money inside a game versus spending the same amount to purchase a game don’t seem too different if you enjoy the result as much.

I agree, I feel like establishing drop rates is somthing that I hope we can get (As they already made that rule in china, and it helps a LOT with mobile games) And more awareness sure, but I don't think we can put the genie back on the bottle here. Loot boxes are here to stay.

The thing is most of these games don’t have flat drop rates. The rate changes depending on factors, like the “pity timer”, where you’re more likely to get a legendary the longer you’ve gone without getting one. Or you’re less likely to get duplicates of the same legendary. There isn’t one single magical formula.
 

kirblar

Member
Every time I see someone say they spent $50 on Overwatch lootboxes during an event I assume that they probably can't afford to be spending $50 on lootboxes because they don't seem to be very good with money.

Lootboxes are fucked up because they're all around a terrible way to spend your money, meaning that they prey on people who make bad financial decisions.
You are making a very, very bad assumption.
 

Nephrahim

Member
Every time I see someone say they spent $50 on Overwatch lootboxes during an event I assume that they probably can't afford to be spending $50 on lootboxes because they don't seem to be very good with money.

Lootboxes are fucked up because they're all around a terrible way to spend your money, meaning that they prey on people who make bad financial decisions.

"I assume anyone who buys stupid things in games is too stupid to be making enough money to spend on games."

Uh, okay...
 

Nephrahim

Member
If someone spends $50 on lootboxes for a game they play all the time because they enjoy the output from the boxes, how is that different from them spending $60 to get a new game? Spending some money inside a game versus spending the same amount to purchase a game don’t seem too different if you enjoy the result as much.



The thing is most of these games don’t have flat drop rates. The rate changes depending on factors, like the “pity timer”, where you’re more likely to get a legendary the longer you’ve gone without getting one. Or you’re less likely to get duplicates of the same legendary. There isn’t one single magical formula.

You think so? I've always heard people speculating about this kind of thing, but is there evidence it's happening? I'd love to see it.

Since all Mobile games do have very firm drop rates, I assumed that these game did as well. It seems easier than trying to design some algorithm based on how much loot you got before.
 
The thing is most of these games don’t have flat drop rates. The rate changes depending on factors, like the “pity timer”, where you’re more likely to get a legendary the longer you’ve gone without getting one. Or you’re less likely to get duplicates of the same legendary. There isn’t one single magical formula.

They do it in china.
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
If you care about skins in Overwatch, you probably play it often enough to have credits every time the event starts. I always have 5-6k to buy skins for my favorite heroes. Yes, I play this game a lot, but that's the reason why I care about skins -- I play the game and want to "look cool" in multiplayer.

If someone cares about skins but for some reason can't play right now (because of travel, work, hospital, whatever), he can pay if he doesn't have enough credits. I think it's fair but most people will disagree.

I'm not saying anything is wrong, it's when you spend a lot of money for each event then complain not getting items
I'm sitting on 13,000+ Gold. Got most though just arcade Loot box grinding or just playing.
Never paid a dime


Like what do you expect and if there's any blowback, it's always, well my money was just a "Tip"

Like admit you do have a problem chasing after skins that you need to "catch them all"
 
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