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[Gestault]

Also there is some kind of (dynamic) tree shadows?

This clarification is something I had to explain a lot after the release of Forza 5:

Dynamic vs precalculated/baked shadows have nothing to do with the detail level, and it's technically impossible to know if a normal-looking shadow is one or the other. With just one photo, we simply couldn't know. Dynamic just refers to it responding to things in the scene changing, whether that's an object moving (which wouldn't happen with most trackside detail) or the light source moving (like the sun).

You can have really shitty or really good-looking shadows, whether they're precalc or dynamic. You can also have dynamic shadows with a lower refresh rate than the rest of the scene.

 

[potatohead]

This clarification is something I had to explain a lot after the release of Forza 5:

Dynamic vs precalculated/baked shadows have nothing to do with the detail level, and it's technically impossible to know if a normal-looking shadow is one or the other. With just one photo, we simply couldn't know. Dynamic just refers to it responding to things in the scene changing, whether that's an object moving (which wouldn't happen with most trackside detail) or the light source moving (like the sun).

You can have really shitty or really good-looking shadows, whether they're precalc or dynamic. You can also have dynamic shadows with a lower refresh rate than the rest of the scene.

Yeah this is a common misconception I think people keep coming as new fans so there's always new people who need to learn about what dynamic or realtime really means

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

It's pretty well known F7 doesn't have full transitions, nobody seemed to make a big deal about it before. If F7 had them T10 wouldn't have shut up about it during interviews.

 

[Space_nut]

This clarification is something I had to explain a lot after the release of Forza 5:

Dynamic vs precalculated/baked shadows have nothing to do with the detail level, and it's technically impossible to know if a normal-looking shadow is one or the other. With just one photo, we simply couldn't know. Dynamic just refers to it responding to things in the scene changing, whether that's an object moving (which wouldn't happen with most trackside detail) or the light source moving (like the sun).

You can have really shitty or really good-looking shadows, whether they're precalc or dynamic. You can also have dynamic shadows with a lower refresh rate than the rest of the scene.

Very good point

Gts the sun doesn't move, nothing in the track moves, not even clouds in the skybox moves

Do by standers even cast shadows if they move?

 

[dark10x]

So at least the shadows of the cars are dynamic?

Yes. All dynamic objects have real-time shadows in Forza and can draw shadows on themselves in approximation with the baked world shadows.

Dynamic vs precalculated/baked shadows have nothing to do with the detail level, and it's technically impossible to know if a normal-looking shadow is one or the other.

You can easily tell in motion, however.

The shadow cascade in GTS is tied to the camera position and exhibits noticeable artefacts. That's the downside to using fully real-time shadows.

I actually think Forza's method would be smarter for GTS. Although the shadows are baked, they are free of artefacts and the general wobbliness you get in GTS.

That said, I suspect using real-time shadows in GTS saves on storage since it's one less thing that needs to be saved off to disk.

Very good point

Gts the sun doesn't move, nothing in the track moves, not even clouds in the skybox moves

Do by standers even cast shadows if they move?

You can very easily see that they are real-time in motion. If you understand how shadows are rendered in games, it would be obvious.

World shadows were also real-time in GT5 and 6 but were very low-res as a result (and the sun DID move)

Forza 7 is weird in that the time of day can slightly change but shadows are static and do not adjust based on sun position. Some objects are even missing shadows this time in the bake for some reason.

Both solutions to shadows have pros and cons, though.

It's pretty well known F7 doesn't have full transitions, nobody seemed to make a big deal about it before.

Well, I just want to make sure that I showcase all of its best features in this video.

 

[KORNdoggy]

I actually think Forza's method would be smarter for GTS. Although the shadows are baked, they are free of artefacts and the general wobbliness you get in GTS.

i get the impression GT:S is going to get patched to have transitions between their current set times of day (i see no reason why they would use actual dynamic shadows otherwise)

 

[travisbickle]

i get the impression GT:S is going to get patched to have transitions between their current set times of day (i see no reason why they would use actual dynamic shadows otherwise)

Has anyone even tested it now?

You can set a 12 hour race in the arcade mode custom race.

 

[Synth]

i get the impression GT:S is going to get patched to have transitions between their current set times of day (i see no reason why they would use actual dynamic shadows otherwise)

As dark10x just suggested, storage would be a major reason. This is especially the case if you're going to allow the selection of many different times of day for each track.

 

[KORNdoggy]

As dark10x just suggested, storage would be a major reason. This is especially the case if you're going to allow the selection of many different times of day for each track.

do we know if the textures themselves are different for each TOD in GTS? have they baked the lighting but used real time shadows? or is it all one set of environment textures and the scenes are just lit differently to achieve the different times of day? if it's the latter then i definitely see no reason as to why they don't or won't have full day/night cycles at some point.

 

[JackAubrey]

There are cloud shadows in Forza 7 too. Though I haven't sat still to see if they move or not.

 

[KORNdoggy]

There are cloud shadows in Forza 7 too. Though I haven't sat still to see if they move or not.

that's tied into the weather. which is dynamic.

 

[dark10x]

There are cloud shadows in Forza 7 too. Though I haven't sat still to see if they move or not.

Yes, cloud shadows definitely move as part of the weather system!

 

[Synth]

do we know if the textures themselves are different for each TOD in GTS? have they baked the lighting but used real time shadows? or is it all one set of environment textures and the scenes are just lit differently to achieve the different times of day? if it's the latter then i definitely see no reason as to why they don't or won't have full day/night cycles at some point.

No idea how the textures are handled. I was only suggesting that performance isn't the only reason to opt against using a prebaked solution like Forza's. Even if you had no desire to have dynamic ToD (and there are many games where this is the case), you still wouldn't necessarily want to store all the various lighting condition you actually do want either.

 

[Gestault]

The moving cloud shadows on the ground really do help build up the scene "depth" in Forza 7, same as it has in other games.

 

[MaLDo]

Yes, cloud shadows definitely move as part of the weather system!

Clouds are videos so yes they "move".

 

[thelastword]

That's almost kinda of creepy.

The camera is moving and not the tree, besides, DC does have a Dynamic Weather and TOD...

Idk if i should keep posting these in here but I can't find anywhere else to post them... Here's another sound comparison.
Real life vs GTS vs AC vs PCars vs FM7 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXuv2tXHo9Q

Great video...I think GTS sounds best, PC2 and Forza 7 sounds worse overall, with PC2 taking bottom barrel....F7 does not sound too bad in cockpit view in comparison to PC2, so it comes out on top of PC2 here..

So it's like this in terms of best sound...

GTS
Asseto
Forza 7
PC2.

Graphically, GTS looks best, Asseto cars looks almost stylized here. PC2 cars follows GTS, reflections are great on PC2 cars...PC2 cars and lighting looks much better than Forza 7 and Asetto...So in car models and lighting..it's;

GTS
PC2
Forza 7
Asseto (prefer Asseto's lighting over Forza's though)

I'm pretty sure you can make time lapses, you just have to use the free cam in replay mode. Time progression is linked to race progression (kind of like NFS) so that's the best way to see it change in real time.

So what's the point? You know that could easily be injected into replays, it could even be faked into replays as well...

In any case, realtime tod has certain demands in the graphics pipeline with shadows+ et al, not withstanding if you also have dynamic weather too....wind, rain, snow, thunder+ lightning, hail....

Yeah, as you say, there's not really any truly believable dynamic TOD systems in games. Even Animal Crossing requires certain actions to trigger changes (enter/exit buildings).

Tying TOD to progression ensures a dynamic change throughout normal play and it's almost certainly done to reduce the performance-hit. Which is cruical for a game targeting 60FPS. It's an understandable "sacrifice" in this case.

What bothers me is that is doesn't effect every track the same way.

There are, at least, the best implementations carry a cost and are more authentic to the real thing. Comparing a game which has no dynamic TOD, thereby no dynamic shadows, a very iffy weather system, which is not dynamic either...You can't just make the statement that "which game has believeable dynamic systems", when there are games that have such a system.....Go watch some GT5 timelapses on youtube...

It's similar to saying those GTS cars aren't the real thing anyways, but when you compare them to PS2 cars in GT5 with no cockpit and you still say the same thing, that's just trying to belittle the games that did/do it better whether it's through better technology or ambition...

Personally, I think all the dynamic hooks are in GTS, but as I said, it comes at a cost, perhaps Kaz is trying to implement dynamic weather but he wants to ensure that he maintains a 60Hz refresh and also ensures that it looks good....and not just some random puddles placed each 20 meters or at specific areas on a track..

Also there is some kind of (dynamic) tree shadows?

Clue me in as to what this pic means and represents?

 

[Gestault]

Clouds are videos so yes they "move".

They're talking about the light and shadow projection on the terrain from the skybox.

 

[dark10x]

Clouds are videos so yes they "move".

Oh? The clouds are just video files? Are you sure of this? It just looked like flat layers to me.

That's very interesting, if true.

 

[KORNdoggy]

No idea how the textures are handled. I was only suggesting that performance isn't the only reason to opt against using a prebaked solution like Forza's. Even if you had no desire to have dynamic ToD (and there are many games where this is the case), you still wouldn't necessarily want to store all the various lighting condition you actually do want either.

i get that, my point was if they're storing texture changes for the entire environment anyway, then storing baked lighting wouldn't really add anything on top of that.

i would imagine 5 pre-calculated times of day takes up way more storage than one set of assets using real time lighting to create a dynamically changing day/night cycle.

so if GTS is essentially set up to have entirely dynamic lighting, but the sun simply doesn't move, then i see no reason they can't implement legit dynamic TOD by simply moving the sun?

if however they textures for each TOD are baked, and they simply use real time dynamic lighting for their shadows, then maybe a dynamic TOD system won't be so easily accomplished and they'd have to resort to something like forza, a kind of "blend" between 2 at most.

 

[TheAdmiester]

I think GTS sounds best, PC2 and Forza 7 sounds worse overall, with PC2 taking bottom barrel

Lol

Oh? The clouds are just video files? Are you sure of this? It just looked like flat layers to me.

That's very interesting, if true.

This article here has a *lot* of info on how it worked in FH3. It should hopefully answer any questions you might have: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...izon-3-game-perfect-skies-photorealism-detail

 

[rodrigolfp]

Right, and that gif is of Driveclub, which has real-time shadows that transitions as the time progresses. The shadows not moving with the rotating billboards doesn't mean it's baked.

Means it's baked for trees.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Means it's baked for trees.

No, otherwise as the time of day progresses, the tree shadows would stay in place.

This post sums it up well. Billboard tree leaves are constantly facing the camera, but there's also a second "pass" of them that's constantly facing the sun in order to draw the same shadow.

 

[KORNdoggy]

Means it's baked for trees.

surely if the shadows for trees were baked they would never move regardless of the TOD?

No, otherwise as the time of day progresses, the tree shadows would stay in place.

This post sums it up well. Billboard tree leaves are constantly facing the camera, but there's also a second "pass" of them that's constantly facing the sun in order to draw the same shadow.

exactly

 

[Tfault]

Means it's baked for trees.

Hmmm...to believe you or Paul Rustchysnky.

"There's no 2D crowds, there's no baked lighting; everything's real, everything's dynamic, every shadow is cast from a light source.

 

[rodrigolfp]

No, otherwise as the time of day progresses, the tree shadows would stay in place.

This post sums it up well. Billboard tree leaves are constantly facing the camera, but there's also a second "pass" of them that's constantly facing the sun in order to draw the same shadow.

If so than the shadows have the same shape no matter which position the tree is. Meaning i'ts an inaccurate shadow depending on the view angle and only correct while in one "default" angle.

 

[TheAdmiester]

If so than the shadows have the same shape no matter which position the tree is. Meaning i'ts an inaccurate shadow depending on the view angle and only correct while in one "default" angle.

Yes, it's incorrect based on the viewing angle, but otherwise there would be no shadows on the leaves, because if you're at an extreme angle to the sun while looking at the tree, all the sun would "see" is the 2D invisible "sides" of the billboard and no shadows would be cast.

It's not a perfect system but it's by far the lesser of two evils.

 

[dark10x]

Means it's baked for trees.

It is not baked for the trees as the tree shadows DO adjust with the sun position. DriveClub does have real-time time of day changes which happen even while sitting still. Tree shadows do adjust.

It just works as posted above - the trees shadows are based on the trees facing the sun as they do the player. The shadow position is calculated from the sun not the player camera.

 

[AndyD]

It is not baked for the trees as the tree shadows DO adjust with the sun position. DriveClub does have real-time time of day changes which happen even while sitting still. Tree shadows do adjust.

It just works as posted above - the trees shadows are based on the trees facing the sun as they do the player. The shadow position is calculated from the sun not the player camera.

I wish I could find that Driveclub gif someone made of the car sitting still and sun passing overhead and the shadows moving across.

You can see it here in part at :45 or so. Speed up play to 2x and it's more apparent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdEGj5MuJec

 

[rodrigolfp]

It is not baked for the trees as the tree shadows DO adjust with the sun position. DriveClub does have real-time time of day changes which happen even while sitting still. Tree shadows do adjust.

It just works as posted above - the trees shadows are based on the trees facing the sun as they do the player. The shadow position is calculated from the sun not the player camera.

So if 2 cars cast light at night on the same tree at very different angles, the tree will generate 2 shadows for each driver see but only one shadow will have accurate shape for each car (the car own casted shadow).

 

[Inf3cted_b3ast]

Lol



This article here has a *lot* of info on how it worked in FH3. It should hopefully answer any questions you might have: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...izon-3-game-perfect-skies-photorealism-detail

I think a combination of AC's shifting sound and GTS overall sound is the best. Forza for some reason is way too loud and PC2 just sounds weird.

 

[Fredrik]

Here you go, lol. (4k downsampled shots I took in-game (not photomode))

Holy crap this game looks sooo good
I'd love a 60fps patch on Xbox One X, but that won't ever happen. The games biggest problem on console for sure, everything else is top notch.

 

[Anarion07]

You can very easily see that they are real-time in motion. If you understand how shadows are rendered in games, it would be obvious.

You don't have to answer his questions, all he does is praising his beast Xbox One X that he can't wait to play it on with native 4k and high quality textures and being "concerned" about issues in GTS.

I can't wait for the final comparison video. Take your time and make it a long one!
Here's to hoping that 2016 LG OLED's YouTube will support HDR until then. Which I highly doubt.

 

[potatohead]

i get the impression GT:S is going to get patched to have transitions between their current set times of day (i see no reason why they would use actual dynamic shadows otherwise)

Storage space as he said is one benefit of realtime calculate

 

[c0de]

Storage space as he said is one benefit of realtime calculate

While this is arguable with a game weighing in at 60 gb with such content (IIRC).

 

[Noobcraft]

So what's the point? You know that could easily be injected into replays, it could even be faked into replays as well...

???

 

[Apex]

Very good point

Gts the sun doesn't move, nothing in the track moves, not even clouds in the skybox moves

Do by standers even cast shadows if they move?

 

[LostDonkey]

After spending some time with all three big games now- PC2, F7 and GTS, I have to say my favourite visually is PC2.

That's on PC as is F7. I just think the myriad of different situations it can present is fantastic and it really is a clean looking game.

 

[DD]

Here you go, lol. (4k downsampled shots I took in-game (not photomode))

Holy s**** these are BEAUTIFUL!

I have a bunch of old FH1 screenshots here on my computer. I'll upload them just for comparison's sake. The evolution is insane.

 

[Self_Destructive]

Forza Horizon 3 is the best overall looking and most fun racing game out of all of them! <3

 

[TheAdmiester]

If we're doing FH3 shots I might as well join in.

 

[Noobcraft]

I'm really looking forward to FH3 on the One X. It's a beautiful game.

 

[Inf3cted_b3ast]

Not a knock on FH3 (as it does look beautiful) but we're now ok with posting Photomode screenshots of a 30fps racer?(assuming the screenshots are on console)

 

[Noobcraft]

Not a knock on FH3 (as it does look beautiful) but we're now ok with posting Photomode screenshots of a 30fps racer?(assuming the screenshots are on console)

I mean DOF and lack of MB aside all of those shots are possible in game at 4k/60 fps on a PC (and hopefully 4k/30FPS on One X). There are plenty of gameplay screenshots of FH3 on the previous page.

 

[DD]

Forza Horizon 1, just for the lulz.

 

[Certinty]

Forza Horizon 1, just for the lulz.

Utterly ridiculous how good this game looked for its time. Part of me would say it was the best looking 360 game altogether.

 

[Noobcraft]

The map in FM1 is fantastic. The handling is really nice, the mountain roads are fun to navigate, and the visuals hold up fairly well. It's a shame it's delisted now due to licensing.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Had a go of making a gif of Horizon 3. Colour palette isn't great of course but I think it came out nicely.

 

[DD]

Utterly ridiculous how good this game looked for its time. Part of me would say it was the best looking 360 game altogether.

Yeah, and it's crazy to think that it took only two years to be made.

The map in FM1 is fantastic. The handling is really nice, the mountain roads are fun to navigate, and the visuals hold up fairly well. It's a shame it's delisted now due to licensing.

To be honest, I loved that rendition of Colorado, but I missed the sea, something that was fixed in FH2. Unfortunately I don't have a machine to run FH3, tho.

 

[Noobcraft]

To be honest, I loved that rendition of Colorado, but I missed the sea, something that was fixed in FH2. Unfortunately I don't have a machine to run FH3, tho.

You don't have a Win10 PC?

 

[DD]

You don't have a Win10 PC?

Not powerful enough. =/